The Mess that is Africa

Thomas828

The worst thing about the mess Africa is in is the debt. Colonial powers had been robbing Africa blind for the whole of the 19th century and most of the 20th.

Then after all these African countries gained independence the good old IMF, out of the goodness of their heart, lent them a few million dollars... and charged interest.

If it wasn't for the massive debt that third world countries will certainly never fully pay off, Africa would be in a better position. There wouldn't be so much corruption or such a high birth rate.

Einhard

brianthebard wrote: »

there's no ethnic difference between mayo and galway people, but they know the difference don't they?

Eh, not exactly the same thing really. The Tutsis and the Hutus see themselves, and are seen, as different tribes. If there's no ethnic or cultural difference bwteen them, how did this come about? And how could the Belgians foster such catastrophic divisions amongst a seemingly united people? It's a genuine question, I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything.

brianthebard

Einhard wrote: »

Eh, not exactly the same thing really. The Tutsis and the Hutus see themselves, and are seen, as different tribes. If there's no ethnic or cultural difference bwteen them, how did this come about? And how could the Belgians foster such catastrophic divisions amongst a seemingly united people? It's a genuine question, I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything.

It is the same thing though, tribe is just a word that people use to describe other groups of people when they either don't understand or don't want to understand what sort of community exists. I didn't say they were united I just said that the division between the two groups was artificially heightened when the belgians favoured one group instead of another for the purposes of creating a class system between the two for their advantage. It was a common policy by colonialists.

pickarooney

The one overriding factor in Africa's sorry plight is inadeqaute communication. Everything else is a direct consequence.

Africa's a hopeless cause.. I don't care about the colonisation etc. Stop having children if you can't feed yourself. Stop spreading Aids. Stop shooting each other. Stop making gangrape a social activity. Stop raping children to get rid of Aids. Stop murdering politicians.

It's all pretty obvious stuff and I guess I am a racist.

Jesus Wept

The amount of people living in extreme poverty that have kids is insane.
I don't understand the mindset.

GodlessInfidel

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

A lot of posters have correctly pointed out a lot of the reasons for Africa's woes. Exploitation, colonialism and debt have all played their part no doubt. But African's themselves have also had a say in their current plight, it might not be PC to say it but it's reality. Many African nations have been independent for quiet a while now, yet continue to go retrograde. Less focus a tribalism and perhaps more of an emphasis on national unity might be a helpful start. Rwanda was the ultimate example of tribal butchery. Governments obsessed with acquiring weaponry rather than building a viable nation, has been a common problem. Perhaps if there was a total ban on weapon sales on the African continent, that might foster non-aggression and mature dialogue rather that the alternative which we have seen for far to long.

The Belgians made a complete mess of Rwanda, giving preferential treatment to Tutsis over the Hutus. Resentment grew and grew until it reached boiling point and that awful genocide was the result. The book : 'We wish to inform you that tomorrow we will be killed with our families: Stories from Rwanda' by Philip Gourevitch, gives a great insight and reveals the complete inadequacies of the U.N

General Zod

Deleted User wrote: »

Africa's a hopeless cause.. I don't care about the colonisation etc. Stop having children if you can't feed yourself. Stop spreading Aids. Stop shooting each other. Stop making gangrape a social activity. Stop raping children to get rid of Aids. Stop murdering politicians.

It's all pretty obvious stuff and I guess I am a racist.

apart from the generalisations about africa, people don't comprehend the scale of the continent

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2010/10/the-true-size-and-importance-of-africa-map.php

my point is this, all the types of activities you mention are also just as common in all the countries that could fit into the African continent.

Mr Benevolent

Deleted User wrote: »

Africa's a hopeless cause.. I don't care about the colonisation etc. Stop having children if you can't feed yourself. Stop spreading Aids. Stop shooting each other. Stop making gangrape a social activity. Stop raping children to get rid of Aids. Stop murdering politicians.

It's all pretty obvious stuff and I guess I am a racist.

Do you know anything about Africa outside what you read in the Daily Mail?

pickarooney

GodlessInfidel wrote: »

The Belgians made a complete mess of Rwanda, giving preferential treatment to Tutsis over the Hutus. Resentment grew and grew until it reached boiling point and that awful genocide was the result. The book : 'We wish to inform you that tomorrow we will be killed with our families: Stories from Rwanda' by Philip Gourevitch, gives a great insight and reveals the complete inadequacies of the U.N

Well, in fairness their own country is a complete mess of a model of a similar design.

Dermighty

All the problems Africa has will correct themselves. Disease, famine etc will wipe out the excess population (which can't be supported anyway as a direct result of food shortages) and the whole cycle will repeat itself over and over.

goose2005

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

My thinking is if the western world had left them to fcuk alone in the first place they would be fine.

But even the countries that were barely colonised haven't turned out well - Ethiopia, Liberia, etc.

OisinT wrote: »

The same thing can be said about the middle east IMHO.

Yes, it was a paradise under Ottoman rule.:rolleyes:

mariebeth wrote: »

From what I've read, Africa is in the state it is because of the countries that colonised it. They created country borders that suited them, not taking in to account all the different native tribes and their traditional boundaries. Apparently that is one of the reasons for all the civil wars and corruption.

One reason, but hardly the only reason. The borders in the Americas were drawn up in similar fashion. And if we gave one country to every "tribe" there would be hundreds of them, and there would still be wars.

smug

scientific1982 wrote: »

Yes, Africa's problems are primarily a result of malign Western influence.

As Einhard has stated, Africa's problems are complex and not "primarily" the result of "malign" Western influence, but you seem intent on pushing this agenda of "it's all Whitey's fault".

Fratton Fred

goose2005 wrote: »

But even the countries that were barely colonised haven't turned out well - Ethiopia, Liberia, etc.


Yes, it was a paradise under Ottoman rule.:rolleyes:


One reason, but hardly the only reason. The borders in the Americas were drawn up in similar fashion. And if we gave one country to every "tribe" there would be hundreds of them, and there would still be wars.

Big difference with south America though was that the locals soon got wiped out or vastly outnumbered by settlers and slaves.

Bottle_of_Smoke

If Africa was prosperous the cost of everything in the west would go up.... Hmmmm

lso it should never be referred to as one entity - it is f*cking massive. Like referring to everywhere from Dublin to Hong Kong and Indonesia to Siberia as one entity

yermandan

http://www.essayforum.com/writing-feedback-3/modernization-vs-dependency-theory-9052/

scientific1982

smug wrote: »

As Einhard has stated, Africa's problems are complex and not "primarily" the result of "malign" Western influence, but you seem intent on pushing this agenda of "it's all Whitey's fault".

Dont try and put words in my mouth. Anyone with half a brain can see that the blame primarily lays with the West. As for having an agenda, this might sound cruel but I dont give a **** if someone I dont know dies.

smug

I repeated exactly what you said, I didn't "put words in your mouth". So to repeat, the blame does not "primarily" lie with the West, it is far more complex than that. You have a blatant anti-Western agenda here for some reason who knows, maybe because it's fashionable and acceptable to be so at the moment, or for white guilt or something. Anyone with half a brain as you say can see that.

kraggy

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't really know where to post this so here will do for now! Firstly, I am not racist or anything like that. I was just thinking one day is it me or are a lot of African countries just incapable of self rule or governing themselves, and as a consequence that is why they are so poor and not highly developed -as opposed to being poor due to the Western world's greedy economic and colonial policies. I mean you have the dictatorships and then the supposedly democratic countries that are just rife with eternal conflict. It seems no group or tribe wants to be governed by the other, and are willing to kill and disturb the peace to get what they want. Also, having children while residing at a refugee camp seems ridiculous to me yet its what happens. The continent is rife with HIV, yet they still going around spreading the disease like there is no tomorrow. It's almost as if they don't want to help themselves. I can only think of Botswana as an example of a democratic country that is really progressing. Maybe South Africa, but that place is a (beautiful) mess. There is a lot of money going into Africa via aid, charities, etc. but is the continent ever going to develop properly, have law and order, a sophisticated economy, etc? On the other-hand, if Africa was as developed as the West, it would loose some of unique, exciting, diverse and unspoiled features, if you understand me?!

See that part that I've enboldened. That's Europe's fault.

Back in 1884, a map of Africa was placed on a table and the Brits, Portuguese, Belgians and French basically sliced the "cake" into different shapes and said "we'll take this, you have this and you guys have this bit" etc etc

And so, communities that were once part of the same country were now all of a sudden in different countries. A community that was once a majority in its own country now found itself to be a minority in another.

If you look at the borders in Africa, many are straight lines for hundreds of miles. That goes back to 1884.

But that's not to say that all of Africa's problems are the Europeans' fault. They have ****ed up a lot of stuff on their own and the mind boggles when one looks at their attitudes towards some things.

But the old colonial powers have a lot to answer for.

"At the time of the conference, 80% of Africa remained under traditional and local control. What ultimately resulted was a hodgepodge of geometric boundaries that divided Africa into fifty irregular countries. This new map of the continent was superimposed over the one thousand indigenous cultures and regions of Africa. The new countries lacked rhyme or reason and divided coherent groups of people and merged together disparate groups who really did not get along."

http://geography.about.com/cs/politicalgeog/a/berlinconferenc.htm

scientific1982

smug wrote: »

I repeated exactly what you said, I didn't "put words in your mouth". So to repeat, the blame does not "primarily" lie with the West, it is far more complex than that. You have a blatant anti-Western agenda here for some reason who knows, maybe because it's fashionable and acceptable to be so at the moment, or for white guilt or something. Anyone with half a brain as you say can see that.

I never said "it's all Whitey's fault". So you did fcuking put words in my mouth. Also why dont you back up your statement that "the blame does not "primarily" lie with the West, it is far more complex than that".


Another thing. WHy would I have white guilt, I'm Irish.

bnt

Fight_Night wrote: »

Corrupt leaders and dictators aren't exactly something new and exclusive to Africa.

Also take into account that Nigeria has quite a good growing economy, and Egypt isn't in bad shape either.

Nigeria's economy is dominated by fossil fuels: 37% of GDP in 2006 (US State Dept.), probably more by now. Mining is also as massive earner. Can you imagine what Nigeria would be like without those natural resources? I doubt there would be a single country called "Nigeria", for starters. And natural resources, when exploited heavily, don't last forever.

Lagos has a particularly nasty problem with youth gangs, a.k.a. Area Boys.

smug

scientific1982 wrote: »

I never said "it's all Whitey's fault". So you did fcuking put words in my mouth. Also why dont you back up your statement that "the blame does not "primarily" lie with the West, it is far more complex than that".


Another thing. WHy would I have white guilt, I'm Irish.

I merely said that you were pushing that agenda, it wasn't a direct quote.
Look I'm not bothered going to all the trouble of pointing out the reasons for Africas problems, there are plenty of books on it, heres one to start:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/State-Africa-History-Fifty-Independence/dp/0743232216

I'm just sick of people bashing the West, simply because its the popular liberal thing to do. What about all the good that Colonial powers did in Africa? Thats all conveniently forgotten.

Nodin

smug wrote: »

I'm just sick of people bashing the West, simply because its the popular liberal thing to do. What about all the good that Colonial powers did in Africa? Thats all conveniently forgotten.

It's not "forgotten". It's just outweighed by the robbery of wealth and resources, racism, genocide, brutality, deliberate formenting of ethnic conflict, hypocrisy and so on.

brianthebard

smug wrote: »

I merely said that you were pushing that agenda, it wasn't a direct quote.
Look I'm not bothered going to all the trouble of pointing out the reasons for Africas problems, there are plenty of books on it, heres one to start:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/State-Africa-History-Fifty-Independence/dp/0743232216

I'm just sick of people bashing the West, simply because its the popular liberal thing to do. What about all the good that Colonial powers did in Africa? Thats all conveniently forgotten.

Have you actually read that book? I have, and while he does a good line in bashing Africans even Meredith acknowledges constantly the interference of the west since the African independence movements began. Poor attempt to strengthen your argument tbh.

profitius

Nodin wrote: »

It's not "forgotten". It's just outweighed by the robbery of wealth and resources, racism, genocide, brutality, deliberate formenting of ethnic conflict, hypocrisy and so on.

That happened in Ireland too. So whats the best thing to do? Move on or do nothing and blame the British for everything? Theres a limit to how far those excuses can go.

Fratton Fred

brianthebard wrote: »

Have you actually read that book? I have, and while he does a good line in bashing Africans even Meredith acknowledges constantly the interference of the west since the African independence movements began. Poor attempt to strengthen your argument tbh.

Does he mention the role Arabs played as well?

brianthebard

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Does he mention the role Arabs played as well?

After independence?

Nodin

profitius wrote: »

That happened in Ireland too. So whats the best thing to do? Move on or do nothing and blame the British for everything? Theres a limit to how far those excuses can go.

"moving on" isn't the easiest thing to do, particularily given the interference that occurred during the "cold" war. In addition, a good deal of those countries have only been free since the early 60's or so.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Does he mention the role Arabs played as well?

South Africa was part of the Arab Empire until independence? The Congo? Sudan? Egypt? Syria? Lebanon? Palestine?

Bottle_of_Smoke

brianthebard wrote: »

Have you actually read that book? I have, and while he does a good line in bashing Africans even Meredith acknowledges constantly the interference of the west since the African independence movements began. Poor attempt to strengthen your argument tbh.

LOL I couldn't believe he linked to that book

dvpower

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't really know where to post this so here will do for now! Firstly, I am not racist or anything like that. I was just thinking one day is it me or are a lot of African countries just incapable of self rule or governing themselves, and as a consequence that is why they are so poor and not highly developed -as opposed to being poor due to the Western world's greedy economic and colonial policies. I mean you have the dictatorships and then the supposedly democratic countries that are just rife with eternal conflict. It seems no group or tribe wants to be governed by the other, and are willing to kill and disturb the peace to get what they want. Also, having children while residing at a refugee camp seems ridiculous to me yet its what happens. The continent is rife with HIV, yet they still going around spreading the disease like there is no tomorrow. It's almost as if they don't want to help themselves. I can only think of Botswana as an example of a democratic country that is really progressing. Maybe South Africa, but that place is a (beautiful) mess. There is a lot of money going into Africa via aid, charities, etc. but is the continent ever going to develop properly, have law and order, a sophisticated economy, etc? On the other-hand, if Africa was as developed as the West, it would loose some of unique, exciting, diverse and unspoiled features, if you understand me?!

Sub saharan Africa has 6 of the top 10 fastest growing economies in the world - its not all bad news.

gurramok

Nodin wrote: »

South Africa was part of the Arab Empire until independence? The Congo? Sudan? Egypt? Syria? Lebanon? Palestine?

Yeh, did you not hear that the British & French & the Spanish never ruled North Africa or indeed Palestine?:rolleyes:

dvpower wrote:

Sub saharan Africa has 6 of the top 10 fastest growing economies in the world - its not all bad news.
http://media.economist.com/sites/def...8_WOC856_0.gif

Its good news, once the wars and instability ended, the countries can focus on their economies.

brianthebard

dvpower wrote: »

Sub saharan Africa has 6 of the top 10 fastest growing economies in the world - its not all bad news.

That list doesn't take account of any of the conditions within the countries, Nigeria's economy is growing because of its oil, the Congo has always had amazing resources. Its economy appears to be growing in comparison to the past 20 years of warfare. Its not a true measure of improvement in any way.

LionelNashe

Deleted User wrote: »

Firstly, I am not racist or anything like that.

Well you are prone to hyperbole, exaggeration, generalisation and you have a ridiculous ethno-centric viewpoint. That's like being a racist.

Fratton Fred

brianthebard wrote: »

After independence?

No, you know that. Prior to European colonialism the Arabs had a go at Africa. Now it seems the Chinese are as well.

brianthebard

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, you know that. Prior to European colonialism the Arabs had a go at Africa. Now it seems the Chinese are as well.

The books is about African independence.

Fratton Fred

brianthebard wrote: »

That list doesn't take account of any of the conditions within the countries, Nigeria's economy is growing because of its oil, the Congo has always had amazing resources. Its economy appears to be growing in comparison to the past 20 years of warfare. Its not a true measure of improvement in any way.

Angola has oil as well.

Fratton Fred

brianthebard wrote: »

The books is about African independence.

Aah, ok.

scientific1982

smug wrote: »

I merely said that you were pushing that agenda, it wasn't a direct quote.
Look I'm not bothered going to all the trouble of pointing out the reasons for Africas problems, there are plenty of books on it, heres one to start:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/State-Africa-History-Fifty-Independence/dp/0743232216

I'm just sick of people bashing the West, simply because its the popular liberal thing to do. What about all the good that Colonial powers did in Africa? Thats all conveniently forgotten.

Having an opinion that differs from yours does not mean I'm pushing an agenda. And if you're not directly quoting me then dont use quotation marks and state that you have "repeated exactly what you said".

If you cant be bothered to back up your claim, then dont make one in the first place. Heres a book you could read: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Annoying-People-Why-YouRE-Them/dp/1932303774/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1294776008&sr=1-7

brianthebard

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Angola has oil as well.

Yep and it appeared on top of the economist chart for 2001-2010. The other person's link didn't work for me so I'm not sure if we're referring to exactly the same thing but when I did a search I got this; http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/01/daily_chart

Angola is another example, if your economic is depressed or fractured or you're in a war for several years or decades then any growth will appear as a large percentage in comparison. Factor in continual inflation of oil prices and/or minerals and we have the other half of the equation explaining why those countries economies are growing. However the underlying problems of the last 30+ years have not been addressed and so in a while we will no doubt have another thread like this (and similar articles in things like the Economist) asking why Africa hasn't been able to make itself rich.

jugger0

Is there any black country in the world that isnt a ****hole?

Odats

I'm just back after a stint in Kenya and you can see first hand some of the problems that Africa has.
Firstly, when you look at the business' from SME up to PLC the vast majority are Asian (mostly Indian/Pakistani) or White owned especially East Africa. There are few exceptions.
Infrastructure is diabolical and you see that there doesn't seem to be any thought process into particularly road infrastructure. Trying to build a road using sub standard materials and just building them without vacating areas etc (saw a road being built in a middle of a market and supplies basically being robbed)
Black outs of electricity and your exporting your electricity at the same time (makes no sense)
Corruption is rife and tribalism is clearly evident. They are saying they are combating it but realistically it isn't.
Also the way everything is set up is to maintain power to the ruling elite from education at nursery upwards. Some fees for secondary school could be as high as 20,000 euro per year.
Africa could be so much better if managed right and China aren't there for the goodness of their health. They are there for oil and natural resources. Basically de facto colonialism through multi billion dollar loans that will be repaid in oil,gas etc.

ScissorPaperRock

In one sense though, one aspect of what China are doing - building infrastructure rather than using cash to pay for African resources - is a good thing.

At least by building infrastructure they know where the money is going, and it can more or less be guaranteed that the country in question will be benefiting from the deal rather than the pockets of corrupt government officials. Also it reduces the chance that disputes will arise, and threats of strikes etc which are often likely when different government departments and trade unions etc know that there has been an influx of cash.

The problem is that the Africans are often getting a poor deal, not getting as much as they should for their resources. The solution is that companies from more countries start offering infrastructure as payment, and by auctioning resources off the Africans will get better deals.

LionelNashe

LionelNashe wrote: »

Well you are prone to hyperbole, exaggeration, generalisation and you have a ridiculous ethno-centric viewpoint. That's like being a racist.

Where am I exaggerating? I said some African countries were as I described, not all.

While yes I was comparing African culture/direction to that of the West, I did point out in the end of my post that if Africa where to be like the West it would lose it's culture somewhat. So that's not being like a racist, I am simply just stating observations/facts.

danger mouse

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

My thinking is if the western world had left them to fcuk alone in the first place they would be fine.

They were dragged into the modern world over 200 or so years ago.

They went from mud huts to shanty towns. Not much has changed for this continent in the past 200 or so years, they'd still be very much backward if the west had of left them alone.

Tchaikovsky

jugger0 wrote: »

Is there any black country in the world that isnt a ****hole?

France

Fratton Fred

brianthebard wrote: »

Yep and it appeared on top of the economist chart for 2001-2010. The other person's link didn't work for me so I'm not sure if we're referring to exactly the same thing but when I did a search I got this; http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/01/daily_chart

Angola is another example, if your economic is depressed or fractured or you're in a war for several years or decades then any growth will appear as a large percentage in comparison. Factor in continual inflation of oil prices and/or minerals and we have the other half of the equation explaining why those countries economies are growing. However the underlying problems of the last 30+ years have not been addressed and so in a while we will no doubt have another thread like this (and similar articles in things like the Economist) asking why Africa hasn't been able to make itself rich.

It shows the same thing. Angola on top of the list for growth.

I was contracting in BP for a while and obviously several of the guys there had been out to Angola (As, oddly, are two of my neighbours in Dublin). They could see an enormous amount of wealth, in a very small part of Angola, the rest was as poor as it had always been.

As you say, starting with nothing makes growth figures look impressive.

I remember reading this last year as well. http://www.saharareporters.com/news-page/niger-delta-environmental-activists-accuse-exxonmobil-worse-oil-pollution-nigeria-bp-s-gul

Tchaikovsky

ScissorPaperRoc wrote: »

In one sense though, one aspect of what China are doing - building infrastructure rather than using cash to pay for African resources - is a good thing.

At least by building infrastructure they know where the money is going, and it can more or less be guaranteed that the country in question will be benefiting from the deal rather than the pockets of corrupt government officials. Also it reduces the chance that disputes will arise, and threats of strikes etc which are often likely when different government departments and trade unions etc know that there has been an influx of cash.

The problem is that the Africans are often getting a poor deal, not getting as much as they should for their resources. The solution is that companies from more countries start offering infrastructure as payment, and by auctioning resources off the Africans will get better deals.

Chinese traditional medicine is one of the main causes of the destruction of Africa's wildlife population, on top of Asia's wildlife population.

Fratton Fred

jugger0 wrote: »

Is there any black country in the world that isnt a ****hole?

I can confirm that yes, indeed, West Bromwich is a **** hole, but what does that have to do with the thread?

profitius

LionelNashe wrote: »

Well you are prone to hyperbole, exaggeration, generalisation and you have a ridiculous ethno-centric viewpoint. That's like being a racist.

So in other words if you mention anything about race you're a racist! :rolleyes: