Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
New England Patriots thread (MOD WARNING - #4503)
Comments
-
Whether we like it or not Welker has been a key in our offense for a long time now and getting upset or pissed off with him for what he is doing now is stupid. He deserves to get paid and if the Pats wont do it someone else will. His production speaks for itself and any Pats fan who says he doesn't deserve the pay is kidding themselves. Over 1300 yards last season and 118 receptions. It is fair to say he is still very productive.
The Fact that Tom Brady has come out and said he hopes Welker stays also helps Welker's stock and in Welker's mind and many others he is still a valuable commodity in the NFL. We would be fools to think he wont get paid somewhere.
I did agree with bizzy that the list was a short one of who could use him but doing more homework into it the Chiefs and 49ers in my eyes are prime targets for a guy like Welker. West Coast offense suits slot WR especially Andy Reid's system if he reverts back to his old WCO system.0 -
We all should know at this stage that the patriots don't pay anybody on past production. The Patriots will pay him according to how productive they think he will be over the course of a new contract. Not according to his past production and I totally agree with them on that approach. It's just good logical business sense.
I don't think anybody said in here that they wanted Welker to go. I want him to stay, but certainly not at any cost. Last season showed us that Wes is the most durable offensive weapon we have. And that for me is the real value he brings, because when Gronk & Co inenvitably go down injured. Wes will be there ready to play and that for me is his greatest strenght - his dependablity.
I believe the Pats will make him a fair offer, but basing it on what he has done in the past would be crazy. This is not a game for sentimentality. I don't want Welker sucking up all our funds that we could be using on strengthening the team. No Free Agent we have is worth that.0 -
I disagree.
I think Welker's value can only be realised on a team that has a strong passing mentality.
Chiefs/49ers wouldn't utilise him correctly to get the kind of production he gets in NE.
The only team I can really see him having the same production on is Denver, but they wont have the cap space for his price tag.
I think it's very likely there are plenty of teams willing to pay him a lot more than the Pats, but I doubt he'll; have the same success on any of them.0 -
Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,137 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 15667
What sort of cash is he looking for ? I'd absolutely love to see him in SF, but don't see it happening, I could imagine other teams offering him that little bit more.0 -
I disagree.
I think Welker's value can only be realised on a team that has a strong passing mentality.
Chiefs/49ers wouldn't utilise him correctly to get the kind of production he gets in NE.
.
Well that is the thing he wont find the same production elsewhere because any team he fits according to most has enough WR across the board to spread the ball around to. And any other non spread system where running is heavily featured it is a given he wont see the same production. It doesn't mean his value is weakend.
As for the WCO. Andy Reid has always liked to adapt the Pass first run second nature with his offense. Especially the Early years at the Eagles. He also likes to utilise the short to mid routes using crossing routes, slants and pretty much every short route there is. To say Welker wont be productive in an offense that suits slot WR is wrong in my eyes. Sure he wont see the 118 catches etc etc but again that is the same problem he will face if he goes to another already successful spread offense with a full compliment of WR.
My point about him leaving though is the 49ers, Chiefs and many others will pony up for him there is no shadow of a doubt about it. No team is going to pass up Welker given the chance to get him. Plenty of teams including the Chiefs and 49ers who have plenty of cap room.0 -
Advertisement
-
Corvus Maximus wrote: »We all should know at this stage that the patriots don't pay anybody on past production. The Patriots will pay him according to how productive they think he will be over the course of a new contract. Not according to his past production and I totally agree with them on that approach. It's just good logical business sense.
I have been hearing this nonsense for a long time and its about time Pats fans take their heads out of their asses. Coming into 2012 people sprouted this same ****e and said Welker wont be that productive. Hell even reporters did it. Sure hindsight is a wonderful thing but Welker was pretty much told to put up or shut up and he most certainly put up. Nothing to say he wont do it again. This crap of "Paying on future Production" is nonsense and nothing more than excuse to politely say we don't think you are worth the money anymore. And anyone with a brain knows it as does Welker.I don't think anybody said in here that they wanted Welker to go. I want him to stay, but certainly not at any cost. Last season showed us that Wes is the most durable offensive weapon we have. And that for me is the real value he brings, because when Gronk & Co inenvitably go down injured. Wes will be there ready to play and that for me is his greatest strenght - his dependablity.
Add all of the above with the numbers he puts up. Come on you are basically saying his main asset is dependability when the numbers and production reflect something more than dependability. The fact our Great QB keeps throwing to Welker every time speaks for itself. If Tom Brady gets the money he wants Wes Welker should also. Ridiculous it is.I believe the Pats will make him a fair offer, but basing it on what he has done in the past would be crazy. This is not a game for sentimentality. I don't want Welker sucking up all our funds that we could be using on strengthening the team. No Free Agent we have is worth that.
And this is why the Pats wont win a Superbowl in 2013/14. Daft logic. As for the sentimentality? No idea why you need to mention it we are talking production and worth here. I never mentioned the sentimental aspect of keeping him around.
Edit: Since we are playing see in the future on this. What happens if we lose Gronk or Hernandez again to injury? Who do we turn to? Do the same Pats fans saying we shouldn't pay Welker then turn around and say sh1t we should have paid him?0 -
I agree 100% with TO.
To me, Welker - while not in echelon of importance to this team that Brady and Wilfork are (I have them as our 2 most important players) - is in the next level alongside Gronk, Mankins and Mayo. And probably at the top of those 4. I don't know why, but people seem to think that WR is the most plug-and-play position in the NFL. It's not. It has it's own very specific set of skills and requirements, and none more so than the Pats offensive system. It's why so many WRs have failed in New England in the last few years. Welker has mastered it, and has done so while putting up monster production. To let him go would be foolish and will come back to haunt us big time, because it just so happens that our most important player relies on him a lot. Replacing him will be nigh on impossible. You dont just plug in an Edelman, Amendola, Harvin etc. because they're small slot guys and expect them to mirror Welker's numbers. That's idiotic.0 -
Here's a great article from Ron Borges on why Welker is underpaid, and is right to seek a big deal.Depending on who you want to believe this week Wes Welker is either a) staying, b) leaving, c) closing in on a multiyear deal, d) willing to move out of New England, e) mildly peeved at the Patriots or f) coming to the realization he’s better off staying in New England than going elsewhere. Thank the Lord there are only 26 letters in the alphabet or who knows how far the speculation could stretch?
There have been published reports claiming all these things are true and some claiming none is true. Plenty of people, no matter what the news is, are saying they knew it yesterday, and there so many different reports that no matter what happens to Welker, short of his contracting cholera, people will be lining up to say, “Had it all along.’’
The truth is nobody knows what Welker is going to do, including Wes Welker. But he has authorized agent David Dunn to begin allowing other teams to legally tamper with him, and the idea is that if one of them tampers affectionately enough, he’s willing to move on. Frankly, it’s about time he thought that way.
.Many numbers have been bandied about the past few weeks to explain Welker’s value or lack thereof, but try these numbers on for size before you decide what his real value is in New England.
In the six years Welker has been with the Patriots, he’s been paid roughly $27,642,115. He earned $9,515,000 of that last season after being given the franchise tag, meaning he earned nearly a third of his total Pats compensation in 2012.
Welker has 741 catches (including the playoffs) and 41 receiving touchdowns for the Patriots. That’s roughly $37,303 per catch.
The former Chad Ochocinco played one season here, was paid $6 million and caught 16 passes at a price of $375,000 per catch.
Brandon Lloyd arrived last year and was paid $4,004,805 (including $1 million in deferrals to March 31). He caught 86 passes (12 in the playoffs) at a rate of $46,567 per reception.
In three seasons, Aaron Hernandez has been paid $14,515,000, including a signing bonus last season of $12,500,000 to renegotiate his contract even though the Patriots had full control of him for two more seasons. That bonus was $3 million more than Welker was paid on March 6, 2007, after agreeing to extend his contract for five years one day after being acquired from the Dolphins.
During Hernandez’ three seasons with the Pats, he has 210 catches at a cost of $69,119 per reception.
Rob Gronkowski agreed to a similar re-negotiation last offseason under the same circumstances as Hernandez, receiving an $8,000,000 signing bonus (upping the total signing bonuses he’s received to $9,760,000, $760,000 more than Welker unless you include the $10 million option bonus that comes due for Gronkowski in 2015, which would push him to nearly $11 million more in signing bonuses than Welker).
In three seasons, Gronkowski has been paid $12,185,115 for 208 catches, or $58,584 per catch.
In addition, Welker has missed three regular-season games in six years. Gronkowski has missed five in three years. Hernandez has missed 10. What was that about value?
Despite his numbers — fiscal and football — apparently losing Welker is a gamble the Patriots are willing to take because they believe he (here we go again) a) won’t get a big enough number from the teams that might pursue him to convince him to leave his binky Tom Brady or b) will give them a chance to match any number even though no opposing team in its right mind would give him that opportunity if they are set to make a legitimate, big-money offer.
Then there’s c) they don’t care, and this is the easiest way out of the situation because they can tell the public Welker was overpaid even though he’s clearly been underpaid the past six years, or d) they believe that if he ends up leaving, fans will remember more his two alleged “drops’’ of off-the-mark passes by Brady (including the one in the Super Bowl that in reality is only a drop if you believe Welker is Elastic Man covered in Stickum) than the fact he’s caught 80 more passes in regular season from 2007-12 than any other receiver in pro football (672 to Brandon Marshall’s 592).
Regardless of what metric you use, Welker has been the definition of a value pick. He’s been the epitome of durability. He has been the essence of reliability. And if he doesn’t have more than “mild disdain’’ for what’s gone on with him in Foxboro, he’s an idiot.
The same is true if he believes what happened to him early last season, when the Patriots tried to move away from him and in the direction of Hernandez, Gronkowski and Julian Edelman (who has missed 16 games in four seasons, or five times as many as Welker in six), won’t happen again if he stays.
If Welker believes the best deal for him is in New England, he should put all that aside and stay. But not until he knows what the real cost of staying is.0 -
I agree with the general gist of that article, but I really hate when journalists use misleading figures to substantiate their point. The pay per catch thing is off putting. Take out Ochostinko from it, as that was a complete bust, Lloyd is somewhat comparable, and the singing bonus for Hernandez and Gronk completely skews their payment in a comparison way. Its like the misleading stats on Bradys contract last year, journalists will use selective figures to try make their argument.
The only thing he needed to say in that article, and please excuse me using a Leon Sandcastle quote, but PAY THE MAN!0 -
Extremely misleading figures about past production. Ron Borges is an idiot as usual and his argument is pointless. You don't pay a player based on past production and you sure as hell know the Patriots know that. I agree Welker has been underpaid as a Patriot for his production but i think it was a bit circumstantial/bad luck.
He was a nobody till the Patriots traded for him. His best season with the Dolphins was 67 receptions for 687 yards and one touchdown. He then had an excellent year as part of the 18-1 team and his contract was up...so how much of his the 2007 season was fluke or Wes Welker talent? Nobody knew (including Wes) after that season so he took a fair deal of $18m of 5 years.
Then he went on to be a Superstar and the $18m over 5 years looks messily. Welker could have taken a short deal if he backed himself but he didn't. The Patriots franchised him last year making him one of the top 5 best paid WRs in the league.
Wes Welker is a 32 years old now, is he currently in the top 5 WRs in the league? Yes but for how long? And how much of his success is attributed to system?
I think the Patriots will be fair in what they offer Welker but the problem is some team will offer a ridiculous amount to Welker and he'll have no choice but to accept. I'd love for him to stay on a 3yr, $7m a year contract but i don't see it happening0 -
Advertisement
-
You don't pay a player based on past production and you sure as hell know the Patriots know that. I agree Welker has been underpaid as a Patriot for his production but i think it was a bit circumstantial/bad luck.
And this is why many Pats fans and analysts including myself believe the Patriots need to get their heads out of their own asses and this includes those fans who think Welker shouldn't get paid.
This not basing off past production is such a bullsh1t excuse and the more I hear the more it annoys me. Basically the Patriots and those fans who don't think he should be paid are once again predicting the future believing Welker wont be productive next season. Look where that got you in 2012 thinking that. As I said in other words we don't think you will be good enough next year to get paid. You might be one of the most productive players we have but not good enough to get paid.He was a nobody till the Patriots traded for him. His best season with the Dolphins was 67 receptions for 687 yards and one touchdown. He then had an excellent year as part of the 18-1 team and his contract was up...so how much of his the 2007 season was fluke or Wes Welker talent? Nobody knew (including Wes) after that season so he took a fair deal of $18m of 5 years.
Then he went on to be a Superstar and the $18m over 5 years looks messily. Welker could have taken a short deal if he backed himself but he didn't. The Patriots franchised him last year making him one of the top 5 best paid WRs in the league.
If they don't judge contracts off past production then none of this is relevant right? Surely trying to bring this into the mix contradicts the whole argument of judging on past production.
But I have to laugh at this argument every time it comes up when Welker is mentioned. Welker is now the bad guy for wanting to get paid. Or he is only a product of the system yadda yadda yadda. The excuses come pouring in every time.Wes Welker is a 32 years old now, is he currently in the top 5 WRs in the league? Yes but for how long? And how much of his success is attributed to system?
Ask Tom Brady. But let me humour you for a minute. Tom Brady loves Welker and because of the "system" Welker is his top target. Ok Welker is the Pats top Target in the system. Remove the top target who is the most productive and where does that leave you when you can't find someone to fit the same system. When you have someone who is extremely productive in your workplace and does a job many others have struggled to do and doesn't look like he is slowing down yet, You take a chance on him.I think the Patriots will be fair in what they offer Welker but the problem is some team will offer a ridiculous amount to Welker and he'll have no choice but to accept. I'd love for him to stay on a 3yr, $7m a year contract but i don't see it happening
I honestly hope he accepts a ridiculous amount somewhere else and has an extremely productive season with them. Because I tell you when he does watch all the guys quite happy to dump Welker stand up and say Oh sh1t we should have kept him. Especially when we can't find anyone to replace him. Anyone who truly believes Hernandez and Gronk can fill the void left by Welker you are wrong on so many levels.0 -
Good post TO. Welker has never let up in his time with the Patriots and there is no reason to think he will over the next couple of years.0
-
Join Date:Posts: 20819
Volmer now playing for the New York Patriots0 -
helimachoptor wrote: »Volmer now playing for the New York Patriots
Either a very clever troll or just a stupid fook. Reminds me of a t-shirt I saw once.0 -
I have been hearing this nonsense for a long time and its about time Pats fans take their heads out of their asses.
Disregarding another opinion like that is something I'd expect in the Soccer Forum and not from a fellow Patriot fan in the Patriots thread. I expect better from you tbh.Coming into 2012 people sprouted this same ****e and said Welker wont be that productive.
Who exactly were these people? Because I certainly wasn't one them. When things went south, I was mentally prepared for 2012 to be his last season. It was prudent for the team to prepare guys like Edelman to take over. Of course he couldn’t do it, but they had to try.
If reports are true that Welker was annoyed about this, then he needs to cop himself on. It’s called forward planning, I don’t want us needing Welker until he can’t walk anymore. I want him to finish his career with us, but I also want a replacement ready to take over his production when the time comes.Sure hindsight is a wonderful thing but Welker was pretty much told to put up or shut up and he most certainly put up.
Not quite, he didn’t really shut and he made a major fúck up last season with these comments..
Realising how much he screwed up, he quickly back tracked in another interview. ...."There have been talks, but nothing that’s brightened anything at all," Welker said. "It’s actually gotten worse."
http://bostonherald.com/sports/patriots_nfl/new_england_patriots/2012/05/wes_welker_contract_talks_pats_have_%E2%80%98gotten_worse%E2%80%99
If there’s one thing he should have learned from being a Patriot, it’s everything is done quietly, privately and in-house. Whining to the media is a cardinal sin. He might have had genuine reasons for being frustrated, but mouthing it in public was a very, very bad move imo."That was probably a bad choice of words saying they've gotten worse," Welker said. "They've stayed the same. I'm franchised for the year and I'm completely happy with that and completely OK with it. I look forward to contributing to the team in 2012.
"I'm not frustrated whatsoever. I know the words that came out probably seemed that way but I'm not frustrated at all. I'm making five times what I did last year so there's no frustration here."
http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2012/05/welker_backtrac.html?camp=pmThis crap of "Paying on future Production" is nonsense and nothing more than excuse to politely say we don't think you are worth the money anymore. And anyone with a brain knows it as does Welker.
But it is what it is, they have to be realistic, he’s not 28 anymore. He’s a soon to be 32 year old, banged up slot receiver who’s best years are probably behind him. I just don’t want his contract eating up our cap space. He needs to get the reality that it’s all about the team. What Brady did last week was all about winning and creating more space for the teams needs. Welker should have learned from this.Add all of the above with the numbers he puts up. Come on you are basically saying his main asset is dependability. when the numbers and production reflect something more than dependability.
Correct, I said his greatest strength is his dependability. I did not say that was his only strength, so please be clear on that. And what else could his numbers mean? He always delivers = he‘s always dependable. Of course it takes skill to do that and shouldn’t that really go without saying?
As I said....Corvus Maximus wrote: »when Gronk & Co inevitably go down injured. Wes will be there ready to play and that for me is his greatest strength - his dependability.
Yes he has many qualities, but his dependability and consistency are his most important ones for me. How anyone can interpret that in a negative light is beyond me. And that’s the biggest reason I want to keep him, when everyone is handing in a sick note he’ll be out there for us.The fact our Great QB keeps throwing to Welker every time speaks for itself.
It tells me he is naturally Brady’s favourite comfort blanket, but after 6 years playing with him, he’s bound to be isn’t he?If Tom Brady gets the money he wants Wes Welker should also.
Brady gets the money? The guy has given us bargain basement value. So maybe Welker should follow Brady’s lead and make sure his contract doesn’t constrict any future plans for strengthen the team further. But I certainly wouldn't be putting Welker on the same contractual level as Brady. At the end of the day Brady is our offense, Welker is not.
My bottom line is, I absolutely want him to stay, but not at any cost. I just don't want Welker screwing up any cap room we need for strengthening the team. This teams needs to add a serious outside deep threat. And as I said in an earlier post, I certainly don't want a poor man's Welker in Danny Amendola being brought into replace him.
I'm happy to offload Llyod, add some more freed up money into the space which will help hopefully towards Welker's contract. This team has some key needs, I just hope Welker will be happy to share the pie, because he can't have it all for himself.0 -
And this is why many Pats fans and analysts including myself believe the Patriots need to get their heads out of their own asses and this includes those fans who think Welker shouldn't get paid.
This not basing off past production is such a bullsh1t excuse and the more I hear the more it annoys me. Basically the Patriots and those fans who don't think he should be paid are once again predicting the future believing Welker wont be productive next season. Look where that got you in 2012 thinking that. As I said in other words we don't think you will be good enough next year to get paid. You might be one of the most productive players we have but not good enough to get paid.
Within reason obviously. I don't think Welker will be as good as he was for the last 5 years as he will be for the next 5. I think he is got 2 very good years in him at least. But the problem is the Pats don't want to take the risk and offer him more than a 2 year deal, someone more desperate will tho
If they don't judge contracts off past production then none of this is relevant right? Surely trying to bring this into the mix contradicts the whole argument of judging on past production.
But I have to laugh at this argument every time it comes up when Welker is mentioned. Welker is now the bad guy for wanting to get paid. Or he is only a product of the system yadda yadda yadda. The excuses come pouring in every time.
I've no problem with Welker trying to maximize his earnings from a short career that he will need for the rest of his life
Ask Tom Brady. But let me humour you for a minute. Tom Brady loves Welker and because of the "system" Welker is his top target. Ok Welker is the Pats top Target in the system. Remove the top target who is the most productive and where does that leave you when you can't find someone to fit the same system. When you have someone who is extremely productive in your workplace and does a job many others have struggled to do and doesn't look like he is slowing down yet, You take a chance on him.
Welker is obviously our best Slot WR and best in the league but we do have other options so we are not desperate to over pay; Edelman or Hernandez can probably do a decent job there maybe not as good but adequent
I honestly hope he accepts a ridiculous amount somewhere else and has an extremely productive season with them. Because I tell you when he does watch all the guys quite happy to dump Welker stand up and say Oh sh1t we should have kept him. Especially when we can't find anyone to replace him. Anyone who truly believes Hernandez and Gronk can fill the void left by Welker you are wrong on so many levels.
It's not as simple as you make it out to be. The Pats have a budget, the more we pay the less we can pay to fix the secondary.
I honestly hope he accepts a ridiculous amount from us and has an extremely productive season with us but everywhere else goes to sh1t because we have no money to invest anywhere else.
The argument goes both ways.
.0 -
Corvus Maximus wrote: »My bottom line is, I absolutely want him to stay, but not at any cost.
Exactly.0 -
Corvus Maximus wrote: »Disregarding another opinion like that is something I'd expect in the Soccer Forum and not from a fellow Patriot fan in the Patriots thread. I expect better from you tbh.
Firstly I was not disregarding your opinion. I was disregarding that same opinion that a large group of Pats fans have had for years about certain parts of the Patriots Way. This nonsense of everything the Pats do or say is the right way even when it goes against common sense or logic. To be that narrow minded like the Pats have been in past years by using the "oh we don't hand out contracts based on past performance" is ridiculous at best and a cop out by the Pats. One of the few things about the club and the Patriot way that annoys me.
Basically the Pats have always made a guess and a prediction as to a players future performance which in my eyes hasn't always worked out. But yet many see the Patriot way as gospel even when it is wrong.Who exactly were these people? Because I certainly wasn't one them. When things went south, I was mentally prepared for 2012 to be his last season. It was prudent for the team to prepare guys like Edelman to take over. Of course he couldn’t do it, but they had to try.
You may not have but many did. Don't take it so personal. I never said you specifically.If reports are true that Welker was annoyed about this, then he needs to cop himself on. It’s called forward planning, I don’t want us needing Welker until he can’t walk anymore. I want him to finish his career with us, but I also want a replacement ready to take over his production when the time comes.
Big difference than shipping someone out and blooding his replacement while he is still there. We ship Welker now and there is no backup and Welker knows that and Brady knows that and everyone including you know that. So why should he cop himself on.Not quite, he didn’t really shut and he made a major fúck up last season with these comments..
Realising how much he screwed up, he quickly back tracked in another interview. ....
He put up with his performances. I wasn't talking about his pre-season ramblings. We tagged him and this basically told him put up or shut up.If there’s one thing he should have learned from being a Patriot, it’s everything is done quietly, privately and in-house. Whining to the media is a cardinal sin. He might have had genuine reasons for being frustrated, but mouthing it in public was a very, very bad move imo.
The Pats haven't exactly handled everything perfectly over the years either. It is expected for players to get frustrated when they are not getting what they think they deserve.But it is what it is, they have to be realistic, he’s not 28 anymore. He’s a soon to be 32 year old, banged up slot receiver who’s best years are probably behind him. I just don’t want his contract eating up our cap space. He needs to get the reality that it’s all about the team. What Brady did last week was all about winning and creating more space for the teams needs. Welker should have learned from this.
The biggest problem with the Pats and Welker is we don't want to offer he a long term deal at cost. It seems Kraft and co are only going short term and the problem with short term it is hard to structure a big deal and save cap space. Irony is had they given him a 2-3 year contract last year we probably could have saved space.
As for Brady he is still getting what he wants. Yes he did us a huge favour re-structuring and losing 3m odd on his total deal but his guaranteed money is a lot higher now than it was previous. Brady still came out the winner in it. He lead by example but is still getting rewarded for it. Welker is just trying to get what he deserves.It tells me he is naturally Brady’s favourite comfort blanket, but after 6 years playing with him, he’s bound to be isn’t he?
Comfort blanket? Oh come on for fook sake.Brady gets the money? The guy has given us bargain basement value. So maybe Welker should follow Brady’s lead and make sure his contract doesn’t constrict any future plans for strengthen the team further. But I certainly wouldn't be putting Welker on the same contractual level as Brady. At the end of the day Brady is our offense, Welker is not.
See my post above for the contract stuff once again hardly bargain basement. Bargain basement for the team with cap space but Brady still comes out on top. But the fact is Welker is looking for his slice of the action and without him that offense would have struggled over the last 5 seasons. If you think other wise, there is nothing more I can say.
What is boils down to right now is the Pats don't feel Welker can or will put up the same consistency and are using this as the age old Patriot way excuse of doing things. There is more evidence that Welker still has ability to stay consistent baring injury than there is against him staying consistent. Typical Pats not wanting to take risks because of the Patriot way.0 -
Exactly.
So both of you basically want one of the most consistent WR in the NFL right now to stay at a bargain price. Makes sense especially when the only proven WR we have right now that we can depend on are our Tight Ends.
So lets look at Receiving Corp
Welker - Testing FA
Lloyd - Almost Gonzo most likely
Branch - Getting on in years.
Edelmen - Not quite Welker but has ability
Slater - Special Teams
Gronk - Gronk
Hernandez - Hernandez
Right now if you put a strike through Lloyd and Welker look what we are left with. Now people have talked about bringing in someone else. Do the Pats then pay this guy coming in a bargain basement wage? Many of the names being mentioned will cost us no matter what way we swing it. And then you battle with them fitting in and knowing the system.
Looking at the above give me no confidence. And this is the main reason why we should take a punt on Welker and look to the FA and Draft to find the gem in the rough. If Gronk or Hernandez get injured we are fooked simple as with no Welker.0 -
Firstly I was not disregarding your opinion. I was disregarding that same opinion that a large group of Pats fans have had for years about certain parts of the Patriots Way. This nonsense of everything the Pats do or say is the right way even when it goes against common sense or logic.
Fair enough, but I can assure you I’m not one of them. Last year was a prime example, why did they waste money on so many busted free agents last season? The best guy we got was Gregory and that’s not saying much. Yes many contracts weren’t hug, but they added up to quite a few wasted millions. Money that could have tied up the Welker deal last season.
I’m also getting sick of Belichick’s love of ‘versatility’, we have a lot of ‘versatile’ players on the roster, we don’t need any more. I think this has cost us big down the years. When we should have been signing a couple of key specialist play makers on both sides of the ball.To be that narrow minded like the Pats have been in past years by using the "oh we don't hand out contracts based on past performance" is ridiculous at best and a cop out by the Pats. One of the few things about the club and the Patriot way that annoys me.
The pats have screwed up their fair share of contract negotiations in the past. They could be doing it right now with Welker for all we know. And we won’t know until the dust settles. But I don’t believe in ‘rewarding’ a player on past performances. The NFL isn’t a charity, you can look at past performance and gauge what can be achieved over the course of a new contract. But rewarding players based purely on what their old numbers were? Well that’s potentially franchise suicide imo.Big difference than shipping someone out and blooding his replacement while he is still there. We ship Welker now and there is no backup and Welker knows that and Brady knows that and everyone including you know that.
And that’s what I have said in this thread already...Corvus Maximus wrote: »I don’t want us needing Welker until he can’t walk anymore. I want him to finish his career with us, but I also want a replacement ready to take over his production when the time comes.
We need to work on Welkers replacement while we have Welker. Instead of just working Welker into the ground and then have no one step up when he’s gone.So why should he cop himself on.
This is what I said....Corvus Maximus wrote: »It was prudent for the team to prepare guys like Edelman to take over. Of course he couldn’t do it, but they had to try.
If reports are true that Welker was annoyed about this, then he needs to cop himself on. It’s called forward planning
And this is why I said it.......
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000147041/article/report-wes-welker-holds-mild-disdain-toward-pats
http://bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/03/06/report-wes-welker-has-mild-disdain-toward-patriots/3koktmGsalGzmp6zstpC2I/story.html
http://nesn.com/2013/03/report-wes-welker-has-mild-disdain-for-patriots-is-miffed-over-treatment-from-last-season/
So that’s why I said he needs to cop on. He has disdain for a lack a reps from early last season. Yet it was patently obvious to everyone that Edleman & Co needed to be developed further for a potentially LAW – Life After Welker scenario.
The team have to plan for his eventual heir and this will have to happen while he is still a Patriot player. If Welker isn’t mature enough to appreciate this simple fact, then I find that laughable. I find this attitude a little to sulky and diva like tbh.I wasn't talking about his pre-season ramblings. We tagged him and this basically told him put up or shut up.
I wouldn’t be shedding a tear for him over that, he did get $9.5 million after all.The Pats haven't exactly handled everything perfectly over the years either. It is expected for players to get frustrated when they are not getting what they think they deserve.
The Pats have had their fair share of messed up contract negotiations, but Welker’s slip of the tongue didn't help matters last season. Frustration is one thing, but shooting yourself in the foot is another.It seems Kraft and co are only going short term and the problem with short term it is hard to structure a big deal and save cap space. Irony is had they given him a 2-3 year contract last year we probably could have saved space.
I agree and if we didn’t waste money on all the busted free agents last season, then we could have tied up a Welker deal last year.As for Brady he is still getting what he wants. Yes he did us a huge favour re-structuring and losing 3m odd on his total deal but his guaranteed money is a lot higher now than it was previous. Brady still came out the winner in it. He lead by example but is still getting rewarded for it. Welker is just trying to get what he deserves.
Everyone came out a winner from that deal, yes he did increase his guaranteed money, but saved us millions while doing so. Compare his contract to Brees or Mannings and you’ll really see how much money he gave away for the good of the team.Comfort blanket? Oh come on for fook sake.
That's exactly what he is. He's been there the longest serving on the receiving corp, he's the one Brady is most familiar with and he’ll reach to him because of this fact.What is boils down to right now is the Pats don't feel Welker can or will put up the same consistency and are using this as the age old Patriot way excuse of doing things.
I wouldn’t be willing to gamble more than three years on Welker right now. If he wants a 5 year contract then he should go elsewhere. Aging slot receivers traditionally don’t hold a high value in the NFL.
For whatever reasons and we could debate it forever. Our offense has come up short in some big games in recent years. An offense that Welker has been part of incase we forget. We need to keep him and just add to our offense. I just don’t want any contract he gets eating up all our manoeuvring room.0 -
Advertisement
-
I honestly hope he accepts a ridiculous amount somewhere else and has an extremely productive season with them. Because I tell you when he does watch all the guys quite happy to dump Welker stand up and say Oh sh1t we should have kept him. Especially when we can't find anyone to replace him. Anyone who truly believes Hernandez and Gronk can fill the void left by Welker you are wrong on so many levels.
Really? You hope Welker leaves, plays well elsewhere, just so you can say I told you so?0 -
Really? You hope Welker leaves, plays well elsewhere, just so you can say I told you so?
Not a told you so don't know why you would assume that but what it will prove to the Patriots organisation is they made a mistake. I am firm believer of if you are doing a job better than anyone else especially one that is hard to fill you should get paid.
Sure Professional sports is a cut throat business but if Welker can't get paid by the Patriots he should look elsewhere. In an ideal world he would accept what the Patriots have offered him and stay and continue on what he started. But I can understand any player of his calibre wanting to stay on a high contract when he is still performing at a high level. It will be the Pats loss if he leaves.
But hey if any Pats fan wants to believe I hope he leaves just so I can say I told you so, that is your opinion. It wont be the right one but hey whatever floats your boat.0 -
I gotta say TO that one thing I've noticed over the years is that players who the Patriots don't pay the big bucks seem to have less than stellar careers afterwards, Seymour being the exception.
I fully expect that Welker and the Pats will get a deal done. I don't think Welker will get a whole pile of guaranteed money anywhere else. I'd imagine any deal he gets will be productivity related because teams are always unsure if a slot guy will work out.0 -
Not a told you so don't know why you would assume that but what it will prove to the Patriots organisation is they made a mistake. I am firm believer of if you are doing a job better than anyone else especially one that is hard to fill you should get paid.
Sure Professional sports is a cut throat business but if Welker can't get paid by the Patriots he should look elsewhere. In an ideal world he would accept what the Patriots have offered him and stay and continue on what he started. But I can understand any player of his calibre wanting to stay on a high contract when he is still performing at a high level. It will be the Pats loss if he leaves.
But hey if any Pats fan wants to believe I hope he leaves just so I can say I told you so, that is your opinion. It wont be the right one but hey whatever floats your boat.
I'm not sure how I misinterpreted your post when you clearly say:
I honestly hope he accepts a ridiculous amount somewhere else and has an extremely productive season with them. Because I tell you when he does watch all the guys quite happy to dump Welker stand up and say Oh sh1t we should have kept him. Especially when we can't find anyone to replace him. Anyone who truly believes Hernandez and Gronk can fill the void left by Welker you are wrong on so many levels.
I dont know what you expect people to make of that.
I hope he stays, and gets paid his worth. And if the Patriots dont value him as high as someone else and he leaves, then I do think they will have made a mistake.
But I honestly dont hope he accepts an offer elsewhere just to prove that they made a mistake.0 -
Lloyd had good enough numbers last season with 900+ yards, 74 receptions and 4 TD’s. But we all know he was a disappointment. He never turned out to be the deep threat we hoped for. His numbers are good because it’s Tom Brady throwing him the ball. The same applies to Welker, Brady makes every receiver look good. Welker wasn’t much till Brady lit him up when he came to NE. Christ, Brady would make my fridge look good catching a ball.
Welker’s real value is he knows his routes and where he should be on the field. Unlike Ocho who was just lost by the playbook. The only negative for me in bringing in a new guy, is the time it will take for him to bed in. So yes it would be great to keep Welker, but if he has an over inflated value of himself? Then we’ll manage fine without him.0 -
I gotta say TO that one thing I've noticed over the years is that players who the Patriots don't pay the big bucks seem to have less than stellar careers afterwards, Seymour being the exception.
I agree with you there EE.Corvus Maximus wrote: »Our history is littered with players who went elsewhere looking for top dollar and their careers plummeted after they left.0 -
I still think that Welker will test the free agency waters and eventually resign with the Patriots at a number that's the common ground between the two sides. The Pats offence needs Welker and he knows that it's an offence that lets him perform very well.
I can perfectly understand why Welker wants more money. He want's to be paid as a number one receiver even though he can't do the things that a traditional number one can. He doesn't have the size/speed to be a downfield threat so the Pats take it that they shouldnt pay him on a par with the contracts of even Bowe in Kansas.
It's crazy from the Patriots because even though Welker plays from the slot he is their dominant receiver and a consistent 1000 yard 100 catch man. I can understand why the Pats dont want to give him 11 million a year but their valuation of him is wrong. If they think that they can get someone to come in and be as productive as Welker that's fine but given the struggles that we've seen with countless wideouts trying to learn the playbook and be productive straight away it's long odds that they'll succeed.
Welker is 32 years old and has had six incredibly productive years at New England. I don't think that he should be paid on past production (he signed a contract that was acceptable in 2008) but his potential over the next few years is still to be their lead WR.
He came back incredibly strongly from his knee injury and for a slot receiver like Welker, that doesnt utilise speed as his primary weapon, there's not much chance of him suddenly falling off a cliff performance wise. His routes are precise, he has a great chemistry with Brady, he isnt overly disruptive in the locker room and most of all he is still the Patriots most important offence weapon after Brady.
Don't pay him 11 million but a 9.5 million per year deal for three years would surely be in the ball park of what Welker is expecting. He'll test free agency and might have someone willing to offer him a massive contract (I'm sure that the Seahawks and Niners would be more than willing) not to say the likes of Denver who could weaken a conference rival and give Manning a major upgrade over Stokley at the slot.
The risks of not paying Welker a decent wage are far greater than him not performing over the next three or four seasons. Brady's Superbowl window is closing so it's crucial to have as many pieces in place as possible over the next few seasons0 -
I'm not overly bothered with Welker's perceived lack of potential production elsewhere. I'm just concerned with his proven production here, and that to me is enough to say he's worth it. It might not be that simple when finances come into the equation, but when the former approach costs you one of your best, most important players whereas the latter keeps him on your team, then it can be that simple.
Is he as good as Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald? Probably not, but as long as he's putting up the numbers on the field to match them, why shouldn't the organisation put up the numbers off the field to match them too?
Sure, our system helps him put up those numbers. But our system relies on him to put up those numbers. The same way Detroit rely on Calvin to beat triple coverage for a jump ball, the same way Houston rely on Andre to outrun any defensive back in the league, the same way Arizona rely on Fitz to make impossible catches. The whole system argument is stupid. We don't have a system we plug players into, we have key players who we build a system around. The reason the current one is so effective is because players with talent like Welker are rare. The sheer amount of WRs who've fallen by the wayside in New England the last few years are testament to that.
We get it right a lot of the time, but letting Wes walk will be the biggest mistake this franchise has made in a long, long time.0 -
JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »Is he as good as Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald? Probably not, but as long as he's putting up the numbers on the field to match them, why shouldn't the organisation put up the numbers off the field to match them too?
Sure, our system helps him put up those numbers. But our system relies on him to put up those numbers. The same way Detroit rely on Calvin to beat triple coverage for a jump ball, the same way Houston rely on Andre to outrun any defensive back in the league, the same way Arizona rely on Fitz to make impossible catches
Can't agree more JaMarcus, for the Pats he is as important and valuable as the elite level wideouts in the league. Each team marks value in different ways and for the Pats passing game Welker is crucial. They have had time to try and draft and sign other receivers over the last six years but none, apart from Randy Moss, has had anywhere near the level of success that Welker has had.
Both sides need to sit down and agree a fair contract. Welker will see in free agency how difficult it is for a slot receiver to get the kind of contract he is looking for and the Pats have to realise that his value to the team is much greater than a typical slot guys and find a common ground somewhere below the typical number one value but above the typical slot value. Im not a Pats fan but I hope yous find a way because I love seeing Brady and Welker together0 -
Advertisement
-
We have failed miserably to replace Moss since he left and this lack of a real field stecthing WR, is a serious weakness for us on offense and that needs to be addressed. The likes of Occho was not the deep threat we hoped for. But aside from the reports of playbook difficulties, I think the real issue there was attitude. Ocho wanted to run his own routes and let Brady find him, believeing he had the talent to do so. That was never going to cut it in NE.
Fortunately, there appears to be some good depth in the WR postion in this years draft. So landing one of them is a clear priority. If we find a kid with a good footballing brain, give him a good camp and preseason, there's no reason he can't be out there come September. Find the right attitude and you'll find a player who will do well.
Welkers testing the FA is nothing more than some negotiating brinksmanship. It's a risky game to play with the Patriots, but I'm pretty confident he will be back on the roster for 2013. Brady puts him on a different level and he knows that and they have a strong off-field friendship. As I've said enough times by now, I just don't want him holding us to ransom.
The Pats are probably looking at Hernandez & Edelman (assuming their not injured) to cover the slot duties if Welker leaves. Ya we'll manage, Brady might not have his favourite toy, but he'll still have his options. But again as I've said, knowing Welker will always be out there is really invaluable to us and it's something none of the rest brings.frostie500 wrote: »Don't pay him 11 million but a 9.5 million per year deal for three years would surely be in the ball park of what Welker is expecting.
Before I read that, I was thinking a $27 million, 3 year deal @ $9 million a year was a pretty fair offer. But there's not much difference in what we were thinking there. But I do have a problem if Welker's agent is looking for something like a $47.5 million, 5 year deal at $9.5 million per year. That is just way to rich for me. If he was 28-29 then yes, but at 32? No way.0
This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement