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Running Aimlessly Down Under - From 54 to 53 sec 400m
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Weekly massage this evening followed by gym. Did all 13 exercises twice with the following changes:
1) Pull ups - 10 each time, up from 8 and 10 on Monday
2) Circuit upper body - 40.5lbs up from 35lbs (assuming the bar is 15lbs)Oregano_State wrote: »When I was running in my teens, this was a problem for me, I wasn't doing enough aerobic work in the winter, and this led to me having huge problems with running a heat and final in one day.
Even though I was regularly running 52.xx in one-off races, if it was a heat/final,, I'd take it as handy a I could in the final 150m to make the final, say 53 high, but no matter how easy I'd taken the heat, I don't think I ever ran faster in a final if it was on the same day. It was really infuriating, because the races that had heats were always the more important ones.
This was really brought home to me when I ran at the Scottish national (juvenile) indoors a few years back, the guy that won the 400m ran a heat, semi and final in the same day, all in 49.xx.
If you're in racing season Pisco, I wouldn't change massively, say do one 20min run a week, then build from there. But I do think aerobic base fitness is very very important!myflipflops wrote: »I'm intrigued by the track. How tight and slow is it? Is it only 200 meters?
45 second per 300 is 4 minute mile pace. I don't see how a bend on any outdoor track can make any difference over 300 especially as you presumably only run one of the bends.
If the track does make a difference then dump the watch and run off feel. You seem to be massively caught up on times and stats. Focus on working damn hard instead of hitting times and then analysing them.
You also seem to be aerobically lacking. 400 athletes need to be fit. David Gillick once ran a 4.32 mile leg in the Intervarsity road relays. He was/is incredibly fit. Well worth adding some 30 minute runs to your week.
Interesting discussion guys. Firstly looking at a time alone in isolation doesn’t tell much. It’s better to gauge my times against previous times under a similar environment (training environment with not the same level of adrenaline, with flats, on a particular track) and also against those who I train with. For example one day a few weeks back I did a 46-46-47 for 3x300. That same session our 50.1 second 400m runner managed his in 39-39-40. So he’s running at 52-53 second pace for just 300m, which is a pace a good bit slower than his PB. I don’t think this gives any indication that he couldn’t run a 52-53 second 400m in a race right now. He could probably do so with his eyes closed.
With regards the track I was chatting with our top 400m Hurdler who has a PB over 400 from a few years back of 50.01 and he said the track is so bad that he had to move his training to Box Hill as the bends were much too tight for hurdles.
I'm not sure I would agree I am aerobically lacking in terms of speed endurance. Last season I ran 58.6 off a wind assisted 26.9 for 200m and a very wind assisted 12.96 for 100m, so I think it's clear that my main issue is my top speed. I tend to finish strongly in 400m races. Again last Saturday I finished stronger than the 2 lads ahead of me, but I left myself way too much to do, not through lack of effort early on, but due to my current inability to get up to speed quickly. This is an area that requires focus. I don't see a great deal of benefit to me in running 20 minute long runs at this time of the year. I'll be doing 800m races over the coming months which will serves as a good aerobic workout.
With regards the heats and finals being in one weekend, I am a long long way off the stage where I need to worry about that. To make the B final of the State Championships I'd need a solid 51:xx, and to make the final of the Vic Country Championships I'd need a 53. These are the only events where there will be heats and finals during the season.
Interesting point about ditching the times, but for me I like to be able to track my progress. As I said above the times means nothing on their own and are only useful when compared to a similar session under similar training conditions. As for the analysing of the times well that's simply down to being a complete stats nerd, and that really is inbuilt into me.
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PB at 1/2 distance (for 10k used 5k etc) x 2 + (2.2 seconds per lap) and have used it many times and find it shockingly accurate and would be quite similar to your estimations (admittedly 400/800 would be the bottom end of the scale this works at)
On another note I have seen Gregan do 1.15/1.16 for 600m time trials in early season so gives you an indication of the kind of strength I am referring to (to compare would be similar to you running roughly 1.30 for 600m)
Yeah but Gregan is an animal. I ran against him once before in Nenagh at a juvenile competition, under 18/19 probably. Wasn't much of a race! He was just coming back after a year's injury and ran 48 seconds.
Hopefully I'll be able to put some decent 600m training runs in by around christmas. Have PLENTY of work to do in the meantime though...
ps Pisco, I've been reading through your log , looking at the interval type sessions you've been doing, and have decided to 'borrow' some of them. That's teh beauty of shared knowledge!! 0 -
Lads I dont agree with the 400 to 800 comparison. If ever there were 2 events more different it is those. My training partner is a 50.1 400m runner. What is his best 800m time? 2:08. I recall Claire Bergin (I think it was her but maybe it was one of the other relay runners) running a 2:12 800m at a Graded meet during the summer and she's a 53 runner. To be running 2:12 I'd need to be putting in mileage which wont benefit my 400.
Look at Michael Johnson. He could barely squeeze under 5 for a mile. Cant imagine his 800 would have been that great either. Didn't do him any harm.
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Pisco Sour wrote: »Lads I dont agree with the 400 to 800 comparison. If ever there were 2 events more different it is those. My training partner is a 50.1 400m runner. What is his best 800m time? 2:08. I recall Claire Bergin (I think it was her but maybe it was one of the other relay runners) running a 2:12 800m at a Graded meet during the summer and she's a 53 runner. To be running 2:12 I'd need to be putting in mileage which wont benefit my 400.
Look at Michael Johnson. He could barely squeeze under 5 for a mile. Cant imagine his 800 would have been that great either. Didn't do him any harm.
I really don't agree with you here. My cousin, who's a few years older than me has a 48.xx PB over 400m from when he was 18, and his 800m PB, from the same season is 1.56-high. He was on for a 1.53 coming into the final 100m apparently, but blew up.
Then you have the 800m WR holder, Rudisha, who can do a 45.5s 400m or something. And Sebastian coe took a year out from running 800m to do concentrate on his 400m speed. His PB was 46/47s I think.
A 400m runner would be expected to do 600m repeats in winter training, so I don't see how stretching that out to 800m should be a masive problem. Obviously it's not your main focus, but it should be within your capabilities.
Johnson is a bit of a special case, he was a very speed-based athlete, and really is incomparable to anyone I can think of. Look at his physique in comparison to the guys winning the 400m these days; he was beast.
That's just my opinion!0 -
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Pisco Sour wrote: »Lads I dont agree with the 400 to 800 comparison. If ever there were 2 events more different it is those. My training partner is a 50.1 400m runner. What is his best 800m time? 2:08. I recall Claire Bergin (I think it was her but maybe it was one of the other relay runners) running a 2:12 800m at a Graded meet during the summer and she's a 53 runner. To be running 2:12 I'd need to be putting in mileage which wont benefit my 400.
Look at Michael Johnson. He could barely squeeze under 5 for a mile. Cant imagine his 800 would have been that great either. Didn't do him any harm.
You are comparing these speed based runners of a 200/400 background to yourself despite the continued comments that your strength is one of your best weapons.
I am not saying that you have to race 400/800 but simply if this is going to be one of your strengths which you rely on you have to be...... well strong in that area.
I agree with you there are plenty of 200/400 runners who cannot translate a fast 800m.
Being that stats freak you are I figure you might enjoy these stats:
Puts it into perspective that you really can't hide from aerobic base. I know I am coming from a distance perspective but I think Clyde Harts approach is one more suited to strength based runners and would look to the likes of Wariner, Niall Tuohy or Alberto Juantorena as more direct comparisons0 -
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All interesting and valid points from the lads above.
I really do think though that you have plenty of aerobic ability/work done for the distance you are running, I mean its only 400m, a sprint distance, half of it (the first 200) is anerobic, the second half is mostly aerobic - I Remember Colin Jackson saying this during the olympics
Now I have only ran a 400 once as a relay on grass(61 aprox) so I dont have much experience and I have only done one complete season training for 100/200 but by purely doing speed work I ran a 32.8sec 250m interval a few weeks ago which would be 52.5 400 pace. I really do believe I could go under 55 for 400 with a months work of aerobic and speed endurance off the back of my speed which I developed with high intensity intervals and heavy lifting.
I have very little aerobic fitness/strength but it would be an interesting experiment to try and prove my point. ie approaching the 400 from a speed based training perspective.
Anyone can develope speed(to a point) its just a simple matter of getting more powerful. I know you said that the 100 is a very natural event and either you have it or you dont but you have not put the speed work in at the intensity required. With the approach you have taken all you are training your body to do is hold your speed for longer but no work is done on increasing your top speed or improving acceleration.
I remember my first 200 last year where I ran 26.3 and this guy went by me like a train on the inside lane to run 24.8 I remember saying to myself at the time, Jesus I could never have that natural speed., he was in a different league, but a season later I ran 24.08
To sum it up, if you want a shortcut to that 56 400, get your 200 down to 25, a very achievable time for you.
Now I know you are only 26/27 years of age and you may be in no hurry, so the aerobic/endurance approach may suit you(you also may enjoy it more) and it may get you there over the next few seasons but the power/speed approach will get you there (a 56 400) quicker me thinks !0 -
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59.24 seconds for 400m today at the first round of the AV Shield. My 3rd fastest time ever, 0.56 off my PB and just 0.06 off my 2nd fastest time. Pretty delighted as I didn't run that fast last year until the 2nd last race of the season. Will certainly take that time this early in the season! Happy to see some sort of results from 5 months of hard work. Maybe, just maybe, at the next 400m race in 2 weeks time there might be a cheeky PB in it for me.
Earlier in the day I ran 13.35 for 100m. Don't know what the wind was yet but I think it was a headwind. Pretty happy to be honest. My PB of 12.96 is skewed by the fact I had a +4.3 tail wind. Today's performance is my best ever non-hand timed, non wind assisted 100m. Hopefully I can take that down over the course of the season. I need to.
Race report to follow tomorrow. A lot to talk about.0 -
The long wait is over. The AV Shield is back. Run by Athletics Victoria the AV Shield is the premier inter-club athletics championships in Victoria, the equivalent to Ireland's National League. The competition is divided into 6 regions (3 of these located in the Melbourne Metro region, one in Ballarat, one in Bendigo and one in Geelong). Each region has 12 rounds of competition between now and February, and numerous divisions, including 3 for men, 2 for women, one for junior and one for masters. My club Richmond are in division 2 of the East region. In our division the top 4 from each club score points in all non-hurdle track races (its top 6 in division 1), with the top 2 scoring points in hurdle and field events. At the end of each round the points are added up and the clubs in each division are ranked based on these points and ladder points are awarded based on the clubs position at the end of that round. After 12 rounds of this, the top 2 clubs in each division qualify for the Shield Final in mid February against the top teams from all the other regions where 4 athletes from each club in our division (6 in division 1) will be chosen for each track event and 2 for field events. It's a great setup and it allows everybody to play a part in a club's success. No such thing as just 1 person representing your club per event like you see in Ireland. The points thing is a bit complex but one would hope that the guys who run this know what they are doing in that regard.
I got to the track early (around 12.45) due to getting a lift out to Box Hill so had a lot of sitting around which was a little tedious. I was only competing in 2 events, the 100m and 400m. The 100m was due to start just before 3pm and the 400m after 5pm.
The weather at this stage looked pretty nice. Sun was out, mixed with black clouds lurking creepily in the distance. When the sun was out it was warm. When it wasn't it got nippy. It would rain. Then it would shine. Then overcast, then more rain, then more sun. One of those typical Irish "make up your mind days" which October time Melbourne is so known for.
100m:
I had finished my breakfast at around 10am, and had a banana at around 1:30, but as the 100m starting to become more and more delayed, I realised I hadn't planned my race day eating very well. I felt hungry going into my race. But it was too late now to do anything about it, so my thoughts were, to shut it out, drink plenty of water to stave off the hunger, then eat immediately after the race, giving me enough time to digest it in time for my 400m.
Just as my race was about to start the sun came back out. There were 6 in my race, including a club mate of mine who has gone sub 13 last season, and a friend of mine from Collingwood who would normally be low to mid 12. The other 3 guys I knew nothing about, and as it turned out they didn't seem to know much about themselves either. Why sub 12 second runners chose to run in races with 12.5 to 13 guys I will never understand!!
The gun went off, and I was slow out of the blocks. Maybe I wasn't but it felt damn slow as these sub 12 guys stormed off like rollercoasters. I picked up the pace nicely from 40m on and at this stage it was always going to be a battle for 2nd last between me and my club mate. Started to get a bit untidy from 60m-80m. Hard to fully explain it but I felt a bit messy, but held the pace and finished nicely to easily beat my club mate, and finish only a few metres down on my friend from Collingwood. Definitely closer to him than I was in the 100m last week.
My time was 13.35 electronically timed, which was about 0.3 ahead of my club mate and about 0.6 down on the lad from Collingwood. The wind was -1.4. The 100m is a funny one as due to having so many hand times and wind assisted times it's hard to know what my true PB is. What I can say is that this run was my fastest non hand timed, non wind assisted 100m ever. Adjusting my timed to a 0 wind it is 13.19, while adjusting my 12.96 with a +4.3 to 0 it comes out as 13.25 on those wind adjustment calculators. I have to say I am pretty happy with this run. It's early in the season and I am at the level I was at the end of last season in the 100m, so hopefully I can kick on from here and legally get under 13 seconds over the coming weeks/months.
400m:
Quickly ate some lunch. Then there was that ridiculous worry that I ate too much so off I went for a walk to burn a small bit of it off. A prime example of thinking too much about small details. Anyway, warm up for the 400m proved to be a bit more of a pain in the ass than it was for the 100m as in 45 minutes leading up to my race the track was being used for 4x100m relays and women's 400m, so I was constantly hopping off and back onto the track between races. Lesson learnt, start warming up earlier next time. I didn't feel like I had done enough of a warm up entering my race and there was quite a bit of standing around before the race. By this stage the rain had given another light dusting, and the sun was hopping in and out at 2 minute intervals. I gave up thinking about the weather at this stage (it's torture looking at the sky in Melbourne). Zero control over it.
My last 5 400m races have been in the outside lanes, so I was delighted to get lane 2 this time. It gave me a nice view of the field, but avoided the tightness of lane 1. I was in the 6th of around 11 men's races. I didn't look to see who was in my race. Normally I would but on this occasion I didn't bother. My nerves were gone at this stage and I didn't want anything extra to think about. The sitting around all day waiting for my event, the very last on the programme is tough, but that's just the way it is, and will be thoughout the year.
However, a 16 year old lad from Collingwood was in lane 3 and he came up to me asking what pace would I be running at, as he hoped I'd be a makeshift rabbit for him to get him around to a sub 60. He ran an 800m PB of 2:19 last week, and a nice 1500m PB of 4:49 an hour or so earlier and felt having previously run 61 he was in the shape to go under 60. I had my private doubts that he was at this level yet, but regardless I was delighted he was in the lane outside me as it gave me somebody to chase.
With so many heats there was no chance to do a few strides from the blocks like you do at championships events. One race over, get the next one started is how it is run. So no chance to get the blood flowing a bit, and straight into the blocks I went. Gun went off, and I flew out. Felt like a very nice start and I could feel myself catching the guy outside me very quickly and after about 120m I was right up on him. Either I was going out like a train or he overestimated his 400m shape. (it was the latter as he finished in 61.99) However at around this point the guy in lane 1 came up on me and passed me, while it took another 40 metres or so before I properly went past the guy outside me as I cruised down the back straight at a healthy pace. With 200m to go I pushed all out and lengthened the stride and felt good. I was catching the lad in lane 1. Then out of nowhere with 130m to go I feel a spasm sensation in my right calf. WTF!! It wasn't sore and only lasted about 10-20m but for a brief half second I thought that it was game over, but I kept running and I was fine and I was able to continue the race to my full ability. However the last 100m was a complete blur as a result. In a twisted way this calf thing made me forget about the toughness of that last 100m. I passed the guy in lane 1 at some point in the last 100m and I closed on another guy but besides that I can't remember much.
Absolutely exhausted afterwards. Dizzy. But no pain or anything in the calf. One of my coaches timed me at 58.9, and a few minutes later my result was confirmed as a very pleasing 59.24 seconds, my 6th sub 60, my 3rd fastest time ever, and faster than anything I achieved last year right up until the second last race of the season. At this time of year I certainly aint going to say no to a result like that. Delighted.
However, the calf thing has played on my mind. I've got that sensation before in training, but always in the other calf, always not until after 4-5 reps, and not once in the last 6 weeks. It cant be cramp as cramp would be painful. It could be a minor calf strain but again that would surely have some symptoms of pain. I asked the question on letsrun and some guy said it sounds like a muscle spasm in the calf. I think my warm up could have been a problem. 400m are a bit of a nightmare in the AV Shield as you need to crowd around the guy giving out the lanes for each race to get yourself into a certain race. The races come thick and fast then so you dont have much time to get warmed back up again. There's no time to do a few strides out of the blocks like you have at championships. I'll just have to make sure to be extra warmed up and well stretched in the calf area next time, if indeed that is the problem.
Another thing which was pleasing was that I beat one of my training partners over 400m, our former 10.6 second guy. He only ran 60.4 or something. He ran a 100m earlier in the day in 12.01 with a -1.4 wind. But he is no 400m runner and died in the last 100m. Really goes to show that raw speed doesn't always equal good 400m performances.
Next weekend is Round 2 at Doncaster where I will have a 200m and 800m to negotiate.0 -
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That looks like a more sprint-focused weights plan, good stuff.
On the subject of rocking back and forth during pull-ups, that usually happens when you do them quickly. Your centre of gravity doesn't move in a straight line during pull-ups and that's what causes the rocking.
If you slow down the movement and pause at the bottom when your elbows are locked out, it should help stop this. It makes the excercise more difficult too, but sure the harder it is, the more benefit you get from it.
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