ULSU and Fianna Fail

Jigga

Are UL students not concerned that the vast majority of their student union leadership are members of the biggest enemies of Irish students - Fianna Fail?

These FF members such as Derek Daly and last year's president Pa O'Brien share the conservative right-wing policies of this government such as reintroducing fees and other education cutbacks. Indeed, the current president Ruan Dillon McLoughlin's also has cosy ties with this cabal.

This explains the absolutely pathetic role the ULSU have played in opposing the reintroduction of fees - many of their leadership actually support their reintroduction!

Shame on them, could their party have done more damage to Ireland and it's young people?

mulner92

You may be on to something alright but i suppose everyone is entitle to their opinion, each to their own and all that. I don't think it will matter too much because they won't be in power regardless come march or april. I'm not voting for them anyway, i can promise that.

SarahBeep!

Firstly, Pa wasn't president last year.

Secondly, you have no right to discriminate against anyone because of their political preference no more than you do regarding their race religion or gender.

Thirdly, an IMMENSE effort was put into organising students for the protest right down to making sure people were fed, which was done by no other college, and making sure the shirts said ULSU instead of USI.
People went around begging people to sign up in lectures as well as the b1 canteen. The people who couldn't be bothered are the people who aren't helping fight fees.

TheTownie

I think the OP is a bit OTT but there is interesting info that I was unaware of.

I would appreciate if that point about SU Leadership being members of Fianna Fail could be comfirmed or denied?? Also what that term "members" practically means??

If they are against fees increases, they shouldn't be associated with those trying to implement them.

cson

Voted in by the student populace notwithstanding their political ties which ain't exactly hidden. So, no you don't really have a leg to stand on there tbh.

not bakunin

SarahBeep! wrote: »

Secondly, you have no right to discriminate against anyone because of their political preference no more than you do regarding their race religion or gender.

Thirdly, an IMMENSE effort was put into organising students for the protest right down to making sure people were fed, which was done by no other college, and making sure the shirts said ULSU instead of USI.
People went around begging people to sign up in lectures as well as the b1 canteen. The people who couldn't be bothered are the people who aren't helping fight fees.

Hmm, I think you are confusing 'discrimination' with a legitimate criticism of a potential hypocrisy/conflict of interest within the Union.
Nobody is doubting the hard work and sincerity of the officers (well I speak for myself at least), but I do think that these political affiliations should be clearly flagged when it comes to elections. As you say, everyone has a right to join whoever they want, but I sure as feck don't want to help further the career of a potential future FF/FG/SF/whatever candidate. I have no trust in any politicians whatsoever and will see any shoddy ladder-climbing efforts by party members as yet another shade of the gombeen political bull**** which has afflicted Ireland.

Note that I am not implying any Union members are trying to further a possible future political career, just outlining a scenario which could easily arise if we were to be blasé about any party ties.

ynwa_17

Jigga wrote: »

These FF members such as Derek Daly and last year's president Pa O'Brien share the conservative right-wing policies of this government such as reintroducing fees and other education cutbacks. Indeed, the current president Ruan Dillon McLoughlin's also has cosy ties with this cabal.

There are only so many political parties that one can follow. Its not unusual for those who follow politics to have a keen interest in the students union.

Even with the two aforementioned in the above quote, that still leaves Aoife Finnerty, Vivion Grisewood and Finn McDuffie, all of which you 'luckily enough' fail to mention. How can it be considered a surprise that a member or two of the union follow a party which is by far the biggest political party in Ireland and one of the most 'successful' in the democratic world?

This explains the absolutely pathetic role the ULSU have played in opposing the reintroduction of fees - many of their leadership actually support their reintroduction!

Are you actually serious? For goodness sake, what more could the students union do, considering the vast financial loss they took on by allowing people to could free of charge, bar a slight donation to charity and the wide-scale advertising campaign they did for the protest.

not bakunin wrote: »

Nobody is doubting the hard work and sincerity of the officers (well I speak for myself at least), but I do think that these political affiliations should be clearly flagged when it comes to elections. As you say, everyone has a right to join whoever they want, but I sure as feck don't want to help further the career of a potential future FF/FG/SF/whatever candidate. I have no trust in any politicians whatsoever and will see any shoddy ladder-climbing efforts by party members as yet another shade of the gombeen political bull**** which has afflicted Ireland.

Note that I am not implying any Union members are trying to further a possible future political career, just outlining a scenario which could easily arise if we were to be blasé about any party ties.

Of those within the Union, I can honestly say Derek Daly is the only one with any bit of a potential future in politics and a stint in the UL Students Union is hardly going to drastically increase his chances of this nor is he using his position to incorporate FF policy.

I'd like to add, if we consider Students Union's as a stepping stone to political glory, then do you trust the Irish Court system? As the current Chief Justice, John Murray, once sat as President of USI!

SarahBeep!

People shouldn't have rowe disclose their political preference when running for election.

I can't really see Derek or Ruan going all Robert Mugabe and stealing our freedom...

cson

SarahBeep! wrote: »

People shouldn't have rowe disclose their political preference when running for election.

I can't really see Derek or Ruan going all Robert Mugabe and stealing our freedom...

I disagree. If you have affiliations put it out there, if you're a good enough candidate you'll be elected anyway.

SarahBeep!

cson wrote: »

I disagree. If you have affiliations put it out there, if you're a good enough candidate you'll be elected anyway.

fair enough if a candidate wants to tell people that, but is is not in the same league as asking someone's sexuality or religion?

not bakunin

Nope. It's not as though you were born into the Cumann. It's a political ideology, and if you are looking to be elected to a public role, of course those who you are asking to vote for you have a right to know. And I amn't concerned with them 'taking my freedom' (like to see them try...), but I am concerned with them taking €98k per annum plus expenses of public money for sitting on the backbenches and nodding smugly!

As for the courts point, I really don't think it's the same scenario. High Court Judges don't have to canvass the masses in order to receive their position. Murray was appointed on the basis of his work to that point, not because he was in with the right crowd....unless you have evidence to suggest otherwise?

SarahBeep!

You do realise you're now talking about politicians and not sabbats?

not bakunin

Well I'm really talking about anyone who goes to the public looking to be elected to any paid position, using the lazy Dáil backbenchers as an example to illustrate where the electorate's apathy can be damaging. Doesn't matter if you're a Sabbatical officer of UL or Richard Nixon, same principles should apply. Amen, etc.

freyners

just to inform anyone who might think otherwise derek daly (his username is ninty9er) declared that he was a member of ff in this thread before the elections and afaik he never has had a problem admitting to this

not bakunin

Great, and long may that continue to be the case.

PeakOutput

SarahBeep! wrote: »

You do realise you're now talking about politicians and not sabbats?

its student politics its the same thing and its no secret that ruan has political ambitions so this sort of discussion is going to pale in comparison to the criticisms he will have to take if he gets elected to any serious office

i think its lame that they have these associations but they werent hidden either so its the electorates fault really if they didnt know about it

i think the fact that at least one supports the reintroduction of fees(so do i) is a much more important fact that i wouldnt know accept i know his handle on here and one that i think his electorate would have loved to know. i have read his reasoning behind it and i can see were he is coming from but i dont think its his decision and it should have be made very clear in the last race but hey i doubt he cars what anyone says about it now

the protest with the ministers car last year over fees is also so wrong that its not even funny but again it wasnt a secret that he was ff and he got voted in so thats that i guess

FerrisBueller

Honestly as a UL student I'm not particularly bothered about one's political affiliations, as far as I'm concerned they're all doing the job that they were hired for, which is to represent students and I don't really think that being a member of a political party makes a difference in this.

Fair enough, the fees campaign is a big thing, but the SU did organise for a group to go up, and did a good job in bringing students up to Dublin in the same manner as someone who wouldn't be affiliated with a political party would do.

It's a Student's Union, not the Dáil. Also I don't think anyone in the SU has really overexploited their position for their "political dreams" (if you want to a better example, have a chat with a UCC student) so to say. Have you seen a political party banner, logo, etc displayed in one of their offices?

However, remember that sabbatical positions are only for a year, people need to move on from so to be fair if someone does have a plan for after this, would you honestly blame them?

AlwaysRight

FerrisBueller wrote: »

Honestly as a UL student I'm not particularly bothered about one's political affiliations, as far as I'm concerned they're all doing the job that they were hired for, which is to represent students and I don't really think that being a member of a political party makes a difference in this.

Fair enough, the fees campaign is a big thing, but the SU did organise for a group to go up, and did a good job in bringing students up to Dublin in the same manner as someone who wouldn't be affiliated with a political party would do.

It's a Student's Union, not the Dáil. Also I don't think anyone in the SU has really overexploited their position for their "political dreams" (if you want to a better example, have a chat with a UCC student) so to say. Have you seen a political party banner, logo, etc displayed in one of their offices?

However, remember that sabbatical positions are only for a year, people need to move on from so to be fair if someone does have a plan for after this, would you honestly blame them?

I agree with this and I was about to say something similar myself.

I personally don't know a thing about politics and to be quite honest don't have any intention of getting particularly interested in politics in the near future. However, any thing I've needed from the SU, I have received. Whether that was a bit of advice or the opportunity to protest. They are doing their job in what appears to be a fair and unbiased way. If there are sabbats who want the fees, did it affect me getting the opportunity to protest against fees? I don't think it did.

Like I said i'm not into politics, but I cannot see how any of the political beliefs of the sabbats really effects me! I don't give a crap, they do what I need them to do and they do it well. Thats all that matters in my eyes.

Jigga

Neither Pa O'Brien or Derek Daly have hidden their FF affiliation, but Ruan Dillon McLoughlin certainly has been more circumspect in that regard.

Why does this matter? When Cowen attended the opening of the new Irish World Academy of Music and Dance, the SU organised a protest at a days notice and then changed the location from the advertised Millstream Courtyard to a spot at the other end of the campus outside the Schuman building with literally 10 minutes notice!

The official ULSU video record even shows Peter Power taking the time to shake 'protestors' hands. The stunt was wrapped up in time for both Derek Daly and McLoughlin to attend the function with Cowen.

Now, the official line is they went so as to raise students' concerns directly with the Taoiseach. But considering the scandal around the Martin Cullen visit in 2008, the fact that both are linked with FF, and that Derek Daly is on the record as a supporter of fees - students are entitled to be sceptical of how strongly their case was made.

The Cowen protest wasn't built for and was effectively sabotaged by moving location so late in the day. Many students were left behind at Millstream Courtyard without any word from the SU, and those who arrived late had no notice of what had changed. If ULSU aren't simply incompetent, then this is just one example of how students' right to protest can be cut across by their student union reps political affiliation.

FerrisBueller

Were any of the SU officers working as sabbatical officers in 2008?

AlwaysRight

Jigga wrote: »

Neither Pa O'Brien or Derek Daly have hidden their FF affiliation, but Ruan Dillon McLoughlin certainly has been more circumspect in that regard.

Why does this matter? When Cowen attended the opening of the new Irish World Academy of Music and Dance, the SU organised a protest at a days notice and then changed the location from the advertised Millstream Courtyard to a spot at the other end of the campus outside the Schuman building with literally 10 minutes notice!

The official ULSU video record even shows Peter Power taking the time to shake 'protestors' hands. The stunt was wrapped up in time for both Derek Daly and McLoughlin to attend the function with Cowen.

Now, the official line is they went so as to raise students' concerns directly with the Taoiseach. But considering the scandal around the Martin Cullen visit in 2008, the fact that both are linked with FF, and that Derek Daly is on the record as a supporter of fees - students are entitled to be sceptical of how strongly their case was made.

The Cowen protest wasn't built for and was effectively sabotaged by moving location so late in the day. Many students were left behind at Millstream Courtyard without any word from the SU, and those who arrived late had no notice of what had changed. If ULSU aren't simply incompetent, then this is just one example of how students' right to protest can be cut across by their student union reps political affiliation.

Now I maybe be showing my ignorance but was the change in location not due to the fact that Brian Cowen simply was not going to be passing through the millstream courtyard as was expected? Furthermore, and this is actually genuinely asking, did many students actually turn up in the millstream courtyard?

I felt pretty well informed on the event. Emails were sent saying time and location. Then I immediately saw the change in location on facebook, which was an effective method of communication seeing as most of us are addicted to it and are on it even on our phones most of the time.

I'm so politically stupid that I don't know what party anyone is with so I don't really care who was shaking hands or who was doing what. The way I saw it was

-fees coming in
-Cowen in charge
-Cowen coming to UL
-Me wanna shout at Cowen about fees
-SU organised a shout at Cowen
-YAY!

To put it simply that is.

nash19

First of all I'd like to thank the OP for starting this debate. I believe that this sort of debate is important in any democratic society and I'm sure that most of the sebats would welcome it. While I believe that it is not overly healthy for our SU to be dominated by people of any one political persuasion ( I believe for any institution to truly flourish there must be a certain level of diversity) these people were elected democratically by the student population. The key question here should not be a petty one of our SU members political ideals or beliefs, but in fact the question of are they doing the job they have been elected for, are they doing it to the best of their ability and could someone preform this job better? It should be these questions that we consider when electing people to SU office not what party they hold membership to and if anyone is unhappy with the the way the SU is managed at present they have the power to vote these people out this semester. Nice to see some healthy debate anyway rant over.......:pac:

Seloth

But you could view it like this...a Person can be catholic,it doesn't mean they hate homosexuals.Personally and I know quite hateingly I'd be more leaning to FF than most other party's but It doesn't mean myself that I'd support their education policy's.If I were too ever be involved in the SU I would but Ul student ahead of what ever personal politics I hold,which i assume the current,past and future SU will do.

Gael23

I have always known that many of them have FF ties but then you look at the work they have done over their term and this issue doesnt seem all that important. If you ask any of them they will say that their personal views are seperate from SU ones , which is fair but then we see them opposing FF measures like fees and organising a protest when their leader visits the campus.

ninty9er

For those that are unaware I am Derek Daly.

This issue comes up from time to time and I have no problems in addressing it. I am a member of Fianna Fáil, though I dispute the right wing alignment, but that's not for discussion here.

When I am at work, that is firmly outside the door, however where debates arise internally I will express a personal opinion before a vote is taken, as will all officers who wish to do so. I have only ever once been accused in an internal meeting (not this year) of expressing an opinion as a Fianna Fáil member above Derek Daly. This ended badly and with the other person retracting the statement under threat of an official harassment complaint.

I do not, nor have I ever, sought to put a Fianna Fáil view forward as one that should be adopted by ULSU.

My opinion on fees is that I am pro, but then again I was one of the people who brought Ógra Fianna Fáil to that opinion, it was not Ógra Fianna Fáil who brought me to that opinion. I will not debate 3rd level fees on this forum, if you want to debate fees with me do it in the politics forum.

I'm not going to comment on other's political hues, but suffice to say there is only one member of Fianna Fáil elected to a sabbatical position. I get plenty of abuse for it from staff, and from other officers, but I am as entitled to my membership of Fianna Fáil and my opinions as they are not to like it. If it ever turned nasty, I would take appropriate action, but it hasn't and I doubt it will.

We work as a team in ULSU regardless of political persuasion or personal disagreements. That is as it should be.

We take our direction from Class Reps Council or AGM on policy and as such, regardless of my personal opinion on fees I was in Dublin in November shouting as loudly as anyone else.

As for political ambitions and platforming, does anyone honestly believe that the people of Ireland cold give a flying fuck whether someone was an SU officer or not. I wouldn't hide it, but it wouldn't be of much benefit on a campaign trail as a decent policy schedule. There are plenty of people in other SUs, looking particularly at UCD and USI that use it as a political platform, but to be honest, I don't know why as it is so far removed from the everyday life of a national legislator that you would have to be blind or stupid to think that being a students' union officer is of enormous benefit. There are minor experiential things like conflict resolution and dealing with University management that can translate, but the vast majority of what we do is irrelevant to most politicians, and by inference the electorate.

On the subject of protests: At the Irish World Academy opening we expected Cowen to walk across the Living Bridge from Plassey House, however due to delays he went straight to the World Academy. We could have waited in the Millstream, but security kindly informed us he may not be using that route so we repositioned in a place that he would HAVE to pass. The protest meeting time was 11am and it was 11:05 by the time the Millstream was cleared of protesters.

Ruán and I got 5 minutes with Cowen during which we outlined the impact of core budget cuts as well as the impracticalities of increasing the SSC to €3,000. He listened, he outlined his position and thanked us for the views. I did not arrange this, the University Protocol Office arranged this and at no time was Cowen made aware of our political persuasions by either of us, though the Chancellor may have done so in my case, I don't know.

I don't know how I can be any clearer in outlining the separation of my work and my Fianna Fáil membership.

PeakOutput

ninty9er wrote: »

For those that are unaware I am Derek Daly.

<snip>

I don't know how I can be any clearer in outlining the separation of my work and my Fianna Fáil membership.

i agree with you on most things i just think that

A) if you had of made your personal opinions on fees clear you would have had a much harder time getting elected(rightly or wrongly) and while i know how you justify it i dont think that thats your decision to make. disclose everything and explain it and then let the electorate decide. im not saying you should resign over it or anything i just think it would have been the more 'honest'(for want of a better word) way to do things

your right the electorate couldnt care less if you were a sabbat but the party would and it gives you just that little bit extra experience that will help you along in the party if thats what you want. thats not a bad thing but student politics has long been a stepping stone for people with further political ambitions and saying the two are unrelated is just wrong imo

C) my fyp is directly related to improving the experience of every student in the university and i cant get the president or any of the other sabbats to reply to an email requesting an hour of their time, that is simply ridiculous (yes thats off tpic but while i have your attention )

ilovemybrick

SarahBeep! wrote: »

Secondly, you have no right to discriminate against anyone because of their political preference no more than you do regarding their race religion or gender.

I think you misunderstand how democracy works. The very discrimination against opposing theories or opinions is the basis of democracy.

Seloth

ilovemybrick wrote: »

I think you misunderstand how democracy works. The very discrimination against opposing theories or opinions is the basis of democracy.

I believe they mean on a more local level.While in theory and Nationally that is true the SU is not made up of political opinions or party's but one such that functions to bring about the best for the student body.

The Little Fella

I would never vote for Fianna Fail but that does not stop me recognising they do have some good politicians in their party such as Brian Lenihan who was not given the correct ministry to match his expertise and also the likes of Michael Martin and Mary Hanafin. It is not correct to paint all people who are in Fianna Fail with the same brush. Personally I would support the introduction of fees if a proper grant system could be put in place with such an introduction. Political affiliations should not in any case affect SU officers in their roles.

Jigga

Some people still manage to miss the point and continue to operate under the illusion that having pro-fees people lead anti-fees campaigns doesn't matter. It clearly does, but I've made my point. Hopefully some of those who weren't aware of the FF nature of the SU leadership have been awoken to this fact.

Regarding the Cowen visit, the student union reps had left the Millstream Courtyard by 10.50 and there were about a dozen students left behind. RTE actually came to talk to the students who were still there at 11 and the official SU contingent had definitely long gone by then.

not bakunin

ninty9er wrote: »

My opinion on fees is that I am pro....
We take our direction from Class Reps Council or AGM on policy and as such, regardless of my personal opinion on fees I was in Dublin in November shouting as loudly as anyone else.

Derek I appreciate the points made in your post, and am glad to note you have been consistently open about your FF membership.
However, can you understand how the above statements may come across very poorly to the average student? Not that you oppose fees, but that you would be involved in 'their' anti-fees campaign at a high level when you clearly feel otherwise personally. I am not accusing you of not putting in genuinely hard work involving the protest etc, but your allegiances to the anti-fees campaign, regardless of Union policy, has to be a legitimate concern to anti-fees students. It is a hypocritical stance in my eyes at least.
EDIT: Could I just add to PeakOutput's previous point there and echo the call for transparency about your view at election time. No idea if you are running again, but if you are, I hope to see you shouting loud and proud to everyone that you are pro-fees...being the Deputy President definitely necessitates this.

Regarding the Cowen fiasco, I can confirm that the SU protesters left the Millstream before 11am, without leaving any indication as to where they had re-located. (There was an email sent out as far as I remember, but at short notice and there was no sign left redirecting people at the Millstream. About 8 interested students asked me where the SU had gone after showing up there). RTE and Irish Times journalists were subsequently left to talk to the extremely small body of other protesters (lecturers, socialists, hangers-on) at the actual building. However, this has all been well-documented and is in the past. There were mistakes made, hopefully it won't happen again.