The Pipe

oscarBravo

finisklin wrote: »

However hard one tries to explain this as banter to victims of violent assult and rape, I just think it is an up hill debate that can't be won.

Aye, there's the rub. The loudest of the hysteria won't be satisfied with anything short of scalps, and I suspect that at least one career will be destroyed by this - not because the person in question is a bad person, but because some people won't even contemplate the idea that there could be any mitigating circumstances. He said "rape", therefore he's basically a rapist and must be punished. Because that's what it comes down to.

It's a good thing Alexander Pope died more than three hundred years ago. If he wrote The Rape of the Lock today, he'd be pilloried.

mayotom

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

**** sake, care to expand on that? how exactly are the judiciary destroying this country and what is your alternative to an independent judiciary? As for pc brigade, what do you mesn? So to object to guards trivialising rape is pc now is it?

don't be stupid, what the guards said was wrong and they will be disciplined for that. The point is that in a 38 minute recording, most of the discussion is about procedures and how guarda action is perceived in court, in this case they are concerned that because they didn't build a scaffolding and use harnesses to remove the protesters from the tractors for their own and public safety, that in a court of law they would be in the wrong, even though they did not have any equipment to remove the protesters in this way. However if the protesters fell from these tractors and got hurt, the gardai would also be found to be negligent.
so basically the Irish judiciary are seen by the gardai to not take into account normal common sense and the fact that these health and safety rules are often simply not possible to implement.
There are numerous cases in the papers every week where judges decisions just don't make sense like here and here, so the point I'm getting to is that it is becoming very difficult for the gardai to do their job as they are bogged down in procedures and paperwork.
I have not suggested an alternative to and independent judiciary but certainly the judicial system needs a major overhaul, which if you feel needs more discussion, can be discussed in a new thread here

As for the PC brigade, look at the very beginning of the recording again where the girls are been arrested, the fact of the matter is that they were breaking the law and therefore the gardai were fully authorised to arrest them, then all we can hear are accusations from protesters because the male gardai touched the female protesters in the process of arresting them, they are accused of assault etc. Now you please tell me how the guard can get these women to leave the scene without arresting them and then how they can be brought to the police station without physical contact when they refuse to move?

Nobody in their right mind would trivialise rape, it is just as bad as murder, but then when we regularly hear of convicted rapists been let out early, or worse getting suspended sentences for rape, then I think the justice system is what is trivialising rape and this problem needs to be addressed.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Aye, there's the rub. The loudest of the hysteria won't be satisfied with anything short of scalps, and I suspect that at least one career will be destroyed by this - not because the person in question is a bad person, but because some people won't even contemplate the idea that there could be any mitigating circumstances. He said "rape", therefore he's basically a rapist and must be punished. Because that's what it comes down to.

It's a good thing Alexander Pope died more than three hundred years ago. If he wrote The Rape of the Lock today, he'd be pilloried.

That is the trouble with this case, the gardai in question will be made an example of, while the real criminals of this country will continue to walk the streets of this country and rape and murder, while the focus will be on these guys who made an ill judged and inappropriate remark.


This is in yesterdays local newspaper, Four arrests following renewed protests against Corrib gas project : Western People

Two people, including a female protester who was secured to the underside of a private security vehicle overnight, were taken to Belmullet Garda Station. They were released without charge and a file is being prepared for the Director of Public Prosecutions.

I wonder is this woman and the woman featured in this latest controversy are one and the same person..

finisklin

I think humour is subjective and it depends on the person and the context in which they can assess whether something is banter. That context doesn't change the seriousness of the subject matter to people that it affects.

Tommy Tiernan from memory was one of the first comedians to bring rape jokes to the mass audience. There was a certain shock value to it and his main focus was to grab attention using a gritty context - knowing full well that he was going to p*ss off a large part of the population and generate attention and debate over his humourous treatment of this topic. I like Tommy Tiernan (not sure if I should admit that.....:rolleyes:) but I don't like his jokes/routines on rape.

I didn't find the Jamie Bulger jokes funny at the time either.......but I respect that people have different senses of humour.

I do agree that the investigations should be complete and then a more informed decision can be made on the circumstances. Though not sure if these will change the perspective of the two female protesters........

finisklin

oscarBravo wrote: »

Aye, there's the rub. The loudest of the hysteria won't be satisfied with anything short of scalps, and I suspect that at least one career will be destroyed by this - not because the person in question is a bad person, but because some people won't even contemplate the idea that there could be any mitigating circumstances. He said "rape", therefore he's basically a rapist and must be punished. Because that's what it comes down to.

It's a good thing Alexander Pope died more than three hundred years ago. If he wrote The Rape of the Lock today, he'd be pilloried.

Indeed. I find it difficult to reconcile how one week a Garda is having banter about rape in relation to two female suspects and could the next week be assisting a victim of this crime or investigating a culprit. That for me is the rub.

oscarBravo

finisklin wrote: »

I find it difficult to reconcile how one week a Garda is having banter about rape in relation to two female suspects and could the next week be assisting a victim of this crime or investigating a culprit.

I don't. Emergency service workers engage in gallows humour. I've been hearing it my whole life. I know that someone who makes off-colour jokes is capable of treating the same topic seriously.

But what I know, and what other people believe, don't always gel.

byhookorbycrook

So if it were two teachers "joking" about child abuse??Is that banter??

Had the pleasure of visiting Erris this summer. Talked to many locals, read "Once upon a time in the West" and "The Pipe."It suits Shell to pretend it is not a local issue and loads of people have been drawn to this view.

oscarBravo

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

So if it were two teachers "joking" about child abuse??Is that banter??

No, it can only possibly mean that those teachers would turn a blind eye to the actual abuse of actual children. Because, apparently, it's physically impossible to take something seriously if you can joke about it.

Thargor

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Who's getting hysterical?? Young lads do not generally talk about rape in those terms from my experience, maybe you hang about with mysoginistic ignoramuses who do? Says more about you really.

You are, seeing as you're triple-posting your diarrhoea all over the forum about it, rape, paedos, tsunamis, earthquakes, madeline mcann all get joked about, ever seen Frankie Boyle? No need to go all Joe Duffy about it, sh1t happens.

oscarBravo

I'm glad to see some balance coming into the commentary, especially from women - see the comments on this story.

Coillte_Bhoy

Thargor wrote: »

You are, seeing as you're triple-posting your diarrhoea all over the forum about it, rape, paedos, tsunamis, earthquakes, madeline mcann all get joked about, ever seen Frankie Boyle? No need to go all Joe Duffy about it, sh1t happens.

Triple posting diarrhoea? I made three different posts. Whats your problem? Can you not tolerate an opposing opinion without descending to abuse? And yes i ahve seen Frankie Boyle and Tommy Tiernan as well. Thats a particularly stupid comparison, they are not policemen employed by the state to upjhold the law and they most certainly will not be the people a rape vcitim will have to go and see. btw where has anyone in this thread called for the guards involved to be dismissed???

Coillte_Bhoy

oscarBravo wrote: »

I would imagine she would be pretty traumatised by the assault. I doubt that a tasteless joke between a couple of Gardaí would have too much effect on her decision on whether or not to report it.
.

Right you are so. You obviously have dealt in this area then.:rolleyes:

oscarBravo

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Right you are so. You obviously have dealt in this area then.:rolleyes:

If you're claiming to know the mind of every woman who's ever been, or ever will be, the victim of a sexual assault, please feel free to share the benefit of your wisdom.

You won't be alone. There's no shortage of people who seem to know exactly what the guards in question believe and think.

Thargor

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Triple posting diarrhoea? I made three different posts. Whats your problem? Can you not tolerate an opposing opinion without descending to abuse? And yes i ahve seen Frankie Boyle and Tommy Tiernan as well. Thats a particularly stupid comparison, they are not policemen employed by the state to upjhold the law and they most certainly will not be the people a rape vcitim will have to go and see. btw where has anyone in this thread called for the guards involved to be dismissed???

Calm down Grandad, talk to Joe.

Coillte_Bhoy

Thargor wrote: »

Calm down Grandad, talk to Joe.

Is that your contribution to this thread? Well done, really adds to the debate.

Thargor

More than you you politically correct mammys boy.

Coillte_Bhoy

oscarBravo wrote: »

If you're claiming to know the mind of every woman who's ever been, or ever will be, the victim of a sexual assault, please feel free to share the benefit of your wisdom.

And where have i made such a claim? What do the Rape Crisis Centres think?? You might think they would have abetter idea of how a victim feels? no?

oscarBravo wrote: »

You won't be alone. There's no shortage of people who seem to know exactly what the guards in question believe and think.

No i dont know exactly, and never said i did.

Coillte_Bhoy

Thargor wrote: »

More than you you politically correct mammys boy.

Wow, i just cant compete with this standard of debate. Policially correct to question a police officer joking about raping demonstartors? Guilty as charged.

finisklin

This issue isn't going to go away...despite whether it's deemed trivial/banter on here or where ever.....some people have taken exception to it and are raising their concerns.

Up to 100 people protest outside Belmullet Garda Station Sunday, 10 April 2011 12:20 UP TO 100 PEOPLE PROTESTED OUTSIDE BELMULLET GARDA STATION YESTERDAY AS PART OF A SHELL TO SEA PROTEST IN RESPONSE TO THE RECORDINGS THAT EMERGED THIS WEEK, WHERE GARDAI ALLEGEDLY JOKED ABOUT RAPING A FEMALE PROTESTER IN THEIR CUSTODY.

THE PROTESTERS WERE ALSO DEMANDING AN INDEPENDENT INQUIRY INTO POLICING OF THE CORRIB GAS PROJECT.

STATEMENTS OF SUPPORT WERE READ OUT BY LOCAL WOMEN ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL WOMEN'S COUNCIL IRELAND, GLOBAL WOMEN'S STRIKE AND SINN FÉIN COUNCILLOR THÉRÈSE RUANE.

A FURTHER PROTEST WILL TAKE PLACE AT 5PM ON WEDNESDAY IN THE MARKET SQUARE IN CASTLEBAR.

yop

Maybe the should also have an inquiry into how many of the serial protesters, who are probably on the dole, have worked in the last few years.

I am not demeaning the comments by the Gardai as it was well out of order, but I think there seems to be a bunch of full time protesters who go from protest to protest.

Off topic comments I know, but we hear about how much money it costs to police this, while it also costs us a lot of money to pay the dole that I suspect a lot of them are claiming.

Daisy M

finisklin wrote: »

This issue isn't going to go away...despite whether it's deemed trivial/banter on here or where
STATEMENTS OF SUPPORT WERE READ OUT BY LOCAL WOMEN ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL WOMEN'S COUNCIL IRELAND, GLOBAL WOMEN'S STRIKE AND SINN FÉIN COUNCILLOR THÉRÈSE RUANE.

/QUOTE]
I suppose its not suprising that local women would be concerned, they would probably be concerned that if they or a family member ever had to report any form of sex abuse that they may come into contact with any of these gardai which could make an already terrible situation even worse. I am not implying that I think that what was said was any more than an extremely tasteless joke but its understandable that rape victims would not want to have any of these gardai dealing with them.
How though can they have any member of SF supporting them, to me that is wrong, the current leaders of that party were involved in some terrible acts and there is no getting away from that.

yop

is mise astra wrote: »

finisklin wrote: »

This issue isn't going to go away...despite whether it's deemed trivial/banter on here or where
STATEMENTS OF SUPPORT WERE READ OUT BY LOCAL WOMEN ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL WOMEN'S COUNCIL IRELAND, GLOBAL WOMEN'S STRIKE AND SINN FÉIN COUNCILLOR THÉRÈSE RUANE.

/QUOTE]
I suppose its not suprising that local women would be concerned, they would probably be concerned that if they or a family member ever had to report any form of sex abuse that they may come into contact with any of these gardai which could make an already terrible situation even worse. I am not implying that I think that what was said was any more than an extremely tasteless joke but its understandable that rape victims would not want to have any of these gardai dealing with them.
How though can they have any member of SF supporting them, to me that is wrong, the current leaders of that party were involved in some terrible acts and there is no getting away from that.

Based on this report I don't think that is the case.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rapecase-work-was-gardas-forte-2615052.html

As you said it was a stupid joke, but one of the gardai seems to know how to deal with rape cases. It makes the comment even worse know that fact.

oscarBravo

yop wrote: »

Based on this report I don't think that is the case.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rapecase-work-was-gardas-forte-2615052.html

I wonder what sort of mental gymnastics will be required by the people who believe it's impossible for someone who takes rape seriously to make an off-the-cuff remark like that.

Some people live in an incredibly black-and-white world.

yop

oscarBravo wrote: »

I wonder what sort of mental gymnastics will be required by the people who believe it's impossible for someone who takes rape seriously to make an off-the-cuff remark like that.

Some people live in an incredibly black-and-white world.

The same people who spend their lives tied to trees or sitting outside a gasfield live in that world I am afraid. In the case of Corrib I doubt if 1/2 of them are even Irish, never mind been from Mayo.

Coillte_Bhoy

yop wrote: »

The same people who spend their lives tied to trees or sitting outside a gasfield live in that world I am afraid. In the case of Corrib I doubt if 1/2 of them are even Irish, never mind been from Mayo.

And what the hell has ones nationality to do with anything? Seriously? And half of who exactly arent Irish? And as for not being from Mayo?? what a a ridiculous statement. What exactly has that got to do with anything?

yop

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

And what the hell has ones nationality to do with anything? Seriously? And half of who exactly arent Irish? And as for not being from Mayo?? what a a ridiculous statement. What exactly has that got to do with anything?

As I said, serial protesters, going from site to site as if they were college students going to house parties, while living off the dole we put in the pockets.
It swells the numbers, it increases the need for policing etc etc.

ciaran67

yop wrote: »

As I said, serial protesters, going from site to site as if they were college students going to house parties, while living off the dole we put in the pockets.
It swells the numbers, it increases the need for policing etc etc.

Looks like YOP got the bumper book of 100 great stereotypes for Christmas

yop

ciaran67 wrote: »

Looks like YOP got the bumper book of 100 great stereotypes for Christmas

Maybe I did

Or maybe the site of seen the same bunch of "Protesters" day in day out hanging out of the Corrib gas field, while the rest of us have to go out and work for them to do so.
Everyone has a right to protest and thats great, but I do feel some of them really take the pi*S.

finisklin

yop wrote: »

is mise astra wrote: »

Based on this report I don't think that is the case.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rapecase-work-was-gardas-forte-2615052.html

As you said it was a stupid joke, but one of the gardai seems to know how to deal with rape cases. It makes the comment even worse know that fact.

The article quotes as follows.....

The second woman, Jerrie Ann Sullivan, a postgraduate student said: "The words used were horrifying and have caused deep distress."

The two people at the centre of this controversy have expressed distress as a result of the comments. Nothing grey there.....

oscarBravo

finisklin wrote: »

The article quotes as follows.....

The second woman, Jerrie Ann Sullivan, a postgraduate student said: "The words used were horrifying and have caused deep distress."

The two people at the centre of this controversy have expressed distress as a result of the comments. Nothing grey there.....

Nothing grey at all, apart from the fact that the women in question had been arrested for public order offences. They're not exactly disinterested observers in all of this.

finisklin

oscarBravo wrote: »

Nothing grey at all, apart from the fact that the women in question had been arrested for public order offences. They're not exactly disinterested observers in all of this.

They're not entitled to express concern about RAPE banter that their custodians are making while bringing them to a Garda station? Distress has been expressed, protestor or not, disinterested or not. It may be interesting to conduct an opinion poll if people were in the same situation as the protestors and en route to the station.....I certainly wouldn't fancy it nor find the banter funny.

Maybe I need to recalibrate my sense of humour or get out more......:rolleyes: