The privileged status of the elderly

looksee

irishh_bob wrote: »

as has been pointed out already , even someone never worked a day or paid a schilling in tax , they are entitled to 218 per week plus all the other perks , no group has more of a sense of entitlement than the elderly in this country , years of pampering by politicans and doting by the general public has produced a diva like generation of pensioners , i refuse to accept that a pensioner with no expense bar food is more vulnerable than a young couple with kids with all the present concerns of job security and mortgage default

God bless your innocence! At lease I hope it's innocence and not trolling. I know maybe 40 or 50 years into the future may seem like an endless amount of time and isn't relevant to you, but I promise it will come a lot faster than you can imagine. I hope you have made arrangements to be comfortable in your old age.

Rubik.

irishh_bob wrote: »

as has been pointed out already , even someone never worked a day or paid a schilling in tax , they are entitled to 218 per week plus all the other perks , no group has more of a sense of entitlement than the elderly in this country , years of pampering by politicans and doting by the general public has produced a diva like generation of pensioners , i refuse to accept that a pensioner with no expense bar food is more vulnerable than a young couple with kids with all the present concerns of job security and mortgage default

They are not pampered by international standards, in fact, the opposite is the case. How many of Ireland's 750,000 or so OAP's have never worked or paid tax? Let me guess - you don't know. Bit of a sweeping generalisation to attribute a sense of entitlement to 3/4's of a million people, don't you think? You seem to have a real issue with the elderly there bob.

omahaid

I partially agree with the OP. What I would like to see is a society where the sick and poor are adequately provided for and this is provided for by those who can afford it. Dunno why age comes into it. If you're a 70 year old millionaire then I'm scratching my head as to why you get free healthcare when families on low income don't get it if they are only slightly above the cut off point.

irishh_bob

Rubik. wrote: »

They are not pampered by international standards, in fact, the opposite is the case. How many of Ireland's 750,000 or so OAP's have never worked or paid tax? Let me guess - you don't know. Bit of a sweeping generalisation to attribute a sense of entitlement to 3/4's of a million people, don't you think? You seem to have a real issue with the elderly there bob.

not pampered :eek: , an OAP in this country recieves double what thier counterparts recieve in the uk , the gap is even larger for a couple

irishh_bob

omahaid wrote: »

I partially agree with the OP. What I would like to see is a society where the sick and poor are adequately provided for and this is provided for by those who can afford it. Dunno why age comes into it. If you're a 70 year old millionaire then I'm scratching my head as to why you get free healthcare when families on low income don't get it if they are only slightly above the cut off point.

in fairness , 75 year old millionaires dont get free medical cards , as long as you earn less than 699 euro per week or 1398 for a couple , your entitled to a medical card though

Rubik.

irishh_bob wrote: »

not pampered :eek: , an OAP in this country recieves double what thier counterparts recieve in the uk , the gap is even larger for a couple

You are comparing the second lowest to the lowest, what about the other 28 OECD countries? Again, they not pampered by international standards.

omahaid

irishh_bob wrote: »

in fairness , 75 year old millionaires dont get free medical cards , as long as you earn less than 699 euro per week or 1398 for a couple , your entitled to a medical card though

I stand corrected

"Between 2001 and 2008, everyone over aged 70 was entitled to a medical card without a means test. After that, a means test was introduced, with effect from January 2009."

irishh_bob

Rubik. wrote: »

You are comparing the second lowest to the lowest, what about the other 28 OECD countries? Again, they not pampered by international standards.

care to provide evidence that thier pensions are not very generous

irishh_bob

omahaid wrote: »

I stand corrected

"Between 2001 and 2008, everyone over aged 70 was entitled to a medical card without a means test. After that, a means test was introduced, with effect from January 2009."

no hassle , the threshold is still redicolously high IMO

Rubik.

irishh_bob wrote: »

care to provide evidence that thier pensions are not very generous

I already did.

Rubik. wrote: »

A recent OECD report compared how effectively state pension systems provide income during retirement to replace earnings which were the main source of income prior to retirement across the 30 OECD countries, Ireland came second last. A comparison between here and the UK is bound to come up in the thread - it came last. It also found that Ireland has the lowest state spending on pensions as a percentage of GDP in the OECD.

The international measure of poverty is having an income below half the median household income, in 2005 30% of Irish OAP's had incomes below this level. Only 3 OCED countries had more OAP's living in poverty.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/27/24/43126097.pdf

irishh_bob

Rubik. wrote: »

I already did.

the average industrial wage in ireland is 35 k per year , which means anyone on less than 17500 per year is technically ( by thier standards ) living in poverty , i dont believe that figure constitutes poverty , its a flawed premise , besides , the people who compile theese reports are agenda driven

Rubik.

irishh_bob wrote: »

the people who compile theese reports are agenda driven

A very convenient stance for someone who bases his opinions one nothing but his own opinions. What is the OECD's agenda in this instance then?

Ireland's pension replacement rate is 34.2%, which is the second lowest of the 30 OECD countries, the OECD average being 59%. Which means Irelands state pension is not generous by international standards.

Scanlas The 2nd

Fo Real wrote: »

I was getting a Bus Éireann bus along a popular commuter route today and was shocked to find that I was the only customer who actually paid for his ticket. I felt like such a sucker. The whole bottom deck was occupied by OAPs with their free travel passes and a couple of teenage mums with prams.

It got me thinking: Surely society should place more emphasis on giving financial support to young people starting out in life. They need the money more than the elderly. Old people's lives are bascially over. They are merely clinging onto life with their fingernails as the grim reaper is dragging them towards the grave.

Take the cuts announced in the last budget, for example. Almost every sector in society saw a cut in their income, including the disabled, but not the pensioners, who collect a nice €200 every week. An old couple would therefore rake in €400 between them to squander on lottery tickets, on top of their free travel, fuel expenses etc... Have you ever seen anyone under the age of 50 on RTÉ's Winning Streak gameshow? Every week it's grey haired gamblers winning thousands of euro and I'm thinking how that bit of money could completely change my life and that of my peers. Us young people are facing a future of sky high mortages and an employment landscape devoid of jobs. It's harder than ever to "begin life" which is why so many choose to continue in education for as long as possible and have no option but to live with their parents well into their 20's.

Logic would dictate that the dwindling numbers of youths will not be able to support the growing elderly population for much longer. This trend is unsustainable.

What are your thoughts on the privilged status of the elderly? Are they the most deserving candidates for all the benefits they receive?

How are their lives basically over? They are as much alive as anyone else. You are either alive or you are dead. All of us only ever have the present moment. There is no other time.

Freddie59

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

How are their lives basically over? They are as much alive as anyone else. You are either alive or you are dead. All of us only ever have the present moment. There is no other time.

I have to agree. I know a 93 year-old and you would be amazed how full of life she is. Well up on current events, etc. I'm the youngest of six (51) and all of my siblings are in their early/mid 60s and early 70s. I can assure you they're not 'waiting for the grim reaper to call'.

But on topic - it's a very hard one to call. We MUST look after our elderly. Who else will? And remember - ALL of us (please God) will be old someday. I'm sure you'll have a different perspective on it then.

But, like all sectors, there are DEFINITELY pensioners out there who are well-off, and can afford private Healthcare. It was nuts to give them ALL medical cards.

But the bus situation mentioned in the OP is not unique. This is ongoing, and is an offshoot of things like:

* "Disability" payments. There are people whose partners have very good, well-paid jobs who are on this payment. And will be on it until they're 65.
Many of these have been on it since their 30s and 40s. Their PARTNERS are also given a free bus pass. It's ludicrous. And many of these appear to be Lourdes cases. Prior to getting the books, they're nearly dead from whatever ails them.

But upon receiving it they lead a very active life, with no checks ever made again. Madness. I'd love to know the figures for those in receipt of this payment - and how much it's costing us every year. There was a Joe Duffy show special on it last year and one lady who rang in said that her husband had several brothers, all of whose wives went on disability payments after having kids. They've been on the payments for yonks.

* Abuse of disabled parking badges and spaces. Both my wife and I were staggered to witness a Garda Yaris dropping a young lady off outside the barracks this week. She practically leapt from the vehicle, and ran across the road to where she had parked her car (large saloon) in a disabled space.

She then proceeded to take a disabled sticker from the dashboard. We we incredulous, to say the least.

But, sadly, this is the type on nod and wink society we live in here in Ireland. And we wonder why we have a deficit on €18bn every year.

confusticated

irishh_bob wrote: »

not pampered :eek: , an OAP in this country recieves double what thier counterparts recieve in the uk , the gap is even larger for a couple

But wages are higher here too (and unemployment benefit I think, but I could be wrong on this), so younger people in Ireland are receiving more than their UK counterparts too.

OP, have you got grandparents? Do you actually know any OAPs? Most of the ones I know are definitely not living the high life on their pensions. The allowances you keep talking about don't cover everything - eg. the fuel allowance wouldn't cover all your fuel for the winter. This is especially true for some elderly people who aren't very mobile so have to keep the heating/fire going all day in the winter. I think anyone on a pension and managing to live independently on it is saving the state money (excepting millionaires, but that's hardly the vast majority) by not causing huge hospital bills etc.

tawnyowl

irishh_bob wrote: »

i have a problem with your starting point , half the average industrial wage in this country is 17500 euro , this to me does not constitute living in poverty , those research groups have no credibility

The median and mean (average) are not always the same.

CorkMan

I know an elderly man who is bringing in approxiametely €500-€550 every week. His OAP and pension from his job makes up this. He is still on the medical card.

He had his own 1.2 litre car which I estimate the insurance to be €300-€400 a year. He brings his niece out shopping once a week and charges her €10 everytime. which pays for the insurance. He is 85 ATM, but his job was easy work. He doesn't even need glasses or a hearing aid, can walk around the place no problem and has a grand head of hair still, i'm surprised it has gone grey. he will live for at least another 10 years IMO.

Approx 40 years ago he bought the house next door. It would have been worth €300,000 during the boom. He got it for £2000 punt in 1970, he had so much saved back then he payed by cash. He is bringing in €500-€550 every week yet gets every free benefit. I know he only spends the bare minimum cos he is mean as sin. He should be clamped down on.

irishh_bob

CorkMan wrote: »

I know an elderly man who is bringing in approxiametely €500-€550 every week. His OAP and pension from his job makes up this. He is still on the medical card.

He had his own 1.2 litre car which I estimate the insurance to be €300-€400 a year. He brings his niece out shopping once a week and charges her €10 everytime. which pays for the insurance. He is 85 ATM, but his job was easy work. He doesn't even need glasses or a hearing aid, can walk around the place no problem and has a grand head of hair still, i'm surprised it has gone grey. he will live for at least another 10 years IMO.

Approx 40 years ago he bought the house next door. It would have been worth €300,000 during the boom. He got it for £2000 punt in 1970, he had so much saved back then he payed by cash. He is bringing in €500-€550 every week yet gets every free benefit. I know he only spends the bare minimum cos he is mean as sin. He should be clamped down on.

you must not torpedo the illusion that all pensioners are peniless and shivering with the cold beside a bord na mona fire , with nothing but irelands eye for company , people need thier cliches

Fittle

CorkMan wrote: »

I know an elderly man who is bringing in approxiametely €500-€550 every week. His OAP and pension from his job makes up this. He is still on the medical card.

He had his own 1.2 litre car which I estimate the insurance to be €300-€400 a year. He brings his niece out shopping once a week and charges her €10 everytime. which pays for the insurance. He is 85 ATM, but his job was easy work. He doesn't even need glasses or a hearing aid, can walk around the place no problem and has a grand head of hair still, i'm surprised it has gone grey. he will live for at least another 10 years IMO.

Approx 40 years ago he bought the house next door. It would have been worth €300,000 during the boom. He got it for £2000 punt in 1970, he had so much saved back then he payed by cash. He is bringing in €500-€550 every week yet gets every free benefit. I know he only spends the bare minimum cos he is mean as sin. He should be clamped down on.

You make this sound like it's a bad thing, that he has a decent income and hasn't yet gone grey Surely that's something to be celebrated

More cliches about him 'getting every free benefit'. His income is means tested.

DrFroggies

irishh_bob wrote: »

years of pampering by politicans and doting by the general public has produced a diva like generation of pensioners

I know it's shocking isn't it...sure they're always hanging around the post offices snorting oatmeal off mirrors, posing in their Uggs and with their fake tans and faux blonde tresses - the auld boys are the worst with their pimped up hatchbacks and tinted windows...dey do be gobbin' all over the gaff too an' actin' like dey owen da kip!

Shocking stuff it is altogether :rolleyes:

Might give your argument a little more credence if you at least kept one foot in reality. Though as a fan of Monty Python i've enjoyed this glimpse into your world view...hang on...gotta go...there's some pensioners outside burning €50 notes in the faces of the disabled and recently unemployed...When will the madness end!!!!

DrFroggies

Whilst a review of all state payments (for better or worse) will be necessary as our economic situation contnues to change there is a very worrying thread of resentment running through some of these posts and a deliberate negative caricature of pensioners being painted by certain posters (i'm surprised the opening post was even allowed) I've noticed this trend in other threads and forums on boards.ie levelled at various vulrenable sections of society. Its regretable that ignorant voices are given wider platforms in turbulent times such as these.

The reality is this when it comes to state payments and benefits there will always be some who'll abuse the system. The answer is simply better policing of that system rather that allowing silly assumptions and generalities by silly people to gain popularity.

As for the ops notion of a utopian society where the state aren't required to support the elderly - well the situation without these state benefits would be maybe 3 generations of the same family living in the same house with the young firebrands of the family having to sacrifice their X-Box and alcopops and year in Oz in order to support the elderly members of their respective families.

...at least the bus situation wouldn't be a problem anymore as you probably wouldn't be able to afford bus-fare as granny's hip replacement won't pay for itself...so looks like you'd be walking to work and stuffing strips of washing up liquid bottles into the soles of your hole-worn shoes - sure it was good enough for people just a few years back.

If this is the generation the tiger created then i'm glad its dead.

irishh_bob

DrFroggies wrote: »

Whilst a review of all state payments (for better or worse) will be necessary as our economic situation contnues to change there is a very worrying thread of resentment running through some of these posts and a deliberate negative caricature of pensioners being painted by certain posters (i'm surprised the opening post was even allowed) I've noticed this trend in other threads and forums on boards.ie levelled at various vulrenable sections of society. Its regretable that ignorant voices are given wider platforms in turbulent times such as these.

The reality is this when it comes to state payments and benefits there will always be some who'll abuse the system. The answer is simply better policing of that system rather that allowing silly assumptions and generalities by silly people to gain popularity.

As for the ops notion of a utopian society where the state aren't required to support the elderly - well the situation without these state benefits would be maybe 3 generations of the same family living in the same house with the young firebrands of the family having to sacrifice their X-Box and alcopops and year in Oz in order to support the elderly members of their respective families.

...at least the bus situation wouldn't be a problem anymore as you probably wouldn't be able to afford bus-fare as granny's hip replacement won't pay for itself...so looks like you'd be walking to work and stuffing strips of washing up liquid bottles into the soles of your hole-worn shoes - sure it was good enough for people just a few years back.

If this is the generation the tiger created then i'm glad its dead.

you think its populist to claim pensioners are spoiled :eek:

99.9 % of people fully support maintaning current rates to pensioners , its about the one issue which all parties agree on and about the one issue which has universal support from the public

DrFroggies

irishh_bob wrote: »

you think its populist to claim pensioners are spoiled :eek:

Do I? What made you think i thought that?

irishh_bob wrote: »

99.9 % of people fully support maintaning current rates to pensioners , its about the one issue which all parties agree on and about the one issue which has universal support from the public

Well that's a good thing then isn't it and indicative of a still (and hopefully continuing) sophisticated and balanced society...lets hope it stays that way and the more convulsive vindictive voices remain marginal.

Not sure why you mentioned all that but good on ya?

irishh_bob

DrFroggies wrote: »

Do I? What made you think i thought that?



Well that's a good thing then isn't it and indicative of a still (and hopefully continuing) sophisticated and balanced society...lets hope it stays that way and the more convulsive vindictive voices remain marginal.

Not sure why you mentioned all that but good on ya?

nothing sophisticated or nuanced about believing that just because someone has managed to reach the age of 66 , that they should unconditionally recieve benefits ( regardless of wealth ) and that regardless of the broader economic conditions , those rates of benefit should continue unabated

DrFroggies

irishh_bob wrote: »

nothing sophisticated or nuanced about believing that just because someone has managed to reach the age of 66 , that they should unconditionally recieve benefits ( regardless of wealth ) and that regardless of the broader economic conditions , those rates of benefit should continue unabated

Doubt you'd find too many people who'd feel a millionaire - with a yacht, mansion on the bay (over looking Irelands Eye or Lambay for that matter) and any other of the trappings of real wealth - worthy of unconditional benefits just because they've reached pensionable age...let alone 99.9% of the population.

I think you know that too:rolleyes:

Hyperbole like that or 'pampered', 'sacred cow', 'pensioner divas' 'spoiled beyond belief' or any of those other juvenile references you use to caricature this section of society don't really help your argument here at all.

Same thing with the effort to portray the rest of society as naive or ignorant, happily playing along to delusional notions of decency where the issue of pensioners comes up - whilst one or two voices of reason desperately try to be heard as the warn ruefully of the dangers of this consumtive greedy demographic.

These personalised overly dramatic references trivialise the issue and smack of bitter blame games without showing any properly observed considerations or reasoned response to one of the many issues which will measure not only our country as an economic concern but our nation as a progressive, inclusive and intelligent society.

irishh_bob

DrFroggies wrote: »

Doubt you'd find too many people who'd feel a millionaire - with a yacht, mansion on the bay (over looking Irelands Eye or Lambay for that matter) and any other of the trappings of real wealth - worthy of unconditional benefits just because they've reached pensionable age...let alone 99.9% of the population.

I think you know that too:rolleyes:

Hyperbole like that or 'pampered', 'sacred cow', 'pensioner divas' 'spoiled beyond belief' or any of those other juvenile references you use to caricature this section of society don't really help your argument here at all.

Same thing with the effort to portray the rest of society as naive or ignorant, happily playing along to delusional notions of decency where the issue of pensioners comes up - whilst one or two voices of reason desperately try to be heard as the warn ruefully of the dangers of this consumtive greedy demographic.

These personalised overly dramatic references trivialise the issue and smack of bitter blame games without showing any properly observed considerations or reasoned response to one of the many issues which will measure not only our country as an economic concern but our nation as a progressive, inclusive and intelligent society.

wasnt refering to the tony o reillys of this world , more so the likes of retired public servants who can still qualify for a medical card while drawing down a pension of up to 699 quid per week or 1398 for a retired couple , that to me is unethical when you consider their are many many young couples in thier thirties with young familys who are not job secure yet have to fork out to go and visit thier GP

DrFroggies

irishh_bob wrote: »

wasnt refering to the tony o reillys of this world , more so the likes of retired public servants who can still qualify for a medical card while drawing down a pension of up to 699 quid per week or 1398 for a retired couple , that to me is unethical when you consider their are many many young couples in thier thirties with young familys who are not job secure yet have to fork out to go and visit thier GP

And in that context its a valid point - but applying that to all pensioners (as has been the trend) is blinkered to say the least.

Its unwise to generalise a whole social group based on one bracket just to serve a tenous argument.

As stated earlier a better argument would be to suggest better policing of social welfare payments (across the board...efficient means testing or similar) to ensure that those with currently no need of full state support don't receive it and those in need receive exactly what they're entitled to (in full) to the upmost extent and for as long as the state can provide it. And the most vulrenable should be the absolute last to lose or see reduction in those benefits...that includes pensioners and the disabled etc...and when at last reductions are absolutely neccessary the endevour should be to ensure they are as minimal in their impact on those vulrenable sections of society as possible.

As a matter of interest...what percentage of pensioners do you think are on that money?