Is it just o2 that seem to be losing lots of customers?

Walkman

Might also have good 3 3G coverage

woodzie

I was just reading a topic on the O2 forum and the mods trying to justify why the data allowance has been cut on their O2 advance plans from 2gb to 500mb and are charging €5 more for the privilege. It's hilarious, they cant really justify it and I'm sure they know this themselves but they have to toe the O2 line. I get that they cut the data but how can they expect to charge €5 more for it! Here's the link:

http://community.o2online.ie/t5/Pricing-Price-Plans/500mb-data-limit-on-o2-Advance/m-p/201900#M8631

racer1

Woodzie very good. All they really did was copy and paste the vodafone plans. o2 have no new ideas. They are like the government. u get less for more:-(

ToxicPaddy

woodzie wrote: »

I was just reading a topic on the O2 forum and the mods trying to justify why the data allowance has been cut on their O2 advance plans from 2gb to 500mb and are charging €5 more for the privilege. It's hilarious, they cant really justify it and I'm sure they know this themselves but they have to toe the O2 line. I get that they cut the data but how can they expect to charge €5 more for it! Here's the link:

http://community.o2online.ie/t5/Pricing-Price-Plans/500mb-data-limit-on-o2-Advance/m-p/201900#M8631

Yeah the so called "experts" on the O2 forum don't have a clue, I was on there a few months ago questioning their upgrade options and why existing customers have to pay 50% more than new customers when upgrading for the same phone, price plan and contract, doesn't make any sense..

I explained how much I spent with them and that I wasnt happy, the response..

"Spend more and you'll get the same"

I spend €2k a year with them, wtf!!!!??? :rolleyes::mad:

00112984

Another loyal O2 customer who had no choice but to port two of my numbers/accounts to Vodafone recently despite being happy with O2's service for the past 9 years. The decision was completely financial. I had a monthly spend on one phone of €90 - €120 and c. €25 on the second one. Both contracts expired, wasn't eligible for an upgrade on either account (had been 2 years on the main account and 3 years on the second one since I've had an upgrade) and I wanted an iPhone 4.

I rang Vodafone, got the prices I needed for an iPhone with package and a SIM-only bill plan and got on to sales in O2 who were very nice but couldn't do a thing for me. I was very upfront and said that I would be happy to stay with O2 if they could offer me a decent iPhone package compared to what I could get with Vodafone and broke down what I was being offered. They simply told me they understood why I was changing but they couldn't come anywhere close on what I was getting elsewhere. If it had been a small matter of 100 minutes a month or something similar I wouldn't have changed at all but O2 were charging me a lot more for the iPhone handset and the monthly bill on the package I needed was a good 60% more expensive.

I was very disappointed. I didn't expect O2 to bend over backwards to get me to stay, I just wanted them to make an effort to keep two accounts that I'd had for 9+ years and paid in full each month by direct debit. The contract on my third O2 account expires in a few months so I'll be porting that one over too.

drunkmonkey

woodzie wrote: »

http://community.o2online.ie/t5/Pricing-Price-Plans/500mb-data-limit-on-o2-Advance/m-p/201900#M8631

Surprised o2 admitted there network was gone to pot on that forum and wasn't capable of handling a reasonable data allowance.
It's not often you see a telco admit their network is crap in public.

Quote Daryll "Once the network stabilises again"

pawrick

Been pricing around a lot lately as I think I'm paying way too much on O2

My main problem seems to be that everyone I know seems to be on different networks - tesco, meteor, 3, Voda and O2 all being called equally! Still haven't figured out who has the best deal as there seems to be little difference out there when you also use the internet a lot on your phone.

also re Meteor losing customers - imo that has a lot to do with foreign people leaving and meteor being mostly used by younger people - nearly every foreign person I knew here had a meteor phone and a lot of them have left in the past year and same goes for people just out of school/college.

gbee

In this discussion one must not lose sight of the exclusive deal that O2 had with the iPhone.

Having had Esat, Vodafone and O2 I switched all my devices to Vodafone, based on the best practical service delivered, but dropped one for the iPhone on O2 after a gap of two years with them.

Two years on and unhappy that O2 had not developed their support for the iPhone and unhappy that a 'silver upgrade' effectively meant nothing to me to get the new iPhone 4, I switched to 3 for the FREE iP4 and a lower monthly tariff.

IMO, Vodafone have the best support and I still have two devices running on them, in two years time, if Vodafone get real and offer competition with the iPhone [though I think I'll be bored with this by then tbh] I'll probably be back to all Vodafone.

O2 would need to have an exclusive on the next big must have device or I'd probably not go back.

Funky G

Hi All,

Personally, O2 are in freefall and they are going to hit the ground very hard.

When i ported over to them, the service and the tariff were competitive, suited me and my budget and was very good, but since i changed over to their smart phone tariffs, the service is just crap! Loss and or unable to connect to the internet being the main culprit and since i changed tariff my bills have gone up!

I've spoken to a few reps who said that they will get back to me - they never did. i even PM Sheena before Christmas with my concerns i posted on another O2 thread in this forum. Still waiting for Sheena to PM me back.....

The other half ported over to O2 so we could avail of the free O2 to O2 calls and texts. i even rang them up and called to their shops about 3 times so we could get the picture messaging settings on her phone. she still has to log in to check on any photos people send her. never had that problem with her previous network - which was vodafone btw.

Honestly O2, cop on to yourselves. you are getting a battering on these forums. More worse than any other network that i can see. I'm currently in the process of trying to get out of my contract due to O2 inability to provide a reasonable service. Failing that - i'll be gone when the contract ends later on this year.

Oh yeah - avoid the Nokia N97 mini. Worst phone ever!

bd250110

pawrick wrote: »

My main problem seems to be that everyone I know seems to be on different networks - tesco, meteor, 3, Voda and O2 all being called equally! Still haven't figured out who has the best deal as there seems to be little difference out there when you also use the internet a lot on your phone.

Most tariffs offer cross-network minutes to all networks, including landline. I think most give unlimited calls and/or texts to their own network too. Have a look at your bills and see how many minutes you actually use, decide based on that, rather than who's on what. Someone you call a lot might move to a different network and ruin your calculations!
BTW is it even possible to tell who is where anymore? 3 bills don't say the specific network. My number is 086, my mother is 087 and my sister is 085, yet we are all on 3.

pajor

bd250110 wrote: »

!
BTW is it even possible to tell who is where anymore? 3 bills don't say the specific network. My number is 086, my mother is 087 and my sister is 085, yet we are all on 3.

Got fed up with this as well, so now get free texts to all networks. VERY handy

pawrick

I already get 300 mins a month to all networks, unlimited texts and 2gb internet allowance - still go over the calls and I send a lot of texts each month too. thinking it might be best to have two numbers to maximize calls and texts.

and I know what networks the people I call the most are with. thanks for the help though

BostonB

I switched to a 30 day, plan for 20 a month on O2. I was happy enough with that. I could add a data add on if I wanted. I works for me because most of the people I know are on O2. Not much different between that and PAYG plans atm. If I was using data, I would be disappointed with O2 though. I switched to a 30 day contract so i could leave whenever.

They seem to be very slow with firmware updates, if indeed you get them at all. They never updated the E71 for example and sold it with a very old firmware.

Sponge Bob

This policy of selling high end dataphones with little or no data allowances is crucifying them.

http://www.businesspost.ie/#!article/19410615-5218-4ebd-4efd-331003969175

The operator recorded revenues of €551 million for the first nine months of 2011, a year-on-year decline of 14 per cent. Meanwhile, operating cash flow for the same period was €120 million, a 24.7 per cent fall compared to 2010.

The operator also recorded a 19.2 per cent decline in revenues for the third quarter of 2011, according to Telefonica.

Of these, mobile service revenues declined 11.4 per cent in the nine months to September and declined 15.2% in the third quarter, compared to the same periods in 2010.

That is because their higher value customers are all jumping. Voda grew their subscribers over the last year IIRC ( maybe not their revenue but subscribers).

KrisW

I think it's fallout from iPhone. Strip away the tech-press love-in and fanboy hype, and the "benefit" to a business of carrying Apple's phones are pretty hard to pin down.

O2 took iPhone as a loss-leader to bring in and retain high-earning customers, but I think it backfired, as it has elsewhere in the world.
Apple used the exclusivity factor as a threat - "If you don't sign, we'll give it to Vodafone, and people will leave your network to get this". In the end, relatively few users jumped network to get an iPhone, except for the worst kind - the unprofitable high-users, over-consuming on fixed-rate data and whinging to the network every time their toy couldn't get a signal.

It was almost a blessing that these guys didn't stick after their contracts ended. Apple customers have brand loyalty nobody but Apple. But meanwhile the bigger subsidies given to iPhone contracts made O2's other offerings uncompetitive, and alienated existing customers who didn't want an iPhone but were otherwise happy with O2 (this ex-customer included).

The self-destructive behaviour of operators around iPhone is well discussed by analysts. The best quote I read was "imagine an All-you-can-eat restaurant that gave its greediest customers a 20% discount". That's what O2 were doing, and they're paying for it now.

bd250110

KrisW wrote: »

I think it's fallout from iPhone....

O2 took iPhone as a loss-leader to bring in and retain high-earning customers, but I think it backfired, as it has elsewhere in the world.
Apple used the exclusivity factor as a threat - "If you don't sign, we'll give it to Vodafone, and people will leave your network to get this". In the end, relatively few users jumped network to get an iPhone, except for the worst kind - the unprofitable high-users, over-consuming on fixed-rate data and whinging to the network every time their toy couldn't get a signal.

Is it though? The original iPhone was unsubsidised. Later they did subsidise it, but the plans were still far, far, more expensive than other phones. Make no mistake, as the initial operator o2 got more than their pound of flesh, they did gain subscribers over the period when the iPhone was exclusive. Indeed, that probably hid a lot of their underlying issues. It was only when the iPhone 4 launched on other networks, at competitive prices that the drain really started.

I think o2 have been caught on a few fronts,
1) They didn't expect the data hungry Mobile Broadband and iOS/Android markets to be as important as they are now and the resultant strain on their network.
2) They didn't expect their traditional business customers to come under fierce attack from Eircom and Three. The GFC and focus on costs makes o2's job to retain customers more difficult.
3) Their investment in 3G and 3G+ technologies has lagged Eircom and 3, who are now able to use their extra capacity and network to attract the new breed of smartphone customer, both consumer and business.
4) Restrictions from higher up the Telefonica chain which may make business cases that much tougher to justify investment.

It is clear to me that someone, somewhere, is restricting what o2 Ireland can do. There is no other logical reason to make plans more expensive with smaller allowances when Eircom and 3 are giving such great value. Just look at 3. Unlimited Phone, Talk and Text (UK roaming and UK calls too) for €95 a month. Eircom offer similar for €74 a month, there has been no effective competitive response.

drunkmonkey

You can blame the iphone but at the same time o2 also cut all o2 products from over 600 shops around the country and handed there whole Irish market over to carphone warehouse. That's ok if your carphones bitch which o2 was for a while but that's now changed. There more likely to offer you Vodafone now instead in carphone.
Besides a few shops dotted around the country o2 don't have a retail presence anymore.
My nearest o2 store is a 50mile round trip. It wasn't going to take long before people got sick of having to drive half way across the country to get a replacement sim or some advice.
o2 are dead in the water, telesales dirty tricks and €10 student broadband have massaged the figures for a while and have left a bitter taste in a lot of peoples mouths after getting duped into 18mt contracts for no reason.

racer1

o2 Bill Pay plans are pathetic. Its as simple as that. Anyone looking at a bill pay smartphone should avoid o2 at all costs IMO. On prepay you can spend 9.99 and get 700mb a month of data which leaves you 10 euro credit out of your 20. Not as good as 3 but better than the rest IMO.

Sponge Bob

drunkmonkey wrote: »

o2 are dead in the water, telesales dirty tricks and €10 student broadband have massaged the figures for a while and have left a bitter taste in a lot of peoples mouths after getting duped into 18mt contracts for no reason.

Telesales are even ringing up c.€20 a month spend prepay customers offering them contracts nowadays.

These €10 a month 10Gbyte allowance students are clogging the network up in urban areas to the extent that the potentially higher value smartphone customer is being restricted to 150 - 500mbytes on already quite expensive tariffs to compensate.

Course these higher value customers are the ones who are getting locked into 18 month crap contracts if they are not careful. Increasingly more of them are and are jumping.

Annoyingly a student can buy 2Gb of supplementary data for €9.99 INC VAT where a business user is charged €9.99 EX Vat (= €12.49 INC VAT) for 1GB on a high tariff .

They are going to have to offer business users the same deal as students...at least in terms of Topup packages such as data add ons. Business users pay the bills for operators ...but not if they shag off to some other operator.

KrisW

Is it though? The original iPhone was unsubsidised. Later they did subsidise it, but the plans were still far, far, more expensive than other phones. Make no mistake, as the initial operator o2 got more than their pound of flesh, they did gain subscribers over the period when the iPhone was exclusive. Indeed, that probably hid a lot of their underlying issues. It was only when the iPhone 4 launched on other networks, at competitive prices that the drain really started.

The iPhone was never offered unsubsidised on an Irish network (see http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/13103/iphone-irish-launch-o2-exclusive - the "retail" price was set at over €600 in Germany, where the law prohibits carrier exclusives). Only the original US launch phones were offered without subsidy, a policy that Apple reversed after poor sales. The iPhone plans had to be more expensive because the phone was so expensive, but there was a higher subsidy on iPhones than other devices. This was reflected in the monthly pricing. Then, to stop the iPhone seeming expensive, and maybe to try to recover their losses, O2 actually raised their other data plans to the same price as iPhone's. Dumb, dumb move.

You're definitely right about data-hungry users, and iPhone was the first, and worst, of these - by the time Android was any way popular, the networks were better able to manage data charging. Plus, unlike other devices, margins on iPhone handsets were tiny: Apple do not share their margins with anyone. The operators were expecting to claw back the income from contract spending, but Apple locked them into offering flat-rate data only, and data was all that the things ever used. Having no MMS support cut off another nice revenue stream too, and battery life was so poor it was hard to hit the voice minute limit on one of these.

I'd agree with your other points, and it's true that the big winners in Ireland have been Eircom and to a lesser extent, Three. Not having the distraction of iPhone allowed Eircom to gather a good chunk of profitable users (non-data billpay customers who are light users - O2 used to have lots of these, but they upsold them to money-losing iPhones), and use that money to invest in their network. The Emobile branding has made things a little more comfortable for small business users and sole traders, who would never have touched Meteor.

Three are able to work with the iPhone phenomenon because they never had a voice business in the first place, and there isn't the expectation of "full coverage, all the time" that customers of Vodafone and O2 would have. That said, they're still more of a mobile broadband provider than a phone network.

bd250110

KrisW wrote: »

The iPhone was never offered unsubsidised on an Irish network (see http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/13103/iphone-irish-launch-o2-exclusive - the "retail" price was set at over €600 in Germany, where the law prohibits carrier exclusives). Only the original US launch phones were offered without subsidy, a policy that Apple reversed after poor sales. The iPhone plans had to be more expensive because the phone was so expensive, but there was a higher subsidy on iPhones than other devices. This was reflected in the monthly pricing. Then, to stop the iPhone seeming expensive, and maybe to try to recover their losses, O2 actually raised their other data plans to the same price as iPhone's. Dumb, dumb move.

I think you need to check your facts your anti-iPhone bias is seriously undermining your arguments and are completely inaccurate. The article you quote is for undubsidised phones, I don't think the 2G iPhone was ever subsidised, in any market. It certainly originally sold in the UK unsibsidised. I bought one, it was £279, on an 18 month contract, locked to the network, but unsibsidised. At €399 for the 8GB model, given exchange rates and VAT differences and Celtic Tiger mark-up of the day, it seems about right. If o2 were not making money at €45.00 a month just for service there is something wrong at o2.

As for the iPhone being a data monster, that is not quite the case. Android handsets are known to be more data intensive, or they certainly were in the past. o2 were best placed to see the market was shifting from Voice & Text, towards data and smartphones (not just iPhones). Like I say, I don't think you can blame the iPhone, if anything the exclusivity papered over a lot of o2's cracks.

Most of your argument is just not a reflection of fact. What is it you think o2 are going to do now? Efficient platforms like BB and Symbian are contracting/dead, replaced with iOS, Android and WP7. Where do o2 go from here? Data hungry customers and devices are not going away - exactly the opposite.

vicM

bd250110 wrote: »

As for the iPhone being a data monster, that is not quite the case. Android handsets are known to be more data intensive, or they certainly were in the past. o2 were best placed to see the market was shifting from Voice & Text, towards data and smartphones (not just iPhones). Like I say, I don't think you can blame the iPhone, if anything the exclusivity papered over a lot of o2's cracks.

Most of your argument is just not a reflection of fact. What is it you think o2 are going to do now? Efficient platforms like BB and Symbian are contracting/dead, replaced with iOS, Android and WP7. Where do o2 go from here? Data hungry customers and devices are not going away - exactly the opposite.

a. I dont get this argument. You mean say the iphone and an android accessing the same exact sites using thier respective default browsers,would have different data consumption?? I know some browsers have rendering tricks which compresses data to allow for faster data exchange and what not, but not heard either camps doing this.

b. This is exactly the point, they should be shoring up for the onslaught and providing the data allowances to customers to attract/retain them. A customer may not be using up 1Gb of data a month, but the sheer confidence in knowing he/she has that allowance is good enough. 150 Mb may be the averagedata usage of customers but it just sounds Meagre

bd250110

vicM wrote: »

a. I dont get this argument.

Sorry what I meant was overall, the iPhone is said by operators to be more efficient in terms of network resources. I assume that is is due to the differences in background procedures and multi-tasking on the platforms - particularly when it comes to third party apps. Although, I believe the figures show iPhone users use more data than on comparable platforms - or at least that has been the case.

150 MB is a joke. You could easily use that on a dumb phone, it's completely inappropriate for a smartphone. 150 MB is only good for e-mail reading, but little else.

KrisW

The article you quote is for undubsidised phones, I don't think the 2G iPhone was ever subsidised, in any market. It certainly originally sold in the UK unsibsidised. I bought one, it was £279, on an 18 month contract, locked to the network, but unsibsidised.

That was a subsidised price, then. Unsubsidised, there's no need to lock you into a contract - PAYG phones are (normally) unsubsidised.

At €399 for the 8GB model, given exchange rates and VAT differences and Celtic Tiger mark-up of the day, it seems about right. If o2 were not making money at €45.00 a month just for service there is something wrong at o2.

It was €45.00 per month, of of which about €10 went to pay off the subsidy they had given on the phone. That left €35/mo, which they can collect from a low-usage bill-pay user, of which there are many, without having to worry about data provision.

Really, I mention iPhone because it was the first of the new, data-hog phones. O2 and the other launch partners were blinded by its ability to draw in new customers (which I don't dispute - the phone was a roaring success), but they grossly underestimated the amount of data usage that these customers would bring. They also misjudged just how much transfer from voice and SMS/MMS (for which they receive extra revenue) to data (which is a zero gain on a fixed plan) there would be.

The original iPhone data plan was unlimited, and the devices used a lot of data. When O2 tried to rectify this, they alienated the customers with iPhones (by capping and raising prices), then those without, by raising non-iPhone plans to match.

As for the iPhone being a data monster, that is not quite the case. Android handsets are known to be more data intensive, or they certainly were in the past. o2 were best placed to see the market was shifting from Voice & Text, towards data and smartphones (not just iPhones). Like I say, I don't think you can blame the iPhone, if anything the exclusivity papered over a lot of o2's cracks.

When the iPhone launched here, there were no Android devices. This isn't a comparison on Android or iPhone, it's the network completely misjudging how a product would be used.

When Android arrived, the lessons had been learned. Also, none of the Android makers were able to wrangle a fixed-rate no-limit data plan as a condition of taking their devices. This is what I think made iPhone a mistake for the launch partners: the cost of providing service was open-ended, but the revenue was fixed. (I'm assuming that there was no other payment to gain exclusivity in the first place)

Most of your argument is just not a reflection of fact. What is it you think o2 are going to do now? Efficient platforms like BB and Symbian are contracting/dead, replaced with iOS, Android and WP7. Where do o2 go from here? Data hungry customers and devices are not going away - exactly the opposite.

They go where everyone else is going, but if you look at the operators who had, and did not have, the iPhone as an exclusive, then those without are doing better now.

It may not be my cup of tea personally, but I think the iPhone is a great device for customers, and now, today, there are ways for operators to make money from its attractiveness. I just don't think it was so hot for the operators who launched with it, that's all.

bd250110

I will repeat that the original, 2G iPhone, was unsibsidised, both in the US, UK and in Ireland. That was Apple's go-to market plan, the reason there was an 18 month commitment was likely due to the revenue share deals Apple initially struck, somewhere in the region of 15%. Later they moved to a more traditional wholesale supply model. Google also tied this approach with the Nexus One, it just does not work. Neither the networks or customers like it.

Anyway, I would argue that o2 were the best placed of the Irish networks to see the data explosion coming. Maybe they thought the iPhone (and smartphones, in general) were going to be a fashion trend - like clamshell and super thin phones were. It seems a bit naieve though, even from day one the iPhone was seen as the type of phone we would all be using "in the future". They would have known about the Android's that were coming to market and seen that the iPhone was growing too. Maybe "the future" came to soon for o2, but as I say their current strategy smells like someone higher up the food chain at Telefonica is pulling the strings.

danjo-xx

Letting Tesco use their network has this affected them badly now and anyone know how long they are tied into them.

vicM

danjo-xx wrote: »

Letting Tesco use their network has this affected them badly now and anyone know how long they are tied into them.

How so? thier is nothing wrong with the network performance, infact it has arguably the best network on average.
The problem is thier Billpay and Prepay packages, moreso the data offered. Somebody upstairs thinking is stuck in reverse.

Sponge Bob

vicM wrote: »

How so? thier is nothing wrong with the network performance, infact it has arguably the best network on average.
The problem is thier Billpay and Prepay packages, moreso the data offered. Somebody upstairs thinking is stuck in reverse.

And Tesco Mobile will give you 10,000 minutes a month plus 15Gb of data for €75....ON THE O2 NETWORK and all.

danjo-xx

vicM wrote: »

How so? thier is nothing wrong with the network performance, infact it has arguably the best network on average.
The problem is thier Billpay and Prepay packages, moreso the data offered. Somebody upstairs thinking is stuck in reverse.

What I was asking is.. Is Tesco taking a lot of their customers away from them and how long is this sharing of the 02 network with Tesco due to last.

DjFlin

Myself and a few friends are leaving Vodafone, they've started taking the royal p*ss lately, and Three seem to be offering much better service.