Running Aimlessly Down Under - From 54 to 53 sec 400m

Chivito550

Went for my yearly penance of racing a 5km this morning at the Rathfarnham 5km. 19:47 to finish 169th out of 900. Not too bad for a sprinter! Beautiful morning for it, and a really well organised race, but hated every undying second of that. The next time I get any crazy notions of racing a 5km I will recall just how awful I felt during those 19 minutes! Good fitness to take into the winter anyway!

Just 1 second off my PB from Marlay Parkrun old course last year, the last time I raced it. This is a quicker course, but I was probably in better shape when I ran the PB last year as it was not long after track season. I don't mind not getting the PB anyway. Happy with the solid sub 20.

Will throw up a report in the next day or so.

Chivito550

I didn't tell anyone I was doing this, partly because it was something I only decided about 6 days out, and partly not to build it up too much. In the grand scheme of things it didn't matter all that much what I ran here. But having said that, any race I enter I tend to want to run my best on the day, regardless of how prepared I am for the distance.

After about a week and a half of complete rest after returning from China, I decided to start doing jogs to regain some fitness lost since going on break after nationals. In total I did 6 runs over the course of 2 weeks, totalling a little over 30km. Hardly great preparation but in that short space of time my fitness improved very quickly. I did a couple of Parkruns not flat out, both in 21:0x, and the second one felt much easier than the first. In the last week I threw in some longer runs of 9.5km and 6.5km for a bit of extra endurance.

I decided on the Rathfarnham 5Km as apparently it is the quickest 5km race out there. I ran it once, back in 2009, just before I embarked on training for the Rotterdam Marathon, and recorded 21:02. I didn't race another 5km after that until a Parkrun last year, a couple of weeks after concluding my track season, and recorded a 19:46 at the Marlay Parkrun. I reckoned that equated to sub 19:30 on the Rathfarnham course. However on this occasion I was unsure if I was in as good a shape as last year, so being honest a sub 20 again would satisfy me. A PB would be nice too, but I wasn't overly thinking about sub 19:30 or sub 19.

Picked up my "goody bag" and number on the Saturday, and the nice man from Rathfarnham AC, who I'm familiar with from the Graded Meets, tried to recruit me to his club. All good natured, but a club which is almost 100% focused on distance running is a damn tough sell to a sprinter!

The weather was stunning. About 14-15 degrees and bright sunshine. On the start line I was actually feeling very warm. A couple more degrees and it could have been a bloodbath, but as it was, was just about perfect.

I lined up about 6 rows back from the front, unsure of whether I was in the right spot or not. But a few rows behind that looked to have a few guys who would surely be slower than me, so I thought I'd stay put, and as I'm usually quite quick over the first few hundred metres anyway, I wouldn't get in people's way during the hectic opening stages.

Jerry Kiernan fired off the gun and away we went. I surged fairly hard the first 7-8 seconds or so, and then settled into a rythm on the mildly downhill first kilometre. I felt comfortable, but there were loads of people now starting to go past me. This continued for pretty much the whole race, but in particular over the first 5 minutes or so. I kept the head down and just focused on myself though.

I glance at my watch and the clock is approaching 4 minutes and still no sign of the damn first kilometre marker. WTF. Was I really going that slow? I had no idea if I was going fast or slow? Without any knowledge of pacing, and complete inexperience, how could I know. Soon after I see a 3 mile marker (for when we came around the second time) so I was relieved when I realised they were using mile markers instead.

Then I come to the first mile marker, just as we begin the uphill section of the course. 5:35! What is going on here? That's 17 minute pace. Granted it's downhill, but my immediate reaction was that it had to be in the wrong spot. But perhaps I was going too fast. I soldiered on, up the hill into Terenure, and around now it really started to hurt, and this pain would not subside for the rest of the journey. Yes indeed I had gone out too fast, even though it didn't feel fast, and how I was suffering now.

As I venture out of the village on the long road towards Templeogue, I see one of my training partners shout out at me. He was shocked to see me and yelled "what are you doing here?", to which I replied "I have no idea", now questioning the sanity of such self-inflicted agony. Soon after Bushy Park was on my left and I so wanted to quit. Just step into the park now, and sneak out the other side, pick up my bag where I left it, and head off home. Nobody will ever know. These thoughts were going through my head. I was never going to act on them, as I knew I'd be pissed off with myself if I had, so I trundled on, considerably backing off, mentally not able to sustain the pace I was going at for fear of even more aching of the lungs.

Then I arrived at the 3km mark in 11:38. I'm not sure why they were only starting km markers now, but I was delighted to see I was still well on for sub 20 pace, despite a complete horror show over the last 5 minutes. Then the 2 mile marker came up as 12:49, so I covered 218m in 71 seconds. WTF. So again, either the markers are not right, or I was really crawling. Of course I didn't do this calculation at the time, which was probably a good thing for my sanity.

People are still going past me, quite frequently, and I am not passing very many at all. It's real damage limitation labour at this point. I've banked time and am hanging on. Then when I begin the second downhill section, knowing theres only about 1.5km to go, I feel a great mental boost. The worst is over. I get to 4km in 15:53, so my 4th kilometre was only 4:15. I'm still on sub 20 pace, and assumed I would get it, but I needed to finish strongly to secure it.

Around this time I see one of my sisters friends, who gives me a shout out. Very random to see her there. I thank her for her support on Facebook later and she tells me she has no idea what I am talking about and I must be getting her mixed up with somebody else. I guess this person was supporting somebody else behind me who had the exact same name, and she looked like my sisters friend. Or else I was just going mad with exhaustion. Most likely I was going mad!

This was the longest kilometre I've ever run. It seemed to never end. Each 200m flag felt like about 400m. I got to 800m to go and felt like crying. 2 bleedin laps of a track away. My memory is hazy but I had about 3 minutes and 20 seconds or so to get there. I tried to up the pace at 600 to go, but felt I needed to save my kick until the last 200m. I was now making very disturbing loud noises on a continuous basis, non stop for about a minute or so. This was not fun. This was less enjoyable than being sat on by a Rhino!

With 200m to go the clock says around 19:0x or so. I knew the sub 20 was guaranteed, but felt the PB was going to be hard to nab. But being honest I had long stopped caring about the PB. I was in such discomfort already, without throwing in that extra 1% effort to try secure it. I kicked at this point and went past a few. I drew level with 2 girls, and in the last 50m kicked strongly past them, stopping my watch at 19:46, which if official would equal my PB. I guessed it would probably be rounded up, and that my reactions with my watch wouldn't have been completely spot on, and so it proved. Official time was 19:47, just one second off my PB. I didn't really care all that much. I was just so happy it was all over, and I threw myself onto the wet grass, which was incredibly refreshing, and lay there for about 3-4 minutes. After this I recovered quicker than I thought I would.

I'm delighted with the time. It's absolutely nothing special at all, but it's a good time for a sprinter, especially given my lack of ability to pace these distances, and my lack of specific endurance for these distances. But 5:35 for the first mile and hanging on, is neither the most optimal way to race a 5K, nor is it in any way enjoyable.

Great event, organised very well. A little disappointed with the "post race spread" in Terenure College afterwards. 6 years ago they had an unreal amount of sandwiches and cakes. This time just some fig roll biscuits. Not sure when all that grub stopped, but as it was 6 years since I've done this race, I just assumed it was the same. In any case it doesn't matter. I don't get any free stuff off the AAI or Irish Milers Club after any track races.

So that's my annual sub 20 attempt done. It will be 12 months before I embark on this annual pilgrimage again for my sins.

menoscemo

Well done on gritting it out!
From other reports I think the first mile marker was a little short (though only about 10 seconds or so) but at the same stage looking at your FB pics, the runners around you in the first mile or so all went on to finish between 17-18 minutes, so yeah you probably did go out a bit quick

Pacing Mule

Super report there J. Very well done on hanging in.

Firedance

Ha, I had exactly the same thoughts at busy park well done!

Krusty_Clown

Not bad for a sprinter. Not bad at all!

RacoonQueen

How many km would you typically run a week with sprint training? Do you even measure it?

Chivito550

RacoonQueen wrote: »

How many km would you typically run a week with sprint training? Do you even measure it?

I'd never measure it. But a quick calculation last year as a 400m runner:

3 days running sessions per week:

Warm up: 800m jog
Strides and drills: Maybe adds up to 600m max in total
Warm down: 400m jog and sometimes maybe about 200m of warm down strides

3 x (800 + 600 + 400 + 200) = 6000m

The actual sessions themselves:

1 speed: (Ranges from 360m to 750m approx)
1 speed endurance: (Ranges from 900m to 1200m roughly)
1 endurance: Around 1500m to 1800m

Taking the max of each of these: 750 + 1200 + 1800 = 3750

So 6000m = 3750m = 9750m.

We'll round this up. So 10km of running per week!

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

I'd never measure it. But a quick calculation last year as a 400m runner:

3 days running sessions per week:

Warm up: 800m jog
Strides and drills: Maybe adds up to 600m max in total
Warm down: 400m jog and sometimes maybe about 200m of warm down strides

3 x (800 + 600 + 400 + 200) = 6000m

The actual sessions themselves:

1 speed: (Ranges from 360m to 750m approx)
1 speed endurance: (Ranges from 900m to 1200m roughly)
1 endurance: Around 1500m to 1800m

Taking the max of each of these: 750 + 1200 + 1800 = 3750

So 6000m = 3750m = 9750m.

We'll round this up. So 10km of running per week!

Would you ever think of just doing a 5k plan for 16 weeks and see what you get?
Might give you that new boost in your running that you are looking for?

Great time and well done.

Chivito550

average_runner wrote: »

Would you ever think of just doing a 5k plan for 16 weeks and see what you get?
Might give you that new boost in your running that you are looking for?

Great time and well done.

Murph_D

Interesting resport, Chivito. Insane splits alright but of course you'd get a better feel for the pace with a bit more practice. The result isn't bad - about a 66% age grade for a 30ish runner, which is solid enough. I don't know how well you can extrapolate from 400m to 5k (probably not very well at all, I'd imagine) but your VDOT of 75 or so for 400m vs 50.5 for this means you could probably get that time well down with a bit of specific work. But of course you know that already. Well done.

Chivito550

Murph_D wrote: »

Interesting resport, Chivito. Insane splits alright but of course you'd get a better feel for the pace with a bit more practice. The result isn't bad - about a 66% age grade for a 30ish runner, which is solid enough. I don't know how well you can extrapolate from 400m to 5k (probably not very well at all, I'd imagine) but your VDOT of 75 or so for 400m vs 50.5 for this means you could probably get that time well down with a bit of specific work. But of course you know that already. Well done.

I'd imagine that you can't extrapolate at all from a 400m to a 5K. The events are far too different, although you need to be fit for a 400m, which is not necessarily true for 100m or 200m (though endurance still plays a part in the 200).

There's comparison methods though, but these are only with regards to equivalent performances, rather than indicators of potential.

1) IAAF Tables: My 54.88 PB equates to 16:17 for 5K

2) Percentage of WR: 54.88/43.18 = 1.2709

1.2709 x 12.62 minutes (12 mins 37 secs) = 16:02 for 5K

All the above say is that in terms of quality, my 400m PB is of the same quality as a low 16 5K. This doesn't indicate that I have the potential to run that time with specific training though, the same way it doesn't indicate that I can throw a javelin 44 metres. It's just merely equivalent performances.

With specific training I'd find that low 16 minutes would be well out of my physical, and more importantly mental capabilities. I think I'm more suited to the shorter stuff. I find long stuff quite boring when going easy, and like a slow death when going hard. Mentally I struggle with the extended pain associated with it. This could hold me back. Of course, I'd imagine with specific training, and a lot of mileage in the legs, these training would feel a bit more comfortable. Maybe some day in the future.

Chivito550

It’s coming up to the time when I am soon to start back into winter training. It’s nearly 8 weeks since Nationals finished, and I’ve had a lot of time to ponder what direction I will go with regards athletics this coming season. Usually at the end of a long season I feel pretty jaded and am excited about going on a break. Then by the end of the break I am itching to get back into it. This has been the case after each of the first 4 track seasons I competed in.

However, last season was different. I was feeling mentally shattered a lot earlier, enjoying it a lot less, and longing for the break from a really early stage. I battled through all this, and kept focus on my training and racing, but it was becoming quite apparent that I wasn’t enjoying it like I have, or like I should. Almost 8 weeks into the break and that hunger to get back into 400m training has not come back. The idea of training for the 400m throughout the winter, and in the same tunnel vision manner as last year, simply does not excite me. So I’m feeling happy about deciding to not train for the 400m this coming season. I’ll take a break from the distance, and if the hunger does come back, then I can have another shot at it the following season. If it doesn’t come back, then that’s fine too. I’m at a stage where I want to enjoy my athletics. With the 400m you’d show up to 2 of your 3 running sessions each week with dread, complete fear with what was to come. Not every week mind you, but generally at least 1, often 2 of the sessions each week you’d feel like this beforehand. I’ve had 5 seasons training for this distance, have run 60 races (62 including the 2 I had to DNF), so it’s fair to say I have given the event a proper shot, and it has been enjoyable a lot of the time, but of late it has started feeling more like work.

I want to stay competing in athletics and having fun, and if I proceed with the 400m next season, I don’t see that happening. In Melbourne I truly enjoyed the sport, and the variety of events and competitions I would be part of. Since coming home, there hasn’t been much variety, and everything has been about the 400m. I miss showing up to track meets and doing 2 to 3 events on a day, like I would do often (not always) in Melbourne. So next year I want to focus on the shorter events, and the long jump, work on my speed and explosive power. I enjoy running fast and jumping more than anything, so I think it would be good to have a year where I did a lot more of this. I’m not a professional athlete, and am never going to get within an asses roar of a National Final over 400m, so you come to a stage and ask yourself is it worth pursuing with something, to maybe improve by a 0.2 of a second. When I think of all the additional work, on top of what I did last year, needed to get myself down to sub 54, or even just low 54, it’s just not worth that. And I’m at a stage where I want to enjoy my training, rather than have the fear over a session, feel like getting sick afterwards, and then only enjoying it, about an hour later when it is all done. 400m training is damn tough on the body and mind, and I’ve done it for 5 full seasons, so I feel entitled to want to not have to do this type of hard training next season.

I’ll post later about goals for the coming season, along with the approach I will take, but I wanted to post about my decision here, as it’s been on my mind a bit, and it’s best to sort of reflect, before looking forward.

Here’s a brief recap of the progression made over the 400m from the very start.

August 2010 – Two solo time trials at Belfield. High 67, and then a week or so later, a low 66.

March 2011 – First ever 400m race, having moved to Melbourne 3 months earlier. 63.9 hand timed, winning the race (one of only 2 actual 400m races I have won funny enough) against a field of women! Had done a few training sessions here and there with my new club, Richmond Harriers. But I wasn't yet properly dedicated.

Victorian 2011/12 Season – Set a goal to run sub 60. Trained solo, following Clyde Hart info I found online. Winter was fairly disrupted by travel. No gym work, but plenty of core. Hard training, but quite one dimensional, focusing almost entirely on speed endurance, even doing hills well into the summer. Ran 8 races, with 5 of them under 60 seconds. PB progressed to 61.8 hand timed, then 60.90, and 60.35 before Christmas. Broke 60 in January 2012 with 59.44. Brought this down further to 59.18 in the Victorian Decathlon, and finally to 58.68 at Victorian Championships, last race of the season.

Victorian 2012/13 Season – Set a goal of sub 56. Joined up with a training group and coach at the start of winter. Started gym work and lifting weights. Lots more track work than before, and had a real breakthrough year. Ran 13 races, running 56:xx on 4 occasions, and 57:xx on a further 4 occasions. PB progressed to 58.01 in October 2012, before making a massive leap to 56.28 two months later. After Christmas I improved this slightly to 56.26. Ran a couple more 56s, but the season fizzled out mildly with a few 57s. Missed my goal by 0.27 seconds.

Victorian 2013/14 Season – Set a goal of sub 55. Continued on with the same coach and training group, starting from a faster and stronger base. Job was made redundant in September, and couldn’t find a new sponsor, so I had the luxury of basically being a full time athlete for the entire season, the benefits of which I didn’t appreciate until long after. Had the best season of all, running 14 races, going 55:xx on 8 occasions, including 7 races in a row, and 56:xx in 5 of the other 6 races. PB progressed to 55.91 in October/November, before leaping to 55.00 just before Christmas. After Christmas I tried hard to get under 55, but came up short every time, running 55.59, 55.43, 55.58, 55.7h, 55.56 and 55.34, a streak of consistent results that I have only begun to truly appreciate since moving home. In addition I missed out on a place in the final of the Victorian Country Championships by 0.15, which I had targeted, so was fairly gutted with that. Missed my overall goal by an agonizing 0.01 seconds.

Irish 2014 Season – Set a goal of sub 55. Had no real winter build up, going from summer to summer, as I moved home from Australia, after 3 years and 3 months in Melbourne. Joined up with a new coach and training group, and started using spikes in training for the first time. In the dry Australian weather I’d always just use flats for training, but here I progressed to using spikes. Season started dreadfully with a couple of 57 second runs. It progressed from there and I managed to run sub 56 twice. But some bad luck with calf spasms looked set to ruin the season, before I managed to run 54.88 at Nationals, in perfect weather, and possibly the best run of my life. In total I raced on 9 occasions, and the conditions were good for all but 2 of them. I was nowhere near as consistent as I was in Melbourne, but I achieved my goal which was the most important thing.

Irish 2015 season – Set a goal of sub 54. Had my first Irish winter, and despite Irishtown’s unavailability it seemed to be going well. Ran my first indoor season, 5 races, all being 56:xx, with a best of 56.04, which I recorded twice. Then our coach had to leave Ireland, and the best runners left the group to go elsewhere. Irishtown was still out of action, which we didn’t get back until late July. The whole season was extremely challenging, but we battled on strongly. In total I ran 10 races, with the weather only being decent in 3 of them. Nippy temperatures, and strong winds would define a frustrating season. I ran sub 57 on 9 occasions, but sub 56 only twice, with a best of 55.61. Nationals summed up the frustrating season, with what was a good run, but any sort of a good time being scuppered by strong winds, and yet another 56. Missed my goal by 1.62 seconds, and was 0.73 seconds down on my PB. Proud of the efforts, but wasn’t to be.

Out of 60 races I have completed, 55 have been under 60 seconds, 50 have been sub 59 seconds, 45 have been under 58 seconds, 37 have been below 57 seconds, 29 have been under 56.5 seconds, 13 have been sub 56 seconds, with just one being sub 55 seconds.

I feel a bit emotional writing this, as I’ve sort of defined myself as a 400m runner for quite a long time now, but there’s always the option to come back to it if I wish. It’s a sabbatical for now, and we’ll see what happens from there. Most importantly I’ll still remain as a sprinter. I’ll still probably do a few 400m races next season to keep in touch with it, for some variety, and as training for the shorter distances. I’ll even have a mini goal of trying to run under 57 seconds on 3 occasions, to bring my tally of sub 57s up to an even 40, and once under 56.5 to bring my total of sub 56.5 second runs to an even 30, both of which would be a great milestones.

I am very proud of my 54.88 PB, and am pretty satisfied with having that as my PB. Everyone wants to run faster, and I'm not happy that I didn't improve last year, but starting off I never in my wildest dreams thought I'd run that fast, so I've very pleased with what I have managed.

Those are my thoughts and decisions for now. Who knows what the future may hold and what direction I may take, but for now, I’m happy with the decision.

Notwork Error

Would you ever consider coming out of retirement in the decatlon? I haven't been around here long but it's clear to me that it's an event you really enjoy and hold highly. I was just reading through your reports on the Victorian State championships(brilliant reports btw) and it sounds like everything you are looking for at the minute in my opinion. Great Craig and camraderie, all-round athleticism, explosiveness and a variety of events. I'm not sure how well supported it is in Ireland but I have seen some combined events results in passing, could be something to consider maybe?

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056139789/101/#post89297105

Chivito550

Notwork Error wrote: »

Would you ever consider coming out of retirement in the decatlon? I haven't been around here long but it's clear to me that it's an event you really enjoy and hold highly. I was just reading through your reports on the Victorian State championships(brilliant reports btw) and it sounds like everything you are looking for at the minute in my opinion. Great Craig and camraderie, all-round athleticism, explosiveness and a variety of events. I'm not sure how well supported it is in Ireland but I have seen some combined events results in passing, could be something to consider maybe?

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056139789/101/#post89297105

Your post reminded me of something I wanted to do, which was put all my decathlon reports into one place for easy access. I do like to read back on these ones every now and again, as they bring back some great memories. So here they all are, the 3 Victorian Championships I competed in, along with the National Irish Decathlon.

2012 Victorian Decathlon: Day 1 Day 2

2013 Victorian Decathlon: Day 1 Day 2

2014 Victorian Decathlon: Day 1 Day 2

2014 Irish Decathlon: Day 1 Day 2

Back to your post. I did the Irish decathlon last year, and being honest it was really badly organised, and it was a complete afterthought to the League Final going on that day. We had a good group of 7 lads competing and we had a lot of craic, so no issues there, despite the most dreadful weather. I had a good time, but logistically the decathlon is more of a pain here than Melbourne, as it usually takes place somewhere in the midlands, and I do not have the easy access to a pole for the pole vault like I did with my club in Melbourne. Some of my club mates in Melbourne who did the decathlon with me, would bring a pole along on the day for me, which made life easier for me.

The pole vault full stop is the biggest barrier. In Melbourne they'd let you come in as low as 1.20m, to score points. But here you had to start at 2m, which I had no hope of clearing.

In general I'm a fairly dreadful decathlete, but I never did them because I was good at them. I initially did them because it gave me an extra 400m race, and then found I really enjoyed the whole nature and spirit of the competition, which is why I kept coming back. In Melbourne there were always big numbers competing, and it would be organised very well, and held in high regard. But I was still a terrible decathlete. Being good at 3, 4 or 5 events doesn't cut the mustard in it. I'd be fairly ok at Day 1. I'd score good points in the 100m, long jump and the 400m. While not much of a shot putter, by getting it close to 7m, I'd still come out with around 250 points, likewise with the high jump with around 1.30ish. I think my Day 1 best was 1999 points.

But Day 2 was always a complete horror show. I couldn't bring myself to attempt the high hurdles. Stand in front of 10 of them and you'll know what I mean. My discus I'd get around 200 points. But then the pole vault would be a fair shocker, and the javelin is also a complete disaster of an event for me. I'd run a good (by decathlon standards) 1500m to restore pride at the end, and finish on a real high.

If I was still in Melbourne I would have kept doing the decathlon each year,, even though I wouldn't be training specifically. It is an event I'd never have wanted to miss. But here it's different. It's just not quite the same, and the numbers are poor (just 3 in our nationals this season). In addition if I wanted to train for the event specifically I'd need to be training almost like a full time athlete, to be able to improve over so many disciplines. Decathlon is the greatest event in track and field IMO, and it's only by seeing it at ground level that I truly appreciate how amazing these athletes are.

I can't see myself training to be a decathlete for the foreseeable future. The hurdles are too much of a barrier to a good overall performance, as is the pole vault. And with the 2m requirement for pole vault here, it pretty much kills my eagerness to do it this coming year. If the pole vault was less of a logistical disaster, and they let me come in really low, I'd probably do the Irish decathlon again this coming season.

But by doing the long jump along with my sprints this coming year, I'd like to have elements of being a multi-eventer in my training, by juggling a couple of disciplines. We'll see how that goes first. In the future then, again much like going back to 400m, who knows.

b0son

Chivito550 wrote: »

I want to stay competing in athletics and having fun, and if I proceed with the 400m next season, I don’t see that happening.

Maybe a change in coaching is in order? At the risk of offending, while your times have improved (and as you've approached your limit of fitness), your technique has not (from the videos you've posted). I would suggest that if you want to make meaningful improvements from here on in, you may need to consider improving your speed reserve, and for that, you need to do a lot of work on your mechanics (which look strained at the moment). Maybe a dedicated one on one sprint coach? I am surprised at how many masters guys in Aus have one....

In any case, look up Scott Reardon on youtube, there's a video (site wont let me post the URL) of his form progression from 2008 to 2014 (he's a Paralympian), it's nothing short of astounding and might demonstrate just how big a difference good form can make.

When I think of all the additional work, on top of what I did last year, needed to get myself down to sub 54, or even just low 54, it’s just not worth that.

See, if I were a coach (and clearly I'm not), I'd be reading that as 'I need a new program'. It's very common in weight training, when one plateaus, to mix up the program. Maybe you need the same? Maybe you're simply not progressing your training speeds enough?

What are your training staples, and run at what speeds? Like weight training, inadequate stimulus at your limit hampers the speed of your progress. Maybe you're simply training too slow?

Here’s a brief recap of the progression made over the 400m from the very start.

A progression I'm wildly jealous of.... to be running 54sec in only 5 years, that's a hell of an achievement, even if you think you're underperforming.

To put it in perspective, here's mine (from a totally sedentary starting base, 38yo):

2013/2014: first ever 400m - 84sec, then 72sec, 68sec, then a best for season of 64.3sec
2014/2015: all season long 64-65sec, and a 63.1sec late in season .. disappointing season
2015/2016: 63.0sec, and a month later a 61.8sec

They are grass times, so subtract anywhere up to 2-3sec (judging by a fellow competitor's tartan times who I am within a few tenths of). If they bother to mow the track, and now with daylight saving making the race run a little earlier (when its still a bit warmer), I'm hoping I can get into the 60s. No doubt I'd do better with a greater commitment to training but alas, not enough time around work.

I'm not trying to convince you to rethink... a break may be in order anyway. My suggestions might be helpful for whatever other sprinting you plan to do regardless. Don't for a second feel down on yourself, your achievement has been great motivation for me if nothing else

Chivito550

b0son wrote: »

Maybe a change in coaching is in order? At the risk of offending, while your times have improved (and as you've approached your limit of fitness), your technique has not (from the videos you've posted). I would suggest that if you want to make meaningful improvements from here on in, you may need to consider improving your speed reserve, and for that, you need to do a lot of work on your mechanics (which look strained at the moment). Maybe a dedicated one on one sprint coach? I am surprised at how many masters guys in Aus have one....

In any case, look up Scott Reardon on youtube, there's a video (site wont let me post the URL) of his form progression from 2008 to 2014 (he's a Paralympian), it's nothing short of astounding and might demonstrate just how big a difference good form can make.



See, if I were a coach (and clearly I'm not), I'd be reading that as 'I need a new program'. It's very common in weight training, when one plateaus, to mix up the program. Maybe you need the same? Maybe you're simply not progressing your training speeds enough?

What are your training staples, and run at what speeds? Like weight training, inadequate stimulus at your limit hampers the speed of your progress. Maybe you're simply training too slow?



A progression I'm wildly jealous of.... to be running 54sec in only 5 years, that's a hell of an achievement, even if you think you're underperforming.

To put it in perspective, here's mine (from a totally sedentary starting base, 38yo):

2013/2014: first ever 400m - 84sec, then 72sec, 68sec, then a best for season of 64.3sec
2014/2015: all season long 64-65sec, and a 63.1sec late in season .. disappointing season
2015/2016: 63.0sec, and a month later a 61.8sec

They are grass times, so subtract anywhere up to 2-3sec (judging by a fellow competitor's tartan times who I am within a few tenths of). If they bother to mow the track, and now with daylight saving making the race run a little earlier (when its still a bit warmer), I'm hoping I can get into the 60s. No doubt I'd do better with a greater commitment to training but alas, not enough time around work.

I'm not trying to convince you to rethink... a break may be in order anyway. My suggestions might be helpful for whatever other sprinting you plan to do regardless. Don't for a second feel down on yourself, your achievement has been great motivation for me if nothing else

My technique certainly needs improving, and it's something the coach is looking to improve, and hopefully focusing on the shorter stuff will allow me to work on this more. But at the same time, technique isn't something that changes overnight. It is a long process. And I think it's very untrue that my technique has not improved over the years.

Here are 2 videos from March 2012, during my first full track season back in 2011/12, 59.18 for 400m and 12.96 (+4.3) for 100m.

Here is a video from January 2013, 10 months on, a 56.26 for 400m. The technique is considerably better than the previous videos.

Here are 2 more videos from November 2013, a further 10 months on, a 12.67 (+0.8) for 100m, and 55.91 for 400m. These show the technique has improved further still.

I don't have a massive amount of video footage from races in Ireland, but they'd all be found in the last 5-10 pages on this log.

Every coach I've had has worked on technique with me. It's just extremely difficult to get every little detail right at the exact same time. There's a reason why Allyson Felix's technique is hailed above others, because it is that hard to achieve.

Just wondering why are you continuously racing on grass? Are you living out in a rural town? If you're in Sydney then there should be ample competition available to you. Or are you racing on the Australian Professional Running circuit (Stawell Gift type handicapped racing)? If not, then stop racing on grass, and run all your races on a proper track.

b0son

I run on grass because I only run club meets so far (our club is on grass) ... I'm not at a level yet where I want to compete at any bigger meets, at least until I get to sub-58.

Do you ever do any sort of runs on your own where you just practice different elements? Not against a clock, not trying to improve fitness, but just working on form and form alone?

Do your coaches do much technical work? eg. skip drills, high knees, running over cones/low hurdles, etc? As per Myles Splitz comments a few pages back, you're way too tense in the upper body - you seem like your main focus is your arm swing. Try for a more compact arm swing (have a look at Jesse Owens/Michael Johnson for how little is actually needed).

Add in some hip flexor work (both in terms of skip drills, and in the weight room) to help you with knee lift, this really sacrifices stride power. And experiment with extending the lower leg out, not down while still getting the foot to land underneath. I did this mid-60m a couple weeks back and found 0.25sec, it makes a hell of a difference.

Do you do weights alone or with the club? It doesn't seem that you're being pushed hard to improve that area. And some of your exercises don't seem like time well spent. I'd be inclined to focus on the basics, back squat, deadlift, and cleans. 3x5 reps, increment 5-10kg per set, improve 5kg per week. When you can no longer improve, start doing deloads, or switch to a more intermediate program like 5/3/1. I've been doing weights since I started running, and for comparison, I'm deadlifting over 2x bodyweight. You're younger than me, you should be too :P

Your endurance is great ... your 200m = 2x your 100m, and your 400m = 2x your 200m + 4sec. Its just about exactly where you want it to be, so the focus should be on improving your speed. I wish I was in that ballpark, but my aerobic fitness is dismal and I run the last 150m with a stomach cramp because its all lactate threshold for me.

I'm absolutely confident you could run sub-53 or better with better form. You only need to find mere tenths per 100m split... it's so much more achievable than you think! Don't give up

Chivito550

b0son wrote: »

Do you ever do any sort of runs on your own where you just practice different elements? Not against a clock, not trying to improve fitness, but just working on form and form alone?

Do your coaches do much technical work? eg. skip drills, high knees, running over cones/low hurdles, etc? As per Myles Splitz comments a few pages back, you're way too tense in the upper body - you seem like your main focus is your arm swing. Try for a more compact arm swing (have a look at Jesse Owens/Michael Johnson for how little is actually needed).

Add in some hip flexor work (both in terms of skip drills, and in the weight room) to help you with knee lift, this really sacrifices stride power. And experiment with extending the lower leg out, not down while still getting the foot to land underneath. I did this mid-60m a couple weeks back and found 0.25sec, it makes a hell of a difference.

Do you do weights alone or with the club? It doesn't seem that you're being pushed hard to improve that area. And some of your exercises don't seem like time well spent. I'd be inclined to focus on the basics, back squat, deadlift, and cleans. 3x5 reps, increment 5-10kg per set, improve 5kg per week. When you can no longer improve, start doing deloads, or switch to a more intermediate program like 5/3/1. I've been doing weights since I started running, and for comparison, I'm deadlifting over 2x bodyweight. You're younger than me, you should be too :P

Your endurance is great ... your 200m = 2x your 100m, and your 400m = 2x your 200m + 4sec. Its just about exactly where you want it to be, so the focus should be on improving your speed. I wish I was in that ballpark, but my aerobic fitness is dismal and I run the last 150m with a stomach cramp because its all lactate threshold for me.

I'm absolutely confident you could run sub-53 or better with better form. You only need to find mere tenths per 100m split... it's so much more achievable than you think! Don't give up

Thanks for your post. I'll take all your points on board and consider each one as I plan things going forward. But as my old coach in Melbourne once told me "Beware of having too many advisers", so for that reason I'll leave it at that, rather than answer each question specifically, trying to justify my training, as that will only drive me mad.

I'm focusing on the shorter stuff this year which will give me more time to focus on technique. It's harder when you have to do sets of 300m reps, and split 400s to have your technique down to perfection. But speed endurance must never be compensated, otherwise there's no point in even trying to attempt 400m.

b0son wrote: »

I run on grass because I only run club meets so far (our club is on grass) ... I'm not at a level yet where I want to compete at any bigger meets, at least until I get to sub-58.

The advise I would give is to get this approach out of your head. You are making track races more of a big deal than they are. I know the Sydney interclub setup is not as good as in Melbourne (where literally an athlete of any standard can get a competitive race) but I'm sure there are plenty slower than you racing in track meets. Racing on grass is fairly pointless IMO, unless you are training for the pro races (worth looking into by the way).

Given the knowledge you possess, I'm a bit surprised you are not running much faster. Something seems amiss. Maybe you are not placing enough importance on speed endurance. If you are a 400m runner you shouldn't be falling off the wagon at 250m. That's what happens to 100m runners running 400s.

Best of luck with the coming season anyway. If you are ever in Melbourne you should check out the AV Shield. What a great way to get stuck into track and field in a very welcoming environment. Would also be interesting if you set up a log here.

b0son

Dont underestimate the role a few years of jogging has played in your own track readiness. With aerobic performance said to contribute anywhere up to 50% of 400m performance, having that up your sleeve goes a long way.

I couldn't even jog more than 500m when I started, so I have a bit of a mountain to climb in that respect. For comparison, I do 800m in 2m51 and would be lucky to do a 5k in 25min.

You're right about the 100m runner trying to do 400m, I have poor speed endurance, but its coming on, albeit slowly. Things just take longer when you start from zero unfortunately.

Chivito550

b0son wrote: »

Dont underestimate the role a few years of jogging has played in your own track readiness. With aerobic performance said to contribute anywhere up to 50% of 400m performance, having that up your sleeve goes a long way.

I couldn't even jog more than 500m when I started, so I have a bit of a mountain to climb in that respect. For comparison, I do 800m in 2m51 and would be lucky to do a 5k in 25min.

You're right about the 100m runner trying to do 400m, I have poor speed endurance, but its coming on, albeit slowly. Things just take longer when you start from zero unfortunately.

The 400m is very aerobic I agree. But my 4:07 marathon would have had absolutely no benefit with regards my track performances to come, other than keeping me at a normal healthy weight, which I've always been at, despite complete inactivity sports wise in college.

What are your 100 and 200 times? There might be a chance you are targeting the wrong event.

Also, nearly 4am in Sydney. You're up late

b0son

Chivito550 wrote: »

What are your 100 and 200 times? There might be a chance you are targeting the wrong event.

60m - 8.1sec
100m - 13.1sec
200m - 27.0sec

I know they'd all be substantially lower on tartan given the times other guys in our club have done elsewhere. But regardless, my speed endurance lets me down, so I do 6x200 off short rest and 3x300 at race speed to work on that.

Also, nearly 4am in Sydney. You're up late

Zzzzzzzzzzz

Chivito550

b0son wrote: »

60m - 8.1sec
100m - 13.1sec
200m - 27.0sec

I know they'd all be substantially lower on tartan given the times other guys in our club have done elsewhere. But regardless, my speed endurance lets me down, so I do 6x200 off short rest and 3x300 at race speed to work on that.



Zzzzzzzzzzz

Are those hand times or electronic? You'd want to add on around 0.3 to each if hand times.

b0son

electronic

Chivito550

So I’ve started back training as of this Monday just gone, so it’s time to write about my plans for the season, goals, and reasoning behind the change in focus. I’ve already posted about why I want to take a break from 400m training, so I won’t write anymore on that here. But a major thing that has been lacking since I moved home is variety in terms of competition. I’ve always trained as a 400m runner, but in Melbourne that never stopped me from trying out other distances and disciplines. The 400 was always the big one, but I had other events to look forward to too, even if I was not specifically training for them.

The following table will illustrate what I am talking about. The first 3 seasons are in Melbourne where I competed in a high number of events. The last 2 seasons are in Ireland, where there is a significant drop off in the number of events I competed in.

|2011/12|2012/13|2013/14|2014|2015
100m|6|6|7|1|2
200m|4|8|7|3|1
400m|8|13|14|9|10
4x100m||2|||
4x400m|1||||
800m|3|5|7||
1500m/Mile|2|1|2|1|
Long Jump|6|2|4|1|3
Triple Jump|3||||
High Jump|2|2|2|1|
Pole Vault||1|1||
Shot Putt|2|6|5|1|
Discus Throw|2|1|2|1|
Javelin Throw|2|1|1|1|
Decathlon|2|1.5|1.5|1|
TOTAL|43|49.5|53.5|20|16

Basically the 400m became a sort of tunnel vision goal once I moved home, and it was the only one that mattered. This came from the different culture here. In Melbourne you’d be expected to turn out for your club and do a few events, while here, without that interclub setup, there was 1) very little incentive to try other events, and 2) the general attitude I picked up from others fairly fast was that I should only be thinking about my main event. So that is what I did.

Because of all this, athletics has been less fun. I don’t want it to be less fun. And I don’t want to always be thinking back to how much more enjoyable the experience was in Melbourne. I like nostalgia, but I want to enjoy it here to a similar degree. I know it will never be the same, which is fine, but I’d like to try recreate a similar level of competitive fun that I had Down Under.

It must be acknowledged that the Victorian seasons are longer than the Irish ones, but even allowing for this, the above stats are as clear as day. And despite all that single-minded focus on the 400m, I didn’t exactly go much quicker. 54.88 in Ireland V 55.00 in Australia, both performances in ideal conditions.

Without an AV Shield type environment I don’t think it’s possible to have variety in my athletics if I focus on the 400m. I could do this in Australia, but it seems harder here, due to the shorter season, and for other reasons I won’t bother getting into, as I’ve done it to death. So to really start enjoying the sport again, and to get the variety I’d like, the best thing to do is to take a step back from the 400m, and focus on the shorter and more explosive events. These events take less out of you, so you can easily attempt 2-3 per meet. This is the type of thing I want. Showing up to a track meet and running 1 race and going home isn’t really my scene. I’ve done it on a fair few occasions in Australia, don’t get me wrong, but it wouldn’t be the norm. Here it was the norm. I also don’t like having all my eggs in one basket. It can get frustrating when you don’t hit the targets then.

Primary Goals:

So this coming year I will be focusing on 4 events:

- Long Jump
- 60m
- 100m
- 200m

My goals are as follows:

Long Jump:

Current PB: 4.95m
Target: 5.50m

60m:

Current PB: 8.05
Target: 7.99

100m:

Current PB: 12.58
Target: 12.39

200m:

Current PB: 25.42
Target: 24.99

I will stick with the same gym programme as last year, but will adapt them to incorporate jumping plyometrics. In addition I plan to do long jumping sessions on the track. I’m not sure yet whether this will be once every week, or every 2 weeks. In general there will be less volume in my training, and more of a focus on speed, quality and technique. I’m going to be more flexible with regards when and where I train too, so I keep a balance. I’m also looking forward to enjoying my training more. I love sprinting short and fast, and really enjoy jumping, so I can foresee this coming year to be more enjoyable than sets of 300s and split 400s, which frankly I need a break from. I’ll still need to be fit obviously, particularly as I want to run the 200m, but I won’t need the same volume, and consequently won’t have the same level of fear beforehand, and feeling dreadful afterwards.

The above goals are very challenging, and I’m not sure how realistic it is to hit them all, but it’s good to set challenging, yet achievable goals like that. Having 4 goals is a good way of not having all my eggs in one basket. The 100 and 200 can be heavily impacted by headwinds, so if I solely focused on the sub 25 second 200m for example, it could begin to get very frustrating. Having a wide range of events, which all complement each other, will cut down on such frustration.

The long jump is something I’m really looking forward to. It was only late on last season, when I started doing some long jump competitions, that I actually started to enjoy things more, so I’d like to put a good deal of focus on it this year and see how much further I can go.

Secondary goals:

Outside of these 4 events, I’ll do a few 400m races, to keep in touch with the distance, and hopefully run sub 57 on 3 occasions, to bring my total of sub 57s to 40, which would be a great milestone for me. I’d also like to try a few other events when the opportunity arises, although I won’t be training specifically for them. It’s been a few years since I’ve tried the Triple Jump, and it would be good to have a shot or two at it, though not too much as it is murder on the body from what I hear. I’d like to have more attempts at the Shot and Discus for fun too. I’d love to have a go at the relays, but being in such a big club there is very little hope of that happening. I didn’t take advantage of the opportunities to run relays in Melbourne as much as perhaps I should have.

I probably won’t do a decathlon here, for reasons I have posted a few days ago, but there is the possibility of doing the National indoor pentathlon, as there is no pole vault, and it’s only 5 hurdles I have to get over rather than 10. Getting over a few hurdles like that would be a nice fear for me to conquer, but I won’t be making any decisions on that for now.

I very much am happy with my PB over 400m. But I’d like to develop a nice range of PBs, so I’m not a one-trick pony, so this coming year is a good chance to do that. And sure even the best in the world have taken a year to explore new areas. Christian Taylor, Triple Jumper, spent a down year doing 400m, and Ashton Eaton spent last year doing 400m Hurdles.

So that’s all for now. I’m sure things will change slightly as the year progresses, but they are my plans for now going forward.

Oiriallach

Interesting that the inter-club scene in Melbourne seems to work so well.

Sometimes I think that one of the reasons for the low profile of inter-club competition in Ireland may be that our clubs vary greatly in size/strength. If you're in one of the big clubs, it can be tough to get a place on their National League team. If you're in one of the smaller clubs, the club probably won't have enough senior athletes to enter a team in the National League.

I know the AAI allows composite and county teams and this does help the weaker clubs, but sometimes even entire counties struggle to field half-decent teams. I also wonder would some of the bigger clubs have enough athletes to enter a second (or even a third) team, but I'm not sure if the current rules allow this?

Given your experience in Australia, what do you think would be the best way forward? Do the clubs there vary greatly in size/strength as they do here?

Chivito550

Oiriallach wrote: »

Interesting that the inter-club scene in Melbourne seems to work so well.

Sometimes I think that one of the reasons for the low profile of inter-club competition in Ireland may be that our clubs vary greatly in size/strength. If you're in one of the big clubs, it can be tough to get a place on their National League team. If you're in one of the smaller clubs, the club probably won't have enough senior athletes to enter a team in the National League.

I know the AAI allows composite and county teams and this does help the weaker clubs, but sometimes even entire counties struggle to field half-decent teams. I also wonder would some of the bigger clubs have enough athletes to enter a second (or even a third) team, but I'm not sure if the current rules allow this?

Given your experience in Australia, what do you think would be the best way forward? Do the clubs there vary greatly in size/strength as they do here?

Clubs vary in size and strength in Melbourne too. But there's only about 60-70 clubs in Victoria in total, and all but a few take part in the AV Shield track and field interclub. I guess the difference between there and here, is that a small club there would be much bigger than a small club here. There's some clubs here that are remarkably tiny, or only focus on distance running.

Here's an email I sent back in 2013, when some people were looking for suggestions to improve National League. I didn't get a reply, despite taking so much time out of my day to write it, the less said about that the better. I'll quote it here and then expand slightly afterwards:

I'll try explain how the AV Shield works as best I can. It's hard to properly help being on the outside looking in but hopefully it will be of some use anyway.

There have been some changes made of late, some of which I don't believe to be good ones, but as they havent been seen in action yet I'll go with how it has been done for the two track seasons I have been here.

Basically the track season in the state of Victoria is structured as follows, starting in October, finishing in April:

October - February: AV Shield (main interclub competition) - 12 rounds plus final
November - March: High Velocity Club - 6 rounds - Sprint, horizontal jumps and hurdles specialist meets
November - March: Vic Milers Club - 5 rounds - Middle distance specialist meets
November - March: Rare Air Club - around 10 rounds - Vertical jumps specialist meets
November - March: AV Throwers - 6ish rounds - Throws specialist meets
February - April: The track classics around Australia for the very best athletes in the country
April: Nationals

The AV Shield is more about grassroots and the club. You do get lots of national qualified athletes running in them regularly, and occasionally the likes of Tamsyn Lewis, but the competition is more about the club than the individual. The specialist meets are there specifically for the better athletes, along with the National Series track classics at the end of the season.

The AV Shield is split into 7 regions (though this is now changing), with 4 in Melbourne and then 3 regional Victorian divisions. Within each division there are a range of leagues: For example Men's Div 1, Men's Div 2, Men's Div 3, Women's Div 1 & Div 2, Men's O40's, Men's U18 etc etc all the way down to U14. So basically the juvenille's, senior athletes and masters all compete together. Everyone runs in races that are graded and then at the end of the day results are put into various caretgories depending on that person's age etc.

There are 12 rounds, with 2 programmes which alternate every other week. So in round 1 you will have a 100m and a 400m on the programme for example, while in Round 2 you will have the 200m and 800m. Anybody and everybody can run and jump in whatever they want. You can do as little as 1 or as much as 12 events in one day if you please. Depending on the division and the discipline anywhere between 2-6 athletes from each club can score points in each event. In field events and hurdles it is just 2, but in most track events it is 6 athletes for division 1 and 4 for division 2. I think this is one area where Ireland could improve on. Having just one athlete score points for a club per each event sort of excludes a lot of people from doing the events they want to do IMO.

With their being 12 rounds, the AV Shield is the backbone of the first 4 months of the track season with competition almost every weekend. While 12 rounds is ambitious, I think more rounds in Ireland could be a good idea. Starting in early april, and having maybe 5-6 rounds and then a final to take place in early July, about 3 weeks before nationals, could be the way to go. They've now moved the AV Shield final to the week after Nationals which is IMO silly, but in previous years the Shield Final was in mid February, 2-3 weeks before the Victorian Championships, thus being a nice build up for a lot of the state's top athletes, while the pinnacle for perhaps the lesser athletes.

In the final again you have up to 6 athletes scoring points per event per club, meaning that everybody matters, rather than a no-hoper like myself, who is eager to compete and improve, being lobbed into the walk or hammer to score points, which is no doubt what would happen if I was with a big club back home.

It would be hard to copy the system here. One there are not as many clubs here in Victoria, than there are in Ireland, for whatever reason so it is easier to manage. Secondly there are no provincial and county championships down here like in Ireland, so things like that can be a barrier to making an interclub competition in Ireland the basis of the first half of the track season. But definitely I think there are elements which can be taken from the AV Shield.

1) Start the competition earlier in the season
2) More rounds
3) More than 1 athlete scoring points per event per club
4) With the exception of the final, allowing athletes to run in whatever event they see fit, and if they end up not being in the scoring 4-6 athletes for their club, they still get a time recorded, just with no points
5) End the competition earlier, well before nationals, so it can be a build up, rather than an afterthought.

I'm sure there's a lot more but that's all I can think of right now. Check out this link to find out more about how the competition works etc.

http://www.athsvic.org.au/competitions-info/av-shield

As I said far from perfect, and indeed Australia is not exactly thriving in world athletics right now, but from a grassroots point of view it is going pretty well I think, and that's what interclub is about IMO, the club, and grassroots athletics.

I think what could work is to make the National League the backbone of the season. Rebrand the name of it even, to call it something else.

- Have 6 rounds plus a final
- Divide it up into 4 regions (Munster, Connacht, Ulster and Leinster). The top 2 in each province per division makes the National League Final. The winners are Provincial League Champions
- Incorporate the Provincial Championships into 2 of the 6 rounds in each province
- Have 2-3 venues in each province, and rotate every second or third round
- Have alternative programmes. So for Programme 1 you have 100m, 400m, 1500m, LJ, HJ, 4x100m etc, and for Programme 2 you have 200m, 800m, 3000/5000m, TJ, PV, 4x400m etc. Have Programme 1 on rounds 1, 3 and 5. Have Programme 2 on rounds 2, 4 and 6.

Oiriallach

That sounds interesting - thanks for explaining it in some detail. However I think it's unlikely we'll ever see such a radical change in the Irish competitive structure, as it has been largely unchanged for as long as I can remember (and it's over 36 years ago since I first joined a club!).

But, given your decision to focus on the 60/100, 200 & LJ for the next year, you should be able to compete in more than one event in a lot of your meets, something which is not often possible when you're racing the 400. So hopefully you'll enjoy that and it will all work out well!

Timmaay

Chivito550 wrote: »

- Have 6 rounds plus a final
- Divide it up into 4 regions (Munster, Connacht, Ulster and Leinster). The top 2 in each province per division makes the National League Final. The winners are Provincial League Champions
- Incorporate the Provincial Championships into 2 of the 6 rounds in each province
- Have 2-3 venues in each province, and rotate every second or third round
- Have alternative programmes. So for Programme 1 you have 100m, 400m, 1500m, LJ, HJ, 4x100m etc, and for Programme 2 you have 200m, 800m, 3000/5000m, TJ, PV, 4x400m etc. Have Programme 1 on rounds 1, 3 and 5. Have Programme 2 on rounds 2, 4 and 6.

Would the above idea be more palatable to the powers that be if we approached it from the current provincial setup? One could probably even work out team results from last yrs provincial Championships ha, basically if you take part in an event you get a score for your club (based on finish position obv). The likes of such could just form the bases of what is done in the Victora league. I just think that its a fruitless cause trying to shoehorn the current National League into what you described above ha, it's too hard to get them to change anything about it as is, not to mind such a radical change.

Chivito550

Timmaay wrote: »

Would the above idea be more palatable to the powers that be if we approached it from the current provincial setup? One could probably even work out team results from last yrs provincial Championships ha, basically if you take part in an event you get a score for your club (based on finish position obv). The likes of such could just form the bases of what is done in the Victora league. I just think that its a fruitless cause trying to shoehorn the current National League into what you described above ha, it's too hard to get them to change anything about it as is, not to mind such a radical change.

Yeh no chance of anything changing drastically. They could easily incorporate team competitions into Provincial Championships and Graded Meets though, by giving points based on performances in each event. It might encourage more people to take part and try different events. They do this at the Victorian Country Track and Field Championships. It's a championship like any other, with each athlete competing for individual honours, but these performances are used to calculate the champion club, who win a nice shiny trophy, and bragging rights over their other local clubs. Not that hard to do really.