New England Patriots thread (MOD WARNING - #4503)

Son Of A Vidic · 03-02-2015 9:20pm

Benimar wrote: »

I saw Montana win 3 of his 4 Super Bowls and always thought he was the best ever. However, Brady is the closest anyone has ever come to Montana in my book and may even have surpassed him. There is a case to be made for both and I wouldn't argue with either opinion.

I agree 100% that the Brady/Manning debate is over (it was for me long before Sunday anyway) - Titles, play off record, head to head all in Brady's favour (with less weapons to work with). There is just no argument anymore.

Me too, I loved watching Montana when I was a kid. For a few years now, Brady and Montana have stood above the rest. What happened on Sunday has removed any guilt I had about putting Brady above Montana as the one and only GOAT. In 29 Superbowls, teams who have held a 10 point lead in the second half have never lost. And no team has ever overcome a double digit second half deficit to win a Superbowl. Up until Sunday it was 29-0 and now thanks to more fabulous heroics from Brady, it stands at 29-1. There he was, super clutch once again, 13 years after his first title.

This Seahawks defense rank as one of the best of all time and have totally dominated the league. Last year they destroyed the Broncos and led Manning to a complete meltdown. Contrast that with Brady on Sunday, his final two drives to get back into the game and then win it were just unbelievable. He was lighting fast in his decision making and the fastest defense of all time was too slow to stop him.

Now lets remind ourselves that this is a 37 year old QB, at that age, Montana was a shadow of his former self. In fact when Montana was 37, he started 11 games for the Chiefs, completed 60.7 percent of his passes for 2,144 yards with 13 TDs and 7 INTs. now compare that what a 37 year old Brady just did in the regular & postseason.

While Montana spent a career surrounded by elite, all pro WRs and a top ranked defense. Brady never had a top ranked defense behind him and he has has spent his career turning unknown guys like Welker & Edelmen into NFL stars. Even this season, look at La Fell before Brady and look at him after Brady. Brady has won his rings with 4 different personnel groupings, Montana always had his elites with him and never faced such adversity and the revolving groupings of players that Brady has had to deal with.

Brady started last season with 94% of all pass catchers from 2012 gone. His 6 top WR's had either moved on or were injured. No QB with GOAT aspirations has ever faced such a disaster. We had no right, yet we ended up in the AFC title game and only lost because of a collapsing interior O line. 2013 for me was one of Brady's best ever, because it summarised his greatness - by making do with what he had, the way only he can.

Then we have the most significant difference of all - Free Agency and the Salary Cap. Montana never had to struggle with these very significant handicaps. He played during an era, when the team with the big money could own the big players and the 49er's did that. There was no cap, they were not limited. Whereas because of the salary cap, Brady has spent his entire career turning lead into gold with a revolving group of players. Thanks to the limitations imposed by the salary cap.

According to some, you would also think that Montana was all alone. You would think it was only Brady who had a great Head Coach like Belichick. But no, that's not correct. Montana had the legendary genius of Bill Walsh by his side. Now unless you don't remember the era, then you could not forget the genius of Bill Walsh. But at the end of the day, regardless of who's by their side. It's all down to the players themselves to execute and deliver on the field.

Some don't like to compare eras, but everything about this era makes things much harder. QB's like Montana weren't getting hit by monstrous defensive linemen, who were built like mountains and faster than sprinters. Today a QB faces human freaks on the field. Defenses have become much more complex and intricate. Brady has succeeded against more specialised and exotic defenses, nickels, dimes, complicated fronts and looks than Montana ever had to ever face.

Montana was my hero as kid and I used to get some very strange looks trying to throw a Gaelic football like a pigskin. But Brady is my number 1. I could go and on with my rationale, so I just threw these few snippets together for why Brady is my GOAT.

NapoleonInRags · 03-02-2015 9:50pm

Excellent analysis of the final play here.

Props to Browner who made it possible.

http://www.the42.ie/super-bowl-xlix-game-film-breakdown-1917571-Feb2015/?utm_source=twitter_self

Mr. Guappa · 03-02-2015 10:59pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Yeah I'm kinda over winning it already and looking towards next year already. We really do have a big chance to repeat. Offensive line could be improved and we probably need to look at DT too.

Where are we at with notable free agents?
AFAIK Ridley, Vereen, Connolly and Gost are out of contract? And Revis is effectively the same. Anyone else?

Hazys · 03-02-2015 11:08pm

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Where are we at with notable free agents?
AFAIK Ridley, Vereen, Connolly and Gost are out of contract? And Revis is effectively the same. Anyone else?

Big one you're missing is McCourty.

paulie21 · 03-02-2015 11:08pm

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Where are we at with notable free agents?
AFAIK Ridley, Vereen, Connolly and Gost are out of contract? And Revis is effectively the same. Anyone else?

McCourtey as well

helimachoptor · 04-02-2015 8:53am

paulie21 wrote: »

McCourtey as well

could link up wth his brother if the pats dont want him tbh..

JaMarcusHustle · 04-02-2015 8:59am

Must-click.

http://boston.barstoolsports.com/random-thoughts/patriots-micd-up-in-the-super-bowl-was-the-most-amazing-thing-ive-ever-seen/

bruschi · 04-02-2015 9:19am

Scott O Brien has, as been known all year, retired. Owes them nothing. Special teams was excellent this season, and has been for a while. Between Gostkowski, Allen and Edelman and Amendola, and then obviously the gunners and protection, all aspects of the kicking and returning game were excellent this year. They made some great plays, and really important plays, and even the very first punt of the superbowl, huge kick from Allen and then hammered right on the reception.

Congrats Scotty, all the best. He is going into some other role in the franchise by all accounts. Assistant Joe Judge takes over.

CJC86 · 04-02-2015 9:50am

JaMarcusHustle wrote: »

Must-click.

http://boston.barstoolsports.com/random-thoughts/patriots-micd-up-in-the-super-bowl-was-the-most-amazing-thing-ive-ever-seen/

Love it. Could do with a bit more Mahky Mahk though.

Jolly Red Giant · 04-02-2015 11:02am

Benimar wrote: »

I suppose what I'm saying is, if I had to take a QB for one full game where a win was essential, I don't think I'd be swayed from Montana or Brady.

I think I would actually go with Marino.

When you talk about QBs you really cannot ignore the supporting cast -

would Montana have been as good without Rice and Craig?

would Brady be as good without BB and Gronk?

would Elway have won the two SBs without Terrell Davis?

Marino was probably the most consistent QB of the lot - the Dolphins never put together a roster (specifically a defence) capable of helping him win an SB.

FA and the cap have actually changed the game a lot. The Pats are probably the best at exploiting the cap and FA in the modern game and it is one of the reasons why they have managed to be so consistent.

PIORUN · 04-02-2015 11:52am

Gronk on Kimmel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6uhUc9GP3Y

Benimar · 04-02-2015 12:10pm

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

I think I would actually go with Marino.

When you talk about QBs you really cannot ignore the supporting cast -

would Montana have been as good without Rice and Craig?

would Brady be as good without BB and Gronk?

would Elway have won the two SBs without Terrell Davis?

Marino was probably the most consistent QB of the lot - the Dolphins never put together a roster (specifically a defence) capable of helping him win an SB.

FA and the cap have actually changed the game a lot. The Pats are probably the best at exploiting the cap and FA in the modern game and it is one of the reasons why they have managed to be so consistent.

As much as I like Marino (he's the reason I'm a Dolphins fan) he did have the Marks Brothers and a fairly decent coach too:pac:

He is definitely the best QB not to win a Super Bowl IMO (and far better than most who did) but with Brady (and Montana) I always feel that they will 'find a way' to win.

What I like about Brady, Montana and Marino is that they all just play the game. If things aren't going right they don't let it affect them, they play the cards they are dealt. With some others (yes, Manning) it can seem that everything has to be perfect or it all goes to s*it.

I'm sure someone will eventually try 'prove' who was the best, but I'm happy just to have seen all 3 in action.

adrian522 · 04-02-2015 12:47pm

I'm not getting into a Montana Brady debate because I think it's pointless but I will call out this.

would Montana have been as good without Rice and Craig?

Possibly not, but then when you have the Greatest receiver of all time it will always help (Not to mention an all time great coach and a great defense) but Montana did have 2 super bowls won before Rice even got drafted. So there is that. The 49ers went from 6-10 to Superbowl champions that first year, and it wasn't like they had the all star cast of later years at that point.

I'm firmly in the "It's impossible to compare QB's of different era's" camp but what is clear is that Brady is an all time great QB and there is no one currently playing that is even close to entering that conversation. Maybe Rodgers in years to come but right now Brady stands alone.

matthew8 · 04-02-2015 1:02pm

Some good points made about comparing across eras but by far the biggest difference in eras for passing is the rule changes. Whenever I watch old games I'm amazed at what the defenders get away with in coverage and QBs today also get more protection from big hits in the pocket, which surely helps longevity. Defenses are more complex but you can't hold it against Montana for playing what's in front of him. The salary cap era is an important point but it's negated a bit by how useful it is to have an elite QB these days. In the old days a quarterback could have an incredible season (eg Marino 1986) compared to other QBs of the time but miss the playoffs because the position didn't have the same importance. You only have to look at Rodgers dragging his team kicking and screaming into the playoffs 6 years in a row to see what an elite QB will do for a modern NFL team.

CJC86 · 04-02-2015 1:03pm

adrian522 wrote: »

The 49ers went from 6-10 to Superbowl champions that first year...

Like you, I'm not going to get too involved in the debate; I'll pick Brady, but I've no issue with anyone else picking Montana. I will point out that Brady had a similar impact on the Pats in his first year, they went 5-11 the season before he was starting.

adrian522 · 04-02-2015 1:06pm

Absolutely, my point was that Montana didn't always have this team of superstars, though that did come later where SF pretty much had their pick of anyone they wanted.

UnitedIrishman · 04-02-2015 4:22pm

When is that mic'd up premiering or was it already on? I may.. 'acquire'.. it when it comes out!

adrian522 · 04-02-2015 5:34pm

Tonight, 9pm Eastern, so it should be available tomorrow.

Hazys · 04-02-2015 7:38pm

Just back from the parade, good fun. Unfortunately none of my pictures came out have decent so they are not worth sharing.

Hazys · 04-02-2015 7:55pm

Barstool coverage of the parade:

http://www.barstoolsports.com/m/boston/super-page/edelman-has-pretty-much-been-going-bananas-the-entire-parade/

http://www.barstoolsports.com/m/boston/super-page/malcolm-butler-waving-around-the-keys-to-his-new-truck-like-it-was-the-lombardi-cracked-me-up/

http://www.barstoolsports.com/m/boston/super-page/bradys-kid-throwing-up-the-4-is-the-pic-of-the-parade/

http://www.barstoolsports.com/m/boston/super-page/gronk-doing-gronk-things-chugging-beers-mid-parade/

http://www.barstoolsports.com/m/boston/super-page/brandon-bolden-waving-a-bitch-mode-tshirt-on-the-parade/

j8wk2feszrnpao · 04-02-2015 8:12pm

Edelman is just having a whale of a time!
Good for him, cause he's going to have some hangover

Wish I could find his SB jersey online. Seems to have sold out.

Hazys · 04-02-2015 8:38pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZVAhk3J0mw

BKWDR · 04-02-2015 8:54pm

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

When is that mic'd up premiering or was it already on? I may.. 'acquire'.. it when it comes out!

Anyone any luck in acquiring it?

Son Of A Vidic · 05-02-2015 1:41am

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

When you talk about QBs you really cannot ignore the supporting cast -

would Montana have been as good without Rice and Craig?

I don't know how it's even possible for someone to overlook the great John Taylor. He was another elite All-Pro & Pro-Bowler WR that Montana was blessed to have. In fact him and Rice were nicknamed Batman and Robin, they were such a lethal combo on the field.

Behind every great man is a great woman, behind every great QB is a great Head Coach. Of course you also seemed to have completed negated the genius of Bill Walsh. And once again, I don't know how that's even possible.

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

would Brady be as good without BB and Gronk?

Just to remind you there on your slight oversight. In his early years, when Brady was forging his legend and leading Superbowl winning drives. He didn't have Gronk around to help him win his three rings.

No he had just a bunch of average Joe targets like David Givens, David Patten, Daniel Graham. No he wasn't blessed with a starring cast of elite WR's back then and you won't find an All-Pro or Pro-bowler amongst them.

Like Montana & Walsh, Brady & Belchick have been the key to the continuing success of the franchise.

Vandango · 05-02-2015 7:39am

matthew8 wrote: »

Some good points made about comparing across eras but by far the biggest difference in eras for passing is the rule changes. Whenever I watch old games I'm amazed at what the defenders get away with in coverage and QBs today also get more protection from big hits in the pocket, which surely helps longevity. Defenses are more complex but you can't hold it against Montana for playing what's in front of him. The salary cap era is an important point but it's negated a bit by how useful it is to have an elite QB these days. In the old days a quarterback could have an incredible season (eg Marino 1986) compared to other QBs of the time but miss the playoffs because the position didn't have the same importance. You only have to look at Rodgers dragging his team kicking and screaming into the playoffs 6 years in a row to see what an elite QB will do for a modern NFL team.

Brady and Manning played under the old rules, real protection didn't really come in until 2008. Both those QBs were half way through their careers at that stage. Back in Montana's day, the O lines were usually the biggest, baddest men on the field. Today monstrous, defensive freaks wreck O lines in every other game. The over abundance of human freaks that play on defense today, coupled with the serous increase in defensive complexity, really have brought the challenges facing today's QB's to a higher level. There a reason you hear the words - salary cap & free agency coming out of every analysts mouth when they compare eras. And that's because it is the single, most important factor in place today, which seriously impedes and prevents teams consistently dominating. Star QB's of yesteryear didn't have such concerns because teams were easily kept together without such restrictions.

Putin · 05-02-2015 8:01am

Congrats to all you Pats, you guys overcame some schedule this year, your Champions tag is well deserved. I thought Brady's performance against the Ravens couldn't be matched, but watching him lead consecutives drives in the 4th against the best defense, possibly of all time was surreal. 13 years after become a starter and he's still playing at the highest level, at the biggest & most clutch moments. He became my GOAT on Sunday, the debate ended for me.

JaMarcusHustle · 05-02-2015 8:40am

What's incredible is that Brady and Belichick have literally won a Super Bowl with 2 entirely different rosters. Brady is literally the only active player that was on the 2001 and 2003 team. It's a phenomenal achievement.