UFC 128-Shogun V Jones

Mellor

Snappy the Moose wrote: »

Shogun brought nothing to the fight, it seemed as if he lacked belief in himself. I'm not one for bashing fighters but when a UFC champion taps to strikes it really leaves a lot to be desired.

Sorry, but there are a million factors here. Nobody can comment on the tap really. it's not as if it wasn't brutal and seconds away from a stoppage. What if he was after picking up an injury and in danger of more serious damage for example

Jon Jones was phenomenal last night, but I have a sense of regret that we didn't see him fight the best conditioned Shogun. JJ may still have won but Shogun offered very little, he had a non-existent gameplan, poor cardio (granted the shots would have had an effect), lacked belief and ultimately got what he deserved.

A lot of this is speculation. He was badly rockign within a minute.
Pretty much every aspect of that fight was out of his control. JJ took him down with ease early and from here it was over for Shogun. I expected JJ to do exactly what he did, I never expected him to do it so well. Putting down Shogun is disrespectful to both fighters imo

Ush1

Joe Rogan was saying Shogun should drop weight as he most likely can't beat JJ. Well I think that's a problem all other LHWs will face as Jones is a monster!

The pass the parcel of the LHW title continues. I wouldn't tempt faith by calling it the start of the Jon Jones era but that kid is a different planet to the others. Not only did he get that belt but he got it soooo easily. Like Rogan said, every time you see him fight it's a man against a boy.

Sad to see Shogun tap from strikes but I'm not sure what his gameplan really was. JJ had him every where.

As for Rashad, he's shorter than Shogun i think despite formerly being a heavyweight. Rashad has decent speed but I think unless JJ goes easy on him as they were team mates, I can only see Jones eating people for breakfast.

The Bored One

From what I saw I'd say Shogun didn't gas so much as get thoroughly rocked and then any attempt to build momentum again just got stopped quickly. Very well played on Jones part. He came out very aggressive at the start of the fight, prevented Shogun getting comfortable, then quickly took him down and did some serious damage.
After that he engaged and disengaged very nicely, made good use of his long Dhalsim-like legs with those side kicks to Shoguns knees. (I am aware that a fight is a fight but targeting a known injury never sits comfortably with me)
Very good way to stop Shogun creating an offensive though as he didn't appear to want to risk further damage/surgery issues.

Two points in particular I'd like to discuss.

First off those side kicks. Anyone think they are a viable weapon in MMA in general, or were only really suitable in the circumstances? (Ridiculous reach vs previous damaged knees)

Secondly, Shoguns attempts at leg locks. As we saw Jones seemed to recover at these quite comfortably, but would this be a good course of attack for future opponents against the Jones?

That_Guy

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed, disappointed at the lack of submissions on show though. Think you mean Jim Miller although Dan did well on short notice against a top middleweight.

Oops. Yep, I meant Jim. Seems like a really genuine chap and has impressed me in his last three or four outings.

Dan did ok. Not amazing by any stretch. I think he needs a bit more work to make him a top contender.

MrStuffins

I think a lot of people are confusing being in bad shape due to poor cardio etc and being in bad shape due to taking a horrific beating.

Shogun was smashed horribly, I seriously doubt the reason he looked wobbly on his feet was due to him not doing enough cardio work. Jones was smashing him to pieces!

I was massively impressed by Jones. And at the moment I can't thing of anyone who should beat him at LHW. (A 100% and fully confident) Machida would be an unteresting match up though.

whadabouchasir

The Bored One wrote: »

First off those side kicks. Anyone think they are a viable weapon in MMA in general, or were only really suitable in the circumstances? (Ridiculous reach vs previous damaged knees)

I was wondering why he kept kicking him in the knee/thigh instead of the ribs. Side kicks are a very commonly used technique in Taekwondo and kickboxing fights. they have to be targeted properly,i.e at the ribs,however if they are done properly they will break ribs or at the very least knock the guy back a good bit.I think that they would suit a counter fighter as he could land a side kick after a jab or if the ribs were exposed.

Forest Master

Ush1 wrote: »

I wouldn't tempt faith

What does that mean?

MrStuffins

whadabouchasir wrote: »

I was wondering why he kept kicking him in the knee/thigh instead of the ribs. Side kicks are a very commonly used technique in Taekwondo and kickboxing fights. they have to be targeted properly,i.e at the ribs,however if they are done properly they will break ribs or at the very least knock the guy back a good bit.I think that they would suit a counter fighter as he could land a side kick after a jab or if the ribs were exposed.

Also, he used a lot of sidekicks to Shoguns knees, a very very smart tactic considering all of the injury problems Shogun has had with his knees.

MrStuffins

Forest Master wrote: »

What does that mean?

I'm pretty sure he meant "tempt fate".

Forest Master

MrStuffins wrote: »

I'm pretty sure he meant "tempt fate".

It's odd that people use phrases they don't even understand.

The Bored One

MrStuffins wrote: »

Also, he used a lot of sidekicks to Shoguns knees, a very very smart tactic considering all of the injury problems Shogun has had with his knees.

Yep. He didn't even have to make them forceful strikes, just strong enough to give Shogun pause and make him hesitant about advancing properly.

DrPhilG

The Bored One wrote: »

(I am aware that a fight is a fight but targeting a known injury never sits comfortably with me)

I know what you're saying but where do you draw the line? Is it a cheap tactic to try and land a big shot if your opponent has a history of having a weak chin? Is it a cheap tactic to try and throw up triangles if you're fighting Chael Sonnen?

We see it all the time if a fighter has a bad cut on his left eye, the other guy will load up on the right all of the next round.

Good gameplan by Jackson and Jones, I have no issue with it.

The Bored One

whadabouchasir wrote: »

I was wondering why he kept kicking him in the knee/thigh instead of the ribs. Side kicks are a very commonly used technique in Taekwondo and kickboxing fights. they have to be targeted properly,i.e at the ribs,however if they are done properly they will break ribs or at the very least knock the guy back a good bit.I think that they would suit a counter fighter as he could land a side kick after a jab or if the ribs were exposed.

I've seen some good use of side kicks by fighters like Cung Le before, so I think side kicks in general are just another tool to be used. I'm wondering specifically about the side kicks to the knee, if people think they'd be of use for other fighters?

The Bored One

DrPhilG wrote: »

I know what you're saying but where do you draw the line? Is it a cheap tactic to try and land a big shot if your opponent has a history of having a weak chin? Is it a cheap tactic to try and throw up triangles if you're fighting Chael Sonnen?

We see it all the time if a fighter has a bad cut on his left eye, the other guy will load up on the right all of the next round.

Good gameplan by Jackson and Jones, I have no issue with it.

Oh I know, it just makes good tactical sense to target the weak points the way he did. I can appreciate the logic and effectiveness of it without having to like it much

Ush1

Forest Master wrote: »

It's odd that people use phrases they don't even understand.

It's not odd when they do understand it though. Despite poor grammar.

Forest Master

Ush1 wrote: »

It's not odd when they do understand it though. Despite poor grammar.

Eh, the error wasn't grammatical.

Ush1

Forest Master wrote: »

Eh, the error wasn't grammatical.

Not that I'm bothered getting into this, but in what way was it not grammatical?

But yeah, apart from use of an idiom my post was fine with you?

Forest Master

Ush1 wrote: »

Not that I'm bothered getting into this...

Obviously...

Christ on a bike. Bring it to the Grammar Nazi forum lads.

On the post saying about targetting weaknesses....Welcome to Martial Arts.

Snappy the Moose

Mellor wrote: »

Sorry, but there are a million factors here. Nobody can comment on the tap really. it's not as if it wasn't brutal and seconds away from a stoppage. What if he was after picking up an injury and in danger of more serious damage for example

A lot of this is speculation. He was badly rockign within a minute.
Pretty much every aspect of that fight was out of his control. JJ took him down with ease early and from here it was over for Shogun. I expected JJ to do exactly what he did, I never expected him to do it so well. Putting down Shogun is disrespectful to both fighters imo

That is fair enough but the reality is there wasn't any injury, it would have surfaced by now. He took a knee to the head, hit the deck and tapped. The desire was gone at that stage and he had taken a considerable beating but to see a champion tap like that is disappointing whatever way you put it.

Your cardio issue is fair enough but to say "pretty much every aspect was out of his control" is wrong. You cannot excuse his gameplan, which centred around him standing a metre away from JJ trying to counter. Hindsight is 20/20 vision but I think most people didn't expect such a ludicrous tactic.

I'm not disrespecting anybody, I already said that JJ was phenomenal and deserved to win. However, I feel Shogun didn't do himself justice, as a result of some self inflicted actions and some not.

jayteecork

Plenty of people have been on the end of one sided humiliations like that and came back - Rashad against Lyoto, Page against Shogun, Forrest against Silva, Overeem against everyone.

Knee permitting I think Shogun will be back from this.

I think Shogun's next match should be the rematch against Page.

In the meanwhile I hope Machida can easily put away Randy because I can see him being next for a shot against Bones (Let's be fair, Evans doesn't have a snowballs)

I think if Lyoto is 100% he can avoid Bones' takedowns, while countering to earn a decision.

Niall0

I think Rashad actually has a fairly good chance, his style is very effective and might be enough to take the belt again. Also the fact hes trained with him probably takes away alot of the hype as hes seen it all before. Thle long layoff will probably mess him up a bit though and thats his own fault.

Ush1

jayteecork wrote: »

Plenty of people have been on the end of one sided humiliations like that and came back - Rashad against Lyoto, Page against Shogun, Forrest against Silva, Overeem against everyone.

Knee permitting I think Shogun will be back from this.

I think Shogun's next match should be the rematch against Page.

In the meanwhile I hope Machida can easily put away Randy because I can see him being next for a shot against Bones (Let's be fair, Evans doesn't have a snowballs)

I think if Lyoto is 100% he can avoid Bones' takedowns, while countering to earn a decision.

Rampage is due a shot before Machida no?

GTR63

Anyone know how much of a reach advantage Jones will have vs Evans.

MrStuffins

GTR63 wrote: »

Anyone know how much of a reach advantage Jones will have vs Evans.

10 inches!!!!!!!!!!

scudzilla

GTR63 wrote: »

Anyone know how much of a reach advantage Jones will have vs Evans.

Without checking up i'd say about maybe 2" less than he had over shogun

Oh_Noes

Niall0 wrote: »

I think Rashad actually has a fairly good chance, his style is very effective and might be enough to take the belt again. Also the fact hes trained with him probably takes away alot of the hype as hes seen it all before. Thle long layoff will probably mess him up a bit though and thats his own fault.

Imagine the advantage Jones would have if he had trained with Evans!

Oh wait...

Niall0

Does anyone in the division have a reach anywhere near jones? 84.5inches is huge, i just looked up some of the top contenders and the closest i could find was forest at 77 inches.

MrStuffins

Niall0 wrote: »

Does anyone in the division have a reach anywhere near jones? 84.5inches is huge, i just looked up some of the top contenders and the closest i could find was forest at 77 inches.

It's the biggest reach in UFC history!

Niall0

Phil Davis is probably the biggest prospect now at 205, he would probably have a decent chance against jones once he gets a little more experience.

jayteecork

Ush1 wrote: »

Rampage is due a shot before Machida no?

Maybe, but everyone knows Machida was the better man when him and Page fought.

Dana saying "i thought Rampage won the fight" reeks of marketing.
In the states Page is hugely popular, especially since he was in a Hollywood blockbuster.

Page/Bones wouldn't even be a contest.
but whatever, let Page fight the winner of Bones/Rashad.

Fecked if he deserves it. Can't understand why the guy is so popular in the first place, he's so slow, boring. And as seen in TUF, he's not a very nice guy. IMO he's a terrible fighter. Offers nothing but an iron chin.

MrStuffins

I'm with you on the Rampage thing. He's far from exciting, he's one dimensional and he came across as a bit of a d1ck on TUF!

Mellor

Snappy the Moose wrote: »

Your cardio issue is fair enough but to say "pretty much every aspect was out of his control" is wrong. You cannot excuse his gameplan, which centred around him standing a metre away from JJ trying to counter. Hindsight is 20/20 vision but I think most people didn't expect such a ludicrous tactic.

I'm not disrespecting anybody, I already said that JJ was phenomenal and deserved to win. However, I feel Shogun didn't do himself justice, as a result of some self inflicted actions and some not.

He ate a knee in the first few seconds, (I didn't actually see how well it landed though). The early punchs clearly had an effect on him, he was groggy. I don't believe the fight we seen from shogun was a "gameplan". He was rocked, dazed, what ever you want to call it. I sure he had a plan, but after the first clash, he was focusing on getting his head back on.

How many times have we seen a fighter get rocked, or put in a bad spot in the first round and they basically can't get out of of that rut or the whole round, constantly on the back foot. Only to come out in rd 2 and do it right.
Faber this weekend, Silva v Henderson etc.
Shogun just didn't recover.

scudzilla wrote: »

Without checking up i'd say about maybe 2" less than he had over shogun

1.5" more than what he had over Shogun

Niall0 wrote: »

Does anyone in the division have a reach anywhere near jones? 84.5inches is huge, i just looked up some of the top contenders and the closest i could find was forest at 77 inches.

Everyone knows jones is the longest, some others are close, but they are all at HW and far bigger. I'd like to know the second longest at LHW.

Stefan Struve 83"
Antonio Silva 82"
Lesnar 81"
Carwin 80"
Sylvia 80"

Even look at some HW boxers with long reaches.
Primo Carnera 85.5" (longest reach of any HW champ ever)
Nikolay Valuev 85" (wiki says its 91", it's not)
Sonny Liston 84" (@ 6' 1/2")
Lennox Lewis 84"

I'm sure there have been freaks with longer reaches, but they were never champs or established in anyway

Edit: Couldn't find a figure for Hong man Choi

Ush1

jayteecork wrote: »

Maybe, but everyone knows Machida was the better man when him and Page fought.

Dana saying "i thought Rampage won the fight" reeks of marketing.
In the states Page is hugely popular, especially since he was in a Hollywood blockbuster.

Page/Bones wouldn't even be a contest.
but whatever, let Page fight the winner of Bones/Rashad.

Fecked if he deserves it. Can't understand why the guy is so popular in the first place, he's so slow, boring. And as seen in TUF, he's not a very nice guy. IMO he's a terrible fighter. Offers nothing but an iron chin.

Well I thought his fight with Lyoto was very close anyway and in fairness to Rampage he said straight after that the best thing to do would be a rematch.

I like Machida but I worry about him after his last two fights, he's got more hits to the head than in most of his previous UFC fights put together. Just looks a tad slower.

DrPhilG

Mellor wrote: »

He ate a knee in the first few seconds, (I didn't actually see how well it landed though).

It landed pretty well!

ollieo

Snappy the Moose wrote: »

That is fair enough but the reality is there wasn't any injury, it would have surfaced by now. He took a knee to the head, hit the deck and tapped. The desire was gone at that stage and he had taken a considerable beating but to see a champion tap like that is disappointing whatever way you put it.

Shogun isn't the first champion to tap to strikes (GSP tapped to strikes against Matt Serra) and he won't be the last.

A few big name fighters have also tapped to strikes in high profile fights. Stop making such a big deal about it. Shogun got beaten up over 2 and a half rounds and couldn't take anymore.

bjj-fighter

I cannot believe people are making a big deal about Shogun tapping, its ridiculous!

Snappy the Moose

ollieo wrote: »

A few big name fighters have also tapped to strikes in high profile fights. Stop making such a big deal about it. Shogun got beaten up over 2 and a half rounds and couldn't take anymore.

I'm not making a big deal I said it was disappointing.

When Shogun tapped he was relinquishing a title that many fighters would give the world for, it was disappointing that the title obviously didn't mean as much to him as I thought. I would have understood if he was seriously injured but he wasn't.

You can suger-coat it all you like but there is no doubt that tapping to strikes isn't the most admirable, add to the fact it was a champion and it is disappointing.

bjj-fighter

Snappy the Moose wrote: »

I'm not making a big deal I said it was disappointing.

When Shogun tapped he was relinquishing a title that many fighters would give the world for, it was disappointing that the title obviously didn't mean as much to him as I thought. I would have understood if he was seriously injured but he wasn't.

You can suger-coat it all you like but there is no doubt that tapping to strikes isn't the most admirable, add to the fact it was a champion and it is disappointing.

Has to be trolling.

God I hate threads about the UFC on this forum!

Snappy the Moose

bjj-fighter wrote: »

Has to be trolling.

God I hate threads about the UFC on this forum!

I'm disappointed that a champion tapped to strikes so I am considered a troll.

Remember it wasn't so long ago that Chuck was making fun of Tito to tapping to strikes.

Why don't you put forward a sensible argument as to why you don't see it as disappointing instead of posting off-topic garbage that doesn't contribute to the thread.

SanoVitae

Snappy the Moose wrote: »

You can suger-coat it all you like but there is no doubt that tapping to strikes isn't the most admirable, add to the fact it was a champion and it is disappointing.

Are you actually serious?

My respect for Shogun went UP as a result of that fight. So many fighters would have caved in towards the end of the first round. Shogun was seriously hurt in the 1st round, getting outclassed in every area by Jones yet he still kept coming forward. He kept on doing so until Jones literally made it impossible for him to continue.

Feel free to admire who you want, but Shogun has the heart of a lion.

Snappy the Moose

SanoVitae wrote: »

Feel free to admire who you want, but Shogun has the heart of a lion.

So much heart that he relinquished his belt on his terms, granted he would have probably been finished but the belt obviously didn't mean everything to him as suggested after he beat Machida.

I will leave it there because some people are getting a little tense but I'm going to say it like it is. Tapping to strikes is embarrassing imo unless you have an injury that disables you from carrying on. Rich Franklin fought with a broken arm for example, you may say Shogun has heart but he doesn't have it anywhere near other fighters in the UFC.

Matt Hamill got a worse beating and he didn't tap iirc. That is what I would classify as the "heart of a lion".

jayteecork

I haven't seen anyone tapping outside a submission since Gary Goodridge (complete with red gi) in UFC 10.

scudzilla

jayteecork wrote: »

I haven't seen anyone tapping outside a submission since Gary Goodridge (complete with red gi) in UFC 10.

Guess you've not watched Tito Ortiz then ;)

He tapped to strikes against Frank Shamrock at UFC 22

Professey Chin

jayteecork wrote: »

I haven't seen anyone tapping outside a submission since Gary Goodridge (complete with red gi) in UFC 10.

It happens a lot more then records show.
A lot of them occur after the ref has already stopped the fight so the fight is officially a TKO.
As for it being shameful, absolute bullsh!t. The 1st thing every fighter is taught is tapping is nothing to be ashamed about. If you feel you cant defend yourself from anymore damage then you should tap rather then risk serious injury.
Shogun could barely stand after the 1st round and kept going forward, kept fighting and even before the end managed to get back to his feet. He couldnt go any longer or defend himself. The belt would have meant a lot to him but his health and fighting another day is more important.

SanoVitae

Just out of interest, has any professional MMA fighter criticised Shogun for tapping?

I've yet to hear anyone other than a keyboard warrior do so.

Ush1

scudzilla wrote: »

Guess you've not watched Tito Ortiz then ;)

He tapped to strikes against Frank Shamrock at UFC 22

Forrest tapped due to strikes from Rashad. It looked like it was his body bouncing from the blows but I think he said after he was actually trying to tap.

He more or less tapped due to strikes against Anderson Silva also.

SDTimeout

GSP tapped to Serra i think someone mentioned here earlier .

At the end of the day, a fighter feels the pain and knows his limits more than any ref. No shame in tapping to strikes at all, IMO.

scudzilla

Ush1 wrote: »

Forrest tapped due to strikes from Rashad. It looked like it was his body bouncing from the blows but I think he said after he was actually trying to tap.

He more or less tapped due to strikes against Anderson Silva also.

yeah, but that's Forrest :rolleyes:

Jesus this is getting a bit out of hand lads. I think if Shogun escaped further injury and will be able to fight better another day then he was right to tap. There's very few people who would be left standing after that first round.