Kevin Myers column about Naas town planning

DWCommuter

Victor wrote: »

On the Kilcullen Road, do the housing estates (and the houses beyond them) beyond the south ring road have shops to serve them? Doctor? Schools? And then the houses 5km out of town?

Why is there large amounts of development beyond the motorway?

There wouldn't be so many red lights if there wasn't so much traffic. There wouldn't be so much traffic if people didn't have to drive.

Interesting point Victor.

As a resident of Naas for nearly 23 years I can say this, In general your point about the Kilcullen road is correct. The first estate furthest out that road was originally Esmondale. (built I'd say in the late 70s.) It had a row of shops by the 80s and that eventually included the first Chinese takeaway in Naas. But because it was merely one estate the shops folded and got converted to apartments/housing. The Chinese takeaway survives because it delivers in a car dependent fashion. Fast forward a few years and other estates have sprung up beyond it and there is no basic shop within walking distance. In their wisdom Naas Town Council permitted the conversion of the nearest commercial (and aforementioned building) to residential. So one can easily say they hadn't a ****ing clue what one hand was doing over the other despite so called town plans etc. etc.

However, in terms of recent development, the Kilcullen road is perhaps the one and only example of a residential area in Naas that isn't within walking distance of a shop or indeed a School. Very poor and actually one of the last land banks to screw some mortgage money out of suckers.

Overall, while Naas is pretty much a disaster zone, the default planning of housing since 1993 has afforded the private sector an opportunity to provide local shopping facilities within walking distance of many homes. In fact the Kilcullen road example is perhaps at the extremity of all that is wrong even though the rest of the newer estates are far from perfect in terms of accessibility to a local shop.

As you may well know Victor, the traffic problem in Naas has more to do with the sprawling nature of its housing development in relation to the town itself and schools. Its car dependent country out here just like many other towns and that comes back to our "land" issue and indeed the time of Mr. De Valera and his quest to give the poor people of Ireland a Garden. High Density (which was and is the way forward) probably reminded us of Tenement Dublin, which was effectively high density done badly.

Victor

DWCommuter wrote: »

As a resident of Naas for nearly 23 years I can say this, In general your point about the Kilcullen road is correct.

I actually haven't been on that road since 1991(?), but it is very much separate from the rest of Naas.

and that comes back to our "land" issue and indeed the time of Mr. De Valera and his quest to give the poor people of Ireland a Garden.

I think it had less to do with gardens and more to do with (not) sinning.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50713407&postcount=27

Pete_Cavan

veryangryman wrote: »

They can have both! As they do in Naas. Who there NEEDS a car to get the basics?

I get your point if town centre places close but seriously (everyone), quit the one-sidedness. Naas still has Tesco/Penneys in town. Can you give an example of a similar sized town without a supermarket and clothes shop within touching distance of main street.

The main problem with retail parks and large supermarkets out of town, IMO at least, is that they take customers from other businesses in the town centre, forcing them to close. At least with supermarkets located in the town centre, other smaller businesses can still attract passing customers which leads to more economic activity.

There was an interesting programme on BBC over Christmas about the "Big Four" supermarkets (Tesco, Asda, Morrisons and Sainsburys) and how they are expanding to offer all the services traditionally offered by specialist shops (butchers, cafes, pharmacy, even travel agents). This is killing off other shops. Soon we could have a situation where (on the outskirts of) every town in the country there is a Tesco and/or Supervalu, Lidl and/or Aldi, Pennys and/or TK Max, Woods and/or Atlantic Homecare, Smiths/Toys r Us but no other shops. This is not good for competition.

Also, there is the issue of providing and maintain all the services (water, sewerage, electricity, broadband, etc.) the retail parks require. In a town centre you could install 1km of water main which would serve over 100 homes, shops and offices. With our current situation of retail space spread for miles out of town in all directions, you may need 20km of water mains to serve 100 businesses. Development levies do not cover the cost of these services because our shortsighted planning usually means the services have to be upgraded (ie large diameter pipe installed to meet demand) within 10 years. The same is true of other utilities. At least if development was focused in towns we could provide better infrastructure at a fraction of the cost of the sh*te infrastructure we have now. This would save the taxpayer a fortune.

veryangryman

Victor wrote: »

On the Kilcullen Road, do the housing estates (and the houses beyond them) beyond the south ring road have shops to serve them? Doctor? Schools? And then the houses 5km out of town?

Why is there large amounts of development beyond the motorway?

There wouldn't be so many red lights if there wasn't so much traffic. There wouldn't be so much traffic if people didn't have to drive.

Where do you expect that everyone lives? In town? There is not enough space there to accomadate everyone so they have to live on these estates some miles out.

To suggest that having these shops in town would sort out the traffic situation is a bit far fetched IMO. People didnt move out of town for shopping reasons - they did it because places in town are either not available or are too expensive.

And you cant expect public transport to be great in towns with circa 20K popultion. ERGO one needs a car, ergo there will be traffic in town. Ergo, its good to avoid getting stuck in the traffic as much as possible.

eia340600

veryangryman wrote: »

Where do you expect that everyone lives? In town? There is not enough space there to accomadate everyone so they have to live on these estates some miles out.

To suggest that having these shops in town would sort out the traffic situation is a bit far fetched IMO. People didnt move out of town for shopping reasons - they did it because places in town are either not available or are too expensive.

And you cant expect public transport to be great in towns with circa 20K popultion. ERGO one needs a car, ergo there will be traffic in town. Ergo, its good to avoid getting stuck in the traffic as much as possible.

With sufficient density everyone could live in town.Everyone would live near shops and services, more people would be living closer to one transport node making public transport much more viable, ergo nobody needs cars, ergo no traffic problems exist.

My method is proven to increase quality of life.(Some European cities/towns)
Yours is proven to decrease quality of life.(Almost every US city/town)

Victor

veryangryman wrote: »

Where do you expect that everyone lives? In town? There is not enough space there to accomadate everyone so they have to live on these estates some miles out.

Map attached of the Naas town boundary (red line, yes its a circle). While the map is out of date, you can see the built up area reaches both Johnstown and Sallins (probably acceptable as that is where the train station is) and there is development around both motorway interchanges. There is plenty of land within the town, but the county council is still allowing plenty of construction along the N/M7 and the Newbridge road.

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,689108,720116,4

exaisle

Victor wrote: »

Wouldn't it be much better if people could live within walking distance of local services and not dependent on a car to get some bread and milk?

Wouldn't it be better for whom?

Some people prefer to live in areas away from towns and cities. It's a lifestyle choice for them and the likelihood is that they pay extra for that privilege.

On an unrelated point, on the Blessington side of Naas, there is a small shopping centre (at Hazlemere I think) which services that residential area. One wonders how that ever got built....

On balance, I think that we have been fairly badly served by planners....Blessington Town Centre. I rest my case.

Pete_Cavan

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/environment/call-for-a-ban-on-outoftown-shopping-centres-16010292.html
Up North they are calling for a ban on new out-of-town shopping centres. Read the comments below the article, the attitude they display is very worrying.