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Getting power outside to a shed

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13

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    #62
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,327 ✭✭✭Merch


    hey all,
    It will be summer before I start doing my shed, thanks for the opinions and advice from all quarters, even if there are some differences of opinion.
    I've had plenty of hands on experience with electrical equipment (factory machinery) so I consider myself fairly handy, but if there's something I haven't come across I definitely will ask for advice (I never forge ahead blindly)
    Just wondering Robbie7730, the SWA does the steel armour have to be earthed too? I thought SWA was 3 cores, live, Neutral and earth and the armour is just protective, does what you say mean the armour is (bonded)/connected to the earth strands also?


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    #63
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    M cebee wrote: »
    don't think i've ever included for digging surely

    but they did say they'd do it:P

    Well we are told they said they would do it, but do you think a sparks would be expected to dig a trench out to a shed, and if he does not then he is a bad tradesman?


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    #64
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Well i think your wrong there, a sparks that does not dig trenches is a bad tradesman you think? Very wrong that statement in my opinion at least.


    Bad trades man......................yeah,when they all know,from the very 1st phone call and conversation, that a 30 foot trench is involved in the job.And thay all give me a rough idea of cost,over the phone and say no problem to it.

    Why waste someones time when you have no intention of doing the work that you know is involved in the job??

    Say or state to the customer that you dont do that sort of work,at the very 1st oppertunity,when you are asked about that sort of work.

    Theres good and bad in every trade.


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    #65
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Merch wrote: »
    Just wondering Robbie7730, the SWA does the steel armour have to be earthed too? I thought SWA was 3 cores, live, Neutral and earth and the armour is just protective, does what you say mean the armour is (bonded)/connected to the earth strands also?

    Yes the steel wire armour in the SWA has to be earthed. This is done through a special gland on both ends of the cable which clamp the steel wire, and the gland is earthed. This means if the cable is compromised, which takes some doing contrary to what you might believe from this thread, the steel wire will usually short to the live core and/or the neutral-earth cores can also short to the live core and trip the MCB.


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    #66
    M cebee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭M cebee


    pricing for the digging of trench would be highly unusual-but if the customer want's it:confused:

    i suppose you could add it on-and get someone in to do it-on domestic work

    never seen it in practise really


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    #67
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    a sparks would be expected to dig a trench out to a shed, and if he does not then he is a bad tradesman?

    They WERE ALL ASKED from the very word go,and all said "yeah,sure no problem"...............with regards your above post.;)


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    #68
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Yea i dont know how a sparks could price for a 2 foot deep 30 foot long trench to a shed over the phone to be honest. I would imagine it would be in excess of the price of doing the actual wiring. The concrete path would probably have to be cut, and re cemented. So a bad tradesman is an electrician who does not do building work now.


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    #69
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Yea i dont know how a sparks could price for a 2 foot deep 30 foot long trench to a shed over the phone to be honest. I would imagine it would be in excess of the price of doing the actual wiring. The concrete path would probably have to be cut, and re cemented. So a bad tradesman is an electrician who does not do building work now.

    THERE WAS NO CONCRETE PATH TO BE CUT OR RECEMENTED.


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    #70
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,327 ✭✭✭Merch


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Yes the steel wire armour in the SWA has to be earthed. This is done through a special gland on both ends of the cable which clamp the steel wire, and the gland is earthed. This means if the cable is compromised, which takes some doing contrary to what you might believe from this thread, the steel wire will usually short to the live core and/or the neutral-earth cores can also short to the live core and trip the MCB.


    Now that I've read it, it makes sense to earth the armour which is effectively a conductor/potential conductor in the event of any incident that would damage the SWA (however unlikely that is, more so unlikely once it's in my backgarden).


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    #71
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    paddy147 wrote: »
    THERE WAS NO CONCRETE PATH TO BE CUT OR RECEMENTED.

    Ok so put it another way, forget your experience with your 4 sparks who all said they will do a trench but then said they would`t.

    Do you think a sparks coming to wire a shed should be expected to dig the trench also, down to 2 foot, 30 foot long? And if they dont want to dig a trench that they must feel they are above it?

    And what is the problem getting the builders to did the trench?

    Well anyway, your one has slabs, lots would have a concrete path to go through, so you think now the sparks should re-level the sand and get the slabs back perfect, or in other cases they should re do the concrete path etc? I guess they are just keeping their snickers clean so.


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    #72
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Ok so put it another way, forget your experience with your 4 sparks who all said they will do a trench but then said they would`t.

    Do you think a sparks coming to wire a shed should be expected to dig the trench also, down to 2 foot, 30 foot long? And if they dont want to dig a trench that they must feel they are above it?

    And what is the problem getting the builders to did the trench?


    Robbie,I dont expect and never expect a person to do something,until I ask the person 1st.And until I get an answer back from them

    If they say no,right out from the word go,then fine,thats not a problem with me.

    I only expect a person to do something,when they asked if they do that or can do that (very 1st conversation and its discussed with them in detail) and they say "yeah,sure no problem".

    Then yes,I do expect the person to do it then.


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    #73
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    paddy147 wrote: »
    THERE WAS NO CONCRETE PATH TO BE CUT OR RECEMENTED.

    No but there was slabs to be lifted and replaced, and in other cases concrete would likely need to be dug up also.


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    #74
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    Robbie,Im bowing out of this now,as its taking away from the thread title,and other posters and their questions about wiring a shed and making it all work.

    Feel free to PM me instead,if you want to.

    Thanks.:)


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    #75
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    paddy147 wrote: »
    Robbie,I dont expect and never expect a person to do something,until I ask the person 1st.And until I get an answer back from them

    If they say no,right out from the word go,then fine,thats not a problem with me.

    I only expect a person to do something,when they asked if they do that or can do that (very 1st conversation and its discussed with them in detail) and they say "yeah,sure no problem".

    Then yes,I do expect the person to do it then.

    But if you have so much experience on industrial sites would it not have occured to you to get the shed builders to dig the trench?


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    #76
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    paddy147 wrote: »
    Robbie,Im bowing out of this now,as its taking away from the thread title,and other posters and their questions about wiring a shed and making it all work.

    Feel free to PM me instead,if you want to.

    Thanks.:)

    No its cool, that will do now.


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    #77
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    No but there was slabs to be lifted and replaced, and in other cases concrete would likely need to be dug up also.

    Some sharp sand,and then soil/sub soil under the 3 slabs/tiles,thats not concrete Robbie.There was no concrete to be dug up in the back garden,none at all.


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    #78
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    No its cool, that will do now.

    No problem so.

    thanks.:)


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    #79
    Kashkai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,399 ✭✭✭Kashkai


    Wow. Ask a simple question and awaaaaaay it goes:D.

    We had a change of plan and decided (for monetary reasons, i.e. we're broke) to forget the new shed and to run power out to the existing one at the far side of the house. This will mean a longer cable run from the MCB through the attic and out through the far gable, down the wall, cut a trench through the concrete path and route the cable under the garden to the shed. About 90 - 100 feet in total.

    I'm going to buy the cable, run it myself, including drilling through the walls and cutting the path and digging a trench in the garden to the shed. I was going to put the cable in a plastic waste pipe underground.

    Can someone advise me what cable to buy (can I get it in a white sheath or is it all in black?), where to buy it and if the plastic pipe is a good/bad idea? The cable run under the garden will never be disturbed in the future (trust me on this) so I don't think I need to dig too deep.

    One final thing... we already have lights out in this shed that are controlled by a switch inside the house that turn the patio and shed light on. Can I run a spur off this for sockets somehow by turning this powerline to a permanent "on"? Probably not but thought I'd ask just in case as it would save me a lot of hassle.


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    #80
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Its 3 core swa cable you need, putting it in a plastic pipe is never a bad idea, 3 x 6 swa will proboably do for most applications in a shed at that distance.
    Is it a 2 story house or a bungalow?


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    #81
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    Prosperous Dave wrote: »
    Wow. Ask a simple question and awaaaaaay it goes:D.

    We had a change of plan and decided (for monetary reasons, i.e. we're broke) to forget the new shed and to run power out to the existing one at the far side of the house. This will mean a longer cable run from the MCB through the attic and out through the far gable, down the wall, cut a trench through the concrete path and route the cable under the garden to the shed. About 90 - 100 feet in total.

    I'm going to buy the cable, run it myself, including drilling through the walls and cutting the path and digging a trench in the garden to the shed. I was going to put the cable in a plastic waste pipe underground.

    Can someone advise me what cable to buy (can I get it in a white sheath or is it all in black?), where to buy it and if the plastic pipe is a good/bad idea? The cable run under the garden will never be disturbed in the future (trust me on this) so I don't think I need to dig too deep.

    One final thing... we already have lights out in this shed that are controlled by a switch inside the house that turn the patio and shed light on. Can I run a spur off this for sockets somehow by turning this powerline to a permanent "on"? Probably not but thought I'd ask just in case as it would save me a lot of hassle.


    3 core 10 square SWA (for future proofing purposes) and run it inside some 50mm hydrodare piping and then wrap some black and yellow warning tape around it.

    3 core 10 square SWA is just on 19mm thick an is around 4 euro a meter (thats what I paid for mine (40 meters of it).

    You will need at least a 20-21mm thick masonary bit and a good propper SDS hammer drill and also 20mm thick metal conduit for inside the garage,if you are using conduit.

    See my previous posts and pics for what Im talking about.

    SWA comes in black as standard,and you can just paint the cable sheeth to match the walls or house.

    Simples.:)


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    #82
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    paddy147 wrote: »
    SDS hammer drill and also 20mm thick metal conduit for inside the garage,if you are using conduit.

    25mm steel conduit is needed for that inside the shed if using conduit on the sub main.

    Simples.:)

    It would be great if it was always that simple.
    It can usually be done so as not to appear outside the house by going straight below ground level from inside. Depends on fuseboard location, but its usually possible.


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    #83
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Prosperous Dave wrote: »
    One final thing... we already have lights out in this shed that are controlled by a switch inside the house that turn the patio and shed light on. Can I run a spur off this for sockets somehow by turning this powerline to a permanent "on"? Probably not but thought I'd ask just in case as it would save me a lot of hassle.

    Its unlikely you could do this unless the cable out to the shed for the lights was at least 2.5mm. Even then, 2.5 might be too small for the distance. What are you intending running or using in the shed?


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    #84
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    25mm steel conduit is needed for that inside the shed if using conduit on the sub main.


    Just checked in my garage,and it is indeed 25mm metal conduit.

    Phew.:)


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    #85
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    paddy147 wrote: »
    Just checked in my garage,and it is indeed 25mm metal conduit.

    Phew.:)

    I have used the steel conduit a few times on 3x6 into block sheds up to the MCB boards, i dont think even that fits into a 20mm steel conduit, i always used 25mm anyway. The inside diameter of 20mm conduit is between 16 and 17mm i think, may even be slightly over 17mm.


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    #86
    Kashkai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,399 ✭✭✭Kashkai


    The house is a bungalow, so easy enough to run the cable from the MCB in the utility up into the attic and along the length of the house and drill out the far cable wall where it would be run down to the footpath (to be cut) and over to the shed. I want power out here to run a chest freezer, to allow me to use power tools and for a bit of soldering for the electrics in my rc planes. So to clarify before I buy the wrong cable, which one would I need for this job? The actual connection is to be done by a qualified electrician (and presumably a separate board will be needed in the metal shed?).


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    #87
    M cebee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭M cebee


    fit the 10 if possible


    no rcd for light/s and freezer


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    #88
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Prosperous Dave wrote: »
    . So to clarify before I buy the wrong cable, which one would I need for this job?


    Well if you put a 32 amp MCB in the house to feed the shed, which would be more than enough to power lights, sockets, freezer, and power tools, then 3x6 square swa cable will do fine. So if you believe you will only ever have a couple of lights and sockets, and a circuit for the freezer, 6 square will do.

    If you think you might want to have more power requirements at a later date, then 3x10 square SWA with a 40 amp MCB feeding it would be better, and overall would be recommended. You could probably power the new shed from this if you ever built it in future. Or if you ever put a washing machine, dryer out in the current shed etc the 10 square is better.

    I could of went flyin there and had a look:D. Was out the other day in big thermals flying the FPV, its mad to see the altitude increasing on the screen altitude reading with no motor running.


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    #89
    Bill Electrical Aprentice
    Registered Users Posts: 40 ✭Bill Electrical Aprentice


    Electricians have a clean job most of the time.People always say this well to the people that say it why didnt ye become one so if its such an easy job, such a load of **** talk.Maybe because most of the people who dig the trenches on site are to thick to be an electrician in the first place..............


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    #90
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    Bill Electrical Aprentice wrote: »
    Electricians have a clean job most of the time.People always say this well to the people that say it why didnt ye become one so if its such an easy job, such a load of **** talk.Maybe because most of the people who dig the trenches on site are to thick to be an electrician in the first place..............


    Alot of people on site or who dig trenches are not "thick" as you so crudely and stupidly put it,so you might want to be carefull what you say and who you slag off here.

    I regulary work on site and am in the IT and networking and fibre optic business end of things.Im inteligent,I have to be,as I deal with major multi national and international business clients on a daily basis on building sites and in office blocks,but Im also not afraid or unwilling to get my hands very dirty either.

    I get stuck in and get the job done,whether its hard graft or not,whether its underground,indoors or outdoors in external trenches and having to dig them or drill through walls, or whether I will get dirty or not.Some of my job is in nice clean dry enviroments,but I often have to work in quite dirty and horrible enviroments,dig trenches and also work in underground sewage pipes and in waste water treatment plants,and I dont complain,as thats part of the job sometimes and thats whats required of me,to get the job done.

    Work is work and money is money.

    Be carefull who you call thick and who you slagg off,because there might be people here that may actually know you and things like this can come back to haunt you.











    Also,judging by and reading your "9 posts",so far on this forum, you are in no position to be calling anyone "thick",or slagging them off,as you have a hell of alot to learn yourself.



    The term "red faced" and also "egg on the face" springs to mind here.


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    #91
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    A well the real intelligent people are the ones who invented or discovered electricity,ic engines, jet engines, computers, induction motors, concrete, steel etc etc, the vast majority of the rest of us are just benefiting from and using the works of their genius.


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