New England Patriots thread (MOD WARNING - #4503)

eagle eye

TO. wrote: »

Honest question. What is your expectations this season?

And do you feel that if we make the Post season but fail to make the bowl do you see it as a successful season?

Before the season started I was hoping for a 12-4 season and make the AFC Championship game. If that happens I call that a successful season. Obviously I want more, want us to win it all but you have to be realistic and understand that its all about giving yourself the shot at winning it that matters most. If we keep doing it then we will win another one.

Once you give yourself a real shot at winning it all then I'm extremely happy.

Right now after what we witnessed last night I'd take a winning season and be happy about it.

bruschi

eagle eye wrote: »

Before the season started I was hoping for a 12-4 season and make the AFC Championship game. If that happens I call that a successful season. Obviously I want more, want us to win it all but you have to be realistic and understand that its all about giving yourself the shot at winning it that matters most. If we keep doing it then we will win another one.

Once you give yourself a real shot at winning it all then I'm extremely happy.

Right now after what we witnessed last night I'd take a winning season and be happy about it.

I'm not sure why the objective should change though. Pre season you hoped for a 12-4 season to make you happy, but now you would take a winning season to make you happy. That should be a disappointment, and it would be to me. Its what I expect now having seen the team, but I genuinely thought we would improve on last year. We were in the AFC title game last year, so there was no reason to think the year after you'd be happy with a 9-7 season. The team has far more capabilities and talent to be just being happy with a winning season.

Putin

TO. wrote: »

Have we though? Signing 1 top player in Revis and another suspended guy and some other rookies and releasing 1 top player and some others isnt really investing.

I think you misinterpreted my earlier comment. I probably wasn't really clear, when I said ye invested a lot on the defensive side of the ball, I was really talking about yer drafting. I read a post by Corvus a week or two ago and he was talking about how apart from Solder, nearly all the 1st round draft picks have made on the defensive side of the ball. Brady has always made do with what he had and I think that's what made him unique amongst top QB's. But I think ye can't rely on that anymore. And when ye do spend some money on offense, the likes of Amendola is signed. You have to ask why? When Edelman already had a 4-5 year head start on him.

kryogen

Someone like Vincent Jackson even would have been nice, though I would actually be happy to just have Dobson on the field every week and have him continue the blossoming relationship with him and Brady that was starting last year. The line needs to be better though first and foremost, Solder needs to stop getting beat because if Brady has no faith that his back side is protected then it is going to hamper him a lot, he will be a lot more hurried as he always suspects he is going to get smashed from behind and thats when the mistakes happen

The line needs to protect, it needs to play better as a unit, doesn't have to be a stud line, doesn't have to clean a pocket for 6 or 7 seconds, doesn't have to drive D linemen back or on to the ground to open up big gaps, just needs to focus on protecting their qb. Treating him like their baby, which is how it is supposed to be.

I would like to see the offence being placed in Bradys hands more and the team utilise the hurry up, it wears defences out and tiring out pass rushers would obviously benefit over the course of a game.

spiralism

Putin wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more. Yes there have been overthrown passes and some bad decisions. But Christ yer O line is a complete joke. Put any QB playing behind those fools and their play is going to deteriorate. I watched Rodgers play diabolical two/three games back and why? Because he had no protection. I've seen my team in the same boat, when Brees played some terrible games behind a dire O line. And because of this I've seen Brees throw to phantom WR's & make some terrible plays. But it's not QB's who I blame, it's playing behind **** O lines. When a QB has no faith in an O line, then brace yourselves because crazy plays are bound to follow.

If I was a Pats fan, the first step I would take is to get rid of Josh McDaniel's. The guy is just useless. Any time I've seen ye play, even when you had a decent O line. McDaniels will always pull out some ridiculous, stuff. Why does he always overcomplicate things? And what's with his fixation with running the ball on Third downs? No better way to insult a defense than by running on Third down. McDaniels seems to like smart ass plays, when often the simple approach would be more effective. Hard to believe yer once great offense has been reduced to this. And there seems to have been a steady decline since McDaniel's came back.

Amazing that ye invested so much in defense and they play so poorly. I think ye have enough talent but something's not working and I think it's down to schemes and coaching. Even non-Pats know it's Bill Belichick's defense, not Matt Particia's defense. So the buck has to stop at Belichick. One of you guys made a great comparison awhile back. When he compared the Pats to Man United. Ye have reached a point where a stubborn HC that has control over everything, is now probably doing more damage to the team. Ferguson was overlord at United, yet look at the problems they've had since he left. Great coaches often have a stubborn streak and in time, it usually catches up with them. Maybe it's time Belichick was just HC and nothing else, maybe it's time to devolve some powers at Gillette.

His disastrous stint at Denver ruined him. People go on about all the **** he caused there but his playcalling drove the fans up the wall from day one. Since he came back, half the time i notice that the pats try and outsmart even themselves on offence. That's grand when you have the weapons i guess but in the same vein when he tried it at Denver with good options and a pedestrian QB and O-Line, the same results come out with a HOF QB, pedestrian options and a horrific O-Line.

Son Of A Vidic

So we go to Arrowhead, which is once again the loudest stadium in the world. We have 3 WR’s active and 5 RB’s active. And what does McDaniel’s do? He goes with a heavy overreliance on the passing game. Yes a passing game with only 3 WR’s. We start the game with three consecutive passing plays and we didn’t do much with the run for the night. So why does Josh need all these RB’s?

The Chiefs were giving up 5.1yards a carry in their run defense and we don’t run the ball. Why is he dialling up a deep ball, when the 5’10” Edelman is being covered by a 6’3” Corner? And he does this nearly every week. Meanwhile, let’s not bother our arses activating the 6’3” Dobson who we drafted to be an effective target for such passes.

It’s a well known formula when playing in front of a very noisy home crowd. If you can establish the run, run the ball at will and run it down their throats. You very quickly silence a home crowd. You then set up your play action and you pass game.

But the genius that is Josh McDaniel’s doesn’t believe is these unsophisticated strategies. He wants to go into the Lions den with only 3 WR’s and establish a passing game without establishing the run. Yes, he has to be different and cleverer than everyone else. Still running the ball on 3rd Downs, still going to Vereen on 2nd Down.

The funny thing is, he’s trying so hard to be clever than he’s become completely obvious. He’s a dream for any Defensive Coordinator. It is just mind boggling to see a team have double the amount of passing plays than run plays. Especially with a depleted WR corp and in such a hostile environment that makes communication & signalling so difficult.

Even just going back to last weeks game, the contrast is shocking.

We run the ball 16 times against the Chiefs and average 4.7 yards a carry.

We run the ball 32 times against the Raiders and average 2.4 yards a carry.

We needed to run the ball more against the Chiefs and pass the ball more against the Raiders. Yet McDaniel’s does the complete opposite of what most OC’s would have done in both games.

We were running the ball much better this week, but hey let's not do that. Let's not make life easy for us and for Brady. Let's not suck the life out of the crowd and control the tempo with a good run game.

Yes, let’s not run the ball against the Chiefs because it’s pretty effective. Better to pass more with less WR’s active, than to run more with a fully stocked & effective RB group. No wonder they shut Edelman completely out of the game, because they had feck all WR’s to cover. And they knew we weren't keeping them honest. I’m long gone beyond fed up with McDaniel’s and some of his nonsensical offensive strategies. He needs to stick with what works, keep it simple or just feck off completely imo.

me89

Bill :D

http://www.nfl.com/videos/new-england-patriots/0ap3000000403749/Belichick-We-re-on-to-Cincinnati

AbusesToilets

I read an article earlier theorising that the Pats are starting to work on their rebuild stage and are gearing up for the post- Brady era, not going out of their way to stack the team a la the Broncos. The question was put forth if that was the situation, would Brady jump ship for another shot at glory. Looking around the league at which teams would be attractive for that, the Texans jump out at me.

All guff to be sure, but I don't think that the team is gearing up for a title shot this year and maybe not again with Brady.

Hazys

Some of those journalists are absolute cretins. The questions around talent are seriously disrespectful and insulting. I hate the way they feel they are entitled to an answer. The repeating of the same questions over and over when they know they are not going to get an answer is the height of douchebaggery.

eagle eye

There is some ridiculous stuff going on here. Blaming Josh McDaniels for all thats wrong with the offense is insane imo.

He was in charge last year and we had a good offense. He was in charge of a great offense for a couple of years before he went to the Broncos.

Firstly you have to look at the personnel and how they are performing. He has to take some of the blame(but not all) for that. The biggest question mark right now is Tom Brady and whether or not he still has it.

Garopollo came on the other night, and yes it was garbage time, and he threw six completions from seven attempts and a touchdown. He hit Edelman, La Fell and Gronk on that td drive. He looked good. Brady played in garbage time too in that game and threw a horrible int and generally looked awful in the game. If this was a standalone bad performance then that would be ok but he hasn't looked good at all this season. There has to be question marks about whether he still has the ability to carry the offense.

Now if the QB is a big problem then it pretty much absolves all coaches from blame for the offensive performance so far this season. If it turns out that Garopollo starts a game in the near future and we look good on offense and that continues then its clear where the problem was. I'll wait for next Sunday and see how that goes, if Brady starts or if Garopollo starts and how they do. If its Brady and more of the same then I want to see Jimmy starting. If its Jimmy and its more of the same then its the coaches we have to look at.

JaMarcusHustle

Why the sudden turn on Brady, eagle eye? A week ago you were full of his praises.

eagle eye wrote:

I'm not living in the past either, I told you that we will be serious contenders this year, next year and the year after that. I'm confident that we are going to be one of the favourites to win it all come postseason every single year as long as we have Belichick and Brady.

eagle eye re: Tampa Bay wrote:

If Manning was playing behind that line he would still be killing teams, same with Brady and Brees.

kryogen

eagle eye wrote: »

I couldn't be bothered continuing this tit for tat stuff.

Manning, yes the unclutch one, is one of the fastest to release the ball in the history of quarterbacking. What makes him different is his accuracy while throwing so quickly. He doesn't need a great OL to complete passes. Your comparison of the OL's for him and Brady is a futile exercise.

And lets get this clear. I hope Tom Brady is still at this best and this is just a small hiccup in a great career that will last for a couple of more years. I think its well worthy of discussion though and I think its the no.1 issue for the Patriots right now.

You think the number 1 issue is Tom Brady, not the O-line for example and you are putting that up as a genuine opinion?

kryogen

bruschi wrote: »

Vandango, I don't understand why you are being so overly aggressive in your response on criticism of Brady. I too think he is not playing well, and hiding behind the excuse of the O line is just that, an excuse. No one is putting sole blame on Brady, but equally so, he needs to, and is, accept a fair portion of blame as to how the offense is playing this year. To completely brush over his performances is head in the sand stuff.

Brady has been below par, I think most people have posted about it by now.

He is hardly the number 1 problem with the team and you can actually see the reasons possible for why he is below par pretty easily.

eagle eye

kryogen wrote: »

Brady has been below par, I think most people have posted about it by now.

He is hardly the number 1 problem with the team and you can actually see the reasons possible for why he is below par pretty easily.

You see we have a disagreement here because while I'm fully in agreement that the OL is a big problem right now it doesn't in any way excuse what Tom Brady has been doing when he has gotten protection.

Take out all the bad OL play and then look at Brady's body of work when he has been protected and it becomes clear that he has been very poor for the most part this season.

Even with bad OL protection in the past Brady has still got it done. He hasn't this season and its a huge concern to me. QB is the no.1 most important position on the team for me, left tackle is no.2 and we have serious problems in both positions by the looks of things.

bruschi

kryogen wrote: »

Brady has been below par, I think most people have posted about it by now.

He is hardly the number 1 problem with the team and you can actually see the reasons possible for why he is below par pretty easily.

I agree with all that, but that wasn't my point. Vandango doesn't see past the O line which I really don't agree with. Brady is poor, regardless of the worse performing O line

JaMarcusHustle

kryogen wrote: »

Brady has been below par, I think most people have posted about it by now.

He is hardly the number 1 problem with the team and you can actually see the reasons possible for why he is below par pretty easily.

I think it's as simple as that.

So, so often on this forum (and in most arguments in real life), the answer lies in the middle of the two sides.

Is Brady the #1 problem? No.
Is Brady completely blameless? No.

He's somewhere in the middle. He's been poor, but others have been worse.

Personally, I think someone who has gone without the share of blame he deserves is Nate Solder. He has been very, very poor - bordering on absolutely awful at times.

bruschi

JaMarcusHustle wrote: »

I think it's as simple as that.

So, so often on this forum (and in most arguments in real life), the answer lies in the middle of the two sides.

Is Brady the #1 problem? No.
Is Brady completely blameless? No.

He's somewhere in the middle. He's been poor, but others have been worse.

Personally, I think someone who has gone without the share of blame he deserves is Nate Solder. He has been very, very poor - bordering on absolutely awful at times.

Totally agree on solder. Really really disappointed with him and said it yesterday. He is being paid to lead that O line, and he not only is not doing that, he's not even doing the basics of his job well.

me89

I hope we get the win Sunday because this thread will be unbearable if we have a losing record.

bruschi

me89 wrote: »

I hope we get the win Sunday because this thread will be unbearable if we have a losing record.

The mods will be in meltdown!

It'll be interesting to see the reaction of the team tho. This will tell a lot about character and where we are going

frostie500

Hi guys,
I'm going to lock this thread because it's running a little too hot under the collar for a lot of users. I need to have a look through the thread and see what action needs to be taken and I'll reopen the thread in due course

TO.

I would post this in the Pats thread but that is under review. Mods move this in there when it opens again.

Dobson apparently has been falling out with McDaniels and it came to a head over the last 2 weeks and he was benched due to mouthing off to Josh McDaniels.

Now there is many reports out there on this but I am getting sick and tired of Josh McDaniels. Most coaches when they get mouthed off to will pull the player a side and sort it out. Not the Pats, they bench your ass for 2 games.

As someone who coaches in the game I was always told by my mentors and coaches I worked with that taking the player aside and sitting em down and discussing it with them is always better than benching them especially something so minor. Get them back on your side. Work it out with them.

I get the Patriots have this attitude that no one is bigger than the team but benching a player for 2 games over mouthing off is excessive and a joke.

I really hope the reports are untrue for Josh Mc sake because its pathetic and we can't exactly go the season having such talent wasting away on the bench over minor incidents.

Rant over

eagle eye

Where are these reports coming from? What media source?

AbusesToilets

I saw it on yahoo's sport section. It would be good to get some insight into what is going on with the Pat's offence.

TO.

eagle eye wrote: »

Where are these reports coming from? What media source?

All over the usual outlets. Am unable to grab the links because my phone is a piece of garbage but all over twitter and PFT and Yahoo and pretty much all of the usual sports pages.

Edit: My phone decided to let me grab a link so Here you go google is your friend:

https://news.google.com/news?ncl=dPxnwisKRErwfPMR0zunUvqK2rJ0M&q=aaron+dobson+josh+mcdaniels&lr=English&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PO0sVIPAHZCryAT_mILQCQ&ved=0CCkQqgIwAA

me89

Maybe he told him his play calling this season has been sh*t

kryogen

Its not a hard story to come up with, and its unlikely BB will comment either way so not sure whether to believe it or not, but if it is true although I would be loathe to make a judgement without knowing all the facts of the matter it doesn't sound good for Josh, he needs to be pulling the offence together not fostering a divide.

Very few matters cannot be sorted out by the player and coach sitting down privately and working it out. Benching for two games would be a drastic measure and without knowing what happened, if anything happened it is hard to know what to make of it.

Why is the thread still closed?

CJC86

@GregABedard: Breaking: Entire population of New England declared inactive for Bengals game for mouthing off to McDaniels.

BizzyC

IMO it depends on what is said.

If a guy is mouthing off cause he's frustrated with reps etc, take him aside.
You can't bear a grudge against someone for wanting to play.

But if he's being properly disrespectful to a coach, bench him till he learns some respect.

eagle eye

Lets not forget that Belichick has to sign off on this too. I have no clue if this is true or not but it must be bad if Belichick is benching you.

On the other side of things though, if it is something ridiculous that shouldn't warrant this action then maybe its the whole reason behind how poor our offense has been. It might be a case that the OC has lost his players and they are just going through the motions. Tbh I'd like if that was the case, it would be a hell of a lot better than knowing that what is going on at the moment on the field is not going to stop.

paulie21

You have to tow a line in New England. Remember Welker getting benched against Jets in 2010 playoffs for making fun of Rex Ryan's foot fetish even though Rex said he didn't mind as it was a no holds barred week