ULSU and Fianna Fail

TheProdigy

canned_ulkc wrote: »

And anyone reading a line like that could only conclude that you are a complete drama queen who possibly should talk to someone about medications to quieten the paranoid voices in your head!

Also....


I saw Derek in the hurlers the other night and he had SO much money that he convinced a few midgets to be demeaned for cash. Basically he insisted that they queue up behind each other with pints of Guinness on their heads. Each time he drank, the midget in the front had to get to the back of the queue (I even heard Derek quote a dig at health cuts in the late 80's Scrap Saturday radio show by telling one to "pick up that leg there and hop it to the back of the queue").
I heard Derek describe his reasoning to his golfing buddies "It's so that each drink is just slightly different from the last rather than getting to the ****ty end of the pint which I always felt tastes of left-wing liberal and then starting all over in a fresh one"
I couldn't hear the rest - something to do with diminished marginal capacity or something like that.

P.S. I know the term "midget" isn't politically correct. But then, that just remains in the same vein as the rest of the thread....

I hope I made you smile....

Tony if you put as much effort into your personal appearance as you do sarcastic and off topic replies you would probably have a girlfriend/boyfriend by now.

Tragedy

TheProdigy wrote: »

Tony if you put as much effort into your personal appearance as you do sarcastic and off topic replies you would probably have a girlfriend/boyfriend by now.

I thought I was Tony?

sceptre

It's straining my usually immense patience to leave this thread open with some of the more recent posts.

Please take note of the thread title when posting (I'm looking at you Mervyn Crawford, though it's applicable to everyone). Try to avoid irrelevant crud. Stick to the point - reading the thread title is a good help here (it's a short thread title after all).

Personalising the discussion and insulting your fellow forum members isn't allowed. There have been cards issued for this, there has been one ban for continuing it anyway. If in doubt, read the moderator warnings (from both moderators) already posted on this thread. With all due respect, this isn't the standing at the back and posting stupidly forum. Don't become the second (or third) person banned for insulting fellow forum members.

As always, if you have an issue with this, please send me a PM.

/mod

Seloth

Tbh I dont see why this is still around.The main question and any directly linked to it were answered.This thread has turned into a political discussion that is not based around Campus politics and any major or influencing factors.

canned_ulkc

TheProdigy wrote: »

Tony if you put as much effort into your personal appearance as you do sarcastic and off topic replies you would probably have a girlfriend/boyfriend by now.

Amazingly despite putting zero effort into my personal appearance I have succeeded in what you seem to see as some kind of life target.
Hmmm... The question of who TheProdigy is continues (at least for me) I thought you might know me (knowing that I put no effort into my personal appearance) but then not knowing I wasn't single makes me question that - perhaps just assuming that I'm a fat ugly old ****bag?

In that case - I hope you too received an "infraction" for personal digs...

In terms of being on topic though - many think sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. They're welcome to their opinion but they are wrong... I used it in my last post to highlight the ridiculousness of what are barely even passable as accusations and I think I did a good job of it (while being sarcastic, I think it's more important to gauge your success on how funny it is to you while writing than anything else - the image of Derek using "midgets" as tables - I mean come on!)

While I recognise this is one of those replies that probably fits in the categories refered to by sceptre - I think given that

The main question and any directly linked to it were answered

what harm is it to allow it to become essentially textual sartire?

Mervyn Crawford

Sceptre

Thank you for your comments; but I do differ from your view.

(Though I am foursquare behind you on the issue of personal insults.)

Why would the original poster raise the issue of hiding political allegiance?
Except to point out that it is important (vital?) for the student body to know who they are REALLY voting for.

It's not a dead, arid question of nit-picking or pique on the part of those who feel they need to know if a canadiadate is in a political party or group. Surely it's because the student body, and the education system, are under attack. By Fianna Fail! And my elaboration on that is that FF are not the only problem. It's too easy to dump everything on one party.

Debate is the lifeblood of the student community. I believe there are some students who are very happy with the status quo and they do not want open debate. Hence the cynical attitude (and insults) towards those who question.

I do appreciate you will have a heavy schedule apart from the workload you encounter on the Board. But I do feel you should not buckle under pressure from those who would close discussion down. And differentiate between sharp political discussion, and cheap personal remarks.

Roadtrippin

First of all, I'd like to say that everyone is entitled to their political opinion and I do not believe that people in the ULSU are doing a bad job in representing students' interests just because some of them may have affiliations with FF.

I do agree that on the day of the IWA inauguration it seemed a bit strange the way the protest was relocated last minute. I have since asked around why this happened and there was a legitimate logistic reason at the time and no conspiracy against protesters and students' interests.

However, I do think that all student representatives should be careful voicing pro-fees opinions since I am 100% that no students will agree with it. I do think that times are tough and due to budget cuts education expenses are going to increase and ultimately students will have to chip in a bit more as well whether we like it or not. But I also think that a lot of universities have chosen to increase fees a lot more than necessary. Education should be accessible to everyone in my opinion and there are better ways of cutting cost than making students pay more and more fees every year.
Just an example: the continuation fee for research postgrads has tripled since last September -how exactly is that justified? There are no tuition fees involved for research postgrads...

hoorsmelt

There is no suggestion that ULSU have been compromised by having a FFer as deputy President, there are however valid questions as to why so little beyond the Dublin trip (for which they should be commended) has been done to fight fees in UL. The SU should have endorsed the protest called by the College of Further Education, and moves to set up things like a fees campaign group or some kind of SU strategy for fighting fees which involved more than lobbying or the occasional protest. For example, college staff are facing cuts too which are impacting on their abilities to provide things like tutorials, and the SU should attempt to make common cause with the lecturers union to fight the issue.

constantg

Jigga wrote: »

Are UL students not concerned that the vast majority of their student union leadership are members of the biggest enemies of Irish students - Fianna Fail?

These FF members such as Derek Daly and last year's president Pa O'Brien share the conservative right-wing policies of this government such as reintroducing fees and other education cutbacks. Indeed, the current president Ruan Dillon McLoughlin's also has cosy ties with this cabal.
QUOTE]

You know I knew there was something a little weird about this entire debate. To the best of my knowledge, Fianna Fail is a
Left of Centre party.

And furthermore, Fees were abolished in the Fine Gael-Labour-DL coalition in 1995, that is now for those of us who don't know about our political parties a RIGHT WING and a LEFT WING coalition. To be fair i don't think bringing the shades of nominal political allegiance into a debate such as this is relevant. Or fair.

Mossin

Wow, I leave the country for 2.5 weeks, and the UL forum descends into chaos.

Firstly: Kudos to Sceptre/Petee for allowing the thread to remain open despite the abuse and continual moving off-topic that occurred. Kudos once again for handing out appropriate infractions to those who continually broke the rules.

Now to add my 2 cents to what used to be a debate about the ULSU and FF.

I wonder would those who are complaining about Derek's affiliations be congratulating him if he was a member of FG instead?
Actually for that matter, Ms. Education, who is another Sabbat, came on this thread, and made it clear that she is not a FF'er. Do those who slate Derek think that Aoife is doing a better job in the ULSU because she is not a FF'er?
I highly doubt that people will say 'yes' to that, and some will say that that is not what the thread is about, but in essence it is.

The UL students vote in the ULSU sabbats each year, and the student populous has elected Derek to his position for the past 2 years. His political affiliations have never been hidden from the students who vote for him. They vote for him on a campaign he put forward to help students in a Welfare position, and tbh, I voted for him both times based on this, and I couldnt give two hoots what political affiliations he has, as [AND AS HAS BEEN STATED BY DEREK HIMSELF IN THIS THREAD] he keeps his political agenda to himself, and doesnt allow it to interfere in his role as a sabbat. If you dont believe in what he says, then thats your hang-up. I believe that he is the best person to do the role he was elected to, and thats why he is there.

If he runs [and I'm saying he is] for ULSU president [and he'll let us all know in due course if he is] then maybe, and I stress MAYBE, he will have a case to answer on being pro-fees, when the union stance will be anti-fees. But until then, he is in my opinion, not being unduly influenced in his position within the ULSU by his political affiliations with Fianna Fail.

/David

CiaranMT

constantg wrote: »

You know I knew there was something a little weird about this entire debate. To the best of my knowledge, Fianna Fail is a
Left of Centre party.

Since when? :pac:

constantg

CiaranMT wrote: »

Since when? :pac:

Since Fine Gael are Right Wing and since the foundation of the State I would imagine. However they're not traditionally Left Left. More like New Labour in the UK really imho

constantg

Mossin wrote: »

If he runs B]and I'm saying he is[/B for ULSU president [and he'll let us all know in due course if he is] then maybe, and I stress MAYBE, he will have a case to answer on being pro-fees, when the union stance will be anti-fees.

/David

Hi David,

Was wondering did you mean "I'm NOT saying he is"???

Mossin

Yeah, that was my mistake...i meant NOT saying

rmacm

CiaranMT wrote: »

Since when? :pac:

That's easy, since Bertie announced that he was "one of the last socialists left in Irish politics" :pac:

CiaranMT

constantg wrote: »

Since Fine Gael are Right Wing and since the foundation of the State I would imagine. However they're not traditionally Left Left. More like New Labour in the UK really imho

Saw a great couple of posts on another site about the nature of FF and FG which I think sums them up pretty well:

FF and FG are essentially the same party - ideologically,
politically and historically. Vincent Brown described the two as
Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dee

In terms of policy, yes. But socially and culturally, I don't think so. Your typical
FF voter is an ignorant gombeen, whereas your typical FG
voter is an obnoxious dullard.

DJCR

Interesing topic - one which of course has been brought up many times before and each time shot down like a pidgeon during WW1 when the phone lines were down.

After reading the entire thread three questions pop into mind:-

1) Would a murderer make a great SU president.
2) Should Derek have to march around with FF stamped to his forehead at the next SU election.
3) Should Derek make it known he is pro-fees (as if he's been hiding it all this time).

In answer to the first question I would have to say, why not? Is this a morally ambiguous statement, nope. Why? Because people change. He/she may have murdered in the past (gone to prison etc etc etc) but they may be a genious and be able to have students pay no fees and still have a really good education with all the bells and whistles we currently enjoy and more.

Question 2

Nope - Thats just rediculous and more FF bashing (and everyone knows already). But it is interesting that people would think that he should. Why should he? Membership of a political party is a choice people make because The Individual agrees broadly with the fundamental issues that the party stand for (Yes I'm talking about other individuals) (Obviously **** happens that you don't agree with, but by and large you would agree with the party).

In college the Ogra's approach people and largely get told to !"£$ %^& - The individuals right to self determination - ie. the Individual finds a party that suits them not the other way around.

He shouldn't have to tell anyone he's FF because quite frankly there is no point - he's not going to have a party front bench around the table with three or four members of the Exec under his wing preped and ready to vote for Fees under the orders of the Chief Whip etc etc etc
Also to take this years Sabats, they are all confident individuals that wouldn't bow to the "party" line and would engage in decent debate over the issues.

Question 3

I think he's been quoted many times saying that while he supports fees he will support the fight against them as it is his job. To be fair I hear the arguement against saying, how can anyone take him seriously if one minute he's shouting against fees and one minute he's shouting for fees.
But lets face it, we've all done **** we didn't want to do in work so its not that hard to believe that Derek does this.

Also one has to remember he is elected to a POSITION. This POSITION has a mandate - therefore even before anyone runs for election they know alot of the stuff they are going to have to do before they get there. It is not a self-determining position i.e. he has to do what he is told otherwise bye bye Derek (motion of no confidence forwarded by class reps or general student populace) [sorry was mad to get that in with Cowen having his today].
So when it comes down to it - does he have to broadcast that he wishes to see Students Education and Facilities better cared for by the introduction of Fees? No!!!

TheProdigy

DJCR wrote: »

Interesing topic - one which of course has been brought up many times before and each time shot down like a pidgeon during WW1 when the phone lines were down.

After reading the entire thread three questions pop into mind:-

1) Would a murderer make a great SU president.
2) Should Derek have to march around with FF stamped to his forehead at the next SU election.
3) Should Derek make it known he is pro-fees (as if he's been hiding it all this time).

In answer to the first question I would have to say, why not? Is this a morally ambiguous statement, nope. Why? Because people change. He/she may have murdered in the past (gone to prison etc etc etc) but they may be a genious and be able to have students pay no fees and still have a really good education with all the bells and whistles we currently enjoy and more.

Question 2

Nope - Thats just rediculous and more FF bashing (and everyone knows already). But it is interesting that people would think that he should. Why should he? Membership of a political party is a choice people make because The Individual agrees broadly with the fundamental issues that the party stand for (Yes I'm talking about other individuals) (Obviously **** happens that you don't agree with, but by and large you would agree with the party).

In college the Ogra's approach people and largely get told to !"£$ %^& - The individuals right to self determination - ie. the Individual finds a party that suits them not the other way around.

He shouldn't have to tell anyone he's FF because quite frankly there is no point - he's not going to have a party front bench around the table with three or four members of the Exec under his wing preped and ready to vote for Fees under the orders of the Chief Whip etc etc etc
Also to take this years Sabats, they are all confident individuals that wouldn't bow to the "party" line and would engage in decent debate over the issues.

Question 3

I think he's been quoted many times saying that while he supports fees he will support the fight against them as it is his job. To be fair I hear the arguement against saying, how can anyone take him seriously if one minute he's shouting against fees and one minute he's shouting for fees.
But lets face it, we've all done **** we didn't want to do in work so its not that hard to believe that Derek does this.

Also one has to remember he is elected to a POSITION. This POSITION has a mandate - therefore even before anyone runs for election they know alot of the stuff they are going to have to do before they get there. It is not a self-determining position i.e. he has to do what he is told otherwise bye bye Derek (motion of no confidence forwarded by class reps or general student populace) [sorry was mad to get that in with Cowen having his today].
So when it comes down to it - does he have to broadcast that he wishes to see Students Education and Facilities better cared for by the introduction of Fees? No!!!

Great stuff Dave, it was unfortunate you weren't able to run for the election you had planned because with this elegance and coherence you would have won a landslide IMHO. Great to see your still around anyway.

NewShoes

The relevance of Derek telling people his political beliefs is non existent! He is contracted in to do a job. Yes he is PRO FEES, but I remember him clearly coming to lectures urging students to go protest AGAINST fees as that was the Union Stance on the subject matter.

It is almost like you needing a doctor to proclaim their blood type before they treat you? What difference does it make to their job and how they will deal with your queries and needs.

TheTownie

NewShoes wrote: »

The relevance of Derek telling people his political beliefs is non existent! He is contracted in to do a job. Yes he is PRO FEES, but I remember him clearly coming to lectures urging students to go protest AGAINST fees as that was the Union Stance on the subject matter.

It is almost like you needing a doctor to proclaim their blood type before they treat you? What difference does it make to their job and how they will deal with your queries and needs.

Sorry man that is just a terrible analogy! :pac:

Roadtrippin

Jigga wrote: »

You know I knew there was something a little weird about this entire debate. To the best of my knowledge, Fianna Fail is a
Left of Centre party.

FG = left of centre??? Seriously? Where did you get that idea from? They are about as left as my right arm... If you can name 5 points in their political orientation, that reflect a left/socialist opinion, I may be swayed... Otherwise, I think you are VERY VERY mistaken about what kind of political affiliation FG has... Honestly, to me FF and FG are pretty much the same in a lot of ways. The only difference is that one was corrupted by power while governing the country. If FG was in charge at the time, they wouldn't have been any better IMHO.

Another comment I'd like to make re FFers in the SU: Yes, I do think they could have done more Anti-fees marches if possible, however, I think the battle is lost at this stage. Fees are going to be increased (or have already been) either way. Now the fight should be against the amount by which they have been increased... Also, I think the cuts that have been imposed are not happening in the right places in education. From what I can gather, students and teaching staff are suffering alike under these tough times (e.g. in terms of pay, provision of tutorial hours, merging of courses/modules...)

When it comes to the representation of students' interests in UL and the SU, I don't think the FFers are doing a bad job. But I think it's foolish to believe that people's political affiliation don't influence their decision-making in some way or another, no matter how hard they try to leave those aside.

NickDrake

Just to let you know my post was deleted so that proves censorships is well and alive on here.

Such right wing carry on should be dead and burried and the FF love in is true.

ULSU censor this forum and it is moderated by ULSU friends and former officers.

Beware they will delete if they don't like it.

Insect Overlord

Yup, it's all one big conspiracy...

In other news, I'll be selling tin-foil hats on Cruise's Street tomorrow.

CiaranMT

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Yup, it's all one big conspiracy...

In other news, I'll be selling tin-foil hats on Cruise's Street tomorrow.

How much?

sceptre

NickDrake wrote: »

Just to let you know my post was deleted so that proves censorships is well and alive on here.

Such right wing carry on should be dead and burried and the FF love in is true.

ULSU censor this forum and it is moderated by ULSU friends and former officers.

Beware they will delete if they don't like it.

I dumped it as it was nothing to do with the discussion of ULSU and FF (along with the side-discussion on the new world order from a few passing satellites, though obviously nowhere near as completely off-topic but still off-topic). Ironically, given your issue with the deletion, side-discussions that aren't to do with ULSU and connections to FF will dilute the discussion, throw it away and make it likely that the thing gets locked, which I've no intention of doing, despite the off-topic stuff (which hence, gets dumped). So, well, there you go.

Complaints can go through me or Peteee - or if you'd rather deal with someone else who probably has only the vaguest idea of where UL even is and hence can't be considered to be censoring (I mean really, censorship? Ask the cat mods for Edu to go through the whole thread including deletions if you like - they may choose to reverse it or if it has to be looked at by an admin, that admin won't be me), the category mods for Edu are Red Alert and spurious. Feel free to PM either or both if there's an issue. So that's the verification/complaint/etc route. If it's on-topic for this actual discussion (ULSU and FF) then there's not a chance it'll be deleted. Any issue with this can be dealt with in the same way - PM one of the mods, the cmods or, for admin oversight, that's what the dispute resolution forum is for. Watching you watching me watching you watching me and all that - every deletion or edit is logged, verifiable and happily can be queried by going through the basic procedure to which I've linked. Moderation complaints or queries always go through that procedure so please, feel very free to use it. The object of forum moderation is to keep a discussion going where possible, not to stop it, despite what anyone who's ever considered the purchase of a tinfoil hat might think.

With that said (though it should be painfully obvious to be honest), there's a topic of discussion if anyone feels like making an on-topic post... Without being unnecessarily condescending, it's not that difficult to stay the on-topic route - most people manage to do so and it's pretty difficult to misunderstand the thread title and opening post.

/mod