Ulster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No idea why you'd want to take Bowe off the wing!

Well yes that's obviously the main counter argument.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Heaslip to Ulster.....

awec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bq9bm3nDAYg

Craig ain't too bad at football!

Buer

damianmcr wrote: »

Its likely just rotation too. I wouldnt be thinking of it that Cave is dropped.

To be honest, I think there's a very good chance he'll be dropped when the big games come along unless he really starts catching the eye when on the field. If the choices are Cave up against Marshall and Olding for the centre spot or to bring Payne into the centre to allow Gilroy, Bowe and Trimble all on the field together then Cave's place looks precarious.

jamiedav2011

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Heaslip to Ulster.....

Jamie looks like he had a few shandies the night before this was taken!

jacothelad

bilston wrote: »

Gilroy's positioning at 15 is a worry but for all the fair criticism his kicking got after the Welsh game in February if you remember the Castres away match in the HEC, he play FB there and his kicking was actually really good. As an attacking weapon from full back he could be devastating.

The kicking 'issue' was invented by that loonbagbrilliantly astute observer and commentator, Captain Hook. He was looking for some negative spin to put on a player's performance so he - as he often does - just makes it up as he goes along. This was siezed upon by those who wished Gilroy to fail. Gilroy in fact kicked the ball 4 times in the game and none of them were terrible kicks. Compared to some of the bilge that some players served up in the 6 N's Gilroy was pretty o.k. We still read a load of bilge about him from the same posters.

mfceiling

jacothelad wrote: »

The kicking 'issue' was invented by that loonbagbrilliantly astute observer and commentator, Captain Hook. He was looking for some negative spin to put on a player's performance so he - as he often does - just makes it up as he goes along. This was siezed upon by those who wished Gilroy to fail. Gilroy in fact kicked the ball 4 times in the game and none of them were terrible kicks. Compared to some of the bilge that some players served up in the 6 N's Gilroy was pretty o.k. We still read a load of bilge about him from the same posters.

Was just about to post the same jaco.....i think one of his kicks wasn't great - not horrific, just not great.

Of course Hook needs something to find wrong with a player so he
pulled gilroy on that.

damianmcr

Buer wrote: »

To be honest, I think there's a very good chance he'll be dropped when the big games come along unless he really starts catching the eye when on the field. If the choices are Cave up against Marshall and Olding for the centre spot or to bring Payne into the centre to allow Gilroy, Bowe and Trimble all on the field together then Cave's place looks precarious.

I think thats rubbish. If you watch Cave he puts in a lot of work and actually makes a few yards. He wont set the world alight but he is good.

Payne is far better at fb than anyone else we have.

Tox56

damianmcr wrote: »

I think thats rubbish. If you watch Cave he puts in a lot of work and actually makes a few yards. He wont set the world alight but he is good.

Payne is far better at fb than anyone else we have.

The difference being a player like Payne can set the world alight, if moving him to 13 means Ulster can get all 3 of Bowe, Trimble and Gilroy on the field that is another significant bonus. Cave of 2012 would be another story, but I think his form has noticeably dipped recently, and he will face a lot of pressure for his place.

Your 2nd paragraph is probably true and it is the main counter argument, but if Gilroy is given more games like this at fullback and proves a revelation at 15, there is a big decision to be made

Swan Curry

Cave will be 28 when his contract runs out,and if his form doesn't return to 2012 levels he'll be down the pecking order at Ulster.If he doesn't move then,it will be difficult for him to get a good contract afterwards.I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that in 2015,Darren Cave will move to another club.If he does,I hope he gets to go somewhere that plays good rugby and doesn't just use him to bash it up.He's too good for that.

Mahatma Geansai

I wouldn't be surprised to see Cave drop out of the Ulster squad. He's an intelligent player, but he isn't excellent at anything. A Trimble/Gilroy/Bowe back 3 with Payne at 13 is definitely the best use of resources.

bilston

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised to see Cave drop out of the Ulster squad. He's an intelligent player, but he isn't excellent at anything. A Trimble/Gilroy/Bowe back 3 with Payne at 13 is definitely the best use of resources.

He is excellent in defence. He is a clever player, he isn't explosive like BOD (was) or Earls and Olding are but he is important to the Ulster side.

Buer

damianmcr wrote: »

I think thats rubbish. If you watch Cave he puts in a lot of work and actually makes a few yards. He wont set the world alight but he is good.

Payne is far better at fb than anyone else we have.

Payne is a better fullback, absolutely. But is he also a better 13? Or is Marshall a better 13 outside of Olding?

To my mind, Cave's position is not nearly as solid as it was even 18 months ago. Then, he was a real lynchpin of the side. But now, he hasn't consistently delivered in about a year.

There have been a few eyebrow raising selections when Cave is available. Payne is at 13 tonight with Cave on the bench. Marshall was at 13 two weeks ago with Cave on the bench. During the 6N last season, when you'd want your more experienced players on the field, Cave was left on the bench to play firstly Marshall and then Andrew Trimble at 13. Those were very important league games against Glasgow and the Ospreys.

He's a very talented bloke and, at his best, should be in the Irish set up. However, he's not at his best and I think Anscombe is definitely tinkering around for the past while to see how best to use the resources at his disposal with Cave looking to be the most likely fall guy based both on his performances and the selections this year.

jamiedav2011

Buer wrote: »

Payne is a better fullback, absolutely. But is he also a better 13? Or is Marshall a better 13 outside of Olding?

To my mind, Cave's position is not nearly as solid as it was even 18 months ago. Then, he was a real lynchpin of the side. But now, he hasn't consistently delivered in about a year.

There have been a few eyebrow raising selections when Cave is available. Payne is at 13 tonight with Cave on the bench. Marshall was at 13 two weeks ago with Cave on the bench. During the 6N last season, when you'd want your more experienced players on the field, Cave was left on the bench to play firstly Marshall and then Andrew Trimble at 13. Those were very important league games against Glasgow and the Ospreys.

He's a very talented bloke and, at his best, should be in the Irish set up. However, he's not at his best and I think Anscombe is definitely tinkering around for the past while to see how best to use the resources at his disposal with Cave looking to be the most likely fall guy based both on his performances and the selections this year.

So Cave to Leinster you're saying then...

Buer

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

So Cave to Leinster you're saying then...

Cave of 2010 to Leinster. Cave of 2013 to England if he ever leaves.

Utah_Saint

Cave would be a great fit for Connacht, especially if Leinster have an eye on Henshaw

bilston

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Cave would be a great fit for Connacht, especially if Leinster have an eye on Henshaw

You go onto UAFC and suggest that...

jamiedav2011

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Cave would be a great fit for Connacht, especially if Leinster have an eye on Henshaw

Done!

Utah_Saint

bilston wrote: »

You go onto UAFC and suggest that...

No....:( i might not be allowed to attend any more home games!!!

Utah_Saint

What I'm trying to say is Cave is too good to be benched often, but doesn't have that cutting edge that is demanded from a top European sides Centre. The fact management are looking at different combinations at 12/13 shows they are not sold on him being the long term 13 for Ulster & potentially Ireland.

I'd take Cave at Leinster in a heartbeat

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Mackan looks a serious prospect if he can sort his defense. I wouldn't like to see Cave move and potentially delay his development

former legend

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Cave would be a great fit for Connacht, especially if Leinster have an eye on Henshaw

Eh?

damianmcr

I suppose this all depends on our signings next year. If Ulster bring in another full back next season then we will see.

awec

I wonder with Pienaar leaving will we move for Marmion or Luke McGrath?

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd take Cave at Leinster in a heartbeat

I'd have zero interest in him based on the last 9 months, to be honest. The dip in form has gone on too long. He's gone from being a vastly underrated and intelligent player in the 23 against NZ to being a bloke that could conceivably be second choice at any of the provinces.

Now that's probably overstating the case somewhat but the guy simply isn't getting much game time and, when he is, he's not doing enough with it. He's tidy still but but is very quiet. A touch of standing still when guys like Olding, Macken, Marshall, Henshaw etc. are all making strides and catching the eye.

bilston

awec wrote: »

I wonder with Pienaar leaving will we move for Marmion or Luke McGrath?

Given the age of Boss and Reddan I can't see McGrath leaving Leinster.

Don't think the Pienaar move to Toulon is by any means set in stone.

Niallof9

Buer wrote: »

Now that's probably overstating the case somewhat but the guy simply isn't getting much game time and, when he is, he's not doing enough with it. He's tidy still but but is very quiet. A touch of standing still when guys like Olding, Macken, Marshall, Henshaw etc. are all making strides and catching the eye.

He's ahead of Macken at the moment, no question and any Leinster fans saying the opposite is being hugely biased. IMO Olding could be the dark horse for 13, has similar movement to a young Drico. If Marshall is 12 and Jackson 10, where else? Perfect fit. I do agree that a move for Cave might be the best thing.

Buer

Niallof9 wrote: »

He's ahead of Macken at the moment, no question and any Leinster fans saying the opposite is being hugely biased. IMO Olding could be the dark horse for 13, has similar movement to a young Drico. If Marshall is 12 and Jackson 10, where else? Perfect fit. I do agree that a move for Cave might be the best thing.

Well, Marshall has been the one accommodating by moving to 13 thus far so who knows how it will play out. He has done alright there too.

I don't think anyone considers Macken to be better than Cave (unless I've missed a post) but what I'd say is that Macken is 22 and Cave is 26. Given the improvements that Macken has made in the past year and their respective starts to the season, I'd rather see how Macken gets on than sign a bloke who hasn't played to his potential in quite some time.

I think it's going to be very interesting for Ulster in the next two weeks when they finally bite the bullet and chose their first choice back line.

Niallof9

Buer wrote: »

Well, Marshall has been the one accommodating by moving to 13 thus far so who knows how it will play out. He has done alright there too.

I don't think anyone considers Macken to be better than Cave (unless I've missed a post) but what I'd say is that Macken is 22 and Cave is 26. Given the improvements that Macken has made in the past year and their respective starts to the season, I'd rather see how Macken gets on than sign a bloke who hasn't played to his potential in quite some time.

I think it's going to be very interesting for Ulster in the next two weeks when they finally bite the bullet and chose their first choice back line.

Somebody did say that in a roundabout way. Yeah true, but Marshall's core game is both strength and kicking a perfect mix for 12, being a former out-half so i think he will be Irelands 12 in the 6 nations. going by that the 13 is up for grabs after Drico. Olding is my bet, obviously defence is a major test for 13 so it will be interesting.

student1990

if(a huge if) macken can improve defensively he will be a major factor

Sinbad_NI

Guys like Cave will be vital later in the season when injuries start to take effect and during intentional window.

Still has a lot to offer this season and beyond.

Buer

How did Payne go at 13, folks? I only watched about 35 minutes with Leinster on. Seemed quiet enough but was being used regularly as a second playmaker in early stages. Couple of scoring passes. Something that will be looked at again?

Sinbad_NI

Buer wrote: »

How did Payne go at 13, folks? I only watched about 35 minutes with Leinster on. Seemed quiet enough but was being used regularly as a second playmaker in early stages. Couple of scoring passes. Something that will be looked at again?

Looked good as ever, but was in Luke Marshall's shadow.

Personally I prefer him at 15.

Utah_Saint

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

Looked good as ever, but was in Luke Marshall's shadow.

Personally I prefer him at 15.

I agree, Payne back to 15....

bilston

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

Looked good as ever, but was in Luke Marshall's shadow.

Personally I prefer him at 15.

Have to say that that looked like a potentially very good centre pairing on Friday. They linked up very well, after a few more games together they could be very good. Of course the likes of Cave and Olding need to be considered as well.

If Pienaar leaves at the end of the season what odds Ulster go in for a NIQ goalkicking FB to facilitate Payne's possible move to 13?

Glass Prison 1214

bilston wrote: »

Have to say that that looked like a potentially very good centre pairing on Friday. They linked up very well, after a few more games together they could be very good. Of course the likes of Cave and Olding need to be considered as well.

If Pienaar leaves at the end of the season what odds Ulster go in for a NIQ goalkicking FB to facilitate Payne's possible move to 13?

So your saying Ulster are signing Leigh Halfpenny?

matthew8

Glass Prison 1214 wrote: »

So your saying Ulster are signing Leigh Halfpenny?

Coach's son Gareth Anscombe more likely.

bilston

Glass Prison 1214 wrote: »

So your saying Ulster are signing Leigh Halfpenny?

If only.

No it just seems like a good plan, if we are losing Pienaar then perhaps a goalkicking FB is the way to go, assuming we aren't allowed a scrum half. The problem there of course is that Leinster have Kirchner. Is Kirchner solely a Full Back or is just a general back three player?

Buer

matthew8 wrote: »

Coach's son Gareth Anscombe more likely.

If Halfpenny leaves Wales, watch this space, I reckon. Anscombe is Welsh qualified and Wales are a tempting nation to play for.

ScissorPaperRock

Buer wrote: »

If Halfpenny leaves Wales, watch this space, I reckon. Anscombe is Welsh qualified and Wales are a tempting nation to play for.

Can't see them leaving Halfpenny out of the squad though, even if he moves abroad!

.ak

Anscombe can play 10, can't he? That's a position that Wales haven't really excelled in.

Sinbad_NI

bilston wrote: »

If only.

No it just seems like a good plan, if we are losing Pienaar then perhaps a goalkicking FB is the way to go, assuming we aren't allowed a scrum half. The problem there of course is that Leinster have Kirchner. Is Kirchner solely a Full Back or is just a general back three player?

Unfortunately it looks like it's required. PJ doesn't seem to be ready for the place kicking this season. It's going to cost us critical wins if not resolved very soon.

bilston

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

Unfortunately it looks like it's required. PJ doesn't seem to be ready for the place kicking this season. It's going to cost us critical wins if not resolved very soon.

It's a problem for him, the rest of his game was excellent against Treviso and likewise Glasgow and in the second half against Connacht so he is playing well but his kicking stats are nowhere near good enough. There is anothe rpossible way around it and that is to use for the young local lads and not just rely on NIQs. Both Olding and Marshall are good goal kickers and presumably one of them will be playing outside him so why not use them.

I keep using this example but Stephen Larkham couldn't kick for toffee. He is remembered as one of the best out halves of the pro era. Imagine there was no Matt Burke though, there probably would have been no Stephen Larkham!

jacothelad

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

Unfortunately it looks like it's required. PJ doesn't seem to be ready for the place kicking this season. It's going to cost us critical wins if not resolved very soon.

It already has. WE had enough kick attempts to beat the Dragons and we sure as hell had enough chances to get even a bonus point win against Glasgae.The question for me is this. Since dHumph was kicking well - about 2005/6 we have lost game after game after game, not because we were necessarily the inferior side but because our kickers couldn't regularly kick a dead granny tied to their boot. WE all know the old mantra about repeating the same mistakes ad infinitum - well step forward Ulster. There are better goal kickers within the squad than Paddy Jackson. Porter for example was at one time a very good kicker indeed. Why Ulster at least didn't even attempt to sign Steenson is mystifying.

The whole point of the game is to score more points than the opposition. Denying the obvious that young PJ is in the recent tradition of having the kicking skills of a one legged unicyclist is maddening in the extreme. I know it is disliked by many but using overseas 'granny qualified' players is something in the pro era that we cannot ignore. If we need to use NIE and NIQ players to ensure a) our on field success and therefore financial security - and b) the future of our International side in competition with financial and player available rugby giants like France, England, South Africa and of course the ABs. All the Irish sides have an ambition to stay at the top table. Well, if we have great players serving uo great rugby only to be failed by poor goal kicking then we need to address this immediately.

In my professional life I was from time to time colleagues with a few people who were qualified up the Khyber with doctorates and walls covered with diplomas and awards. All very well but none of them could deliver a lecture. Their idea of it was to photo copy a physiology text and read it out. The equivalent if you like of having all the knowledge and ability to understand the theory of how to kick a rugby ball at a set of goal posts but not being able to get the ball off the ground. Eventually the crap lecturers were shoved sideways ( we couldn't sack them). I see no problem with taking the kicking job away from P.J. if there is - and there are - a few guys better equipped for the job. If P.J comes up to snuff, and he can, as did Madigan, then there is a better player for Ulster and Ireland.

thomond2006

Quality rant!

jacothelad

thomond2006 wrote: »

Quality rant!

I'm sitting in a beautiful old cottage on the shores of Loch Hourn on the West Coast of Scotland. Internet access from the guy next door. I really love Ireland but this place is stunning. There are 5 peaks all over 3,000 feet high across the Loch and two behind the cottage that are also Munros. I would live here in a heartbeat. I'm just about to head out for the Kyle of Lochalsh and the Isle of Skye. The sun is shining. All is right with the world - except for Paddy's feckin goal kicking.

Thing that annoys me most about PJ's kicking is that the day he lined up in the new Lansdowne Road for the first time he had the most perfect style.

That is no longer evident.

Who is to blame for knocking him off kilter? jaco, you've questioned a certain Doak a few times on here before, is he earning his salt?

.ak

Can another one of the 1st XV starters not take the kicks? How is Payne/Marshall with the boot?

Buer

jacothelad wrote: »

I'm sitting in a beautiful old cottage on the shores of Loch Hourn on the West Coast of Scotland. Internet access from the guy next door. I really love Ireland but this place is stunning. There are 5 peaks all over 3,000 feet high across the Loch and two behind the cottage that are also Munros. I would live here in a heartbeat. I'm just about to head out for the Kyle of Lochalsh and the Isle of Skye. The sun is shining. All is right with the world - except for Paddy's feckin goal kicking.

Depressingly similar to a post you made this time last year.