The Pipe

mcmurphy995

Watched "The Pipe" a few weeks back < brought tears to my eyes , what does the rest of Mayo think ????

Avns1s

Is this thread more propaganda for the Shell to Sea shower, like the film is?

Bob the Builder

Avns1s wrote: »

Is this thread more propaganda for the Shell to Sea shower, like the film is?

So what do you think of The Winds that Shakes the Barley or the The Hunger?
There's two perspectives on this story. (and probably many more if the truth be known)
If you're on the opposite perspective, then get over it.

Showing no rational feelings for the people of North Mayo at all - Shell are entitled to take millions of euro worth of our natural resources.

They're not creating any more jobs than if we had done it ourselves. They will leave the place in 10-20 years time in an absolute mess and when they revoke all their operations in that area, and will leave 1000's of people unemployed in that area, such as what Dell done in Limerick.

Coillte_Bhoy

Avns1s wrote: »

Is this thread more propaganda for the Shell to Sea shower, like the film is?

...

Esroh

Bob the Builder wrote: »

So what do you think of The Winds that Shakes the Barley or the The Hunger?
There's two perspectives on this story. (and probably many more if the truth be known)
If you're on the opposite perspective, then get over it.

Showing no rational feelings for the people of North Mayo at all - Shell are entitled to take millions of euro worth of our natural resources.

They're not creating any more jobs than if we had done it ourselves. They will leave the place in 10-20 years time in an absolute mess and when they revoke all their operations in that area, and will leave 1000's of people unemployed in that area, such as what Dell done in Limerick.

They are going nowhere,This is just the first of many natural resoures that will be stripped from off the North west coast. Ireland is(was) actually holder of some of the worlds biggest stocks of natural resources but it will now all belong to Europe and the IMF as we will not be able to pay off our national debt.So they take what they want.
Nigeria was once potentially the richest country in Africe re its natural resources. Along came the IMF and now its a basket case

oscarBravo

Bob the Builder wrote: »

They're not creating any more jobs than if we had done it ourselves.

...with our extensive experience in exploring for and recovering fossil fuels?

We can't grit roads or run a health service. How the hell do you think we're going to dig natural gas from a deep sea well?

Bob the Builder

oscarBravo wrote: »

...with our extensive experience in exploring for and recovering fossil fuels?

We can't grit roads or run a health service. How the hell do you think we're going to dig natural gas from a deep sea well?

One in the hand is better than two in the bush. I'd rather us running it half wrong than them running it half right.

oscarBravo

Bob the Builder wrote: »

One in the hand is better than two in the bush. I'd rather us running it half wrong than them running it half right.

Considering the amount that Shell spent exploring for that gas - do you think we would have spent that?

If we were currently spending billions of euros of taxpayers' money on a possibly fruitless search for oil and gas off the west coast, do you think that such spending would survive the current crisis?

If a private company hadn't taken the risks involved in the exploration, do you think the homes and businesses of Mayo towns would have access to a natural gas infrastructure?

bc dub

oscarBravo wrote: »

If a private company hadn't taken the risks involved in the exploration, do you think the homes and businesses of Mayo towns would have access to a natural gas infrastructure?

Ireland is bigger then mayo.

Bob the Builder

oscarBravo wrote: »

Considering the amount that Shell spent exploring for that gas - do you think we would have spent that?

No. But we shouldn't just give it away for that reason.

If a private company hadn't taken the risks involved in the exploration, do you think the homes and businesses of Mayo towns would have access to a natural gas infrastructure?

Actually, the 'idea' of piping gas to towns only came about after the Shell to Sea protests.

I don't agree with how they went about protesting against it. But neither Shell nor Shell to Sea can claim that either of their hands are clean on this. And as for the government, there was a number of key decisions that were wrongly made.

oscarBravo

bc dub wrote: »

Ireland is bigger then mayo.

True, and the gas from Corrib will be supplied to the national gas grid. What's your point?

Bob the Builder wrote: »

No. But we shouldn't just give it away for that reason.

I accept that we could have gotten a better deal. If that conversation could be divorced from the "Shell to Sea" hysteria, it's just possible that it could be an intelligent and fruitful one.

Actually, the 'idea' of piping gas to towns only came about after the Shell to Sea protests.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc?

I don't agree with how they went about protesting against it. But neither Shell nor Shell to Sea can claim that either of their hands are clean on this. And as for the government, there was a number of key decisions that were wrongly made.

I won't disagree. But without multinational oil exploration firms, the gas would still be under the sea bed for generations to come.

MeerKat17

I haven't seen the film yet but can't wait!
It's shameful what has been done to our country, I don't understand why more people aren't outraged by this whole situation. There is reportedly 5.4 trillion euro's worth of oil and gas off the west coast of Ireland, which was GIVEN away for pittance to Shell to line the pockets of slimy fat cats such as Charles Haughey and the rest of their so called "Republican Party". Shell doesn't have to pay any royalties to Ireland for raping us of our natural resources. We don't even get a better deal in our oil and gas consumption. Nothing. Shell get it, they keep the money, steal the oil, and bleed us dry. Anyone who was involved in this so called negotiation should be hung, drawn and quartered for all to see. Prison would be too good for them.

As if that is not enough to piss people off, Shell have a terrible track record for health and safety not so it is no wonder residence in the near by vicinity have great concerns for the saftey and well being of their families. They have the right to petition the pipeline and what is being done to them for doing so? Of course, they are being arrested. We don't have freedom of speech in Ireland when multinationals are involved.
And then to insult our intelligence further, when the people of Ireland did cop on and start to boycott Shell's petrol stations (Statoil), what did Shell do....they changed their name to Topaz! Of course! Because we're all a bunch of thick stupid Paddy's we'll definitely fall for that one. :mad:

The whole system is corrupt and disgusting. Anyone who can argue in Shell's favour should be ashamed of themselves.

Bob the Builder

oscarBravo wrote: »

I accept that we could have gotten a better deal. If that conversation could be divorced from the "Shell to Sea" hysteria, it's just possible that it could be an intelligent and fruitful one. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc?

I think me and you are both more or less in agreement on this debate, apart from me probably having a small bit more sympathy for the Shell to Sea campaigners.

Shell to Sea would have had a much more successful and less divided campaign had they better lobbied the politicians, better lobbied shell, dealt better with the media and prepared a shopping list of things that they wanted "You give us X, Y, and move your pipeline over here (Z) and we'll go away"

I won't disagree. But without multinational oil exploration firms, the gas would still be under the sea bed for generations to come.

I just shudder to think of what sort deal went on behind the scenes that we haven't seen yet. We got ripped off by Shell and any sort of decent government would have ensured we would have got a fair deal from Shell when we were handing it to them.

MeerKat17 wrote: »

I haven't seen the film yet but can't wait!
It's shameful what has been done to our country, I don't understand why more people aren't outraged by this whole situation. There is reportedly 5.4 trillion euro's worth of oil and gas off the west coast of Ireland, which was GIVEN away for pittance to Shell to line the pockets of slimy fat cats such as Charles Haughey and the rest of their so called "Republican Party". Shell doesn't have to pay any royalties to Ireland for raping us of our natural resources. We don't even get a better deal in our oil and gas consumption. Nothing. Shell get it, they keep the money, steal the oil, and bleed us dry. Anyone who was involved in this so called negotiation should be hung, drawn and quartered for all to see. Prison would be too good for them.

As if that is not enough to piss people off, Shell have a terrible track record for health and safety not so it is no wonder residence in the near by vicinity have great concerns for the saftey and well being of their families. They have the right to petition the pipeline and what is being done to them for doing so? Of course, they are being arrested. We don't have freedom of speech in Ireland when multinationals are involved.
And then to insult our intelligence further, when the people of Ireland did cop on and start to boycott Shell's petrol stations (Statoil), what did Shell do....they changed their name to Topaz! Of course! Because we're all a bunch of thick stupid Paddy's we'll definitely fall for that one. :mad:

Firstly, I think the 5.4 trillion figure obscures the reality. Shell have been given access to only a portion of that, somewhere around 1 billion euro worth of gas. Which will in reality, skyrocket in price if countries such as Russia restrict their supply.

I believe Shell have to pay certain taxes to the Irish Government but I am not aware of what those are. I wouldn't be surprised if the govt have paid it already in Garda overtime.

As for health and safety, such is the level of fear that Shell have of health and safety in Mayo, there is now regular use of breathalysers in their facilities, random drug testing, immediate suspension for non-wearing of hard hats. However, their Health and Safety record in places like Africa, where they have non-directly contributed to executions is something I hope they will never be able to exercise their power with here.

As for changing the name from Shell to Topaz, I, too, stopped getting my fuel there for a while, but time is a great healer.

The whole system is corrupt and disgusting. Anyone who can argue in Shell's favour should be ashamed of themselves.

It's a debate. I think everybody has a right to debate what their opinions are without feeling ashamed.

bc dub

oscarBravo wrote: »

True, and the gas from Corrib will be supplied to the national gas grid. What's your point?

my point was that as it may well and be beneficial to the homes and businesses of Mayo that a 'private company' took the risks involved in the exploration, allowing them to have access to a natural gas infrastructure, there is a more to ireland then just mayo.

we will all benefit from the gas, similarly to the way shell will benefit from selling it back to us. the only monetary winners here, will be shell. not the citizens of mayo and not the citizens of ireland.

oscarBravo

MeerKat17 wrote: »

There is reportedly 5.4 trillion euro's worth of oil and gas off the west coast of Ireland...

Source?

They have the right to petition the pipeline and what is being done to them for doing so? Of course, they are being arrested.

Give me one example of someone who was arrested for "petitioning".

And then to insult our intelligence further, when the people of Ireland did cop on and start to boycott Shell's petrol stations (Statoil), what did Shell do....they changed their name to Topaz!

Shell, Statoil and Topaz are three completely different companies.

The level of misinformation that characterises this "debate" is unreal, sometimes.

MeerKat17

Source?
There are various sources, 5.4 trillion is the largest sum I've seen, but the minimum guaranteed amount of oil and gas off the west coast of Ireland is 450billion euro's worth. There are numerous reliable sources for this including a report from the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, just look it up yourself.

Ever heard of the Rossport 5? 5 men JAILED for protesting against the shell pipeline being built through their land without their permission. I am actually shocked you even asked for proof of arrests seeing as it is so widely publicized about the solidarity camp in Rossport and the amount of people who have being arrested for protesting against what Shell are doing there.

Topaz and Statoil are all owned by shell. Statoil, who are owned by Shell, were boycotted for a while after the whole Rossport 5 fiasco, and subsequently changed their name to Topaz in order to fool people into thinking it was a new oil company. Which it is not.

Kristopherus

Meerkat, get your facts right. Statoil is 67% owned by the Norwegian Govt. Topaz is an Irish-owned oil distribution company.

oscarBravo

MeerKat17 wrote: »

Source?
There are various sources, 5.4 trillion is the largest sum I've seen, but the minimum guaranteed amount of oil and gas off the west coast of Ireland is 450billion euro's worth. There are numerous reliable sources for this including a report from the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, just look it up yourself.

Does the DCENR report mention the 5.4 trillion figure?

Ever heard of the Rossport 5? 5 men JAILED for protesting against the shell pipeline being built through their land without their permission.

No, they were jailed for contempt of court.

I am actually shocked you even asked for proof of arrests seeing as it is so widely publicized about the solidarity camp in Rossport and the amount of people who have being arrested for protesting against what Shell are doing there.

Again, no: they've been arrested for illegal activity in the course of the protests.

Topaz and Statoil are all owned by shell. Statoil, who are owned by Shell, were boycotted for a while after the whole Rossport 5 fiasco, and subsequently changed their name to Topaz in order to fool people into thinking it was a new oil company. Which it is not.

It really would help your case if you could introduce even one single point into this debate that vaguely resembles a true fact.

You're entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts.

MeerKat17

oscarBravo wrote: »

Again, no: they've been arrested for illegal activity in the course of the protests.

What exactly did they do that was illegal?

Look, I regret using the 5.4 Trillion figure, in truth, no one knows how much oil and gas is off the west coast of Ireland as it hasn't been extracted yet. But the guesstimates range from 420 Billion to 5.4 Trillion, whatever way you look at it is is a lot of money that could be used to generate revenue for our country, especially in times like these, but its not. I don't agree with what Shell are doing, I don't like how the law favours mutli nationals over Irish citizen's, and I don't like what is being done to the people of Rossport.

Avns1s

MeerKat17 wrote: »

What exactly did they do that was illegal?

Look, I regret using the 5.4 Trillion figure, in truth, no one knows how much oil and gas is off the west coast of Ireland as it hasn't been extracted yet. But the guesstimates range from 420 Billion to 5.4 Trillion, whatever way you look at it is is a lot of money that could be used to generate revenue for our country, especially in times like these, but its not. I don't agree with what Shell are doing, I don't like how the law favours mutli nationals over Irish citizen's, and I don't like what is being done to the people of Rossport.

Most of the people of Rossport have no objection to what Shell is doing. A small few do, and not all of them are in any way affected by what is going on.

My take on all of this is simple. Sure, we should (with the benefit of hindsight) have got more for the gas reserves but at the time a deal was done, nobody knew what was there and if there had been a less lucrative deal for Shell, there would be no exploration and no gas which at a minimum, gives us some independence in terms of energy supply.

It has also brought gas and hopefully economic development and job creation to many towns that would otherwise not have seen it. It will also bring Corporation and other taxes to the Government. It has brought a very significant investment to the Erris region most of it in terms of employment, which the region would never have been likely to see.

The deal that was done by Ray Burke et al, is akin to buying a house some say 20 years ago and then feeling aggrieved at the peak of the Celtic Tiger that you didnt get enough for it. It was the value of it, given the information that existed at that time.

Finally (for now) while I have sympathy for those genuinely affected by the route of the pipeline, I do not think the interests of a few should outweigh the interests of the Irish people as a whole and it is in the Irish interest that this gas is brought ashore as soon as possible.

mcmurphy995

Im a moderate mayo man who is disgusted that we have let this situation develope just because a few clowns put off regular folks from getting involved and in relation to the one sided nature of the movie (assuming you actually have watched it ) shell had been invited manty times to take part and add their side , so watch the movie and look at the local people who im sure you can identify with and post back !

Avns1s

mcmurphy995 wrote: »

Im a moderate mayo man who is disgusted that we have let this situation develope just because a few clowns put off regular folks from getting involved and in relation to the one sided nature of the movie (assuming you actually have watched it ) shell had been invited manty times to take part and add their side , so watch the movie and look at the local people who im sure you can identify with and post back !

Sorry, I could watch the film over and over till I go to the grave and I wouldn't be able to identify with the "local people". The reason for this is simple. By nature, I am positive and progressive, interested in moving with the times, availing of anything that makes life better and improves economic and social development, in the hope that the place I was born, bred and reared in, might be a bit better for my children and theirs in turn.

I am not narrow minded, caught up in history, politics, parochialism and negativity nor do I think a few negative, narrow minded people should be able to hold a country and its future generations to ransom. So no, you're quite wrong, I wouldn't be able to identify with those local people you speak of. I want a place where I can grow old in the company of my children, made possible by them being able to have decent jobs in our native county. These "local" you want us to identify with are preventing an improvement in the possibility of this happening not just by the Shell issue but by the way they have managed to portray the county and the last place you should go if your trying to develop a project.

I cannot tell you just how much I resent that!!

bc dub

"Explain to future generations it was good for the economy when they can't farm the land, breathe the air and drink the water"

Avns1s

bc dub wrote: »

"Explain to future generations it was good for the economy when they can't farm the land, breathe the air and drink the water"

Can you explain how you got to that conclusion? Backed up with fact and examples please.

bc dub

sure...

google
copy
paste

Avns1s

bc dub wrote: »

sure...

google
copy
paste

I rest my case!!

bc dub

phew

mcmurphy995

I was looking for comments from folks who have actually watch the pipe and not just commenting on percieved notions from other areas

Avns1s

Oh, my sincere apologies for not being able to read your mind from the content of your OP.

Unfortunately for you and S2S, the content doesn't change once you see it and I for one, am quite happy to rely on the account of those who have seen, it to inform my opinion.

cadburys

How many jobs will the project create?

Avns1s wrote: »

Sorry, I could watch the film over and over till I go to the grave and I wouldn't be able to identify with the "local people". The reason for this is simple. By nature, I am positive and progressive, interested in moving with the times, availing of anything that makes life better and improves economic and social development, in the hope that the place I was born, bred and reared in, might be a bit better for my children and theirs in turn.

I am not narrow minded, caught up in history, politics, parochialism and negativity nor do I think a few negative, narrow minded people should be able to hold a country and its future generations to ransom. So no, you're quite wrong, I wouldn't be able to identify with those local people you speak of. I want a place where I can grow old in the company of my children, made possible by them being able to have decent jobs in our native county. These "local" you want us to identify with are preventing an improvement in the possibility of this happening not just by the Shell issue but by the way they have managed to portray the county and the last place you should go if your trying to develop a project.

I cannot tell you just how much I resent that!!

Avns1s

cadburys wrote: »

How many jobs will the project create?

The project has had up on 1,000 jobs for most of the past 3 years in the construction phase.

When completed, I understand there will be in the region of 100 people employed on an ongoing basis.