Rifle cleaning

dCorbus

Obviously every single shooter is going to have a different opinion on cleaning regimes, so for every shooter you'll probably get different opinions and advice on this whole cleaning question.:o

Collective nouns again: A Disagreement of Shooters:rolleyes::D

For a really good read on the subject of bore-brushing, have a look at this article from 6mmBR.com, with opinions from some of the most experienced and knowledgeable high-level competitive shooters and custom-barrel manufacturers: 6mmBR.com The Great Bore-brushing Debate You may end up more confused than enlightened having read the article, but the opinions and advice in it are all sound and you should take what you will from the info given.

My own few bits of humble advice (for what they're worth), now that you've clarified it's a centrefire rifle in .223 with a decent factory barrel, are:

1. Don't bother with Moly-coating IMO: Haven't tried it myself TBH but I cannot see the benefit, other than costing you more money on moly-coated ammo and the hassle of always ensuring you have a supply of only moly-coated ammo. Keep your barrel good and clean is my advice and stick with the tried and tested ways of doing this. From my research, reading, and asking around about moly pro's and con's, it seems that this is only for dedicated followers of fashion - the rest of us mere mortals should stick with the bore brush, patches, and solvents. Again, that's only my opinion - and others will no doubt disagree.
2. If at all possible, get a couple of good quality nylon bore-brushes. Worldwide opinions varying on whether a bronze brush can or will damage/scratch your bore. Some say they will, some say they won't, and some sit on the fence!;) All i can say, is that having got some nylon bore-brushes recently, I feel a lot more comfortable giving the bore a good hard scrub than when I used the bronze brushes. Also, you are far less likely to scratch or nick the crown with a nylon brush.
3. Invest in some Forrest Foam ForrestFoam at the Sportsmans Gun Centre or WipeOut (some more info available here on HPS's website: WipeOut at HPS-TR) for when you are giving the barrel a really good clean and want to make sure the copper fouling is well taken care of. I haven't found these in too many gun shops around the place, so I usually stock up when over in the UK or up the North.

A bore-guide is an absolute must. Get one before you attempt to clean.

Also, IMO a chamber and bolt locking-lug cleaning kit would also be a good investment in the medium term (it's not absolutely necessary - but is very handy and you'll at least know that there's no crud building up in those unseen crevices). The Sinclair ACT11 comes recommended from a few shooters Sinclair ACT2 Action Cleaning Kit and it's one of the bits of kit on my own shopping list.

What methods suit you, your shooting, your rifle, and your time availability, will dictate what cleaning regime you choose for yourself and your rifle. Trial and error will tell you what will or will not affect the rifles accuracy. Keeping a rifle clean can only stand you in good stead if you ever go to sell it on and a well-cared for rifle should keep you shooting for many years!

Either way, they're just a couple of pointers based on my limited experience and, by experimenting with various regimes, you'll find what suits you and the rifle. Best of luck with it and have fun.

Tackleberrywho

I use Moly and Non Moly.

The .308 has copper in the barrel, the .223 that uses Moly Doesn't

I've been using Moly for the SAME price as Non Moly rounds for around 3 or 4 years now. (I'm not sure when I started using them first)

I've heard nobody complain about Hornady 55Grain Moly Rounds.

I buy in 100's so I try and avoid availability issues, However I have the same issues with availability of .308 NON Moly rounds.

OP, Welcome to teh world of Varminting, massive "Fun"
Yes I did say fun!

dCorbus

Fairy nuff, tac, on the moly front. That's what I meant when I said it's a matter of great debate.

Personally, I won't advise moly - and you, like many others no doubt, will.

The .308 has copper in the barrel

Have you tried cleaning the .308 barrel perhaps?:p
And how do you know that your .223 has no copper fouling in the barrel, if you don't clean it?

I buy in 100's

That's a decent weekend's shooting in my book!:D:rolleyes::D

I have the same issues with availability of .308 NON Moly rounds

Eh?

Availability of certain brands, weights, and types of .308 may or may not be available at all times from all dealers, but I'd be pretty sure I would never be unable to purchase a .308 round at any given time anywhere in the country. Can you say the same about moly's? If so, fair enough. I just believed them to be less readily available in all the weights, types, and brands that non-moly rounds are.

Either way, as I said, to each their own and it's whatever suits the individual shooter and their rifle. There's no right or wrong way of doing any of this (well TBH there is a wrong way - but there are many right ways).

Tackleberrywho

I can't get Hornady, my Brand of choice in .308 in Superperformance

Savage Hunting round.
I'm a major fan of ballistic tipped over softnose, and I'll I can find most times is soft nose.

Currently running HPS which was €179 for 100, I could not afford to be firing 100 of those every weekend (not made of money)

If I can't get ammo I still have Hornady Softnose which is quite accurate in my set up, but not as accurate as TAP or Hopefully Superperformance

In regards cleaning I have Hoppes Benchrest, Forrests Foam and Hoppes No.9 amongst a few.
As copper migrates as a metal is is almost impossible to get it all out.
In a match grade barrel it may be easier remove as the bore is polished finer.

If I could get Moly for the .308 I would!

zaitsev

Anyone know where I can get KG cleaning products here ?
Specifically looking for Kg 1 Carbon Cleaner...

gunhappy_ie

zaitsev wrote: »

Anyone know where I can get KG cleaning products here ?
Specifically looking for Kg 1 Carbon Cleaner...

Gim Griffin supplies all the KG stuff. I cant remember the name of the shop but its in Rathan (spelling ???) in offally.

alternativly ring midlands and ask for him.

Cass

The Tackle Shop, Rahan, Tullamore. 057 93 55979.

dev110

What does people think of the KG cleaning products?

gunhappy_ie

dev110 wrote: »

What does people think of the KG cleaning products?

There cleaning products I havent had experience with but I have used there KG gunkote and wasnt that Impressed.

Ive used MPRO7 (for cleaning) for years now along with Militec-1 (as a lubricant/protector) and have been more than happy

johngalway

Tried KG, won't be buying that stuff again.

Hoppes Benchrest and Shooters Choice now, they seem to work well.

zeissman

I tried KG as well. I thought the carbon cleaner worked well but didnt think much of the copper cleaner

doyle61

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

http://www.otisgun.com/pc_product_detail.asp?key=459AF3413F7A421DB4462B2E01C4F568

$179 I think I'll pass. I was going to get one for my Leatherman MUT, however I think I'll stick with my Parker hale Rods.

Only shi* thing is I need a different rod for the .308 and the .223 as the attachments are not interchangeable

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=18390/Product/CLEANING_RODS

looks like they have gone up in price:eek:. i got my kit for $50 (overseas) and with the attachment and optic kit included it came to less than $100. the price on the web site is a bit steep alright but say someone has a shotgun, a .17hmr, a .223 and say a .308 in their gun safe...........well at that stage $179 doesnt look too bad as the one kit does everything:cool:

Tackleberrywho

doyle61 wrote: »

looks like they have gone up in price:eek:. i got my kit for $50 (overseas) and with the attachment and optic kit included it came to less than $100. the price on the web site is a bit steep alright but say someone has a shotgun, a .17hmr, a .223 and say a .308 in their gun safe...........well at that stage $179 doesnt look too bad as the one kit does everything:cool:

I've a .223 Shotgun and .308, however I have cleaning equip for all of them.

If I could get the kit for less than $100 then I would consider it, as they attach to a leatherman MUT.

Maybe next Christmas

FISMA

Not sure what the concern about bronze brushes is. My concern with the plastic or tornado brushes is whether they will do the job properly, especially in the grooves.

I have cleaned many barrels many times and never had a problem with my bronze brushes.

The main component of bronze is copper, correct? Then, probably tin or something else.

I find it difficult to believe a bronze brush would cause more damage than a bullet, traveling supersonic speeds.

I doubt very much if the metallurgy of today's barrels would allow bronze to scratch it. If it did destroy or harm barrels, I am sure manufacturers would be quick to void lifetime warranties.

Also, I have worn a lot of brushes out. That tells me the brushes are wearing, not the bore. I cannot imagine the brush companies leaving themselves open to the lawsuits that would fly if their brushes were demonstrated to wear barrels.

Unfortunately, I have no studies to back up my theory. If anyone has a study, from either perspective, please advise.

Maybe, I'll do one this summer.:)

gunhappy_ie

FISMA wrote: »

Not sure what the concern about bronze brushes is. My concern with the plastic or tornado brushes is whether they will do the job properly, especially in the grooves.

I have cleaned many barrels many times and never had a problem with my bronze brushes.

The main component of bronze is copper, correct? Then, probably tin or something else.

I find it difficult to believe a bronze brush would cause more damage than a bullet, traveling supersonic speeds.

I doubt very much if the metallurgy of today's barrels would allow bronze to scratch it. If it did destroy or harm barrels, I am sure manufacturers would be quick to void lifetime warranties.

Also, I have worn a lot of brushes out. That tells me the brushes are wearing, not the bore. I cannot imagine the brush companies leaving themselves open to the lawsuits that would fly if their brushes were demonstrated to wear barrels.

Unfortunately, I have no studies to back up my theory. If anyone has a study, from either perspective, please advise.

Maybe, I'll do one this summer.:)

Agreed on the bronze brushes !

In my job Ive seen many many barrels using issued bronze and nylon brushes and Ive never once seen rifle a barrel fail a wear gauge. (failing CHS though is different)

I once had a guy try to tell me that using a Snake bore would damage the crown of my rifle by applying uneven pressure to any side as I pull it out. I swear... i couldnt contain my laughter as i said.... "its made of cotton with a tiny bit of bronze embedded in it". I cant possibly see how, (and after using them myself for years) the bronze in the snakebore could damage barrel steel.

I also think that bore guides while having limited use are 99% complete gimmic !

murph226

could you explain "chs" for me in laymans terms

Cass

I'm assuming Gunhappy is refering to Chamber Head Spacing. This is the "gap" between the bolt face and the chamber face.


The "gap" is illustrated in the diagram below as point A to B.
D = Bolt.
E = Case
C = Receiver.

murph226

Ah headspacing, cheers Ezridax!

Cass

I can only assume that is what he refers to. Cannot think of anything else with that lettering.

gunhappy_ie

Ezridax wrote: »

I'm assuming Gunhappy is refering to Chamber Head Spacing. This is the "gap" between the bolt face and the chamber face.


The "gap" is illustrated in the diagram below as point A to B.
D = Bolt.
E = Case
C = Receiver.

Sorry, Yes, wasnt thinking when I abbreviated that but its Cartridge Head Space.


Actually while not the true defintion, to avoid confusion its best to leave that diagram/description as the definition because in different actions and different calibres have different points to reference head spacing from.

Cass

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

Actually while not the true defintion, ..............

Correct.

The example i gave was for a rimmed case.

A rimless case would be measured from the bolt face to the Datum line.

dCorbus

I have cleaned many barrels many times and never had a problem with my bronze brushes.

Agreed on the bronze brushes !

A good example of the varied and contradictory opinions on this subject!:D;)

TBH I doubt if we'll get any agreement on this (or even a consensus). Which is why i'd mentioned "to each his own" on this one.

Personally, and IMvHO, the bronze brush won't "wear out" the barrel - That's not going to happen as the bronze is far less hard than the barrel steel. However, the bronze brush may scratch the bore - and even a minor scratch will allow copper and carbon fouling to build up further - and a minor scratch may detrimentally effect accuracy.

Note that I say may here - I'm not saying it will, but if the chances are there that scratches may occur, I'm not going to take my chance on damaging the barrel in any way and am going to err very firmly on the side of caution. That's just me, and as I've said others will disagree on this. It's a personal choice TBH.

I find it difficult to believe a bronze brush would cause more damage than a bullet

I don't think anyone is saying that. Of course a bronze brush won't wear out a barrel any more than putting a round down it. But it may very well scratch the surface of the bore or the crown.

Something interesting I read recently:

"How long does it take a bullet to wear out a barrel? About 3 seconds."

Anyway, I digest!:D

My concern with the plastic or tornado brushes is whether they will do the job properly, especially in the grooves.

I don't rely on the brush (nylon, bronze, or otherwise) to do the bulk of the cleaning work. That's the job for which I rely on the chemicals and solvents and patches to do. Hence the stocks of forrest foam, hoppes, and butches in my cleaning cabinet.

I am sure manufacturers would be quick to void lifetime warranties

Which rifle and barrel manufacturers give a lifetime warrantee on their barrels?

I cannot imagine the brush companies leaving themselves open to the lawsuits that would fly if their brushes were demonstrated to wear barrels.

Again, no one is saying that a brush can wear out or wear down a barrel. Just that some minor damage, by way of scratches, nicks, etc., may be created.

I once had a guy try to tell me that using a Snake bore would damage the crown of my rifle by applying uneven pressure to any side as I pull it out. I swear... i couldnt contain my laughter as i said.... "its made of cotton with a tiny bit of bronze embedded in it". I cant possibly see how, (and after using them myself for years) the bronze in the snakebore could damage barrel steel.

Can't see a boresnake doing much of anything to a barrel, other than merely scraping out the lumpy crud (which TBH shouldn't have been allowed to accumulate in the first place;):D). It certainly won't remove all the carbon, any of the copper, or properly clean your barrel to any extent other than "whooshing" out the lumpy bits of crud.

That said, I wouldn't put one down the barrel of either of my target rifles.

I also think that bore guides while having limited use are 99% complete gimmic !

To each their own.;)

But if you don't use a bore-guide, how do you stop solvents, oil, crud, etc. from fouling your trigger mechanism or building up in the chamber, locking-lugs, receiver area on a regular basis?

FISMA

DCorbus,
Not trying to start a holy war either. Your post was very fair and balanced.

I am just wondering if anyone has ever done a study on this. Seems like the kind of thing that the techie gun type people would love to analyze.

I am surprised that there is not a lot of good data out there.

So you're concern is that there are scratches, correct? Are we talking visible to the naked eye or magnification required.

I only ask because I believe that's something I could tackle. There's a kind of silicon that you could inject into the barrel, I believe CSI types use it for lands and grooves. The silicon hardens and you can see lands, grooves, and scratches - at least larger ones.

Make a mold of a new gun, shoot it, make a mold, clean it, make a mold.

Could be a first for boards.ie if we had it published!

Cass

FISMA wrote: »

There's a kind of silicon that you could inject into the barrel, I believe CSI types use it for lands and grooves. The silicon hardens and you can see lands, grooves, and scratches - at least larger ones.

Make a mold of a new gun, shoot it, make a mold, clean it, make a mold.

Would a bore scope not be easier?

Get an unfired, untouched rifle. Fire it and clean it multiple times checking the bore, chamber, breach for markings from the cleaning brushes, rods, etc.

However for a comprehensive test you would need to have a few rifles. One with a wire brush, one with a nylon brush, with bore guide, without bore guide. Its do-able but needs alot of work and access to multiple rifles.

Any volunteers?

Tackleberrywho

FISMA wrote: »

DCorbus,
Not trying to start a holy war either. Your post was very fair and balanced.

I am just wondering if anyone has ever done a study on this. Seems like the kind of thing that the techie gun type people would love to analyze.

I am surprised that there is not a lot of good data out there.

So you're concern is that there are scratches, correct? Are we talking visible to the naked eye or magnification required.

I only ask because I believe that's something I could tackle. There's a kind of silicon that you could inject into the barrel, I believe CSI types use it for lands and grooves. The silicon hardens and you can see lands, grooves, and scratches - at least larger ones.

Make a mold of a new gun, shoot it, make a mold, clean it, make a mold.

Could be a first for boards.ie if we had it published!

I could see small scratches with my Led Lenser inside mt barrel. Tiny but there. I'm used to inspecting chambers or machines so I appreciate the difference white light makes.

A Boreguide, if doing nothing else stops the shoulder of the chamber stripping the plastic coating off your cleaning rod.

It's there where I have a fondness for moly, as no need for all this scrubbing.


Some guys love cleaning more than shooting (I prefer shooting and cleaning if required)

FISMA

Ezridax wrote: »

Would a bore scope not be easier?

Get an unfired, untouched rifle. Fire it and clean it multiple times checking the bore, chamber, breach for markings from the cleaning brushes, rods, etc.

However for a comprehensive test you would need to have a few rifles. One with a wire brush, one with a nylon brush, with bore guide, without bore guide. Its do-able but needs alot of work and access to multiple rifles.

Any volunteers?

True Ez, definitely easier.

A scan, topological type scan seems a bit much for the equipment available to me. However, I am sure it could be done.

I wonder if those bore scopes could be used to image the bore in 2D. At least then we would be able to make some measurements.

Let's keep it simple at first and work with just a bronze brush.

Abstract - the purpose of this experiment is to determine if a bronze brush scratches a rifle bore.

I wonder if any companies would be willing to supply a barrel for the purposes of science?

Hmmmm.

MACT1RE

Shoot rifle until accuracy drops off, clean and repeat.

gunhappy_ie

FISMA wrote: »

DCorbus,
Not trying to start a holy war either. Your post was very fair and balanced.

I am just wondering if anyone has ever done a study on this. Seems like the kind of thing that the techie gun type people would love to analyze.

I am surprised that there is not a lot of good data out there.

So you're concern is that there are scratches, correct? Are we talking visible to the naked eye or magnification required.

I only ask because I believe that's something I could tackle. There's a kind of silicon that you could inject into the barrel, I believe CSI types use it for lands and grooves. The silicon hardens and you can see lands, grooves, and scratches - at least larger ones.

Make a mold of a new gun, shoot it, make a mold, clean it, make a mold.

Could be a first for boards.ie if we had it published!

Ezridax wrote: »

Would a bore scope not be easier?

Get an unfired, untouched rifle. Fire it and clean it multiple times checking the bore, chamber, breach for markings from the cleaning brushes, rods, etc.

However for a comprehensive test you would need to have a few rifles. One with a wire brush, one with a nylon brush, with bore guide, without bore guide. Its do-able but needs alot of work and access to multiple rifles.

Any volunteers?

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I could see small scratches with my Led Lenser inside mt barrel. Tiny but there. I'm used to inspecting chambers or machines so I appreciate the difference white light makes.

A Boreguide, if doing nothing else stops the shoulder of the chamber stripping the plastic coating off your cleaning rod.

It's there where I have a fondness for moly, as no need for all this scrubbing.


Some guys love cleaning more than shooting (I prefer shooting and cleaning if required)

FISMA wrote: »

True Ez, definitely easier.

A scan, topological type scan seems a bit much for the equipment available to me. However, I am sure it could be done.

I wonder if those bore scopes could be used to image the bore in 2D. At least then we would be able to make some measurements.

Let's keep it simple at first and work with just a bronze brush.

Abstract - the purpose of this experiment is to determine if a bronze brush scratches a rifle bore.

I wonder if any companies would be willing to supply a barrel for the purposes of science?

Hmmmm.

Having glanced over your posts, its fueled a theory that Ive had for a long time.

That is that most applications dont really give a sh!t.......

Simply because (and as proof) the main contributions for years have been military applications (as much as it may pain some to hear)

Now of course, firing a projectile at supersonic speeds up a barrel will scratch the lands and grooves ...............Yes............

However, these guys arent cleaning the barrel for 10-20 min after every shot...............they carry on because as muce as accuracy is to them they do operate on the principle of "near enough is good enough" that being that these guys want X size group. I know of several civilain shooters that constantly want to improve on that groups but no matter how much they clean and scrub there barrels.... its not working for them !


To test ............and better than a rifled barrel would be a bored out piece of steel.

Devise a machine that runs copper brush after copper brush through a steel bar of X internal diamater and measure at intervals !

IMO IF there was a variation in wear it would be so smalll that over long distance it would not only be compensated for but forgotten about.

gunhappy_ie

MACT1RE wrote: »

Shoot rifle until accuracy drops off, clean and repeat.

I wont plus 1 this .. ill plus 10 !!!

Companies thrive on people being so anal about there shooting/cleaning that they will release all sorts of products claiming everything that a shooter wants to hear, especially if its an american based product.

dCorbus

Would a bore scope not be easier?

+1 on the bore-scope

I am just wondering if anyone has ever done a study on this

Don't know if there's ever been a scientific and empirical study done - but there is plenty of reference and "anecdotal" material on this (ref. my post earlier and the 6mmBR.com article).

So you're concern is that there are scratches, correct? Are we talking visible to the naked eye or magnification required

TBH I don't know.
My gut instinct tells me that if you rub one piece of metal vigorously against another piece of metal, albeit a softer metal against a hard metal, you will get some level of surface scoring or indentation.

From my perspective, the only piece of metal I now put down my barrel is the piece of metal that the barrel is designed specifically to have put through it: the bullet. I see no reason why, given that it is not necessary, I would push a metal brush into my rifle bore. If you don't need to do it, why would you? Simples.

But hey, if you can get a scientific institution to carry out a study on this, fire ahead and more power to your elbow.

Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to donate my rifle to science!;):D

I'm used to inspecting chambers or machines

Hmmmm......Flannelette, Anyone?:p:D:rolleyes::D

Some guys love cleaning more than shooting

I doubt it - Least, no one i know of does.
Some guys just love not potentially f88kin' up their rather hard-earned and pricy barrels for the sake of a €1.80 piece of nylon.

I prefer shooting and cleaning if required

As do we all.
No one could ever accuse me of cleaning unnecessarily or being overly regular with my cleaning regime! But I depend on the rifle to outshoot me, so I make sure there's nothing I do which will detract from the rifles inate accuracy.

What is it they say about a good workman looking after their tools?;):D