A little help on consumer rights

This whole thread should just be renamed facepalm.

I agree with 28064212. It really is no wonder people hate working in retail.

I demand a refund I AM entitled. Um, no, you're not. Goway.


(not directed at OP, but the majority of the replying posters )

FreudianSlippers

28064212 wrote: »

The bolded part is wrong. If no returns policy formed part of the sale, the store can offer whatever they want. They can offer magic beans if they want to

Actually I'll agree with you there. If no returns policy formed part of the sale, the original contract has concluded.
Any return in this regard is actually the formation of a new contract which they may offer any consideration they see fit.


It still stands though that if there is a return policy, barring any terms that would specify otherwise, they must give you the amount you paid if you present a valid sales receipt.

28064212

OisinT wrote: »

Actually I'll agree with you there. If no returns policy formed part of the sale, the original contract has concluded.
Any return in this regard is actually the formation of a new contract which they may offer any consideration they see fit.

...so we're entirely in agreement? Unless the OP has a receipt and there's a store policy on returns that they've met, they should take the €20 and run?

FreudianSlippers

28064212 wrote: »

...so we're entirely in agreement? Unless the OP has a receipt and there's a store policy on returns that they've met, they should take the €20 and run?

Yep.

Corruptedmorals

OisinT wrote: »

What shops specifically are we talking about here that refuse to do returns if you change your mind?

Not to name and shame - but out of curiosity, we can easily find out their return policies.

Office is one. Which is doubly strange because Schuh accept returns up to a year afterwards. I'd imagine the amount of boutiques and one-off shops that do goodwill refunds is extremely small.

If you have a receipt and the shop operates a goodwill refund policy, then you should get the FULL amount back. That's the way it works. I remember some guy came in about 3 months after he bought a €28 hoody wanting to do an exchange without a receipt, and it had been reduced to €3. Almost all shops that operate goodwill refunds will not do them without a receipt and will offer exchanges if you have no receipt. You might not think it but you WILL actually get people who rob stuff and come back later trying to get a refund. Numerous occasions. So the moral of the story is- you need a receipt first to prove you bought it and second to prove what price you paid.

Yeah the amount of people who kick up a fuss if they're beyond the 28 days or don't have a receipt etc.- where I worked took back stuff for 28 days after, even with tags stapled back on. The awful thing about goodwill policies is that people think that a refund is their absolute right.

borderlinemeath

No retailer is under any legal obligation to accept unwanted gifts/change of mind returns without a valid sales receipt. In fact even with a receipt it is at the discretion of the retailer and the policy that they offer in addition to your statutory rights.
As above poster said there are numerous scams with "customers" trying to return things they have literally picked up and brought up to the counter.

Most chains and department stores have policies in place that all tickets and packaging must also be in place, and also receipts/proof of purchase have to be produced even for faulty returns, particularly in the case of a branded item that can be sold in multiple retail outlets (take Clarks shoes for example, sold in Arnotts, Debenhams, Shaws, Clarks outlets and many other independent shoe retailers nationwide and in the UK.) Why would Arnotts be obliged to take back a pair of shoes that may have been purchased in so many other retailers?

Take the €20 and run OP. And read up on consumer rights.

davo10

OP read this:


http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Hot_Topics/FAQs/Refunds-and-credit-notes/


Mods, whenever you see the words, "return", "refund" or "what are my rights/entitlements", could you refer the OP to the NCA website and the above link, it will reduce the number of silly posts which give wrong info.

borderlinemeath

davo10 wrote: »

OP read this:


http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Hot_Topics/FAQs/Refunds-and-credit-notes/


Mods, whenever you see the words, "return", "refund" or "what are my rights/entitlements", could you refer the OP to the NCA website and the above link, it will reduce the number of silly posts which give wrong info.

In fairness the majority of silly posts on this one are because I think it started off in after hours..

davo10

borderlinemeath wrote: »

In fairness the majority of silly posts on this one are because I think it started off in after hours..

I understand that Borderline, but there seems to be an huge amount of posters on the consumer issues forum who believe they are "entitled" to redress even though there is absolutely nothing wrong with the items purchased.

borderlinemeath

davo10 wrote: »

I understand that Borderline, but there seems to be an huge amount of posters on the consumer issues forum who believe they are "entitled" to redress even though there is absolutely nothing wrong with the items purchased.

True, and that's why they post here.
The NCA website gives a broad generalisation on consumer rights and returns, but it can be too confusing/too ambiguous for some people so they look for opinions.
I agree there are a lot of people that haven't got a clue and believe they have "entitlements" when they are in fact entitled to diddly squat. But better they find out here than go and lose the rag with retail staff.

davo10

borderlinemeath wrote: »

True, and that's why they post here.
The NCA website gives a broad generalisation on consumer rights and returns, but it can be too confusing/too ambiguous for some people so they look for opinions.
I agree there are a lot of people that haven't got a clue and believe they have "entitlements" when they are in fact entitled to diddly squat. But better they find out here than go and lose the rag with retail staff.

I agree totally, but the page that link above goes to in NCA site is pretty easy to understand and if people are encouraged to read it first then it will reduce the number of half truths/misinformation posted about consumer "rights".

wmpdd3

Believe it or not I have had people print out the pages from the NCA and read tem to me. When I point out it says FAULTY, they say yes, sure it doesn't fit me isn't that faulty!

dudara

davo10 wrote: »

I agree totally, but the page that link above goes to in NCA site is pretty easy to understand and if people are encouraged to read it first then it will reduce the number of half truths/misinformation posted about consumer "rights".

We do encourage them to read it, there is a link to it in a sticky at the top of this forum.

TBH - you can't just make a sweeping generalisation and point everyone to the NCA website. Then there would be no need for this forum. People ask questions if they don't understand something, that's human nature. Granted those questions may seem silly, or even stupid to some posters, but they do have the right to ask them. The regular group of posters here help them out as best they can.

dudara

Duckjob

seamus wrote: »

Not legally entitled, initially. But if a returns policy is a condition of sale (as it usually is), then the company cannot arbitrarily decide to not honour that returns policy as it forms part of the contract with the buyer.
In that case, they would be required to refund the full cost of the item as paid because they are allowing a method of rescinding the contract.

Where a receipt cannot be shown to prove when the item was purchased and how much was paid for it, then the shop would only be required to refund the current sale price of the item, not the price paid.

Firstly, the onus is on the consumer to prove that the item was purchased by the consumer in the shop. This is most commonly proved by means of a shop sales receipt, but it does not have to be.

If the customer cannot provide proof that the item was bought in the shop, then the shop has no obligation to him/her of any kind.

After that, for a non-faulty item you're getting into the returns policy of the shop and how it impacts the contract of sale formed with the consumer.

There is nothing written into law that compels a shop to refund a non-faulty item that the consumer has simply changed their mind about after purchasing.

seamus

Duckjob wrote: »

If the customer cannot provide proof that the item was bought in the shop, then the shop has no obligation to him/her of any kind.

Not true. A contract still exists regardless of whether or not a receipt was issued. There's no legal obligation on the seller to issue a receipt (afair), therefore a receipt cannot be a mandatory requirement to establish proof that a contract exists.

However, if you rock up to a shop with no receipt or other means of proving that you purchased the item (such as a credit card bill), that doesn't mean the shop is obligated to sort you out on the spot. The shop can obviously and reasonably claim that the item may not have been purchased there. The consumer would be entitled to take the shop to court, where a judge would decide - on the balance of probabilities - if the item had been bought in the shop and therefore if the shop has an obligation to the buyer.

Most shops are actually aware of this in their policies. If I walk into my local Penneys with an item that can only be purchased in Penneys, then logically I must have purchased that item in Penneys and so they will generally honour a refund policy. Both in the interests of customer service and because it's easier than having the odd militant person go legal on them.

Duckjob

seamus wrote: »

Not true. A contract still exists regardless of whether or not a receipt was issued. There's no legal obligation on the seller to issue a receipt (afair), therefore a receipt cannot be a mandatory requirement to establish proof that a contract exists.

However, if you rock up to a shop with no receipt or other means of proving that you purchased the item (such as a credit card bill), that doesn't mean the shop is obligated to sort you out on the spot. The shop can obviously and reasonably claim that the item may not have been purchased there. The consumer would be entitled to take the shop to court, where a judge would decide - on the balance of probabilities - if the item had been bought in the shop and therefore if the shop has an obligation to the buyer.

Firstly, consumers are always advised to ask for a receipt if they dont get one.

However, as I said in my last post, proof of purchase doesnt have to be a store receipt. It could be a credit card statement with a charge from the store/business name on it for the amount of the item, or CCTV obtained from the store showing the consumer buying the item etc.

I take your point that it is perhaps not based on absolute proof, but in practice the end result is going to be the same: If a consumer goes legal and has no receipt, the shops first defense is likely to be - you can't prove you bought that from us, if the consumer doesn't have any evidence to convince the court otherwise, they don't have a case.

Most shops are actually aware of this in their policies. If I walk into my local Penneys with an item that can only be purchased in Penneys, then logically I must have purchased that item in Penneys and so they will generally honour a refund policy.

Would that argument (this can only be bought in X store) stand up in court though? Maybe 20 yrs ago, but given you can now order anything from anywhere in the world at a couple of clicks, couldn't a store make that argument ?

Lcronin2011

Ninjedi wrote: »

the sales assistant only gave her €20 back instead of €40 because the jumper is on sale for that price now!

Am I away the wrong direction or is that a serious breach of her consumer rights?

No that is totally violating your consumer rights. Saying the jumper is horrible isn't a good enough reason though.She should just say the size is too big or something like that.That way she has a valid reason. It doesn't matter if there is a sale on, if she bought it at full price and has a receipt to prove this, she should get the 40 euro back. I work in a shop and have loads of people returning items bought for christmas during the sale. Refund them the price it was bought at. If she didnt have a receipt she still shouldn't have gotten 20 euro. She should have got store credit of 40 euro. Go on to the consumer rights website, you can always email them with questions. hope this helps

28064212

Lcronin2011 wrote: »

No that is totally violating your consumer rights. Saying the jumper is horrible isn't a good enough reason though.She should just say the size is too big or something like that.That way she has a valid reason. It doesn't matter if there is a sale on, if she bought it at full price and has a receipt to prove this, she should get the 40 euro back. I work in a shop and have loads of people returning items bought for christmas during the sale. Refund them the price it was bought at. If she didnt have a receipt she still shouldn't have gotten 20 euro. She should have got store credit of 40 euro. Go on to the consumer rights website, you can always email them with questions. hope this helps

No it's not violating their rights. Have a read of the 46 posts between the first one and yours and learn why

seamus

Duckjob wrote: »

Would that argument (this can only be bought in X store) stand up in court though? Maybe 20 yrs ago, but given you can now order anything from anywhere in the world at a couple of clicks, couldn't a store make that argument ?

It really depends on the item in question. Courts usually tend to take things at face value and err on the side of whoever's out of pocket.

For example, if I live in Tallaght and I'm looking for a replacement for a faulty dishwasher from D.I.D. in Tallaght but I can't provide any kind of proof-of-purchase, the judge can look at the case on its merits - i.e. D.I.D. stock that model dishwasher, chances are I did buy from that D.I.D. (because it's local), and even if I didn't D.I.D. will be adequately refunded by the manufacturer for the replacement, so no harm no foul.

I know I'm arguing more of an academic point than anything; Chances are D.I.D. can look at the dishwasher's S/N and tell whether or not they sold it. In this modern time it's much less likely for such a case to end up in court because proof can be much more readily established even without a receipt.
I just don't like the "no receipt, tough ****" line, because although it makes your case far more difficult, a lack of a receipt doesn't remove your statutory rights.

davo10

dudara wrote: »

We do encourage them to read it, there is a link to it in a sticky at the top of this forum.

TBH - you can't just make a sweeping generalisation and point everyone to the NCA website. Then there would be no need for this forum. People ask questions if they don't understand something, that's human nature. Granted those questions may seem silly, or even stupid to some posters, but they do have the right to ask them. The regular group of posters here help them out as best they can.

dudara

dudara, i have no issue with OP's posting questions but when Lcronin2011 posts that OP'S consumer rights have been violated when they clearly haven't then things are getting a bit silly.

mrsbyrne

Lcronin2011 wrote: »

No that is totally violating your consumer rights. Saying the jumper is horrible isn't a good enough reason though.She should just say the size is too big or something like that.That way she has a valid reason. It doesn't matter if there is a sale on, if she bought it at full price and has a receipt to prove this, she should get the 40 euro back. I work in a shop and have loads of people returning items bought for christmas during the sale. Refund them the price it was bought at. If she didnt have a receipt she still shouldn't have gotten 20 euro. She should have got store credit of 40 euro. Go on to the consumer rights website, you can always email them with questions. hope this helps

im horrified that you are employed in retail and you appear to have no clue regarding consumer rights. maybe the retail outlet you work in has a returns policy based on you, the retail assistant being judge jury and executioner as to whether or not a customer is entitled to a refund, but here on planet reality if the purchase complies with the sale of goods and services act then no refund is due, unless the shop has a clearly defined returns policy which then comes into play.

borderlinemeath

Lcronin2011 wrote: »

No that is totally violating your consumer rights. Saying the jumper is horrible isn't a good enough reason though.She should just say the size is too big or something like that.That way she has a valid reason. It doesn't matter if there is a sale on, if she bought it at full price and has a receipt to prove this, she should get the 40 euro back. I work in a shop and have loads of people returning items bought for christmas during the sale. Refund them the price it was bought at. If she didnt have a receipt she still shouldn't have gotten 20 euro. She should have got store credit of 40 euro. Go on to the consumer rights website, you can always email them with questions. hope this helps

I don't know where to start with the amount of misinformation in your post.
I also don't understand how you have a job in retail given your lack of knowledge in the area of consumer rights and returns policies.

The store has not violated her consumer rights. Your consumer rights only kick in with a faulty item/not as described item. Most department stores/high street chains have policies that work in addition to your rights. To comply with these additional policies the consumer should at all times retain receipts for proof of purchase.

A wrong size is also not a valid reason for return. The only valid reasons for return are that the goods are faulty or not as described.

No receipt = no rights in addition to consumer rights. No proof of purchase exists so whatever price the item is currently priced at is ALL the consumer is entitled to.

Davo10 - I take your point wholeheartedly!!

dudara

davo10 wrote: »

dudara, i have no issue with OP's posting questions but when Lcronin2011 posts that OP'S consumer rights have been violated when they clearly haven't then things are getting a bit silly.

And that's why we have a discussion forum. Not all posters will post a "correct" answer. Other posters have the right to reply and correct them. We give advice here, not absolute, binding answers.

dudara

Let me break this down. The first question you need to ask is...

Was the item faulty, or in someway wrong, as defined under Consumer Law

If yes, then under Consumer Law you are entitled to a repair, replacement or refund. It is up to the retailer to offer an option, but it has to be reasonable. For instance, you cannot insist on a refund if the retailer is offering a replacement and a replacement is an entirely reasonable offer.

If no, then you are at the mercy of the individual retailer's returns policy. And a lot will depend on whether or not you have a receipt. The store is perfectly entitled to refund only the sale price, if they so choose. Legally, they do not have to refund you at all, as there is nothing wrong with the item. Their policy should be clearly outlined somewhere in the store or on the receipt.

Corruptedmorals

seamus wrote: »

Most shops are actually aware of this in their policies. If I walk into my local Penneys with an item that can only be purchased in Penneys, then logically I must have purchased that item in Penneys and so they will generally honour a refund policy. Both in the interests of customer service and because it's easier than having the odd militant person go legal on them.

Not neccessarily, you could have robbed it. Or you could have bought the item at a sale price but demanding the refund of the full price. Also, credit card bills- really I wouldnt blame a shop for not taking them as proof especially if it's listed at something like €10, easier to prove if it's €62.99. There's just no details. Penneys and Dunnes will NOT do refunds without receipts, both offer exchanges, either direct or up to the (current) value. Gift cards (credit notes) are not given unless you don't have your credit/debit card on you.

Lcronin2011

dudara wrote: »

And that's why we have a discussion forum. Not all posters will post a "correct" answer. Other posters have the right to reply and correct them. We give advice here, not absolute, binding answers.

Thank you. if u don't think my answer is correct then get over it. unless u have some advice to offer the OP, which it looks like ye don't based on the fact all your posts are telling people they are wrong instead of just getting over it and giving your own advice. Then dont bother even posting in the first place.

28064212

Lcronin2011 wrote: »

Thank you. if u don't think my answer is correct then get over it. unless u have some advice to offer the OP, which it looks like ye don't based on the fact all your posts are telling people they are wrong instead of just getting over it and giving your own advice. Then dont bother even posting in the first place.

We did have advice for the OP. It was "don't listen to this guy, he doesn't know what he's talking about"

borderlinemeath

Lcronin2011 wrote: »

Thank you. if u don't think my answer is correct then get over it. unless u have some advice to offer the OP, which it looks like ye don't based on the fact all your posts are telling people they are wrong instead of just getting over it and giving your own advice. Then dont bother even posting in the first place.

This is a forum for consumers to get advice, usually looking for specifics on their own circumstances.

Not only did you give wholly incorrect advice based on the OPs circumstances but now you are telling other posters to get over it??:eek:

And in your other post you directed the OP to the National Consumer Website. It would be advisable if you read the section on returns and exchanges before posting incorrect consumer rights.

Duckjob

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

Penneys and Dunnes will NOT do refunds without receipts, both offer exchanges, either direct or up to the (current) value. Gift cards (credit notes) are not given unless you don't have your credit/debit card on you.

It's not the right of Penneys, Dunnes or any other retailer to dictate that they won't refund without receipt. The law doesn't require a sales receipt, it requires evidence of purchase.

If a dispute goes legal, then the court, not the retailer will decide if that evidence sufficiently demonstrates that the item was bought from the store.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Lcronin2011 wrote: »

Thank you. if u don't think my answer is correct then get over it. unless u have some advice to offer the OP, .

Sorry but if you give blatantly incorrect advice then you have to be corrected rergardless of whether advice has been offered by others or not. Your advice was off the wall and had to be countered. Get over it.