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Running Aimlessly Down Under - From 54 to 53 sec 400m

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    ecoli wrote: »
    I think it is a good point but I am not quite sure that it goes against what people (me included) were saying.

    I think it is more the advice about going for 5km runs (which has cropped up quite a bit at random points over the last year) that it goes against. IMO 5km runs are just junk miles for sprinters.

    Not quite sure what I'll do at the weekend. I'd feel bad starting a race and not running it properly. In any case the 200m is on first on Saturday and that will be my main focus.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,290 ✭✭✭Oregano_State


    I have to disagree with you about long runs. At your stage of the season yes maybe, they'd be disruptive, but long runs during the winter can give you a good base fitness to work off, to allow you to complete more high quality, high intensity training in the rest of the season.

    I was googling training plans yesterday came across this plan for 200m/400m. As far as I gather it is a training plan written as part of an assesment of a college course, based on training a pretty talented college athlete in the US for one season.

    As you can see in October-December, all he had the athlete do was 3-5 mile runs to build base fitness. Now this guy was already really fit and fast, as a 48.30s 400m and 21.80s 200m show, but he improved both his fitness and speed in the season shown and reached both his targets, despite only doing slow running for 3 months.


    (see pdf attachment) :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    5x150m off 5 minute recovery today at a hard pace unlike last Thursday when I did them at around 22.5 second pace. Legs were feeling heavy this evening and in the 5th rep I got that blasted muscle spasm half way through so I stopped. This time it was in the left calf. Perhaps muscle fatigue in this case. My times were:

    21(low) - 21(low) - 21(mid) - 21(low) - DNF

    Happy with the consistency there. Now it's time to rest up before Saturday's races. Really don't know what to expect. Would hope that I will run faster in both the 200m and 800m than I did in Irishtown in early August. On that occasion I ran 27.32 into a -1.2 headwind (around 27.20 with a 0 wind) and 2:30.5 for the 800m in racing flats. I'll be running in the flats again for the 800 on Saturday. I ran all my 800s in sprint spikes last year which in hindsight was insanity! I don't own middle distance spikes and I don't see any real value in forking out 150 blips for a pair for the sake of 4 or so 800m races during the season. I guess I will be giving away 2 seconds each race because of this but as the 800 is not the focus I can live with that. Rather go 2 seconds slower than risk an injury running in sprint spikes.

    I was thinking earlier today about my drop off in times from 400 to 800 (though the percentage drop off is not different to many 400 runners, so I don't see it as a huge issue) and one reason for this I think is my running style over both events. Basically I have trained myself to run on the balls of my feet for all the sprint events. I can do this up to 400m. However I am not able to do this for 800m so I end up running the event is a different manner, flat footing at best, and most probably heel striking, something which is bound to slow one down. Distance runners are trained at running for long periods on the balls of their feet. I am not.
    I have to disagree with you about long runs. At your stage of the season yes maybe, they'd be disruptive, but long runs during the winter can give you a good base fitness to work off, to allow you to complete more high quality, high intensity training in the rest of the season.

    I was googling training plans yesterday came across this plan for 200m/400m. As far as I gather it is a training plan written as part of an assesment of a college course, based on training a pretty talented college athlete in the US for one season.

    As you can see in October-December, all he had the athlete do was 3-5 mile runs to build base fitness. Now this guy was already really fit and fast, as a 48.30s 400m and 21.80s 200m show, but he improved both his fitness and speed in the season shown and reached both his targets, despite only doing slow running for 3 months.


    (see pdf attachment) :)

    It's interesting, but what works for one doesn't work for everyone. Our 50.1 guy did a 5km runs during his 4 week break but once we got started on winter training he cut them. He was doing the same sessions as me through the winter (hills on Tuesday, track on Thursday, 2 days gym) but also did 60s at the weekend along with jumps and stuff like that. He ran last weekend 51.18 for 400m which I believe is his fastest season opener ever, and that is off an average in comparison 11.98 100m earlier in the day. I guess we can look at it from a lot of different angles but one thing we probably will agree on is that the 400m is quite a unique event in that you can excel at it without being great over 100/200 and without being great over 800.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 920 ✭✭✭RandyMann


    Now this guy was already really fit and fast, as a 48.30s 400m and 21.80s 200m show

    Hey Oregano, if I can use the above regarding that the athlete was already fit and fast. It is a very valid point in relation to Pisco.
    I mean Pisco does not have the raw speed as of yet and IMO he wont get that from doing 3-5km runs. If he had the raw speed, then the above approach would probably help him, but the above approach/program is not really relative to Pisco and his current ability.
    If you work in reverse on athletic ability, you dont have reasonable 800m runners moving down to 400m and become more successful. You normally have reasonable 400m athletes moving up to 800m and becoming more competitive. Same as a reasonable100m/200m moving up to 400 and achieving more success.
    If I were Pisco :), I would spend a couple of seasons developing my 100/200 speed(leave the 400 alone) and then go up to 400. It would be a natural progression. I see it with the juveniles in my club, including my two daughters. They train the children in developing speed and technique and then there is a natural progression into what ever distance best fits the athlete's ability. I mean Pisco may not be very competitive as a 100/200 athlete and he knows this himself but there is certainly room for improvement there to eventually use it as a 400m athlete.
    If Pisco stays around 27sec 200 ability, he would want to have fantastic speed endurance/aerobic capacity to run a 56 400. I mean thats only a 2 second drop off. It doesnt give him much to play with.
    There is a 400m juvenile athlete in my club that I sometimes do intervals with and he has a recent 24.18 200 time but his 400 is 51.XX and his 800 is 2:01 It means that even with his high level of aerobic fitness, he still loses 3 seconds plus in his 400m. Pisco at his best last year had about a 4 second drop off when he ran a 58 and a high 26 200. If he improves that to a 3 second drop off he is still running 57 seconds. This is why I was saying it was important for him to work on his 100/200(especially his 200)
    I am not directing this post at just yourself Oregano, it is open to everyone for conjecture/argument ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    RandyMann wrote: »
    Hey Oregano, if I can use the above regarding that the athlete was already fit and fast. It is a very valid point in relation to Pisco.
    I mean Pisco does not have the raw speed as of yet and IMO he wont get that from doing 3-5km runs. If he had the raw speed, then the above approach would probably help him, but the above approach/program is not really relative to Pisco and his current ability.
    If you work in reverse on athletic ability, you dont have reasonable 800m runners moving down to 400m and become more successful. You normally have reasonable 400m athletes moving up to 800m and becoming more competitive. Same as a reasonable100m/200m moving up to 400 and achieving more success.
    If I were Pisco :), I would spend a couple of seasons developing my 100/200 speed(leave the 400 alone) and then go up to 400. It would be a natural progression. I see it with the juveniles in my club, including my two daughters. They train the children in developing speed and technique and then there is a natural progression into what ever distance best fits the athlete's ability. I mean Pisco may not be very competitive as a 100/200 athlete and he knows this himself but there is certainly room for improvement there to eventually use it as a 400m athlete.
    If Pisco stays around 27sec 200 ability, he would want to have fantastic speed endurance/aerobic capacity to run a 56 400. I mean thats only a 2 second drop off. It doesnt give him much to play with.
    There is a 400m juvenile athlete in my club that I sometimes do intervals with and he has a recent 24.18 200 time but his 400 is 51.XX and his 800 is 2:01 It means that even with his high level of aerobic fitness, he still loses 3 seconds plus in his 400m. Pisco at his best last year had about a 4 second drop off when he ran a 58 and a high 26 200. If he improves that to a 3 second drop off he is still running 57 seconds. This is why I was saying it was important for him to work on his 100/200(especially his 200)
    I am not directing this post at just yourself Oregano, it is open to everyone for conjecture/argument ;)

    I agree with most of what you say (except for giving up the 400 for a few years, as I enjoy the distance a lot so no chance of that happening :)). But you needn't worry, I'm confident I can get down to a low 26 this season. After all, the season is long and we haven't hit any of the proper speed work yet. The coach wants us peaking in March for State Championships. With a 26 low 200m I believe my good speed endurance can take well into the 56 range.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 920 ✭✭✭RandyMann


    Pisco Sour wrote: »
    I agree with most of what you say (except for giving up the 400 for a few years, as I enjoy the distance a lot so no chance of that happening :)). But you needn't worry, I'm confident I can get down to a low 26 this season. After all, the season is long and we haven't hit any of the proper speed work yet. The coach wants us peaking in March for State Championships. With a 26 low 200m I believe my good speed endurance can take well into the 56 range.

    Dont get me wrong, dont give up what you enjoy, sure if that was the case I would be running 400 also ;)
    Yes a low 26 200 will have you breaking the 57 400 barrier, no doubt IMO


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    RandyMann wrote: »
    Dont get me wrong, dont give up what you enjoy, sure if that was the case I would be running 400 also ;)
    Yes a low 26 200 will have you breaking the 57 400 barrier, no doubt IMO

    I think my 100 at the weekend was encouraging. Sure it was nothing special, but adjusting for a wind of 0 (the best way of comparing as wind has too much of an influence over 100 and 200) I ran a 13.19, which is probably my best 100 ever. This was in the first race of the season (well the 2nd to be precise but the previous week was a joke with completely random hand times which didn't give any sort of a reflection on what was going on).

    Ideally I'd like to run a wind adjusted PB on Saturday over 200m to start the season off. I do think my 100 and 200 speed has actually gotten better (even though we haven't got into proper speed work yet) probably from getting stronger in the gym.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 920 ✭✭✭RandyMann


    Pisco Sour wrote: »
    I think my 100 at the weekend was encouraging. Sure it was nothing special, but adjusting for a wind of 0 (the best way of comparing as wind has too much of an influence over 100 and 200) I ran a 13.19, which is probably my best 100 ever. This was in the first race of the season (well the 2nd to be precise but the previous week was a joke with completely random hand times which didn't give any sort of a reflection on what was going on).

    Ideally I'd like to run a wind adjusted PB on Saturday over 200m to start the season off. I do think my 100 and 200 speed has actually gotten better (even though we haven't got into proper speed work yet) probably from getting stronger in the gym.

    All things being equal I would say that you have at least a 26.7 200 in you at present, just a matter of doing it now !


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    RandyMann wrote: »
    All things being equal I would say that you have at least a 26.7 200 in you at present, just a matter of doing it now !

    Yeh with a light following wind, and given my recent 100 and 400 times I think that would be very realistic. Very rare you get ideal conditions for 100 and 200 though. I tend to either get headwinds, or stupidly fast tailwinds. Rarely anything in between!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭ecoli


    I can see the approach of short to long that Randymann is speaking of and to be honest this is a legitimate approach with alot of coaches go by however I guess the case is whether you work on weakness and progress to your strengths or play off your strengths and aim to fine tune the weakness's.

    I am just going off the speed endurance which keeps being mentioned throughout the thread as a strength and distance mentality probably has me going from the idea of becoming stronger in order to be able to handle more high intensity work


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,290 ✭✭✭Oregano_State


    RandyMann wrote: »
    Hey Oregano, if I can use the above regarding that the athlete was already fit and fast. It is a very valid point in relation to Pisco.
    I mean Pisco does not have the raw speed as of yet and IMO he wont get that from doing 3-5km runs. If he had the raw speed, then the above approach would probably help him, but the above approach/program is not really relative to Pisco and his current ability.
    If you work in reverse on athletic ability, you dont have reasonable 800m runners moving down to 400m and become more successful. You normally have reasonable 400m athletes moving up to 800m and becoming more competitive. Same as a reasonable100m/200m moving up to 400 and achieving more success.
    If I were Pisco :), I would spend a couple of seasons developing my 100/200 speed(leave the 400 alone) and then go up to 400. It would be a natural progression. I see it with the juveniles in my club, including my two daughters. They train the children in developing speed and technique and then there is a natural progression into what ever distance best fits the athlete's ability. I mean Pisco may not be very competitive as a 100/200 athlete and he knows this himself but there is certainly room for improvement there to eventually use it as a 400m athlete.
    If Pisco stays around 27sec 200 ability, he would want to have fantastic speed endurance/aerobic capacity to run a 56 400. I mean thats only a 2 second drop off. It doesnt give him much to play with.
    There is a 400m juvenile athlete in my club that I sometimes do intervals with and he has a recent 24.18 200 time but his 400 is 51.XX and his 800 is 2:01 It means that even with his high level of aerobic fitness, he still loses 3 seconds plus in his 400m. Pisco at his best last year had about a 4 second drop off when he ran a 58 and a high 26 200. If he improves that to a 3 second drop off he is still running 57 seconds. This is why I was saying it was important for him to work on his 100/200(especially his 200)
    I am not directing this post at just yourself Oregano, it is open to everyone for conjecture/argument ;)

    I agree with you!

    All I was trying to show is that doing longer runs doesn't necessarily harm speed, and that it's not a case of them being 'junk miles' if they're done in the right way as part of a season-long plan.

    I completely agree that a 400m athlete needs good base speed and that their 200m time is a limiting factor.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    ‎27.30 for 200m today. Pretty disappointed to be honest. Thought I ran well, so was gutted to see that I was about half a second down on what I would have been expecting based on last weeks 400m time. Frustrating that after all the gym work, the hard sessions at the track, the drills etc that I was only 0.02 faster than what I ran into a headwind at Irishtown start of August, and I fear I may have had a tailwind today. :o Hope not! A few people said to me today that I don't get my knees up high enough so my stride is too short and that my actual foot speed is very good. I've been trying to address that by doing the drills but it's pretty hard to actually think about technique when you are racing balls out as fast as you can. I've been told it's all muscle memory from drills, but it must take awhile!

    Decent 800m after with a 2:29.2 which was just 1.6 seconds off my PB but was only using racing flats so have to be pleased with that. It was probably a PB run, just the footwear would have slowed me down. My splits were pretty much even also, as I crossed the line at half way in 74.5.

    Ran the first leg of the 4x400m relay after just so we could field a relay team so we could score some points. I just jogged it.

    Race report to come later.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    Update with regards the wind reading for my 200m race. It appears they didn't get a reading for my particular race. The heat before me was 0.0 and the one after me was 2.0. The 200m went on for about an hour or more, covering about 40 heats and the readings ranged from -0.6 to +2.3, so the chances are that I received a tail wind today which makes today's performance a little bit more disappointing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 920 ✭✭✭RandyMann


    Pisco Sour wrote: »
    Update with regards the wind reading for my 200m race. It appears they didn't get a reading for my particular race. The heat before me was 0.0 and the one after me was 2.0. The 200m went on for about an hour or more, covering about 40 heats and the readings ranged from -0.6 to +2.3, so the chances are that I received a tail wind today which makes today's performance a little bit more disappointing.

    I feel your frustration and to be honest it seems you under performed on the day. I have had days like that and its not nice. When it happens to me, after I get over the disappointment, I just get angry with myself and I get more focussed in training. There could be a number of reasons and its not easy getting advice from many different people on what is good for you and what is not.
    I will agree on what you were told above though, drills are a major factor.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    RandyMann wrote: »
    I feel your frustration and to be honest it seems you under performed on the day. I have had days like that and its not nice. When it happens to me, after I get over the disappointment, I just get angry with myself and I get more focussed in training. There could be a number of reasons and its not easy getting advice from many different people on what is good for you and what is not.
    I will agree on what you were told above though, drills are a major factor.

    The annoying thing is I stepped off the track think I ran very well. Came 3rd out of 6. My club mate who beat me over 100m 2 weeks ago was in lane 8, I was in lane 3. I never saw him. I was way ahead of him. Thought this was a good omen, but the reality was that he had a stinker and I only had an average run. It's funny how slow people around you can make you think like you have run faster. I felt I ran really slow at the State Champs as I trailed 3 seconds behind most of the field, yet I ran faster, 27.13 that day.

    Yeh the different advice is appreciated but also really hard to pick my way through when it can be quite contradicting. One of the coaches today said to me that my time today was roughly in line with what I did last week in the 400. I don't agree with him. There's no doubt my 400 last week was comfortably better.

    I've always been told I have a short stride and I've been trying to sort that out, yet months later people are still saying the same thing. I guess it's something that could take years to fully change.

    Can you have a look at these videos and tell me if the stride is too short? These races are not exactly current and I have done a lot of drill work since then which I didn't do last season, and I am much more relaxed in the arms now than I was then, but looking at this, while my stride needs improvement, it doesn't look THAT bad. Not to the level some were making out.

    Lane 8 in both:





  • Closed Accounts Posts: 920 ✭✭✭RandyMann


    Pisco Sour wrote: »
    The annoying thing is I stepped off the track think I ran very well. Came 3rd out of 6. My club mate who beat me over 100m 2 weeks ago was in lane 8, I was in lane 3. I never saw him. I was way ahead of him. Thought this was a good omen, but the reality was that he had a stinker and I only had an average run. It's funny how slow people around you can make you think like you have run faster. I felt I ran really slow at the State Champs as I trailed 3 seconds behind most of the field, yet I ran faster, 27.13 that day.

    Yeh the different advice is appreciated but also really hard to pick my way through when it can be quite contradicting. One of the coaches today said to me that my time today was roughly in line with what I did last week in the 400. I don't agree with him. There's no doubt my 400 last week was comfortably better.

    I've always been told I have a short stride and I've been trying to sort that out, yet months later people are still saying the same thing. I guess it's something that could take years to fully change.

    Can you have a look at these videos and tell me if the stride is too short? These races are not exactly current and I have done a lot of drill work since then which I didn't do last season, and I am much more relaxed in the arms now than I was then, but looking at this, while my stride needs improvement, it doesn't look THAT bad. Not to the level some were making out.

    Lane 8 in both:




    With regard to stride length, it does not look that short but it could do with some improvement. What we do in training is run over the small little hurdles in a row but they are gradually spaced wider and wider apart to naturally stretch your stride, like 3 foot apart for the first few to 4 foot, then 5 foot etc. You do look a little stiff and you look very upright. A slight lean at the hip would help. I suffer from the same problem.
    Drills and loads of them is the key. We spend a least hour of our sessions doing drills. They can be monotonous and boring but they are so important. Its hard to say from the video but it seems your trail leg is dragging behind a bit. It should be tucking up quicker to deliver the next stride. Those butt kick drills will help but do them fast like 180bpm.
    With regard to the 100, your start is poor for a couple of reasons. You dont get out of the blocks with good reaction and power. This is why I was telling you that deadlifts etc are important. You are also not driving for long enough as you become upright too soon. You should be driving for at least 30m and the next 20m you should slowly start to become more upright to reach your top speed around 60m mark.
    If you come upright too soon, you automatically stop accelerating and you wont reach your maximum speed. The rest of the distance will just be hanging onto a speed that maybe only 90% of what you are capable of reaching. The longer you spend driving, the better.
    With regard to your overall technique it's not that bad at all. You just dont look strong enough but that will come in time, if you do the required strength work.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    RandyMann wrote: »
    With regard to stride length, it does not look that short but it could do with some improvement. What we do in training is run over the small little hurdles in a row but they are gradually spaced wider and wider apart to naturally stretch your stride, like 3 foot apart for the first few to 4 foot, then 5 foot etc. You do look a little stiff and you look very upright. A slight lean at the hip would help. I suffer from the same problem.
    Drills and loads of them is the key. We spend a least hour of our sessions doing drills. They can be monotonous and boring but they are so important. Its hard to say from the video but it seems your trail leg is dragging behind a bit. It should be tucking up quicker to deliver the next stride. Those butt kick drills will help but do them fast like 180bpm.
    With regard to the 100, your start is poor for a couple of reasons. You dont get out of the blocks with good reaction and power. This is why I was telling you that deadlifts etc are important. You are also not driving for long enough as you become upright too soon. You should be driving for at least 30m and the next 20m you should slowly start to become more upright to reach your top speed around 60m mark.
    If you come upright too soon, you automatically stop accelerating and you wont reach your maximum speed. The rest of the distance will just be hanging onto a speed that maybe only 90% of what you are capable of reaching. The longer you spend driving, the better.
    With regard to your overall technique it's not that bad at all. You just dont look strong enough but that will come in time, if you do the required strength work.

    Cheers for the advice. Keep in mind though these videos are from last March. I am about a 100 times stronger now than I was then gym wise, and I've been making a conscious effort not to look so robot like in the arms. The upright stance is something that seems a bit inbuilt in me. When I'm running I dont feel like I am doing it at all. It's only when I see it back that I notice how upright it looks. Though then again, Michael Johnson had an upright stance. :)

    I never did any drills back then either, so I'd imagine my technique would be better now then it was then. My coach had said to me about a month ago that my stride was still short but that it was improving. I think the guy who told me that he had never seen anybody run so fast with such a short stride doesn't know anything about sprinting to be honest.

    I'm astonished that none of my training group do drills including our 50 second runner. He must have excellent technique. The problem with all of this is that because they don't do them and I do that means my warm up is longer than theres, which makes it hard to make it to the start of the training session, especially given then fact I have a hard time getting out to the track quick enough from work anyway. But yes drills are crucial so maybe I have to sacrifice a few reps with the training group in favour of them. Maybe I should do a bit more. Currently I do the following, all with a light stride out after (I dont know the name for half of them), which is similar to what some of the lads at DSD were doing:

    1 x high knee
    1 x butt kicks
    1 x skips
    1 x fast tiny steps
    1 x walking high knee
    2 x hurdle motion every 4th step (1 rep on each side)
    1 x straight leg motion (where you keep the legs straight and run without bending the knees)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 920 ✭✭✭RandyMann


    Pisco Sour wrote: »
    Cheers for the advice. Keep in mind though these videos are from last March. I am about a 100 times stronger now than I was then gym wise, and I've been making a conscious effort not to look so robot like in the arms. The upright stance is something that seems a bit inbuilt in me. When I'm running I dont feel like I am doing it at all. It's only when I see it back that I notice how upright it looks. Though then again, Michael Johnson had an upright stance. :)

    I never did any drills back then either, so I'd imagine my technique would be better now then it was then. My coach had said to me about a month ago that my stride was still short but that it was improving. I think the guy who told me that he had never seen anybody run so fast with such a short stride doesn't know anything about sprinting to be honest.

    I'm astonished that none of my training group do drills including our 50 second runner. He must have excellent technique. The problem with all of this is that because they don't do them and I do that means my warm up is longer than theres, which makes it hard to make it to the start of the training session, especially given then fact I have a hard time getting out to the track quick enough from work anyway. But yes drills are crucial so maybe I have to sacrifice a few reps with the training group in favour of them. Maybe I should do a bit more. Currently I do the following, all with a light stride out after (I dont know the name for half of them), which is similar to what some of the lads at DSD were doing:

    1 x high knee
    1 x butt kicks
    1 x skips
    1 x fast tiny steps
    1 x walking high knee
    2 x hurdle motion every 4th step (1 rep on each side)
    1 x straight leg motion (where you keep the legs straight and run without bending the knees)

    Not a very good coach if he is not insisting on drills and correcting bad technique. It seems you know most of the drills though, do you include A skip and B skip in them?
    If you dont have and of the low hurdles, try marking out the ground even with small cones and space them at increasing distances apart to sprint over them at speed to increase stride length.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    The 2nd round of the AV shield took us to Doncaster on a glorious sunny Saturday afternoon. Perfect conditions for sprinting so no excuses with regards the weather could be made on this occasion. The 200m and 800m were on the menu for me on this occasion.

    200m:

    Shins felt a bit sore during warm up but after awhile I didn't notice them as much. I did a good warm up with jogging, stretches, drills and strides and I was ready to go. However as I have mentioned before, one of the few side-effects to the great setup of the AV Shield is the fact that everybody has to queue up in a line for their heat. So basically there was about 25 heats of the men's 200m with one going off every 2-3 minutes. Behind one race you would have a queue about 20 deep in each lane. As a result it kind of undoes a bit of the good of the warm up. Obviously you can keep striding but then you may lose your position. I went off for one stride during the long wait to keep the muscles warm but I didn't want to chance it too much.

    I decided to take lane 3 which was the inside lane as 1 and 2 were being used for the women's 800m. The rationale was that I set my PB of 26.92 back in January in that lane, and that it gives me a nice view of the entire field. It feels so much better storming past somebody than having somebody else storm past you.

    I don't feel my start was particularly good and was slow to move the first 40m but felt to be getting into the groove after this and as I came into the home straight I was in 3rd place. My club mate who beat me in the 100 a few weeks ago was in Lane 8 and I expected to see him come up on me and for it to be a dogfight in the last 100m. No sign of him. Boy I must be flying!. I pushed hard and crossed the line in 3rd albeit a very distant 3rd. The guy who won was in lane 4, and before the race I asked him what sort of speed would he be going at and he told me he was hoping for a 26. Well the bluffer ran 24 low. Can't stand bluffers and false modesty!

    Anyway afterwards I felt I had ran well and fully expected to see my name come up with a solid 26 beside it. After a very long wait I was gutted to see 27.30 seconds. There's nothing worse than building up your performance in your head. It makes the disappointment worse. As it turned out my club mate had a disastrous 29.2. Being way ahead of him messed with my head into thinking I ran a blinder.

    It wasn't a terrible run and had I not run at Irishtown in August I'd probably be satisfied enough to open my season with that run. But having run 27.32 into a -1.1 headwind then, to only go 0.02 faster, with a tailwind (so in reality a slower run by over a tenth of a second) was very disappointing. 2 and a half months and I haven't got faster.

    Of the 39 heats of the men's and women's 200 my heat was the only one without a wind reading. So I have averaged out the other 38 heats and am going to take the wind to be +0.7.

    Taking the wind into the equation for yesterday's run and my PB run in January I was only 0.30 off my PB which is really only a couple of metres, so I'm not miles off and it will come. Maybe I am expecting too much too early in the season. It's just the fact I ran better in August which is most annoying.

    One thing which must be noted is the track has a very long straight, at exactly 100m, unlike 85m which you would get on many tracks. This makes the bend's a bit tighter at Doncaster. This may have made a little difference, but hardly huge by any means, and as I said the weather was perfect for sprinting, so feels like a wasted opportunity in that regard.

    Next 200m is in 2 weeks time at the same track, then the next one after that is 3 weeks after again, at Ringwood where I set my PB.

    800m:

    Not a lot of recovery time before the 800m so I waited a bit before joining a heat, entering one of the slowest heats. They said it was a 2:40-2:50 heat but I've been in the game long enough now to know that there will be plenty of chancers jumping in a faster heat. So on this occasion I decided to be a chancer as well. In total there were 11 in my heat and it turned out to be a good proper race. I wore the racing flats, knowing that I would be compensating a couple of seconds in favour of not risking injury by wearing sprint spikes.

    I wasn't particularly enthused before the start. I never am before 800s. I hate the first lap of it. It's a mental challenge for me. Gun went off and I got out to a good start as I settled into 5th place as we entered the back straight and passed 200m in 35 seconds. The next 200m was where I slowed a bit. I was cruising and I held my position as I hit the bell in 74.5ish. At this point I upped the effort levels significantly and move out into lane 2 coming around the bend to pass 2 guys in front of me in one swoop and move up into 3rd place. I probably lost a bit moving out but I wasn't prepared to sit behind them.

    At this point I was in 3rd with 250m to go but a solid 30m down on the top 2. Then one lad went past me and I couldn't stay with him. I passed the 600 mark in 1:52, hitting around 37.5 for the 3rd 200. With 150m to go another lad passed me. I kicked hard with 100 to go and was moving well but I couldn't get back near the other guys and finished well down on the top 4 (race won in 2:24) and crossed the line in 5th in 2:29.2. Even splits of 74 and a half each lap. The 200s were even enough also with 35 - 39.5 - 37.5 - 37.

    Overall I have to be happy with that run. I was only 1.6 seconds off my PB (set on the same track in February) but I probably lost about 2 seconds yesterday based on using the flats so it was more than likely it was a PB run, but alas no PB officially.

    4x400m relay:

    Our club were a bit low on numbers and we didn't have enough people to field a relay team so they asked me and I agreed to help out but only if I could just jog it. They had no problem with that as we were going to be last anyway so it was just a case of getting the baton around and scoring some points for the club. I assumed they would put me on last and that when I was given the baton in last place nobody would notice me jogging so slowly. But no, they put me on the lead off leg! Raging. Now I was lining up against good 400m runners and was going to look so silly jogging it. I didn't want to race it though (want to save myself for the real 400 next week) so I resisted any temptation to run fast and put on my road running shoes. I timed my run and it was 91 seconds. The worst bit though was some ignorant AV official standing in my lane (lane 8) as I came towards the finish line. One of my team mates told him to get out of the lane as I approached and he didn't even listen. I then roared at him as I approached to get out of my lane. He moves aside just in time and then proceeds to give mild abuse to me. Yes that's right it's MY fault he was standing in my lane. Utter tool. He uttered something like "I never knew it was possible to run that slow". Total knob. Sorry lad I can run 58 seconds thank you very much, what can you run!! It's not my fault the scoring system is flawed that it rewards participation as much as it does performance. Not happy with it change it, but I have every right to jog around to get points for my club so get the f**k out of my lane! I went over to him after and gave out sh1t to him and he didn't apologise and just said he didn't see me and turned away! Pr1ck. End of rant.

    Despite the frustrating 200m performance it was a very enjoyable day. Great weather and enormous participation. The way track should be.

    Round 3 next week with the 100 the starter and the 400 the main course.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    Back on the horse today after Saturday's races with a gym session. The main focus of my gym sessions right now is on the bench press and legs press.

    Bench Press:

    I continued with the 8 week program I am currently on. Today had me lifting 70%, 75%, 80% and 85% of my previously measured max of 145lbs. Each set had 8 reps and had long breaks between each set (did other exercises between them. Heaviest weight today was 122.25lbs Wednesday the max weight goes down to 80% before some pretty nasty looking weights next week!:) I got through the 8 reps of all the weights though it got a bit shakey towards the end.

    Leg Press:

    I upped the weight today to 95.5kg, up from 75.5kg. This doesn't count the weight of the machine, which I have no idea how much extra that is. Could be another 25kg, maybe more, but then again the amount you lift is made easier given the fact the machine is at a 45 degree angle. From now on I'll just track my progress in terms of weight added to the machine, unless I find out the weight of the sled on the machine.

    I did 8 reps at this weight 3 times It felt a hell of a lot tougher than the 75kg did the last day. I hope to get it up to 4 times each session soon, and keep slowly adding the weight. Need to build power in those legs.

    The rest:

    I did the rest of my 8 exercises twice, except for the step-ups which I am reducing to once per session now, as it bores me to tears and it has sort of served it's purpose at this stage, but I don't want to ditch it completely yet.

    Bit of info here for Oregano State about our 50.1 second 400 runner. He's run a 100, 200, 400 and 800 over the last 2 weeks and his times are:

    100 - 11.98 (almost a zero wind)
    200 - 23.87 (small headwind)
    400 - 51.18
    800 - 2:04.xx

    Interesting figures. A much higher level to me, but can still see the same sort of thing: Not the same level over 100 and 200 as he is over 400, and a big drop off over 800.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,290 ✭✭✭Oregano_State


    Pisco Sour wrote: »
    Bit of info here for Oregano State about our 50.1 second 400 runner. He's run a 100, 200, 400 and 800 over the last 2 weeks and his times are:

    100 - 11.98 (almost a zero wind)
    200 - 23.87 (small headwind)
    400 - 51.18
    800 - 2:04.xx

    Interesting figures. A much higher level to me, but can still see the same sort of thing: Not the same level over 100 and 200 as he is over 400, and a big drop off over 800.


    Good stuff with the gym work. Keep up the consistency and your race times should come down.

    Yeah those are interesting times. I ran my 2:03 800m PB when I was in 53 sec 400m shape. I've never done 200m or 100m electronically timed, but I don't think I've ever gotten under 12 sec for 100m or 24 for 200m.

    He looks like he's getting almost full value for his 200m time over 400m, not much of a drop off.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,290 ✭✭✭Oregano_State


    Also, on the stride length thing, it seems to me like your knees aren't coming up high enough, and you look like your upper body and arm action look a bit tense, not as relaxed as they could be.

    What we used to do at my old club was do each drill twice (high knees, butt kicks, A-skip, B-skip); the fiirst time 'slowly' for quality, then a second time for speed. Really emphasise the high knee action as this should naturally leghthen the stride. Then after the drills do 3-5 stride outs, building up speed gradually and focusing on staying as relaxed as possible while emphasising technique.

    I know you're short for time when you get to the track, but you could try doing this on a weekend before the gym or something, it doesn't have to be always before a track session.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    Also, on the stride length thing, it seems to me like your knees aren't coming up high enough, and you look like your upper body and arm action look a bit tense, not as relaxed as they could be.

    What we used to do at my old club was do each drill twice (high knees, butt kicks, A-skip, B-skip); the fiirst time 'slowly' for quality, then a second time for speed. Really emphasise the high knee action as this should naturally leghthen the stride. Then after the drills do 3-5 stride outs, building up speed gradually and focusing on staying as relaxed as possible while emphasising technique.

    I know you're short for time when you get to the track, but you could try doing this on a weekend before the gym or something, it doesn't have to be always before a track session.

    Good advice. Cheers. Keep in mind though that these are old videos. The stiff arms has been ironed out now I believe. I am a lot more relaxed running these days I believe. My stride would surely have improved since then also given all my drills and gym work. I posted these videos mainly because they are the only ones there are of me. I wish I had more recent ones.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    6x160m this evening with 5 minute recoveries. Usual warm up with drills, and did 7 strides in total trying to think about technique while doing them.

    For the session, I was a bit late getting started due to my warm up so the guy who I was running with was on his 3rd rep when I started my first. The guy I was running with is roughly a 12 dead, 24 dead runner over 100 and 200, and ran a 53 TT in the 400 last season in training, but died a few days later in State Champs only running 55, the same day I ran my 58. He's only a week back from a long 3-4 week holiday though so really is not in the sort of shape he could be Regardless I was happy to be getting close to him.

    I timed the first 3 reps which were quite speedy, notwithstanding the tailwind down the home straight:

    22.1 - 22.2 - 22.4

    Then I decided to ditch the watch. I wanted to focus on Randymann's advice of keeping the head down for the first 30m, and I wanted to start at a 3 point start. When clicking the stop watch you don't get off to as quick a start, so decided to turn my back on it for the rest of the session. After the 4th rep, one of the lads who was doing pole vault training at the time came up to me and said that my stride looked so much better. Was pleased to hear that. :) I then asked the coach how I looked and he told me to focus on getting the heels up to the arse and then drive over the knee. The last 2 reps I focused on this and felt like I was moving well. One of the girls joined me for the last few reps, and she started 10m or so in front of me, so I had somebody to chase down, and I passed her with around 40-50m to go.

    Pretty happy with the session I feel like slow progress is being made. But technique really is a long term project. It won't become excellent overnight.

    One of my friends afterwards showed me how to do the bounding exercise which he says will help lengthen the stride. Anybody any experience with bounding?

    Legs feeling heavy now. Can't wait for my massage tomorrow.

    Unrelated to the above but I wrote a blog on the Olympic Games. Don't want to put it up on the main forum as it is not athletics related really:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 920 ✭✭✭RandyMann


    Pisco Sour wrote: »
    6x160m this evening with 5 minute recoveries. Usual warm up with drills, and did 7 strides in total trying to think about technique while doing them.

    For the session, I was a bit late getting started due to my warm up so the guy who I was running with was on his 3rd rep when I started my first. The guy I was running with is roughly a 12 dead, 24 dead runner over 100 and 200, and ran a 53 TT in the 400 last season in training, but died a few days later in State Champs only running 55, the same day I ran my 58. He's only a week back from a long 3-4 week holiday though so really is not in the sort of shape he could be Regardless I was happy to be getting close to him.

    I timed the first 3 reps which were quite speedy, notwithstanding the tailwind down the home straight:

    22.1 - 22.2 - 22.4

    Then I decided to ditch the watch. I wanted to focus on Randymann's advice of keeping the head down for the first 30m, and I wanted to start at a 3 point start. When clicking the stop watch you don't get off to as quick a start, so decided to turn my back on it for the rest of the session. After the 4th rep, one of the lads who was doing pole vault training at the time came up to me and said that my stride looked so much better. Was pleased to hear that. :) I then asked the coach how I looked and he told me to focus on getting the heels up to the arse and then drive over the knee. The last 2 reps I focused on this and felt like I was moving well. One of the girls joined me for the last few reps, and she started 10m or so in front of me, so I had somebody to chase down, and I passed her with around 40-50m to go.

    Pretty happy with the session I feel like slow progress is being made. But technique really is a long term project. It won't become excellent overnight.

    One of my friends afterwards showed me how to do the bounding exercise which he says will help lengthen the stride. Anybody any experience with bounding?

    Legs feeling heavy now. Can't wait for my massage tomorrow.

    Unrelated to the above but I wrote a blog on the Olympic Games. Don't want to put it up on the main forum as it is not athletics related really:

    Those interval times are getting close to where you want them to be, good work.
    With regard to bounding, they are great but make sure to do them on grass as they will play havoc with your shins.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    RandyMann wrote: »
    Those interval times are getting close to where you want them to be, good work.
    With regard to bounding, they are great but make sure to do them on grass as they will play havoc with your shins.

    Yeh I was doing them on grass. Will just do a couple of them before each session. Seems like a pretty high intensity exercise so don't want to risk doing any damage. How often do you do them?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 920 ✭✭✭RandyMann


    Pisco Sour wrote: »
    Yeh I was doing them on grass. Will just do a couple of them before each session. Seems like a pretty high intensity exercise so don't want to risk doing any damage. How often do you do them?

    I used to do them twice a week last season but have not done them with the new coach this season, so far anyway.
    With regard to gym, you should start to consider exercises that are hamstring/glute dominant. These are are the main muscle groups that are used for sprinting power/speed. I see you are doing leg press which is good but that is more quad dominant and not as important as the others.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,290 ✭✭✭Oregano_State


    RandyMann wrote: »
    I used to do them twice a week last season but have not done them with the new coach this season, so far anyway.
    With regard to gym, you should start to consider exercises that are hamstring/glute dominant. These are are the main muscle groups that are used for sprinting power/speed. I see you are doing leg press which is good but that is more quad dominant and not as important as the others.

    Agree. Moar deadlifts, back squats, front squats. Hang/Power cleans too if you're feeling adventurous!

    I'd advise starting out slowly with the bounding (plyometric) exercises if you've aver had any ankle or shin problems, maybe just once a week. I've never had shin splint injuries, but any time I did a lengthy plyo workout I'd always have pain in my shins afterwards.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    Weekly massage this evening followed by gym session. Made a few changes this evening and ditched a few exercises and have gone for the lower volume higher intensity approach. Today I did:

    1) Bench Press: 4 sets of 8 (65%, 70%, 75% and 80% of my 145lbs max) - Last set was at 115lbs. Next Monday will get up to a rather nasty looking 130lbs at the end.

    2) Goodmornings: 3 sets of 3x5 with 45lbs on my shoulders.

    3) Box Squats: 3 sets of 2x10 with 45lbs on my shoulders. Have brought these back to get more hamstring work into my programme.

    4) Leg Press: 3 sets of 8 at 104.5kg, up 9kg from the last day. Found the 3rd set of this very tough but I got through it.

    5) Pull-ups: 2 sets of 10. Really am struggling now that I am doing full extension pull ups. Body swings from side to side so badly, and more demand is being put on my fingers as I am staying down for longer. Could only get to 9 on my 2nd set but it was at the end of my session.

    6) Body twists: 2 sets of 20 with 10kg weight. I've started raising my legs during these now to make the exercise harder.

    7) Crunches: 1 set of 50 (up from 40)

    8) Side Sit-ups: 1 set of 40 (20 on each side)

    9) Heel Raises: 1 set of 10 holding 22lbs.

    Feeling a bit sapped of energy now.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    A real confidence boosting session this evening. Originally I was to do 2x200 and 2x150 but after my 2nd 200 one of the coaches said that he wanted to see me do another 200 and then leave it at that.

    Normal warm up with jog, stretches, drills and strides, focusing on my technique, trying to keep the head down for the first 30m and then lengthen the stride by kicking the bum and driving forward.

    I was running the reps on my own but I would use the middle distance guys as targets to chase down. I took 5 minutes between each rep.

    I was focusing on improving the technique and wanted to start with a 3 point start so I ditched the watch. I felt like I was moving well and was being more economical with my stride, but had more in the tank, and wasn't going flat out. After the second rep one of the coaches said that my stride was "noticably better" and that he inquired of my time for it. When I told him I hadn't timed it he ordered me to scrap the 2x150 and do one more 200 timed. As it turned out they timed me anyway, but as they were also watching the middle distance guys it was no guarantee that they would catch my rep also, so I timed myself at their request. Well it was pretty good. 29 low, which is the fastest rep I have ever timed myself do over 200m, which was in pretty ****ty conditions also. I'm certain that at least my 2nd rep would have been even faster. Coach said he wants to see me take that stride into a race now.

    One of the other coaches said to me that way back when he was running at his peak he was pretty good over 100 and 400 but struggled to run well over 200. He said he had good top speed and had an 11.5 over 100m, and he could hold a good pace for awhile (53 for 400) but over 200m he could never get it right and could never hold top speed for long enough, and his best was only 25. Found this very interesting. I feel I am a little bit at this stage at the moment, as my 100m seems to be better than my 200m at this early stage of the season.

    Absolutely pumped for Saturday now. Hopefully I can knock out 2 good runs.


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