New England Patriots thread (MOD WARNING - #4503)

Son Of A Vidic

I'm not going to worry about who we meet in the playoffs. I'll be just happy to settle for some good luck for a change and the playoffs would be a nice time for it to finally swing our way. One thing I'm sure of, this is one of the toughest, resilient, never-say-die, together bunch of brothers on a Pats team I can ever remember.

Son Of A Vidic

Adam Schefter reported earlier, that the Cleveland Browns have asked the Patriots for permission to speak to Josh for their Head Coaching position. I really don't want to see any change again. I'd be happy for Josh to stay until Brady and Bill retire and then maybe even bump him up to HC. Looking at it from his perspective, he's also had a very tough season dealing with all the loss of personnel. Yes at times he might have made a couple of strange calls, particularly earlier in the season. But he's done a fine job and maybe sometimes he does get overlooked in Tom & Bills shadow. I hope he stays and here's what Tom thinks.....

"Josh is the best offensive coach I could ever imagine. He's so prepared, he's so confident in what he does. He figures out a way each week to get us in the best position as players to win. I have so much respect for him and what he does for me, what he does for our team, he's just a great coach. He's got a lot of poise, he's got a lot of discipline. And I hope he doesn't go anywhere, I'd love for him to coach me the rest of my life. But that's just the way it is, he's one of my best friends and I love having him."

davyjose

I'd take McDaniel in heartbeat for OC, but I'm not sure he's headcoach material. Was very divisive in Denver. He'd be mad to take the Browns job. But he could really get the best out of Stafford if Detroit came knocking.

kryogen

Id like Josh to stay, but if the money is too good to turn down I imagine he will be gone again. We will get to see what he learned from his time at Denver then too. I thought he made quite a lot of mistakes there (to be expected maybe?) Don't see the Browns as being his big job either, I think he could get a shot at
the Pats if is prepared to wait until BB is gone, but who knows when that will be



Not for a very, very long time I hope!

Son Of A Vidic

davyjose wrote: »

I'd take McDaniel in heartbeat for OC, but I'm not sure he's headcoach material. Was very divisive in Denver. He'd be mad to take the Browns job. But he could really get the best out of Stafford if Detroit came knocking.

The Broncos can thank Josh for drafting half their talented WR corp in 2010. First time HC jobs don't always pan out as planned, just ask Belichick. I'd love if Josh was happy to bide his time and wait for Bill to retire. After all the turmoil we had this year, the last thing we need is a new OC starting in 2014.

kryogen

The organisation being what it is they obviously wont make it difficult for him if he says he wants to go, but I hope they do everything they can to keep him if an official approach is made

frostie500

Looks like I'm going to be in Boston in a couple of weeks for the Divisional Round of the playoffs! Anyone over there at the minute?

Son Of A Vidic

frostie500 wrote: »

Looks like I'm going to be in Boston in a couple of weeks for the Divisional Round of the playoffs! Anyone over there at the minute?

TO. and Hazys are over there, but they haven't been posting here lately. Still, worth sending a PM.

Hazys

Yup both myself and TO are over here...we were supposed to meet up for pint at a game sometime, havent yet....maybe we can do it during the Divisional Round?

Jolly Red Giant

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

The Broncos can thank Josh for drafting half their talented WR corp in 2010. First time HC jobs don't always pan out as planned, just ask Belichick. I'd love if Josh was happy to bide his time and wait for Bill to retire. After all the turmoil we had this year, the last thing we need is a new OC starting in 2014.

McDaniels was a disaster as HC of the Broncos - he nearly destroyed the franchise. He was completely dysfunctional in his approach and proved that he had absolutely man-management skills. Just because he has a good offensive brain does not mean he can be a HC. The fact that the Browns are considering him for the HC job says more about the Browns than McDaniels.

As for the drafting by McDaniels - his two drafts were pretty much a disaster. He wasted the draft picks he got for Cutler (after making an absolutely bags of the situation) - he drafted donkeys in high rounds that would have gone for low draft picks or even undrafted - and he wasted a 1st rounder on Tebow. He even took a major gamble on Thomas who was suffering a serious ankle injury and was expect (at best) to go at the bottom of the 2nd. Of the 19 players he drafted in two years - only five are still on the roster and only one (Thomas) has lived up to his draft status. Of the five remaining it is possible (even likely) that only Thomas will still be on the roster next season.

eagle eye

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

McDaniels was a disaster as HC of the Broncos - he nearly destroyed the franchise. He was completely dysfunctional in his approach and proved that he had absolutely man-management skills. Just because he has a good offensive brain does not mean he can be a HC. The fact that the Browns are considering him for the HC job says more about the Browns than McDaniels.

As for the drafting by McDaniels - his two drafts were pretty much a disaster. He wasted the draft picks he got for Cutler (after making an absolutely bags of the situation) - he drafted donkeys in high rounds that would have gone for low draft picks or even undrafted - and he wasted a 1st rounder on Tebow. He even took a major gamble on Thomas who was suffering a serious ankle injury and was expect (at best) to go at the bottom of the 2nd. Of the 19 players he drafted in two years - only five are still on the roster and only one (Thomas) has lived up to his draft status. Of the five remaining it is possible (even likely) that only Thomas will still be on the roster next season.

I love the way you don't want to give him credit for Thomas but take it out on him for Tebow. How many playoff games have you won in the last five years? How were the QBs in those starts?

You have Thomas, Decker, Moreno, Ayers, Walton and Beadles from his draft classes who are all starters. Thats pretty impressive to be fair.

Anyways this is the Patriots thread so I won't continue with this, just posted to make that first point. I'm sure there are many who thought Pete Carroll would not make it as an NFL coach after his first stint with the Patriots but I think he has shown second time around that he is will up to the job. You can't go by one short stay as a head coach to make a decisive comment about whether a guy has it or not. There were too many people interested in him a couple of years ago for him to be as bad as you try and make out.

TO.

Hazys wrote: »

Yup both myself and TO are over here...we were supposed to meet up for pint at a game sometime, havent yet....maybe we can do it during the Divisional Round?

So busy these days. Let me know if you guys decide to meet up. Im in North Easton so I would have to make a trip into Boston. I did have a place to stay in the city but that option is now gone for the month of January. Either way let me know the plans and will see if I can swing it that night for game.

Jolly Red Giant

eagle eye wrote: »

Anyways this is the Patriots thread so I won't continue with this, just posted to make that first point.

Its a Pats thread where a Pats fan raised the issue of McD's drafts with the Broncos. And if here were to become HC with the Browns he would have to draft again.

eagle eye wrote: »

I love the way you don't want to give him credit for Thomas

The two best players out of the 2010 draft were Thomas and Decker - both who came into the draft with major question marks over their ability due to injuries and both were a major reach (particularly Thomas) where McDaniels took them in the 1st and 3rd.

eagle eye wrote: »

but take it out on him for Tebow.

McDaniels spent a first round pick on Tebow where everyone else (including Jax) were, at best, considering a third. It was a waste of a pick and it was a waste from the moment of the pick.

eagle eye wrote: »

How many playoff games have you won in the last five years? How were the QBs in those starts?

If Tebow was so good then why did the Pats cut him in TC and why is he now out of football?

It has taken the Broncos four years to repair the damage done by McDaniels to the Broncos roster. Not alone did he draft badly - he dished out crazy contracts to average players that the Broncos are only now finally getting off the books.

eagle eye wrote: »

You have Thomas, Decker, Moreno, Ayers, Walton and Beadles from his draft classes who are all starters. Thats pretty impressive to be fair.

McDaniels did all the wheeling and dealing that BB is known for in the draft except he made a chaotic mess of it.

In 2010 Denver had two first round picks and spent them on a badly injured Thomas and Tebow. Thomas would have been available in the second round and Tebow (if he really wanted him) in the third.
Of the rest - Beadles is at best an average OG and will be gone from Denver after this season (and no one will miss him). JD Walton has already been cut. And let's not forget he drafted Parrish Cox with all his inappropriate baggage.

In 2009 Denver draft was significantly worse - two first rounders that went on Moreno and Ayers. If you draft a RB at 12 then he'd better be a franchise back. Moreno has been injury prone, fumble prone and has taken four years to become servicable. He will be gone this off-season and Ball will become the workhorse. Ayers is at best a rotational guy on the DL and like Moreno will be gone (or come back for low money as a back-up). However, what was worse was that McDaniels traded a first round pick in 2010 to move up to draft Smith in the second (a player he could have got in the fifth round) - and a player that is now out of football. He then went on to spend a second on Richard Quinn who everyone expected to go undrafted.

Out of five picks in the first round over the two years, by the begining of next season there will be one player left on the roster.

What is worse is that - as a result of all the wheeling and dealing - the following players were selected at the picks where Denver traded away in these two drafts.
Pittsburgh - Mike Wallace
Pats - Aaron Hernandez (although it is no longer as bad as it seemed at the time)
Philly - Brandon Graham
49ers - Anthony Davis
Bears - Johnny Knox (who up to his injury was sensational)
Seattle - Earl Thomas
Dallas - Dez Bryant
Ravens - Dennis Pitta
Seattle - KB Wright

In contrast - from the 1st and 2 2nds in 2011 the Broncos ended up with three top starters on the team (and also got Julius Thomas)

eagle eye wrote: »

You can't go by one short stay as a head coach to make a decisive comment about whether a guy has it or not. There were too many people interested in him a couple of years ago for him to be as bad as you try and make out.

Carroll and McDaniels are like comparing chalk and cheese (and lets not talk about all the other ex-Pats assistants who didn't produce as HCs). McDaniels was the new hot-shot kid, who had all the new ideas and was going to make the 'Patriots Way' work when it never had outside of NE. It was hardly surprising that Denver jumped at him and others were interested, but it was a monumental mistake. All credit to John Elway and John fox for repairing the damage so quickly.

After seeing him in action for two years in Denver and the destruction he wrought I would argue that McDaniels is not HC material and will never make it as a HC. All the traits he showed in Denver are traits that would mitigate against him being a good HC and they are traits that tend not to change.

As I said earlier - the fact that the Browns are going after him says more about the Browns than it does about McDaniels. The Browns are a dysfunctional franchise and seem to be running around like a headless chicken. McDaniels is probably big-headed enough to believe that he can turn things around in Cleveland - but it would be a disaster made in hell for both of them.

Son Of A Vidic

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

McDaniels was a disaster as HC of the Broncos - he nearly destroyed the franchise.

Wtf? Seriously dude calm down there. Destroyed the franchise? I nominate that for overstatement of the year. You think Decker and Thomas were a serious reach in the draft? Well McDaniel's obviously didn't and you can thank him for that because look how they turned out. The 2013 draft was the first time we drafted half decent young WR's since Deion Branch in 2002. Coaches make good and bad draft picks all the time so what's the big deal/all hate for?

TO.

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Its a Pats thread where a Pats fan raised the issue of McD's drafts with the Broncos. And if here were to become HC with the Browns he would have to draft again.

Weren't you told to stay out of this thread?

The two best players out of the 2010 draft were Thomas and Decker - both who came into the draft with major question marks over their ability due to injuries and both were a major reach (particularly Thomas) where McDaniels took them in the 1st and 3rd.

Thomas and Decker turned out to be cracking players so he got something right. Plenty of players in any draft have questions over them but their ability out weighs their issues. Every coach takes risks on about every pick.

McDaniels spent a first round pick on Tebow where everyone else (including Jax) were, at best, considering a third. It was a waste of a pick and it was a waste from the moment of the pick.

Actually on Draft day many believed he was going to go the top of the 2nd.

If Tebow was so good then why did the Pats cut him in TC and why is he now out of football?

Oh I don't know maybe a guy called Tom Brady. They also have Mallett who is working in the Patriots system since 2011. So taking Tebow was always going to be nothing other than seeing if he could catch up quickly and challenge Mallett.

It has taken the Broncos four years to repair the damage done by McDaniels to the Broncos roster. Not alone did he draft badly - he dished out crazy contracts to average players that the Broncos are only now finally getting off the books.

I actually laughed at this. You make it sound like a HC ruined a whole organisation. Sh1t happens quickly blame the HC even though there is also a GM and Owner overseeing a HC doesn't fook up their team. But hey easy to blame the HC right?

McDaniels did all the wheeling and dealing that BB is known for in the draft except he made a chaotic mess of it.

Of the 32 HC in the league you can guarantee over half of them try wheel and deal. Whether they pull the trigger on it is another thing. NFL HC wheeling dealing shocker.

In 2010 Denver had two first round picks and spent them on a badly injured Thomas and Tebow. Thomas would have been available in the second round and Tebow (if he really wanted him) in the third.
Of the rest - Beadles is at best an average OG and will be gone from Denver after this season (and no one will miss him). JD Walton has already been cut. And let's not forget he drafted Parrish Cox with all his inappropriate baggage.

Yet again bad mouthing a gamble made that paid off. The fact of the matter is Thomas was projected as a late first round pick or early second round depending on where other picks were made and had Denver not pulled the trigger on him they would not have gotten him in the 2nd round. The biggest deal of that draft was the fact he went ahead of Bryant.

rabble rabble rabble

Not going to bother with the rest as you are repeating yourself at this point. This is the Pats thread many of us could careless of the Broncos and how bad you feel McDaniels ruined them :rolleyes:

As I said earlier - the fact that the Browns are going after him says more about the Browns than it does about McDaniels. The Browns are a dysfunctional franchise and seem to be running around like a headless chicken. McDaniels is probably big-headed enough to believe that he can turn things around in Cleveland - but it would be a disaster made in hell for both of them.

I don't believe McDaniels is HC material right now but I will laugh my ass off if he turns the Browns around. 2nd chance as a HC could be a good one. Took a fair few coaches over the years the come good their 2nd time round.

frostie500

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Its a Pats thread where a Pats fan raised the issue of McD's drafts with the Broncos. And if here were to become HC with the Browns he would have to draft again.

The two best players out of the 2010 draft were Thomas and Decker - both who came into the draft with major question marks over their ability due to injuries and both were a major reach (particularly Thomas) where McDaniels took them in the 1st and 3rd.

I don't think anyone is going to say that McDaniels was a successful coach in Denver but his drafts have been important in giving the Broncos some of their key players. The fact has always been that drafting is a lottery...some people are just luckier than others. McDaniels was poor at the Broncos because he traded for different players that ultimately were of marginal value tot he franchise but he did also pick some studs. The Tebow trade was always going to be the hallmark of his tenure at Denver. If it worked he was golden but ultimately it went the way that many of us at the time saw it-a major reach.

To say that Thomas and Decker were reaches is to stretch it though in my view. I think that Thomas can be viewed as a bit of a stretch given that the Cowboys drafted Dez Bryant two picks later. Bryant has more TDs and yards but also a lot more catches because the Broncos also have to get the ball to Decker but in four years to have two young WRs with combined stats of 6500 yards and 59 TDs I think it's fair to say that they were hardly reaches. I'll admit that most had Thomas as the number two receiver on their draft boards but even with the benefit of hindsight there werent many people saying that either Thomas or Decker was a reach.

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

It has taken the Broncos four years to repair the damage done by McDaniels to the Broncos roster. Not alone did he draft badly - he dished out crazy contracts to average players that the Broncos are only now finally getting off the books.

I don't really agree with this statement either because the reason that the Broncos are relevant comes down to one reason and he wears number 18...In the NFL you're only as good as your QB and a great QB can cover up a lot of deficiencies elsewhere. I do think that the Broncos are a fantastic team at the minute but I also think that if you had plugged Manning into the McDaniels teams that he would have grinded out 11 wins a year with them. The

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

In 2009 Denver draft was significantly worse - two first rounders that went on Moreno and Ayers. If you draft a RB at 12 then he'd better be a franchise back. Moreno has been injury prone, fumble prone and has taken four years to become servicable. He will be gone this off-season and Ball will become the workhorse. Ayers is at best a rotational guy on the DL and like Moreno will be gone (or come back for low money as a back-up). However, what was worse was that McDaniels traded a first round pick in 2010 to move up to draft Smith in the second (a player he could have got in the fifth round) - and a player that is now out of football. He then went on to spend a second on Richard Quinn who everyone expected to go undrafted.

Whole heartidly agree about this draft class however! Shambles of a draft with Moreno only starting to look like a decent player this year and he'll be gone after the season

Out of five picks in the first round over the two years, by the begining of next season there will be one player left on the roster.

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

What is worse is that - as a result of all the wheeling and dealing - the following players were selected at the picks where Denver traded away in these two drafts.
Pittsburgh - Mike Wallace
Pats - Aaron Hernandez (although it is no longer as bad as it seemed at the time)
Philly - Brandon Graham
49ers - Anthony Davis
Bears - Johnny Knox (who up to his injury was sensational)
Seattle - Earl Thomas
Dallas - Dez Bryant
Ravens - Dennis Pitta
Seattle - KB Wright

Looking at these names though is there anyone there that you would really give up a piece of the current team for? I think that I'd take Earl Thomas (he was one of my favourite players in that class along with Berry but would you take Byrant, Knox, Wallace or Hernandez (we'll leave it to his on the field performance!) over having Decker and Thomas as your primary pass catchers? Im not sure that I would.

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

After seeing him in action for two years in Denver and the destruction he wrought I would argue that McDaniels is not HC material and will never make it as a HC. All the traits he showed in Denver are traits that would mitigate against him being a good HC and they are traits that tend not to change.

As I said earlier - the fact that the Browns are going after him says more about the Browns than it does about McDaniels. The Browns are a dysfunctional franchise and seem to be running around like a headless chicken. McDaniels is probably big-headed enough to believe that he can turn things around in Cleveland - but it would be a disaster made in hell for both of them.

I do agree that I wouldn't want McDaniels taking charge of my team. I don't think that he's a good Head Coach and I do think that he's best suited to being a co-ordinator in the NFL. His time in Denver was a disaster in many ways. He tried to keep the press at arms length and didnt do a lot to build up a positive vibe around the team. The Browns are in a bad enough situation that the last thing that they need to do is hire a coach who has major question marks hanging over his head.

I've defended two of his draft choices because you singled them out but I've posted about McDaniels in the thread for when he was fired and my opinion of him hasnt changed. I know that he was very young when he had the job in Denver but I'd question how much he matured by going back to the comforts of New England. It's very easy to look like a genius when you've got Tom Brady throwing the ball.

me89

Collie re-signed, but the injury curse continues Boyce is gone to IR.

Jolly Red Giant

We agree a lot more than we disagree - but I will take two points up

frostie500 wrote: »

I don't really agree with this statement either because the reason that the Broncos are relevant comes down to one reason and he wears number 18...In the NFL you're only as good as your QB and a great QB can cover up a lot of deficiencies elsewhere. I do think that the Broncos are a fantastic team at the minute but I also think that if you had plugged Manning into the McDaniels teams that he would have grinded out 11 wins a year with them.

Of course the QB is vital - the problem is that if McDaniels was the HC when Manning became available Manning would now be playing for the Titans or the 49ers. Manning would never have come to Denver with McDaniels in charge.

frostie500 wrote: »

I've defended two of his draft choices because you singled them out

The two players that McDaniels drafted that people point to are D. Thomas and Decker.

Take Thomas first - Remember that McDaniels had just traded a big powerful and star WR receiver in Brandon Marshall. He moved on a proven WR and drafted a WR with serious question marks. Prior to the draft Thomas played in an option offence in college that never threw the ball. He had the attributes to be a big WR but had not played in a passing offence so no one knew how he would perform. Furthermore he was suffering from a serious foot injury at the time of the draft and there were question marks over whether it would ever heal properly. For the first two seasons he was like glass going down injured with regularity. And despite this McDaniels put him in as a returner on special teams (something you don't do with a first round draft pick plagued by injuries). It wasn't until Manning arrived that Thomas was able to put together some decent games.

Now Thomas is a seriously good WR - but he is not elite. His best attribute is YAC and with Manning throwing the ball he has major opportunity for that. However, he can be stopped. Teams that jam him at the LOS and play physical against him can blot him out of a game. It maybe because of his previous injury history but many Broncos fans believe that he plays soft and can be out-muscled by physical DBs.

Decker is a different story. He is not as good as his numbers or his spectacular catches would indicate. He can disappear for games at a time. At the draft he was suffering from a Lisfranc inury - an injury that a WR has difficulty recovering from. Again, he was almost non-existant in his first season, played sparingly until Thomas got hurt in his second and then made progress with Manning. I expect Decker to be gone. He will command a salary that the Broncos FO know he is not worth and, despite claims to the contrary, I suspect the FO are far from happy that he is messing around with this reality TV show with his celeb wife. Decker will go and be replaced by a more than adequate FA for less money.

So both WRs had serious question marks over them when drafted because of injuries - Thomas had shown flashes as a WR in an option offence that didn't pass the ball, didn't know anything about a pro-offence and was like glass for two seasons. Decker was (and is) ordinary and appears more interested in the celeb lifestyle than playing football. Thomas will still be in Denver because he has another year on his rookie contract. And remember McDaniels had Brandon Marshall and traded him for 2 2nd round picks.

Now McDaniels seriously reached for both players in the draft and it was pure luck with two years of patience by the Broncos organisation that led to Thomas being as good as he is and Decker being servicable - and Manning is capable of making any WR better.

As for your comment about the draft being all about luck - while there is a degree of luck involved, good teams draft good players and don't go for flash or hype (like the Raiders) over substance. The Pats have a reputation for drafting good players and it is one of the reasons (with BB and Brady) that they have remained competitive for so long. Denver has shown over the past three of seasons that when you don't do daft things on draft day you can rebuild a solid roster with good players.

kryogen

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

McDaniels was a disaster as HC of the Broncos - he nearly destroyed the franchise. He was completely dysfunctional in his approach and proved that he had absolutely man-management skills. Just because he has a good offensive brain does not mean he can be a HC. The fact that the Browns are considering him for the HC job says more about the Browns than McDaniels.

As for the drafting by McDaniels - his two drafts were pretty much a disaster. He wasted the draft picks he got for Cutler (after making an absolutely bags of the situation) - he drafted donkeys in high rounds that would have gone for low draft picks or even undrafted - and he wasted a 1st rounder on Tebow. He even took a major gamble on Thomas who was suffering a serious ankle injury and was expect (at best) to go at the bottom of the 2nd. Of the 19 players he drafted in two years - only five are still on the roster and only one (Thomas) has lived up to his draft status. Of the five remaining it is possible (even likely) that only Thomas will still be on the roster next season.

JRG in not wanting to say anything positive about a Patriot shocker!

Son Of A Vidic

Anybody that knows their football can just look at Belichicks first stint as a Head Coach. Didn't quite work out as planned did it. But now look at what he has achieved in the era of free agency. A severe handicap past coaches didn't have to deal with. Not only is he walking into the HOF, but he is my GOAT. So to write off McDaniel's is not only ridiculous, it also reveals a naive lack of historical football knowledge.

Jolly Red Giant

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

So to write off McDaniel's is not only ridiculous, it also reveals a naive lack of historical football knowledge.

Yea - yea - constant put down - I disagree with you so I have no football knowledge.

McDaniels has all of the negative traits of BB and none of the positive ones. He has demonstrated zero ability to learn from his mistakes. He spent two years at Denver compounding mistake after mistake and digging a deeper hole for himself (and the team).

I expect him to jump at an offer of a HC job and I expect him to fail again.

Time will tell which of us has the 'football knowledge' in relation of McDaniels.

TO.

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Yea - yea - constant put down - I disagree with you so I have no football knowledge.

McDaniels has all of the negative traits of BB and none of the positive ones. He has demonstrated zero ability to learn from his mistakes. He spent two years at Denver compounding mistake after mistake and digging a deeper hole for himself (and the team).

I expect him to jump at an offer of a HC job and I expect him to fail again.

Time will tell which of us has the 'football knowledge' in relation of McDaniels.

Im quoting this post as this is one of the funniest things I have read in a long time especially that last line in bold. Sad part is your bias opinion of McDaniels is clearly clouding your judgement of him and writing him off. I really hope he succeeds at the Browns as a Head Coach now just to shut you up.

And before you think I am defending him as a head coach I will repeat my stance on him. I do not think he is HC material right now. He is better served as a coordinator. He could use some more years in the game as a Coord before making the jump again.

Oh and you have made your point and no one in here cares about your hatred for the Patriots or Josh McDaniels or the Broncos so do us all a favour eh?

Son Of A Vidic

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Yea - yea - constant put down - I disagree with you so I have no football knowledge.

Constant? Well first you made an incredibly ridiculous comment about Josh nearly destroying the Broncos. Then you seem to write him off for all future HC roles. I suggest you go and do some research for yourself. Because the NFL has had quite a few coaches during its history, that failed in their initial posts. You can disagree with me all you want, that is to be expected. But you can't disagree with precedent.

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

McDaniels has all of the negative traits of BB and none of the positive ones.

I see you're bile is spreading. So it's now Belichicks turn, damn him and his negative traits. Yet you can be sure that every franchise owner in Football, would have given their right arm to have Belichick at the helm for the last decade.

frostie500

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I see you're bile is spreading. So it's now Belichicks turn, damn him and his negative traits. Yet you can be sure that every franchise owner in Football, would have given their right arm to have Belichick at the helm for the last decade.

I don't think that JRG is saying anything like that. Belichick, like all coaches int he league, has negatives (I'd go with his secrecy and inability to draft in the secondary as two of my major marks against him) but he has lots of positives and obviously JRG is saying that. What he was saying was that in McDanniel's time with the Broncos he showed the same closed shop mentality of BB but none of the positive results on the field. I don't think it's a stretch to agree with him on that one.

Can McDaniels change over time? Of course he can but I definitely think that staying with the Pats isnt going to make him grow. When you've got a QB like Brady and HC like Belichick it makes things much easier and more comfortable for a co-ordinator. Personally I'd like to see McDaniels move to another team as co-ordinator and then we could see if he's grown. He hasnt done enough, for me, to warrant consideration for another HC job.

Masked Man

How is secrecy a negative?

frostie500

Masked Man wrote: »

How is secrecy a negative?

From the outside it's certainly a negative! For how many years has Brady been listed as questionable? Little things like that piss me off with Bill. I don't think it makes a lick of diifference to his ability to coach his team but it does make it somewhat frustrating as a fan of the game. Add in spygate (not trying to start that ball rolling again by the way Pats fans!) and there's a few clear examples of his negative traits. All things considered I'd have loved to have him coaching the Eagles for the last 15 years but I can't complain too much with having Andy Reid either!

Jolly Red Giant

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Constant?

CM - you may not be aware of it but practically every time someone disagrees with you (or makes criticisms of the Pats) and is willing to challenge you on it, you engage in a put down.

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Well first you made an incredibly ridiculous comment about Josh nearly destroying the Broncos.

Clearly you know little about McDaniels time in Denver and the damage he did. He took a proud franchise with with a proud history and high standing in the NFL world and reduced it to a topic of derision and ridicule. He decimated the roster, traded out some of the teams best players, made a bags of the draft, signed players to damaging team contracts etc. But more than that, he created a culture of fear and intimidation in the locker-room, ridiculing players and blaming everyone and everything of all the ills of the world even when things were apparently going well. I trusted Bowlen's judgement when he appointed McDaniels, but it was clear within weeks that even Bowlen regretted his decision. It is unfortunate that he took two years to correct his error. He continued to hope that McDaniels would mature and learn and use his talents in a positive way. The final straw was the fact that (at the very least) McDaniels saw nothing wrong with his cameraman filming 49ers walk through practice a couple of days before they played the Broncos. The reputation of the Broncos was in the toilet after that and Bowlen had no option but to get rid of him.

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Then you seem to write him off for all future HC roles.

Yes I do

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I suggest you go and do some research for yourself. Because the NFL has had quite a few coaches during its history, that failed in their initial posts. You can disagree with me all you want, that is to be expected. But you can't disagree with precedent.

Then I suggest that you also do some research. Yes - some coaches, BB included, have bounced back from initial failures to become good coaches. The best coaches learn from past mistakes. However, there are just as many, if not more, coaches who have failed not just once but two or three times and there are other coaches who have made such a bags of things the first time around that they are never given a second opportunity. Not every coach who fails the first time, succeeds subsequently - some just cannot cut it.

In my opinion McDaniels will fall into this category. He has in the past proved utterly incapable of learning from past mistakes. The one thing that he does appear to have learned is that he needs to be at the Pats to be a success (his time as OC with the Rams was less than stellar). McDaniels has an ego the size of the grand canyon which leads me to believe that he will snap up the first opportunity he gets to be a HC and will then go out to prove that the problem in Denver was not him but everyone else around him.

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I see you're bile is spreading. So it's now Belichicks turn, damn him and his negative traits. Yet you can be sure that every franchise owner in Football, would have given their right arm to have Belichick at the helm for the last decade.

Where is the 'bile'? - are you suggesting that BB is perfect? that he has all positive traits and no negative traits? that he can do no wrong?

This shows that type of nonsense that you constantly trot out. Every individual, including you and me, has positive and negative traits, no one is perfect and what makes you a better person is the ability to accentuate the positive and minimise the negative.

I would absolutely agree that any franchise would like to have BB as HC. But there would be no guarantees that BB would be a success anywhere other than NE. Sometimes it is a case of the right person in the right place at the right time.

I have been a fan of the Denver Broncos for more than 30 years. I will congratulate the job John Elway has done as a QB and since he began running the FO. But there are a lot of things I do not like about Elway (his politics to start with). I can see, from my perspective, what I consider his positive attributes in making the right decisions in appointing Fox, recruiting Manning, and - most importantly - fixing the damage done by McDaniels to the franchise and its reputation. I can also see some of the negatives that could have damaged the team (e.g. not making sure that the culture of the FO would avoid the scandals with Russell and Heckert). I am realistic of what human beings are like and make sure not to put them on a pedestal.

I actually hope McDaniels does not go to the Browns. I am convinced, until I see evidence to the contrary, that McDaniels will be an utter failure there. I remember the titanic battles between the Broncos and Browns in the 1980s - the battles between Elway and Kosar. I would love to see the Browns back challenging for honours - but I don't think they have a chance of doing that with McDaniels at the helm. Time will tell - if he gets the job - whether I will be proved wrong.

TO.

Came here looking for the New England Patriots thread and all I got was I hate Josh McDaniels and love the Broncos thread.

Please tell us again how much you hate him.

Son Of A Vidic

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

CM - you may not be aware of it but practically every time someone disagrees with you (or makes criticisms of the Pats) and is willing to challenge you on it, you engage in a put down.

This from the man who's first comments toward a new psoter in the forum, was to call their post a nonsense. Look, everyone knows you have previous form in this thread. So I'll take that with a pinch of salt. I love a good debate, this isn't one btw. I deal in facts and stats, so when you engage me, I suggest you leave your obvious prejudices at the door. Yes I have been guilty of given too many lengthy facts & stats in posts in the past and being a dog with a bone. Over elaboration was a failing of mine, which I've become mindful of. So I’m keeping it brief.

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Clearly you know little about McDaniels time in Denver and the damage he did. .

I know he made some excellent draft picks that the Broncos offense has really benefitted from.

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

McDaniels has an ego the size of the grand canyon which leads me to believe that he will snap up the first opportunity he gets to be a HC and will then go out to prove that the problem in Denver was not him but everyone else around him.

An ego the size of the grand canyon? You met the guy? You know him personally? It makes sense then that he returned to the Pats then I suppose. The one franchise in the league that doesn’t’ t put up with egos, divas or prima donnas. Up until you actually made that comment, I thought you had enunciated on the reason behind your McDaniel’s opinion quite well.

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Where is the 'bile'? - are you suggesting that BB is perfect? that he has all positive traits and no negative traits? that he can do no wrong?

Who said that he can do no wrong? I’ve been wanting him for years to sort out a deep threat and draft some young WR’s. I didn’t even want Amendola signed. I wanted a big physical target like Bolden landed instead. I’ve posted in this very thread that I’m sick of undersized, runty slot WR’s on the roster. In fact. I’d like to see Amendola cut in the offseason and a bigger target added to the roster.

But if you bothered your ass to regularly read this thread, then you wouldn't be inadvertently making my point with quastions like that. Speaking of criticism, I've also criticised and questioned McDaniel’s stupid and baffling play calling several times this season. Again, you probably missed all that. So please stop making statements that have no basis in reality.

Son Of A Vidic

TO. wrote: »

Came here looking for the New England Patriots thread and all I got was I hate Josh McDaniels and love the Broncos thread.

Please tell us again how much you hate him.

.