New England Patriots thread (MOD WARNING - #4503)

BaronVon

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Did I say that they didn't? I was only talking about the difference Talib has made to our secondary and what having him might have done in our last two SB losses.

Didn't mean to imply that you did. I just want to give credit where it's due. For me, they've been the main positive this season, closing out games. And it's encouraging, cos Defences win championships!

Son Of A Vidic

At a time when we should have been celebrating a good win last night and especially against a team that are hard to beat at home. The Wilfork injury has really put a cloud of gloom over the day.:(

Son Of A Vidic

infacteh wrote: »

Didn't mean to imply that you did. I just want to give credit where it's due. For me, they've been the main positive this season, closing out games. And it's encouraging, cos Defences win championships!

That's sound, I incorrectly thought you took my earlier post about Talib the wrong way. Defense do win Championships, but how do we fill the massive hole Wilfork leaves?

kryogen

This season is so strange, 4-0, plenty of positives but some huge negatives too, none bigger then the loss of Wilfork for the season. He is so important to the team, as a player, as a leader, as a presence.

Arawn

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

That's sound, I incorrectly thought you took my earlier post about Talib the wrong way. Defense do win Championships, but how do we fill the massive hole Wilfork leaves?

not over the last few years, IIRC in the last 3-4 years the superbowl winning teams D wasn't top 10

Son Of A Vidic

Arawn wrote: »

not over the last few years, IIRC in the last 3-4 years the superbowl winning teams D wasn't top 10

Yes but they weren't rated 29th - 30th like our secondary was. And as the game tape shows, having no secondary cost us titles.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Yes but they weren't rated 29th - 30th like our secondary was. And as the game tape shows, having no secondary cost us titles.

I don't think our defense let us down in the two SB loses. Our offense stalled in both games. A fit Gronk would have led to two more SB rings for Tom.

This year we have two WR's that are devolving very well. Edelman is performing strongly. We have a good lineup of RB's that we can call on depending on the situation.
The Falcons game showed how this team is developing. That was a statement win.
And we have an elite TE, a potentially elite slot receiver, and a potentially elite player in Vereen to return towards the back end of the season.

I'm hoping that come playoffs, we have a variety of players that can have a impact on offense.

We aren't in the Bronco's or Seahawks league, but on the day we certainly have the ability to beat whoever we face.

Son Of A Vidic

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I don't think our defense let us down in the two SB loses. Our offense stalled in both games.

Our offense did stutter but they carried us to the SB. When we needed our defense to step up at the time, they didn't make the stops when it really matter.

munstermagic11 wrote: »

A fit Gronk would have led to two more SB rings for Tom.

No doubt that would have applied to our last SB appearance and maybe even last year also.

munstermagic11 wrote: »

This year we have two WR's that are devolving very well. Edelman is performing strongly. We have a good lineup of RB's that we can call on depending on the situation.
The Falcons game showed how this team is developing. That was a statement win.
And we have an elite TE, a potentially elite slot receiver, and a potentially elite player in Vereen to return towards the back end of the season.

I'm hoping that come playoffs, we have a variety of players that can have a impact on offense.

We aren't in the Bronco's or Seahawks league, but on the day we certainly have the ability to beat whoever we face.

We all know that the question mark hanging over Edelman in the past has been his durability. His talent is beyond question. Now if he can stay healthy for the season then I think that will be huge. Because it will show, that when we really needed him he stepped up big time. He's doing a fine job so far and long may it continue.

If we can reach the playoffs with a healthy Gronk, Amendola, Vereen, Edelman and our young WR's getting better from week to week. Throw in one of the best running back groups in the league. So if the pieces are in place when we need them, then we have a great chance.

The defense has really stepped up this year. But we need our starters to stay healthy. Losing Talib or Dennard would be a disaster. The front seven are going from strength to strength. Losing Wilfork is huge and hopefully we can find a solution to the massive gap he leaves. Hightower, Jones and Dennard are having a nice year two jumps and Ninkovich? Well he's the star of the show for me. Defensive football is about more than sack numbers and there is no player in the league, that gets through the sheer volume of work from game to game, than Ninkovich does.

Son Of A Vidic

Big Vince before his surgery today...





Here's hoping the big guy makes a speedy recovery.

BaronVon

This season so far, particularly the off-season drama, has an America's Game story line written all over it!

JaMarcus Hustle

I get the feeling that if there was an America's Game, the Hernandez drama would get little if no mention. Especially if a verdict has not been handed down come production time, and this could drag on for a long time yet.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Our offense did stutter but they carried us to the SB. When we needed our defense to step up at the time, they didn't make the stops when it really matter.

No doubt the offense was the reason for getting to the SB's, but they failed to perform both times when it counted.
Considering the expectations, the defense did a better job in each SB. I'd imagine we'd have taken scoring more than 14pts and 21pts prior to the kickoff on each occasion.

The Cinci game won't be easy. They will need to make up for last week, so I'd expect a tough game. But it's hard not to be optimistic with the Pats, and it could be a great chance to go to 5:0, and with the Dolphins hosting the Ravens, we could open up a 2 game lead in the Div.

Son Of A Vidic

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

I get the feeling that if there was an America's Game, the Hernandez drama would get little if no mention. Especially if a verdict has not been handed down come production time, and this could drag on for a long time yet.

Nearly 5 weeks into the season and it's a credit to the way the Patriots handled things from the outset. That there is no mention of said scumbag anymore.

Son Of A Vidic

Odin Brief Watchband wrote: »

No doubt the offense was the reason for getting to the SB's, but they failed to perform both times when it counted.
Considering the expectations, the defense did a better job in each SB. I'd imagine we'd have taken scoring more than 14pts and 21pts prior to the kickoff on each occasion.

The Giants won because their D happened to be on fire in both games. Defenses do win Championships and our defense failed to stop their game winning drives. I can't blame a misfiring offense for that shortcoming.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

The Giants won because their D happened to be on fire in both games. Defenses do win Championships and our defense failed to stop their game winning drives. I can't blame a misfiring offense for that shortcoming.

But we didn't have a good D either season (it sucked in 2011). The investment and the focus was all on the offense. Scoring just 14pts and then 17pts was worse than the D giving up 17pts and 21pts.

Good defenses win championships, and we didn't have it, but they did a good job in both SB's. The same can't be said of the no1 ranked offense.

When you don't have a good D, and you are reliant on the offense performing but they fail, then you lose SB's.

This year we seem to be reaping rewards for the investment in the defense.
The two first round picks, Hightower and Jones, are proving their worth. Talib and the continued emergence of Dennard have helped the secondary. Obtaining Kelly has turned out to be a very good move. Gregory has also done a very good job at times. And Ninko, well he's been the standout, fully deserving of the new contract.

I'm hoping that we can stay healthy on defense, because if the rookies continue to improve, Edelman stays fit, and Gronk-Danny-Vereen come back into the offense, then there is no reason that we can't go a long way into the playoffs. It'll require some some luck along the way, but there's reasons to be optimistic.

Son Of A Vidic

munstermagic11 wrote: »

But we didn't have a good D either season (it sucked in 2011). The investment and the focus was all on the offense. Scoring just 14pts and then 17pts was worse than the D giving up 17pts and 21pts.

Good defenses win championships, and we didn't have it, but they did a good job in both SB's. The same can't be said of the no1 ranked offense.

When you don't have a good D, and you are reliant on the offense performing but they fail, then you lose SB's.

We agree defenses win Championships and I'm off the opinion ours didn't do their job in either Superbowl. They performed better than expected in 2011, but they still fell short of stopping the key plays by the Giants and it cost us. the Giants averaged 24 points a game in 2011 and their final tally of 21 doesn't suggest to me, that we did much on defense to stop that scoring trend.

The failure on offense came specifically from the offensive line and their failure to protect Brady in both superbowls. In 2011 alone, Brady was seriously pressured or sacked on 14 of 41 passing plays (33%). On his final drive which came so close, he was pressure/sacked 5 times alone. There is no offense if Brady isn't protected and it was on the O line not the entire offense that let him down.

eagle eye

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

We agree defenses win Championships and I'm off the opinion ours didn't do their job in either Superbowl. They performed better than expected in 2011, but they still fell short of stopping the key plays by the Giants and it cost us. the Giants averaged 24 points a game in 2011 and their final tally of 21 doesn't suggest to me, that we did much on defense to stop that scoring trend.

The failure on offense came specifically from the offensive line and their failure to protect Brady in both superbowls. In 2011 alone, Brady was seriously pressured or sacked on 14 of 41 passing plays (33%). On his final drive which came so close, he was pressure/sacked 5 times alone. There is no offense if Brady isn't protected and it was on the O line not the entire offense that let him down.

You can talk about 2011 and discard the key injuries all you want but don't go blaming the D for 2007. We gave up only 17 points in that game and basically a freak play cost us where Manning somehow managed to stay upright in the pocket and hurl a ball downfield to a very, very average receiver who made one of the freakiest catches ever made in a Superbowl.
Our running game sucked balls that day.

You'll find when you are involved in sports that there are times where its just not your day and that was the case against the Giants in February 2008. That was a well played out gameplan by the Patriots but it just wasn't meant to be.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

the Giants averaged 24 points a game in 2011 and their final tally of 21 doesn't suggest to me, that we did much on defense to stop that scoring trend.

The Pats offense averaged over 30pts per game in 2011, and must have averaged more than that in 2007. Scoring 14pts and 17pts is a drop of approx 50% in production by the offense.
The team was setup to outscore opponents, rather than limit the opponents.
For me, the defense limited the Giants in both games to a score that we would have expected to surpassed, but the offense (which includes the OL) didn't perform.

Odin Brief Watchband

Odin Brief Watchband wrote: »

I don't think our defense let us down in the two SB loses. Our offense stalled in both games. A fit Gronk would have led to two more SB rings for Tom.

If your talking about gronk helping woth your Super Bowl apearences there no he would not have helpe in 2007 an it's silly saying ye would have won a sb if ye went out in the afc champ game or before 2007 being the perfect example to prove it you have no idea if ye would have flunked in a sb so catagorically stating ye woul have won it if tht didn't happen is silly

Additionally it was common knowledge that he could be injury prone when ye drafted him so lamenting his sudden injury seems mad if amendola goes down this year will you blame that on ye not winning a sb(if ye don't)

I also think its unfair to say your d should have stepped up if they performed that way all year that generally dictates there talent level the offense stalled that killed ye you can't put that on the d

j8wk2feszrnpao

Noel Jolly Fountain wrote: »

If your talking about gronk helping woth your Super Bowl apearences there no he would not have helpe in 2007 an it's silly saying ye would have won a sb if ye went out in the afc champ game or before 2007 being the perfect example to prove it you have no idea if ye would have flunked in a sb so catagorically stating ye woul have won it if tht didn't happen is silly

I wasn't talking about Gronk in 2007. I meant in 2011 and 2012. Have some sense please.

Also, is it to much to ask that you use spell checker?

TO.

Starting with 2007 pointing out the average points scored by our offense per game is pointless at best. The Pats averaged 10-14 points a game in garbage time. As the games were won by half time it forced errors by a lot of opponents offenses which helped out defense out. Teams were playing catchup

In 2007 the Pats biggest mistake was playing for a perfect regular season and fielding a full team against the Giants in the last game of the regular season. We showed them everything we had to offer. Now many will disagree with me but the Giants used that game against us.

Now add the above to the fact the Patriots have always struggled against very physical teams when it matters. Giants, 49ers, Seahawks, Jets and Ravens. Jets Ravens and Giants especially they put it to us when it mattered in the post season. Granted it took the Ravens a 2nd attempt in two seasons to do so but even the game in 2011 wasn't a walk in the park either in fact a missed field goal by the Ravens saved us.

Both Superbowls we were beat up by a physical team. Our offense in 2007 and 2011 were pressured by a Solid defense who pressured the fook out of Brady and got to him and they did a good job forcing his hand on who he could throw to. Also our defense had issues at the end of the game when it mattered. Stats aside 2 Superbowls and 2 insane throws and catches beat us. You can call it luck all you want but stop trying to deflect the responsibility. Simple fact is both sides of the ball were just average. And this is typical of the Pats when a Physical football team puts it to us when it matters.

Son Of A Vidic

eagle eye wrote: »

You can talk about 2011 and discard the key injuries all you want but don't go blaming the D for 2007. We gave up only 17 points in that game

We didn't limit the Giants scoring ability because they were not a high scoring teams in either of those SB seasons. They averaged 22 points a game in 2007 and 24 points a game in 2011. So how can we absolve the defense of our loss is beyond me. As I have already said, our offense carried us to both SB's. When the O line couldn't protect Brady, we needed the defense to step up and return the compliment to the Giants - they didn't.

I remember watching the game like it was yesterday.The gang I was with were totally despondent when they knew we had to stop the Giants on their final drive. To a man and woman, every Pats fan I watched the game with, had absolutely no faith in the defense making a stop when it really mattered. And predictably they didn't.

eagle eye wrote: »

basically a freak play cost us where Manning somehow managed to stay upright in the pocket and hurl a ball downfield to a very, very average receiver who made one of the freakiest catches ever made in a Superbowl.

We can blame that freak play all we want, but it really came down to the Giants D doing a fine job against us. Our O line could not protect Brady in 2007 or in 2011. There is no secret in beating the pats and there's only one way to do it - get to Brady. The Giants did it both times.

Now while some blame the entire offense, I only blame the offensive line. Any offense will misfire when a QB is tormented in the pocket. Then our D could not do the same job against the Giants and that's the simple fact. For me the O line and defense must share the blame in our losses.

eagle eye wrote: »

You'll find when you are involved in sports that there are times where its just not your day and that was the case against the Giants in February 2008. That was a well played out gameplan by the Patriots but it just wasn't meant to be.

You'll find when your involved with sports - I don't think you are deliberately trying to patronise there. But believe me I have over 30 years of competitive sport under my belt, between Wing Chung, Jiu-Jitsu, Rugby and American Football. So I think I'm pretty well versed in the ups and downs of competitive sport.

And I do agree with you that if it's your day then it's your day. I'm a big believer in destiny. I posted in the Ravens thread before they even got to the playoffs, that 2012 was their year of destiny and it was. So looking back on our losses, especially the 2007 one. It probably wasn't meant to be. But it still should not excuse our failures though.

eagle eye wrote: »

That was a well played out gameplan by the Patriots but it just wasn't meant to be.

A well played out game plan brings victory. Ours didn't and the second loss was particularly unforgivable. Yet again we knew the Giants has only one plan - stop Brady and again our O line failed him. Their defense achieved their primary aim, now that's a successful game plan. And yet again in a SB, we couldn't depend on our D to do a similar job on the Giants and they didn't.

j8wk2feszrnpao

TO. wrote: »

Simple fact is both sides of the ball were just average.

The offense in both years were putting up excellent numbers, so calling them average is not true.
And calling the 2001 defense average, that's being very kind :P

TO. wrote: »

And this is typical of the Pats when a Physical football team puts it to us when it matters.

That statement could cover most, if not all, of the teams in the NFL.
As much as we complain, we were in the SB in 2011, AFC game in 2012, and we're currently 4:0 (despite the off-season distractions).

TO.

Meant to post these pics a while back but it shows funny side to #12 and the rapport he has with the rookies. Thompkins and Dobson getting haircuts by him during rookie initiations

a_dobson3
1 month ago
Rookie Cutz! TB12 got me smh!

kthompkins7
1 month ago
Rookie haircut!! This Guy don't know how to use clippers lol

If you dont have instagram i encourage you to do so even if you dont use it yourself the NFL players and college players post up some funny stuff.

TO.

Odin Brief Watchband wrote: »

The offense in both years were putting up excellent numbers, so calling them average is not true.
And calling the 2001 defense average, that's being very kind :P

What are you talking about? I never mentioned 2001. And way to take something out of context I never said our offense was average over the season in both years. I clearly was talking about the bowl games themselves. If you are going to quote me at least do it right and read what I said properly.

That statement could cover most, if not all, of the teams in the NFL.
.

But we are not talking about every other NFL team now are we?

j8wk2feszrnpao

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

As I have already said, our offense carried us to both SB's. When the O line couldn't protect Brady, we needed the defense to step up and return the compliment to the Giants - they didn't.

See, the thing is, we all knew the defense wasn't very good. We saw that throughout the season in 2011 (and 2012).
The primary focus of the team was on the offense, I never felt that the defense was going to dig us out of a hole, so we needed the offense to fire as that's where the teams focus was placed.
As much as the defense was to blame for the game winning drive, the offense was also to blame for the drop (Tom's pass or Welkers drop) that could have killed the clock.

j8wk2feszrnpao

TO. wrote: »

What are you talking about? I never mentioned 2001. And way to take something out of context I never said our offense was average over the season in both years. I clearly was talking about the bowl games themselves. If you are going to quote me at least do it right and read what I said properly.



But we are not talking about every other NFL team now are we?

Jezz, obviously I meant 2011.
You're way too touchy.

TO.

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Jezz, obviously I meant 2011.
You're way too touchy.

Way too touchy? haha yeah alright but why don't you address where you got it wrong what I said about the offense. See if you dont want me getting "touchy" don't misquote me in future and take what I said out of context. As for the 2001 thing how would I know you meant 2011? I mean you could bring up 2001 if you want to considering our success back then. Honest mistake to make on both parts. and I apologise for thinking the 2001 was 2011.

j8wk2feszrnpao

TO. wrote: »

Way too touchy? haha yeah alright but why don't you address where you got it wrong what I said about the offense. See if you dont want me getting "touchy" don't misquote me in future and take what I said out of context. As for the 2001 thing how would I know you meant 2011? I mean you could bring up 2001 if you want to considering our success back then. Honest mistake to make on both parts. and I apologise for thinking the 2001 was 2011.

Clearly I misread your intention, apologies, I was wrong.

TO.

Odin Brief Watchband wrote: »

See, the thing is, we all knew the defense wasn't very good. We saw that throughout the season in 2011 (and 2012).
The primary focus of the team was on the offense, I never felt that the defense was going to dig us out of a hole, so we needed the offense to fire as that's where the teams focus was placed.
As much as the defense was to blame for the game winning drive, the offense was also to blame for the drop (Tom's pass or Welkers drop) that could have killed the clock.

Doesn't this actually back up what those who think our defense was the problem thinks?