Is an architect always required ?

MungoMan

My brother built a new house recently.

He didnt get an architect.
He saw a house he liked, photographed it, went to a civil engineering firm with the pictures, and asked for a house with a similar "look" scaled down to 300 sq/meters (the original house was 500 sq meters)

They designed the house, and it did have many of the design features of the original house, with some differences.

Then he employed a local builder who built and project managed the house (my brother had no day to day involvement in the day to day building of the house). The structural engineer inspected the build at intervals.

At no stage was there an architect involved, no BER assessor.

As regards building regulations, we hope they were all conformed to. Nobody gave him a certificate of compliance with the building regs, nor did he ask for one. My brother didnt even know that there are building regs.

He ended up with a very easy to heat house which he is very happy with,
it was a very traditional cavity wall build, nothing too challenging for the builders. To the untrained eye, the workmanship looks really good.

Is it stupid to build a house without an architect ? In what way would an architect make for a better house ?

Is a structural engineer competent to design a house ?

sydthebeat

anyone can design... some are just much better at it than others.

some people are happy to live in a dwelling where the main demands of the design is "to get planning" "to be easily built" "to get the biggest house for our budget". If that is the brief then there is no real requirement for a gifted designer.
other people want to live in a home which is specific to their current and future needs, specific to the site, individual, architectural (artistic) and comfortable. The greater the specific demands, the greater the skills required of the designer.

My 6 year old can draw a very good picture of a house, smoke out of the chimney and all......

To move on to your brother building without due cognisance of he building regulations, it was the responsibility of the building contractor to build in accordance with the building regulations. If the engineer "signed it off" then he took that responsibility. If your bother moved into his house within the last 2 years (ish), without a BER, then HE broke the law. Ignorance of a law is not a defence.

MungoMan

there was no BER, I guess he broke the law, through ignorance

ill mention it to him and he can get one

tails_naf

Hold on - if you move into a house (self build, direct labour), and you have not obtained a BER, you are breaking the law?

Well that includes me then - even though I have built to regs and beyond in terms of energy efficiency.

I thought the BER was only required by law if you are renting or selling, and I plan on doing neither - but if I was to rent or sell, I would get a BER done.

tails_naf

I did a bit of googling (which I should have done first, sorry - but I was surprised!)

It's pretty clear from this that everyone building now, or who has built in the past 2 years need a BER

Also interesting to note that it only lasts for ten years!
So after ten years, do we all have to get new certs?

Sounds like a lucrative game to be in

MicktheMan

tails_naf wrote: »

Hold on - if you move into a house (self build, direct labour), and you have not obtained a BER, you are breaking the law?

Well that includes me then - even though I have built to regs and beyond in terms of energy efficiency.

I thought the BER was only required by law if you are renting or selling, and I plan on doing neither - but if I was to rent or sell, I would get a BER done.

A ber cert will demonstrate compliance (or not) with Part L of b regs. Without a ber, you cannot demonstrate compliance.

tails_naf

Will anyone be checking on this compliance, or proof of it?

also, how does the BER assessor know I put 125mm of insulation in the foundation - or that the walls have 200mm of insulation in the timber frame?

sinnerboy

When the house is eventually assessed the assesor will have to use defaults unless you have a profesional to certify the actual spec. Your BER rating may dissapoint you .

sinnerboy

tails_naf wrote: »

Will anyone be checking on this compliance, or proof of it?

Yes. When you seek a re mortgage or seek to sell expect lots of checking. Money will not flow so freely in future.

Also - my own opinion now, one day carbon taxes will be levied against the not-paid-attention-to-too-much-for-now carbon part of the BER cert. A cert produced to defaults may not give full credit to your actual spec.

MungoMan

MicktheMan wrote: »

A ber cert will demonstrate compliance (or not) with Part L of b regs. Without a ber, you cannot demonstrate compliance.

In my brothers case, he will apply for a BER now, thats proof of Part L covered.

As regards the other regs, he didnt get any certificates of compliance with the building regulations from the structural engineer or builder.

Is it important that he gets them now (even though the build was finished 18 months ago) ?

Is it mandatory to get certificates of compliance ? Is proof needed (in case the department do an audit on his house). Or do they they do audits ?

tails_naf

I didn't get certs for any part of the build - not one supplier/installer mentioned them or offered them.

i.e. the timber frame had 0.18u walls, and 1.1u windows, as per spec, but there were no certs supplied to me to prove this.

Also, for the insulation in the floor and attic, I purchased and installed this myself - so will an assessor use defaults in these cases because I don't have a cert for them?

galwaytt

tails_naf wrote: »

It's pretty clear from this that everyone building now, or who has built in the past 2 years need a BER

Also interesting to note that it only lasts for ten years!
So after ten years, do we all have to get new certs?

Sounds like a lucrative game to be in

So, if you think that the take up of BER's is low, does anyone actually expect renewal compliance rate to increase ? Ha, not on your life...

MicktheMan wrote: »

A ber cert will demonstrate compliance (or not) with Part L of b regs. Without a ber, you cannot demonstrate compliance.

....which brings us to a point: to whom ? If you're the homeowner, and live in it and know the 'effective rating', i.e. how much it cost's in €/c, then I submit that's the only arbiter that will hold sway....

tails_naf wrote: »

Will anyone be checking on this compliance, or proof of it?

also, how does the BER assessor know I put 125mm of insulation in the foundation - or that the walls have 200mm of insulation in the timber frame?

Good question. Experience on compliance with all manner of things mandated by the State, would not be good.......and no, he'll have now way of NDT your house, to find out.

sinnerboy wrote: »

When the house is eventually assessed the assesor will have to use defaults unless you have a profesional to certify the actual spec. Your BER rating may dissapoint you .

True, but as above, the utility bills are the real measure.

sinnerboy wrote: »

Yes. When you seek a re mortgage or seek to sell expect lots of checking. Money will not flow so freely in future.

Also - my own opinion now, one day carbon taxes will be levied against the not-paid-attention-to-too-much-for-now carbon part of the BER cert. A cert produced to defaults may not give full credit to your actual spec.

LOL -re-mortgage ?? I think that boat has long sailed into public memory......and as for carbon taxes-on-houses - not on your nelly. Anyone who has suffered the indignities of public infrastructure this winter, well, let's just say, I wouldn't ring their doorbell to collect such a tax.......

tails_naf

I just did a full assessment using DEAP, and my house comes out at A3 (63 w/m2, primary energy, pretty chuffed with that!)

If I cannot prove what is in my foundation, there is no way I'll get A3 from any 'official' cert.
I'd challenge any self-build, direct labour homeowner to get a cert for how much insulation was put in the foundation from the block/layer and labourer who did the work!

Aside:
One interesting thing I saw from DEAP - even with MHRV, according to DEAP I will loose 63 W/K due to ventillation. Compared with floor loss of 27 for my entire ground floor, 57 for my walls, etc (overall building element heat loss of 300, when it factors in 0.15u for workmanship.

d'Oracle

tails_naf wrote: »

I did a bit of googling (which I should have done first, sorry - but I was surprised!)

It's pretty clear from this that everyone building now, or who has built in the past 2 years need a BER

Also interesting to note that it only lasts for ten years!
So after ten years, do we all have to get new certs?

Sounds like a lucrative game to be in

Well you're not listening right then. There are a lot of people who invested in the BER setup and are not recovering their investment.

10 years is a LONG time to wait for repeat business.
Building fabric can degrade over 10 years for a variety of reasons.

d'Oracle

tails_naf wrote: »

I just did a full assessment using DEAP, and my house comes out at A3 (63 w/m2, primary energy, pretty chuffed with that!)

If I cannot prove what is in my foundation, there is no way I'll get A3 from any 'official' cert.
I'd challenge any self-build, direct labour homeowner to get a cert for how much insulation was put in the foundation from the block/layer and labourer who did the work!

Aside:
One interesting thing I saw from DEAP - even with MHRV, according to DEAP I will loose 63 W/K due to ventillation. Compared with floor loss of 27 for my entire ground floor, 57 for my walls, etc (overall building element heat loss of 300, when it factors in 0.15u for workmanship.

You need to have certification for most of the building as it will now be a BER for an existing Building. You probably won't get the A3 as a result.

If you intend on selling and using the BER rating as a selling point, hold on to your drawings and such cos then at least you can explain to prospective sellers why the (rather stringent) BER regulations are making your BER worse that you would expect. If you aren't planning on selling.....I'm not sure why you'd care what rating you get.

sinnerboy

galwaytt wrote: »

which brings us to a point: to whom ? If you're the homeowner, and live in it and know the 'effective rating', i.e. how much it cost's in €/c, then I submit that's the only arbiter that will hold sway.... the utility bills are the real measure.

And what if you are the potential purchaser or tenant ? The owners fuel bills don't really tell you a thing , for all you know they are content to put up with thermal discomfort. Bound to tell you aren't they ?

galwaytt wrote: »

LOL -re-mortgage ?? I think that boat has long sailed into public memory.........

Short term thinking there. This is my 3rd recession they all pass.

galwaytt wrote: »

..and as for carbon taxes-on-houses - not on your nelly. Anyone who has suffered the indignities of public infrastructure this winter, well, let's just say, I wouldn't ring their doorbell to collect such a tax..

Melted snow is soon forgotten. We face several years of EU monitored cuts and CO2 reduction targets. So lets wait and see.

But on the matter of certifications - even during the boom I personally saw a few cases where people failed or experienced protracted delays in raising finance or selling properties where certification could not be furnished.

Or ask yourself another question - what would you prefer to buy or rent

a) a house procured as the OP describes
b) a house where all certifications are in place ( including an AT test , which I assume the OP's brother does not have )

.

tails_naf

d'Oracle wrote: »

Well you're not listening right then. There are a lot of people who invested in the BER setup and are not recovering their investment.

10 years is a LONG time to wait for repeat business.
Building fabric can degrade over 10 years for a variety of reasons.

I understand that a lot of people jumped on the BER bandwagon, and that is why the investment is not being recovered.
However, the materials used in my building wont have changed over 10 years, and as the BER only looks at materials, the result now, or in 10 years won't be different.

The only thing that would change it is if I make a change to something, i.e. add an extension, replace my windows.


Also, I think it is highly flawed that even though I used approved building methods (direct labour), that I will get a poor BER because I've no cert for what is in the foundation. My plans from the architect don't spec levels of insulation (nor do they need to). The BER should be an accurate reflection of the house, and the fact that it cannot be because I didn't use a builder (who says he's not putting in 100mm of insulation and saying its 125?) - means I will be peanalised in my BER.
Another reason I will NOT be getting a BER done at all - waste of money if it does not reflect my actual rating and money spent to get an efficient house!

sinnerboy

tails_naf wrote: »

Another reason I will NOT be getting a BER done at all - waste of money if it does not reflect my actual rating and money spent to get an efficient house!

Your missing a fundamental point. No one gets a BER "for" themselves. It is provided principally for the benefit of the tenant / purchaser. And you will have no choice but to obtain one for them at some time .

d'Oracle

tails_naf wrote: »

I understand that a lot of people jumped on the BER bandwagon, and that is why the investment is not being recovered.
However, the materials used in my building wont have changed over 10 years, and as the BER only looks at materials, the result now, or in 10 years won't be different.

The only thing that would change it is if I make a change to something, i.e. add an extension, replace my windows.


Also, I think it is highly flawed that even though I used approved building methods (direct labour), that I will get a poor BER because I've no cert for what is in the foundation. My plans from the architect don't spec levels of insulation (nor do they need to). The BER should be an accurate reflection of the house, and the fact that it cannot be because I didn't use a builder (who says he's not putting in 100mm of insulation and saying its 125?) - means I will be peanalised in my BER.
Another reason I will NOT be getting a BER done at all - waste of money if it does not reflect my actual rating and money spent to get an efficient house!

Ok.

1) The BER does no only look at materials. If you think that, then you don't understand the process and I doubt your A3 rating is accurate.

2) The materials will not have changed insofar as they will be the same materials, but the character, quality may have. Fibrous insulation can settle. Which will not be reflected by successive BER's but can and will reflect in thermal comfort. But if someone were to extend it Would change the BER. Do you want a different set of rules cos you don't want to change your house in the next 10 years? How do you prove it hasn't been altered in the intervening 10 years....a BER audit maybe?

3) Plans from an architect should have insulation depths indicated and DO need to have such. There are minimum performance requirements set out in Part L of the building regulations. If these are not satisfied your building does not satisfy building regulations.

4) The BER is not a "look how eco-awesome my house is" cert as you seem to think it is. Its a rating to define how demonstrably energy efficient a house is. If you cannot prove what level of insulation is in your floor, then you cannot prove this to a renter or purchaser. People who build houses these days will get certifications (incidentally Architects know this stuff) of these measures from contractors for a variety of reasons, only one of which is BER.

5) You are not penalised in your BER. You can go on about how much a waste of money it would be if it didn't reflect your house, but that isn't BER's fault, its yours for not keeping proof of that which can only be proven by destructive testing. And none of this does anything to back up the tired, boring and thoroughly hibernian-miserable implication that BER is a racket.

zacchaeus

MungoMan wrote: »

My brother built a new house recently.

He didnt get an architect.
He saw a house he liked, photographed it, went to a civil engineering firm with the pictures, and asked for a house with a similar "look" scaled down to 300 sq/meters (the original house was 500 sq meters)

They designed the house, and it did have many of the design features of the original house, with some differences.

Then he employed a local builder who built and project managed the house (my brother had no day to day involvement in the day to day building of the house). The structural engineer inspected the build at intervals.

At no stage was there an architect involved, no BER assessor.

As regards building regulations, we hope they were all conformed to. Nobody gave him a certificate of compliance with the building regs, nor did he ask for one. My brother didnt even know that there are building regs.

He ended up with a very easy to heat house which he is very happy with,
it was a very traditional cavity wall build, nothing too challenging for the builders. To the untrained eye, the workmanship looks really good.

Is it stupid to build a house without an architect ? In what way would an architect make for a better house ?

Is a structural engineer competent to design a house ?

<SNIP> wrote: »

Of course anyone can design a house..but can they design a house well that is the question. When you start off to begin building work you say to yourself...I will get a qualified plumber ..I will get a qualified electrician but I won't invest time in money in the design of the house. To me as an Architect the design should be one of the most important aspects of planning a self build. You are after all going to be in that space everyday for the rest of your life. Not all Architects are expensive some of us just want to make a living but cannot compete with non-qualified people under cutting us all of the time."Copying" a house doesn't always work because each site is unique and must be orientated toward specific views and sunlight. Planning a house should take time and the design should be revisited over and over again until you are happy with it. After spending 5 years in college i wish now I had chosen a different career. I am unable to make a living any more. With the negative attitutude towards Architects in this country it is no wonder that over 50% of Architects in ireland are out of jobs. Should we just shut down all of the Architecture colleges if we don't need Architects? Ususally a cert of compliance will be required to get a mortgage drawdown at the end of a build so i dont know how you got away with that one. I hope I'm not sounding rude-i just wanted to put it out there from the perspective of an Architect how we feel and how important we regard our own work even if noone else thinks the "design" of a house is essential.

Where your thinking of saving a few pound on the Architect would not be very well advised when your consdiering giving the local builder drawings to price the work on what i can assume very basic issued for planning drawings.

Scenario here is where you could be giving your builder say 200k for lets say your contract documents consisting of basic planning (engineer) prepared drawings. Beware that these drawings will have very little information with regards specification and performance of the building. You as a client will possibly have the attitude "if it looks ight it is right" Bascially the builder could be subsituting / deviating on materials and products and saving himself alot more than you will with the elimiation of professional fees of an Architect.

I would recommend the use of an Architect who will prepared proper working drawings & specifcation, be it 10% of your overall cost but rest assured the builder will not get away with workmanship & materials that could be substandard that could have saved him 20% & you never knowing about it.

tails_naf

d'Oracle wrote: »

1) The BER does no only look at materials. If you think that, then you don't understand the process and I doubt your A3 rating is accurate.

Well I put everything about my house into DEAP last night and acheived the A3 rating. What I was trying to say is none of the info that DEAP looked for will be removed in the next 10 years, nor will the substantially change. if my boiler breaks, then I will get another, probably more efficient one, not less.
The majority contribuitors to the rating though are insulation levels, and again, these won't change substantially, and if they do it would only be to improve them.

d'Oracle wrote: »

2) The materials will not have changed insofar as they will be the same materials, but the character, quality may have. Fibrous insulation can settle. Which will not be reflected by successive BER's but can and will reflect in thermal comfort. But if someone were to extend it Would change the BER. Do you want a different set of rules cos you don't want to change your house in the next 10 years? How do you prove it hasn't been altered in the intervening 10 years....a BER audit maybe?

My point from above is that my rating will only improve for quantities measured by the BER, as it does not measure material degredation, I don't see my rating being any different in 10 years, and if it was different (due to a major change in the house) building regs would only improve the rating, so shouldn't it be up to me to get it re-rated if I want to use the BER as a selling point?

d'Oracle wrote: »

3) Plans from an architect should have insulation depths indicated and DO need to have such. There are minimum performance requirements set out in Part L of the building regulations. If these are not satisfied your building does not satisfy building regulations.

The architect of did spec min requirements, but this was not necessary, as we went beyond regs for most of the build in terms of energy efficiency. So using the plans the architect drew up demonstrates nothing more than saying the house was build in 2009 (to 2008 regs), as that's all the architects plans need to specify.

d'Oracle wrote: »

4) The BER is not a "look how eco-awesome my house is" cert as you seem to think it is. Its a rating to define how demonstrably energy efficient a house is. If you cannot prove what level of insulation is in your floor, then you cannot prove this to a renter or purchaser. People who build houses these days will get certifications (incidentally Architects know this stuff) of these measures from contractors for a variety of reasons, only one of which is BER.

I won't be renting or selling. If I ever do, then I would get a BER.

d'Oracle wrote: »

5) You are not penalised in your BER. You can go on about how much a waste of money it would be if it didn't reflect your house, but that isn't BER's fault, its yours for not keeping proof of that which can only be proven by destructive testing. And none of this does anything to back up the tired, boring and thoroughly hibernian-miserable implication that BER is a racket.

I didn't say BER is a racket, in fact I agree with the concept whole heartedly. Massive leaps in quality/efficiency have taken place in the last few years, and the BER is a great way of making this easily understandable to the consumer.
However I did say it is flawed - because it won't reflect my house, and therefore is no real use to me in terms of a selling point.

I think the BER can be flawed, and probably gamed.
like I said before, whats to stop a developer claiming x mm went in to a floor, when he used 3/4 x, it's he who signs off on that, I assume, and the BER assessor takes his word for it?
Would an assessor accept a receipt for the insulation I purchased for the ground floor (quantities would be reflected in the receipt) as proof?

d'Oracle

Glad you cleared all that up.
Your points make a lot more sense now.

I will say that an extension built with better performing walls can cause a decrease in rating. I have seen it happen. Because the increase in heatloss area of opaque elements coupled with the generally higher ratio of transparent elements to opaque elements (more windows in extensions) can actually lead to an increase in heat loss relative to increase in floor area.

Also, I reckon you will have a hard time finding anybody who will argue that the BER process isn't flawed. However certain assumptions have to be made in order to standardise it.
Hell DEAP isn't perfect, but it is very good.

As for the last point you made, the bottom line is this is why the "assume the worst" clause exists. The Builder can do that, if he lacks scruples.
You as homeowner are an interested party so you cannot certify your own stuff. You have to rely on the Builder, or project manager or signing official (be they Engineer or Architect) to be honest. Thats life. Everything can be gamed.
I mean you could be lying too. Recipts wouldn't be acceptable though.

Course the whole thing here is that if you are confident that you put everything into DEAP correctly, then you have your answer A3. Tis a Good house.

More on Topic: Architects are not Always required but are almost always a good idea.

JuniorB

tails naf ...
We got a prelim BER done and requested a checklist of what was required to get final cert. For floor insulation it was photos.
Any chance you took any photos during your build? You might have some with proof of the insulation in.

No6

tails_naf wrote: »

Well I put everything about my house into DEAP last night and acheived the A3 rating.

Did you do the training tails, DEAP has a few bits that if they are missed of entered incorrectly can give a very wierd result

Would an assessor accept a receipt for the insulation I purchased for the ground floor (quantities would be reflected in the receipt) as proof?

Yes a assessor would accecpt recipts for all of the concealed insulation. It is a form of proof that the assessor can use to verify the insulation used. You still however do need a BER cert published for your house.

caesarthechimp

tails_naf wrote: »

Also, I think it is highly flawed that even though I used approved building methods (direct labour), that I will get a poor BER because I've no cert for what is in the foundation.

If you have lots of photos and invoices showing the spec and linking to the correct address, that is acceptable evidence. The BER assessor needs to have enough evidence to cover his/her own ass. There is a lesson here for all self builders
So, did you receive training in Deap? it would be amazing to get a correct result on your first assessment, even with the training.

The law says anyone who "commissions" a build requires a BER, so in theory if it was entirely built by the owner, no BER needed.

MungoMan wrote: »

As regards the other regs, he didnt get any certificates of compliance with the building regulations from the structural engineer or builder.

Is it important that he gets them now (even though the build was finished 18 months ago) ?

Is it mandatory to get certificates of compliance ? Is proof needed (in case the department do an audit on his house). Or do they they do audits ?

Once you get the deposit back from planners, you can forget about all that. If the house gets sold in the future, it will be a second hand house. No buyer is interested in certs from obsolete building regs of the past.
The certs are about who gets sued if something is wrong or outside the regs. If the brother has no certs, then the buck stops with himself. The more responsibility a self builder takes on, the more money he saves, but at a cost in time and stress.

sinnerboy

Enrate wrote: »

No buyer is interested in certs from obsolete building regs of the past.

His bank or building society will be. Count on that.

caesarthechimp

I think they will be more interested in the valuation of the time, and the loan ratio to that.

tails_naf

JuniorB wrote: »

tails naf ...
We got a prelim BER done and requested a checklist of what was required to get final cert. For floor insulation it was photos.
Any chance you took any photos during your build? You might have some with proof of the insulation in.

I have photos showing the concrete screed being poured, but of course they only show the top of the insulation, proving there is SOME there, but no photo that would show the thickness. Perhaps that coupled with the receipts might be enough (hopefully!)

as for DEAP, no training, but I took time to read each box to be entered and looked it up in the manual that comes with it for the explanation, and entered details for items I had (such as MHRV efficiency, boiler efficiency). That said, there's every chance I made a pigs ear of it, but I would have expected to be in the A3-B1 ballpark anyway, given the spec of the build initially.

sydthebeat

lads, lets set aside this BER stuff... its dragging the thread off topic.

deal with the initial issue alone please.

d'Oracle

Should this be in the BER forum at all then?

sydthebeat

d'Oracle wrote: »

Should this be in the BER forum at all then?

from the point of view of informing the OP and anyone else that a BER is legally required... YES.

the squabbling over whether tails knows DEAP, or whats required as evidence based inputs, is off topic and should stop.