Ulster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Buer

Toulon have offered Pienaar a contract for next season, according to reports in France. If Ulster are allowed offer him an extension, it surely will only be for a year or two at most. A move to Toulon for 4-5 years could set him up financially for the rest of his life.

awec

Ah crap.

I really want to see us hold on to him, but we won't be able to compete with them. Barring some sort of miracle losing him would set us back a good bit.

CatFromHue

Buer wrote: »

Toulon have offered Pienaar a contract for next season, according to reports in France. If Ulster are allowed offer him an extension, it surely will only be for a year or two at most. A move to Toulon for 4-5 years could set him up financially for the rest of his life.

I don't think Pienaar moving on is that bad a thing I have to say. He's pretty much playing 12 months a year now and is still missing for a good chunk of Ulsters games. He'd also free up some cash that could be used for another player.

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

Toulon have offered Pienaar a contract for next season, according to reports in France. If Ulster are allowed offer him an extension, it surely will only be for a year or two at most. A move to Toulon for 4-5 years could set him up financially for the rest of his life.

They've three nines who should all be there next season so I'd say Pienaar would be a straight swap for Wilkinson.

Buer

CatFromHue wrote: »

I don't think Pienaar moving on is that bad a thing I have to say. He's pretty much playing 12 months a year now and is still missing for a good chunk of Ulsters games. He'd also free up some cash that could be used for another player.

I can see your point but if Ulster aren't allowed sign another scrum half, they're in trouble. None of the others that are there have shown they're able for high level HEC rugby.

Marshall is 28 and is a good impact sub but can be downright awful when trying to actually control a game and make decisions. Heaney is 23 and is possibly fundamentally better than Marshall but is quite a similar style (and, like Marshall, tiny for a modern pro). Ian Porter is 25 and had given up on rugby until recently when he decided to give it another shot and is on a 6 month development deal.

Maybe I'm being a bit pessimistic but I don't see any of those 3 being anywhere near good enough for a tough European clash. It will also put much more pressure on Jackson who has a lot of pressure taken off him at times by Pienaar. He's playing rugby constantly but he was still available for all of their HEC games (all be it off the bench for the opener).

Boss back to Ulster for a final season?

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

Boss back to Ulster for a final season?

It crossed my mind. They could certainly do worse and with him turning 34 this season and coming to the end of his contract, Leinster might want to look to the future.

I know he left Ulster with a little bit of a question mark after supposedly upsetting one or two people though so who knows. Perhaps Reddan could become the first man to play for all 4 provinces!

mfceiling

Would be a big loss when you are 2 points behind, with 30 seconds to play and you get a penalty 45 metres from goal...

thomond2006

L'equipe now saying Pienaar has accepted Toulon's offer.

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

L'equipe now saying Pienaar has accepted Toulon's offer.

Just read it there. They seem very confident that the deal is signed, sealed and delivered.

That's a huge loss for them especially if they're unable to sign a NIQ replacement.

former legend

Buer wrote: »

Just read it there. They seem very confident that the deal is signed, sealed and delivered.

That's a huge loss for them especially if they're unable to sign a NIQ replacement.

With no other NIQs playing at 9 in the other provinces, you'd imagine that it won't be enforced, particularly if the natives aren't making a very strong case that they are up to it (which at the moment, they're not).

Obviously, it's highly unlikely that they'll get anyone of the quality of Pienaar.

But then again, is Pienaar holding Jackson back?

awec

I'm going home to go cry in a corner, while rocking back and forth

Terrible news! How do you replace that quality?

.ak

I think his leaving/not getting a new Ulster contract was always on the cards?

Aside from his ability to work the Ulster team into a cohesive direction he'll be missed for his long range penalties!

[Jackass]

Wasn't Pienaar leaving at the end of the season always probable rather than possible?

I think he has already got a dispensation for an extended stay at Ulster, so it's probably a case that Ulster had no choice in the matter and Pienaar got an excellent opportunity at another big club.

For what it's worth, I think without Pienaar, Marshall as first choice at Ulster would have gone a long way to being ahead of Murray when coming through for Ireland. I think he's a quality player who was wasted somewhat with Pienaar at 9. Might be a bit unsettling for some, but maybe a 9 / 10 combo of Marshall / Pienaar being developed would have been more beneficial than a Pienaar / Jackson one - but again, I think the IRFU had a hand in that, as we desperately needed 10's at the time.

I always get nervous when a big player leaves another province, as I wonder which Leinster player will be sent to fill the void. If Marshall is first choice 9 and Ulster can't sign a 9, I would like to see Boss head back at the end of the season and Reddan and Cooney to become Leinster combo for next season.

Worst case scenario, Ulster use the opportunity to poach either Cooney or Luke McGrath would be a nightmare. In fact, I'd happily see Leinster send both Reddan and Boss north at the end of the season if it meant we kept those two as our first and second choice for next season.

Buer

[Jackass] wrote: »

For what it's worth, I think without Pienaar, Marshall as first choice at Ulster would have gone a long way to being ahead of Murray when coming through for Ireland. .

I assume you mean you're going to purchase as DeLorean (complete with Huey Lewis tape), go back to 1994, kidnap Justin Marshall, bring him to present day Belfast and have him play for Ulster and declare for Ireland?

Because that's more plausible than Paul Marshall ever being ahead of Conor Murray!

jamiedav2011

[Jackass] wrote: »

Wasn't Pienaar leaving at the end of the season always probable rather than possible?

I think he has already got a dispensation for an extended stay at Ulster, so it's probably a case that Ulster had no choice in the matter and Pienaar got an excellent opportunity at another big club.

For what it's worth, I think without Pienaar, Marshall as first choice at Ulster would have gone a long way to being ahead of Murray when coming through for Ireland. I think he's a quality player who was wasted somewhat with Pienaar at 9. Might be a bit unsettling for some, but maybe a 9 / 10 combo of Marshall / Pienaar being developed would have been more beneficial than a Pienaar / Jackson one - but again, I think the IRFU had a hand in that, as we desperately needed 10's at the time.

I always get nervous when a big player leaves another province, as I wonder which Leinster player will be sent to fill the void. If Marshall is first choice 9 and Ulster can't sign a 9, I would like to see Boss head back at the end of the season and Reddan and Cooney to become Leinster combo for next season.

Worst case scenario, Ulster use the opportunity to poach either Cooney or Luke McGrath would be a nightmare. In fact, I'd happily see Leinster send both Reddan and Boss north at the end of the season if it meant we kept those two as our first and second choice for next season.

Ulster have three 9s in Porter, Heaney and Marshall, can't see them poaching Cooney or McGrath.

Not sure what you're trying to say about Marshall? He's certainly not nearly in the realm of Conor Murray currently, and bar a few cameo appearances hasn't really looked like he could be international level. He's also 28 by the way, which many people seem to forget.

[Jackass]

Just to clarify, I was talking about where Marshall and Murray where about 2 years ago, when Murray became first choice scrum-half for Ireland after about 11 Munster appearances, and where Marshall was (miles ahead of Murray, who took a year or so to get to an acceptable European level, let alone international level, see Lions thread for my praise of deserving to tour since then if you think this is bashing him, it's just pointing out how far behind he was Marshall at the time) and where Marshall could be now if he was first choice at Ulster (and thus would no doubt have become first choice for Ireland).

I think Marshall being developed then would be a much more valuable player now (may well have gotten to Lions level given the same amount of development work as Murray) had Pienaar played 10, than the situation where Pienaar played 9 and Jackson was developed instead (and given similar "murray" treatment of being picked for Ireland even though not good enough, but he didn't respond and develop like Murray did - still very iffy club level player)

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Ah here, Marshall a Lion?

irishbucsfan

If you're talking about where Marshall and Murray were back then, Marshall was one of Ulster fans most hated players! They had no faith in him!

jamiedav2011

[Jackass] wrote: »

Just to clarify, I was talking about where Marshall and Murray where about 2 years ago, when Murray became first choice scrum-half for Ireland after about 11 Munster appearances, and where Marshall was (miles ahead of Murray, who took a year or so to get to an acceptable European level, let alone international level, see Lions thread for my praise of deserving to tour since then if you think this is bashing him, it's just pointing out how far behind he was Marshall at the time) and where Marshall could be now if he was first choice at Ulster (and thus would no doubt have become first choice for Ireland).

I think Marshall being developed then would be a much more valuable player now (may well have gotten to Lions level given the same amount of development work as Murray) had Pienaar played 10, than the situation where Pienaar played 9 and Jackson was developed instead (and given similar "murray" treatment of being picked for Ireland even though not good enough, but he didn't respond and develop like Murray did - still very iffy club level player)

What?! Seriously what are you on about Jackass! Marshall a potential Lion is hilarious! He's 28 now and not the closest relation of even a top level international SH.

Murray might not have been ready at that time, but Marshall at that stage was 26, and had barely got a new Ulster contract iirc.

Again, people seem to think that Paul Marshall is this young speedster with buckets of potential! He's done well for Ulster coming on in some HEC games, and is a speedy option.
But I would love to hear Bliston or Awec's thoughts on where he was in early tbh, because my recollection isn't that he was so far ahead of even Murray.

Crazy stuff.

Mahatma Geansai

Are all of Ulster's NIEs out of contract this season? If so, its really time for Ulster to shít or get off the pot. They have some great young players coming through, but they are of little use when most/all of Ulster's NIEs will be on their way at the end of the season. I can't imagine that the IRFU will be offering up extra funds again which could be used for more top class players.

Big season for Jackson too. With Pienaar on the way out, he has a season to show that he can perform without Pienaar holding his hand, or Ulster may be looking to bring in a Gopperth-like player for next season.

shuffol

John Cooney for Chris Farrell, simple.

FrannoFan

former legend wrote: »

With no other NIQs playing at 9 in the other provinces, you'd imagine that it won't be enforced, particularly if the natives aren't making a very strong case that they are up to it (which at the moment, they're not).

Obviously, it's highly unlikely that they'll get anyone of the quality of Pienaar.

But then again, is Pienaar holding Jackson back?

Murray goes to France and the race is on for the NIQ scrum half!

Buer

FrannoFan wrote: »

Murray goes to France and the race is on for the NIQ scrum half!

Well, if the IRFU apply their guidelines, Ulster aren't allowed to replace a NIQ with another NIQ in the same position so Munster have a free run at it. Can't see Leinster being interested quite yet.

Winters

Buer wrote: »

Well, if the IRFU apply their guidelines, Ulster aren't allowed to replace a NIQ with another NIQ in the same position so Munster have a free run at it. Can't see Leinster being interested quite yet.

Doesnt that apply to Afoa, Muller and Williams too? Are all four players out of contract in June 2014?

Buer

Winters wrote: »

Doesnt that apply to Afoa, Muller and Williams too? Are all four players out of contract in June 2014?

Yup. There will be wiggle room on them though. For example, say Ulster claim Muller was signed as a tighthead lock and can bring in a loosehead lock. Or sign a flanker that can play 8 for Williams. A specialist position like scrum half would be harder to get around though, I imagine.

I think they'll allow Ulster to sign a replacement tighthead or scrumhalf as a compromise but not both.

mogwai81

Ulster XV and replacements to face Connacht, RaboDirect PRO12, The Sportsground, Saturday 21st September (kick off 18:45);



(15-9): J Payne, D McIlwaine, D Cave, L Marshall, M Allen, P Jackson, I Porter; (1-8): T Court, R Herring, D Fitzpatrick, J Muller (Captain), I Henderson, R Wilson, C Henry, N Williams; Replacements (16-23): N Annett, K McCall, R Lutton, L Stevenson, R Diack, P Marshall, J McKinney, C Gilroy.

awec

Henderson at lock

shuffol

Interesting selection, Marshall benching for the second week in a row looks significant. Henderson in the row a sign of things to come potentially, Wilson was excellent last week and Williams is a nailed on starter for most games. Wonder does Anscombe see that as his strongest back 5.

awec

Buer wrote: »

Yup. There will be wiggle room on them though. For example, say Ulster claim Muller was signed as a tighthead lock and can bring in a loosehead lock. Or sign a flanker that can play 8 for Williams. A specialist position like scrum half would be harder to get around though, I imagine.

I think they'll allow Ulster to sign a replacement tighthead or scrumhalf as a compromise but not both.

Yes.

I fear we'll end up with a not as strong player in both positions. If Fitzpatrick could hold some fitness that would be good - I have to admit I don't know much about our backup 9s outside of Marshall so not sure of their real potential.

.ak

I like Porter. Seems to have a real solidness about his play that perhaps Marshall/Heaney don't have. Having said that, don't think he has the experience to take a major team like Ulster and use them to their full effect.

the perfect ten

I thought Porter did well last week against Glasgow - he got the ball away quickly and I was especially impressed with his box kicking which gave his chasers a real chance to compete.

the_doctor199

Strong team out for tomorrow night, interesting to see Gilroy at 15 and Payne at 13.

(15-9): C Gilroy, T Bowe, J Payne, L Marshall, M Allen, P Jackson, P Marshall;
(1-8): T Court, R Best (Captain), R Lutton, I Henderson, D Tuohy, R Diack, C Henry, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): R Herring, C Black, B Ross, L Stevenson, N Williams, M Heaney, J McKinney, D Cave.

awec

That's interesting alright. This Payne at 13 could be a sign of things to come. Maybe Joe has had a word?

When is Afoa back?

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

the_doctor199 wrote: »

Strong team out for tomorrow night, interesting to see Gilroy at 15 and Payne at 13.

(15-9): C Gilroy, T Bowe, J Payne, L Marshall, M Allen, P Jackson, P Marshall;
(1-8): T Court, R Best (Captain), R Lutton, I Henderson, D Tuohy, R Diack, C Henry, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): R Herring, C Black, B Ross, L Stevenson, N Williams, M Heaney, J McKinney, D Cave.

Gilroy at 15 is interesting, as is Payne at 13

Another poor performance from Jackson at 10 and I wouldn't be surprised to see Marshall get a run there

former legend

the_doctor199 wrote: »

Strong team out for tomorrow night, interesting to see Gilroy at 15 and Payne at 13.

That is interesting. And it's good news for Ireland in their search for a long-term successor to O'Driscoll.

I wonder is this Anscombe exploring his options in terms of getting his best 15 players on the pitch, i.e. when Trimble is back, either he or Gilroy would have to lose out but if Gilroy can play 15 and Payne 13, suddenly Ulster are making great use of their resources and could well have the best backline of all the provinces.

Bad omen for Darren Cave though.

launish116

Wish they would leave payne at fullback! He's a world class fullback and should be staying there, as for ulsters needs he has more impact from 15!

bilston

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Gilroy at 15 is interesting, as is Payne at 13

Another poor performance from Jackson at 10 and I wouldn't be surprised to see Marshall get a run there

Not that I share your opinion on Jackson's alleged poor performances but if anyone else were to be tried there other than McKinney I think it would be Olding before Marshall.

It's a moot point anyway, one missed kick aside Jackson was very good against Glasgow and in the second half against Connacht he was more or less faultless leading his side to victory. He is inconsistant but then nearly all 21 year old out halfs are.

bilston

launish116 wrote: »

Wish they would leave payne at fullback! He's a world class fullback and should be staying there, as for ulsters needs he has more impact from 15!

Gilroy's positioning at 15 is a worry but for all the fair criticism his kicking got after the Welsh game in February if you remember the Castres away match in the HEC, he play FB there and his kicking was actually really good. As an attacking weapon from full back he could be devastating.

molloyjh

bilston wrote: »

Not that I share your opinion on Jackson's alleged poor performances but if anyone else were to be tried there other than McKinney I think it would be Olding before Marshall.

It's a moot point anyway, one missed kick aside Jackson was very good against Glasgow and in the second half against Connacht he was more or less faultless leading his side to victory. He is inconsistant but then nearly all 21 year old out halfs are.

His kicking seems to be the only real issue. I thought with ball in hand he looked very good against Connacht (didn't see the Glasgow game). The big thing really is that his kicking has been an on-going issue so something does need to be done to address that. Whether there's an option to take the kicking duties from him like they did with Madigan until such a time as he's ready to take it on again I don't know. But I wouldn't be too quick to label Jackson as being poor. It was the same against Scotland in the 6Ns. He was excellent in open play, but the focus ended up being on his kicking and he was nearly judged on that and that alone.

launish116

bilston wrote: »

Gilroy's positioning at 15 is a worry but for all the fair criticism his kicking got after the Welsh game in February if you remember the Castres away match in the HEC, he play FB there and his kicking was actually really good. As an attacking weapon from full back he could be devastating.

At that tage his kicking was poor and it was ovious homework and pratice had been done to improve that for him playing at 15, but the way payne joins the lion means he is more useful at 15, I even thought bowe during the lions had a bit of paynes lines popping up in mid field!

bilston

launish116 wrote: »

At that tage his kicking was poor and it was ovious homework and pratice had been done to improve that for him playing at 15, but the way payne joins the lion means he is more useful at 15, I even thought bowe during the lions had a bit of paynes lines popping up in mid field!

I have to admit I'd always be inclined to move Tommy to 15 before Gilroy. Bowe has played there a few times for Ulster, I remember one game in Treviso before his move to Wales where he was terrific. He picks such clever lines as well.

shuffol

It looks like Cave's position in the side will be under scrutiny which I didnt expect given how important he is defensively. Whats the story with Olding and Wallace?

damianmcr

Olding will likely be back next week. He was injured in training a few weeks ago.

Wallace is out until at least December I think with an injury from last season.

Afoa was a possibility for this match so should be back next week.

bilston

shuffol wrote: »

It looks like Cave's position in the side will be under scrutiny which I didnt expect given how important he is defensively. Whats the story with Olding and Wallace?

I think Olding was pretty close this week, not sure about Wallace.

You could read a lot into the centre selection, but at the same time it may be more that Anscombe is surveying his options at 15 rather than at 13. If Payne gets injured then there is a huge gap from him to the next 15 available, where as if Cave gets injured then there are a whole host of players waiting to step in.

damianmcr

Its likely just rotation too. I wouldnt be thinking of it that Cave is dropped.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

damianmcr wrote: »

Its likely just rotation too. I wouldnt be thinking of it that Cave is dropped.

15 Gilroy
14 Bowe
13 Payne
12 Marshall
11 Trimble
10 Jackson
9 Piennaar

Could potentially be the starting backline at Ulster this seasonn. A spicy meatball of a backline!

bilston

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

15 Gilroy
14 Bowe
13 Payne
12 Marshall
11 Trimble
10 Jackson
9 Piennaar

Could potentially be the starting backline at Ulster this seasonn. A spicy meatball of a backline!

Not bad with P.Marshall (say what you like he usually delivers as a replacement), Olding and Cave as replacements.

Still think you'd be wanting to swap Bowe and Gilroy though.

irishbucsfan

No idea why you'd want to take Bowe off the wing!

ScissorPaperRock

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

15 Gilroy
14 Bowe
13 Payne
12 Marshall
11 Trimble
10 Jackson
9 Piennaar

Could potentially be the starting backline at Ulster this seasonn. A spicy meatball of a backline!

It would be a pity to see Olding missing out on gametime, but I suppose there's a question of where does he fit in that backline. I'd also like to see him tried at 13, so that would see Payne back at 15, and either Trimble or Gilroy losing out.