Childbirth

trebor28

right so ladies,
a little bit of background first.
my brother has just had a kid with his OH.
and today my sister and i were talking about the mother of the child and how she wasnt been given any pain medication by the staff.
my sister was claiming that it was just that hospital and others would give out the medication no bother at all.

then i tried to bring up the point that how come women got so "damaged", (for the want of a better word), during child birth.
the reply i got was "men".

men were the reason that women had problems during childbirth and needed stitches etc.
i was half laughing, saying "men".
we had a big argument about this, i tried to stay cool about it but she was getting quite heated she even said "i'd hate to see the woman you will end up with!"

i cant remember everything that was said because it went on so long and it changed slightly off childbirth and more into general social issues, but she blamed men for women having hard time during childbirth.

(went into women not having the vote til recently, how the head of the hse is a man, i was trying to saying that it take two to tango etc.)

she was making out that men made the rules, and that because men dont have children they dont allow for what it is really like etc.

now i know the majority of western medicine was pioneered by men and therefore when it comes to childbirth that there would be issues with men not knowing what it is really like to have kids.
but surely in this day and age labour/maternity wards etc are been run by women so therefore things would have changed and it wouldnt be as hard on women during childbirth?

my sister was saying that down in cork there is a baby boom and that its run like a factory where women are given drugs to speed them up or slow them down to fit into a schedule.
now this may be the case but surely that isnt the fault of all men everywhere?

our minister for health is a woman after all, surely she can put some measure in place to ensure that women have a better time of it during childbirth??

anyway the original point i was trying to make is how come women suffer so much during childbirth nowadays?
i grew up on a farm so have seen lots of mammals been born without as much complications and most have young by themselves.

can we put it down to just the fact that humans have increased in size with advances in our medical knowledge etc?

surely humans would not have survived through all the years with all the complications if there was little or no medical knowledge in the past??

i am not claiming to know everything about childbirth just looking for some input.
not looking to offend anyone just want to have a discussion on this topic.

(hope the location is ok mods)

please dont kill me.

Silverfish

I fail to see how really bad biological design is the fault of men.

It's like it went

Design Team : "okay, so this is conception!"

Management: "that's great! Fantastic, we love it! Then what"

Design Team: "...then the female carries it for 9 months, and forces it out this small hole here"

Management "er.... then what?"

Design Team: "...Then we went for lunch, now we're here"

Management : "Okay well the project is overbudget, so we'll mark it completed. The females won't like it, but that's Marketing's problem"

Marketing: "..uuuummmm....."

trebor28

i have some theory's and questions to ask but i want to see a few more replies first.

Acoshla

But women routinely *did* die during childbirth for hundreds (thousands?) of years, before emergency C-sections were readily available they died if the baby got stuck in the birth canal, they died from massive bleeding, I'm sure infections were rife from the placenta not being delivered totally and other factors, babies died during birth for a plethora of reasons, if they were breech, all things that are greatly reduced these days.

Modern medicine has made massive improvements to the childbirth process, the majority of "suffering" that healthy women having a normal pregnancy experience is pain and tearing, caused primarily by the pelvis (baby moving between your bones, BETWEEN YOUR BONES!!), contractions and the general strange design of women. I heard a doctor speaking once on the radio and he said that the two worst designed parts of our bodies are our necks and women's reproductive organs/genitals (think of how easily women get UTI's because the urethra is so close to the other bits making germs travel up there pretty quick!) Isn't it that when we developed the ability to walk on two legs our pelvises had to change and became narrower, making childbirth more difficult.

Anyway, childbirth these days is a hell of a lot more advanced. Women are monitored, the baby's heartbeat is checked for signs of distress, they know so much and I'm pretty sure most midwives, doctors and nurses do as much as they can to help women have a good delivery.

All I know is if I do it I'll be demanding all the drugs they have

ztoical

trebor28 wrote: »

anyway the original point i was trying to make is how come women suffer so much during childbirth nowadays?
i grew up on a farm so have seen lots of mammals been born without as much complications and most have young by themselves.

can we put it down to just the fact that humans have increased in size with advances in our medical knowledge etc?

Farm animals are well looked after even if they deliver on their own, their general health is usually much higher then for an animal living in the wild and you'll find there is still plenty of complications on farms.

As Spadina says women did routinely die in childbirth right up till very recently. It's something I think alot of people forget, alot like we get now with vaccines and people not understanding the massive impact they have had on our health. Maternal death rates were very high up until the 1900's - we're taking 40% in some places and thats just womens deaths not infant deaths. Look at current global maternal mortality rates and you find that only 1% now occur in the developed world.

trebor28 wrote: »

surely humans would not have survived through all the years with all the complications if there was little or no medical knowledge in the past??.

The most basic of medical knowledge such as washing your hands in hospitals wasn't established practice until quite recently. Human can and did survive but we didn't have the population sizes that we have today. Childbirth mortality, infant mortality, plauges like smallpox and general life stuff kept numbers low.

Wibbs

Big issue for modern humans are the size of our heads. Women's hips can't realistically get much wider and still be useful for walking upright, so it's a trade off. Human babies get around this by having soft heads at birth and by being born premature compared to other primates. A newborn human baby is pretty much still a foetus.

upinthesky

women are designed to have babies i think if there was no pain relief that they would cope i think it depends on the midwife some would be delighted to give you pain relief while others will not give it as quick

lisar816

lisar816 wrote: »

women are designed to have babies i think if there was no pain relief that they would cope i think it depends on the midwife some would be delighted to give you pain relief while others will not give it as quick

We're "designed" (by who) to die too, doesn't mean it's a good thing

Das Kitty

lisar816 wrote: »

women are designed to have babies i think if there was no pain relief that they would cope i think it depends on the midwife some would be delighted to give you pain relief while others will not give it as quick

It's totally up to the woman whether she has pain relief or not. The only restriction is if the anaesthetist is busy it can take a while or it could be too late in the game.

Yeah, women could cope without it, but why should they if they don't want to when the pain relief is available?

I don't see how the negative aspects of childbirth can be the fault of men.

BTW I recommend the Gas and Air, fantastic stuff.

Connie_c28

lol I used to have this conversation with my then OH all the time

Teenage years (usually)
Boys = lovely wet dream ok so they have a slight embarrassing stage with the aul voice
Girls = get periods and all that comes with it sore boobs, hormones etc

To have a baby
Boy= have sex, cum (so enjoyment) and then wait for the baby (ok I'll give you if they stick around they have to deal with the hormones :P
Girls= sex, hormones, sore boobs, expanding waist, stretch marks that never go away!

Birth

Boy= mine had nail marks on his arms - I think this pain should be shared (only joking it was actually an accident the contraction came unexpectedly)
Girl= give birth through a hole which is similar to squeezing a melon from your nostril.....ok an expanding nostril

Afterbirth= boy has (hopefully) joy of his child
Girl= has the joy of her child birth, maybe added with stitches and followed by embarrassing leakages and depending on if you breast feed or not cracked nipples :O to add to the stretch marks.

But in all honesty I wouldn’t swap the place of giving birth with the man. I think being pregnant and giving birth is the most beautiful thing I have ever experienced and although yes there are some horror stories about the actual labour some aren’t so bad but you never really hear about these.
Personally I suffered terrible with bad period pains in my teens and my labour wasn’t much worse. I had no pain relief or even gas and if I ever have another pregnancy I would hopefully be in a position to do the same.

I don’t blame boys for it because as someone said it takes two to tango so girls closing those legs if you want to stop the risk :P
I actually thank boys and at the minute (not literally as I type obviously) enjoy practising how to have the baby stage again and again
just so if I do ever want to partake in the giving birth bit again I never forget how to get there :P

upinthesky

Das Kitty wrote: »

It's totally up to the woman whether she has pain relief or not. The only restriction is if the anaesthetist is busy it can take a while or it could be too late in the game.

Yeah, women could cope without it, but why should they if they don't want to when the pain relief is available?

I don't see how the negative aspects of childbirth can be the fault of men.

BTW I recommend the Gas and Air, fantastic stuff.

oh i agree i have 3 children first by c section second had the epidural and third without anything the epidural was the best thing ever invented!

metrovelvet

Obstetrics is experimental medicine. Once you register in a maternity ward/hospital your body is not your own.

For centuries and still in parts of the world outside of the west, women can walk and be mobile while in labour, they can crouch, squat, hands and knees, whatever works for them. Louis XIV decided he wanted to see his baby when it was born. That is how the tradition of lying down horizontally came to be de rigeur. This standard position is for the benefit of the osbstetricians, traditionally male and not for the woman giving birth, and usually with a monitor strapped behind you. Now with litigation at an all time high so are cesarians. Obstetrics are yet another extention of the philosophy that women are not to be trusted with their bodies.

metrovelvet

metrovelvet wrote: »

Obstetrics is experimental medicine. Once you register in a maternity ward/hospital your body is not your own.

For centuries and still in parts of the world outside of the west, women can walk and be mobile while in labour, they can crouch, squat, hands and knees, whatever works for them. Louis XIV decided he wanted to see his baby when it was born. That is how the tradition of lying down horizontally came to be de rigeur. This standard position is for the benefit of the osbstetricians, traditionally male and not for the woman giving birth, and usually with a monitor strapped behind you. Now with litigation at an all time high so are cesarians. Obstetrics are yet another extention of the philosophy that women are not to be trusted with their bodies.

I heard that about him before - it's funny, I had always wondered why women in star trek did it standing up before I'd heard that ! made sense then!

trebor28

one thing i dont understand is that during labour the womans measurements are taken for dilation.

and it seems they always go at 10cm.

10cm is 4 inches (how big are your nostrils connie_c28?):D

anyway, how can they always just go with the birth when the women reaches 10 cm?
surely all babies are not the same size and therefore each birth should be taken on its own merits and not "oh shes at 10cm lets go!"

also im not exactly sure on how you would go about it, but surely some kind of stretching should be involved to get the womans body ready for whats about to happen.

metrovelvet

trebor28 wrote: »

one thing i dont understand is that during labour the womans measurements are taken for dilation.

and it seems they always go at 10cm.

10cm is 4 inches (how big are your nostrils connie_c28?):D

anyway, how can they always just go with the birth when the women reaches 10 cm?
surely all babies are not the same size and therefore each birth should be taken on its own merits and not "oh shes at 10cm lets go!"

also im not exactly sure on how you would go about it, but surely some kind of stretching should be involved to get the womans body ready for whats about to happen.

You can take pregnancy yoga to prepare you, using birthing balls, any number of things.

What I dont like about epidurals is that you cant feel anything from the waist down, its like half of you has disappeared and it's hard to control something that is no longer there.

kippy

Sorry, just weighing in here, due to a conversation that was had yesterday.

While all the developments in medicine and knowledge of what is best for baby and mum may have lead to better practices (C section, pain relief, less deaths at childbirth etc) they have also lead to generally bigger, healthier babies. Bigger being the main issue.
The babies are looked after better (Better might be the wrong word, but we know more about what is good for them now), they get more of the vitamins they need and as a result are born, usually, bigger.
This of course leads to other issues.

ztoical

trebor28 wrote: »

one thing i dont understand is that during labour the womans measurements are taken for dilation.

and it seems they always go at 10cm.

10cm is 4 inches (how big are your nostrils connie_c28?):D

anyway, how can they always just go with the birth when the women reaches 10 cm?
surely all babies are not the same size and therefore each birth should be taken on its own merits and not "oh shes at 10cm lets go!"

also im not exactly sure on how you would go about it, but surely some kind of stretching should be involved to get the womans body ready for whats about to happen.

When they say 10cm what they mean is she is fully dilated. It does not mean it's exactly 10cm but that the cervix has opended to it's widest point. That's normally around 10cm which is a decent enough space for an average size babies head and shoulders [if you look on youtube you can find some animated videos of a baby coming out from the womb and you can see it must go through a series of twists and movements in order to fit out]

Midwives/doctors don't just base it all on a women being fully dilated that's just something people have been use to from watching too much tv [like the obession with getting towels and hot water:rolleyes:] The use a system known as a Bishop Score that is a scoring system to judge what stage a woman is at and what if any issues may come up, the biggest one being the position of the baby. The baby actually has to do alot of work during childbirth, it needs to be sitting in the right start postion and then needs to move during the birth.

The reason humans have more issues during childbirth then other mamals is because we are bipedal [ie stand up right] and have the largest heads - one of those issues isn't so bad but both together is what results in some many issues in childbirth in humans. One of the downsides of having better health, better diet, and better living conditions is that we do end up having bigger babies.

Cheap Thrills!

trebor28 wrote: »

right so ladies,
a little bit of background first.
my brother has just had a kid with his OH.
and today my sister and i were talking about the mother of the child and how she wasnt been given any pain medication by the staff.
my sister was claiming that it was just that hospital and others would give out the medication no bother at all.

then i tried to bring up the point that how come women got so "damaged", (for the want of a better word), during child birth.
the reply i got was "men".

men were the reason that women had problems during childbirth and needed stitches etc.
i was half laughing, saying "men".
we had a big argument about this, i tried to stay cool about it but she was getting quite heated she even said "i'd hate to see the woman you will end up with!"

i cant remember everything that was said because it went on so long and it changed slightly off childbirth and more into general social issues, but she blamed men for women having hard time during childbirth.

(went into women not having the vote til recently, how the head of the hse is a man, i was trying to saying that it take two to tango etc.)

she was making out that men made the rules, and that because men dont have children they dont allow for what it is really like etc.

now i know the majority of western medicine was pioneered by men and therefore when it comes to childbirth that there would be issues with men not knowing what it is really like to have kids.
but surely in this day and age labour/maternity wards etc are been run by women so therefore things would have changed and it wouldnt be as hard on women during childbirth?

my sister was saying that down in cork there is a baby boom and that its run like a factory where women are given drugs to speed them up or slow them down to fit into a schedule.
now this may be the case but surely that isnt the fault of all men everywhere?

our minister for health is a woman after all, surely she can put some measure in place to ensure that women have a better time of it during childbirth??

anyway the original point i was trying to make is how come women suffer so much during childbirth nowadays?
i grew up on a farm so have seen lots of mammals been born without as much complications and most have young by themselves.

can we put it down to just the fact that humans have increased in size with advances in our medical knowledge etc?

surely humans would not have survived through all the years with all the complications if there was little or no medical knowledge in the past??

i am not claiming to know everything about childbirth just looking for some input.
not looking to offend anyone just want to have a discussion on this topic.

(hope the location is ok mods)

please dont kill me.

Your sis sounds as if she's gone a bit paranoid !! I don't think there is an organised conspiracy by 'men' to make childbirth or womens lives more difficult.

Feeona

Friends have told me that they were far more comfortable on their hands and knees when they were in labour, they could control the contractions far better in this position. Unfortunately they were turned unto their backs when the time came to give birth. At the time my friend jokingly said 'It's a man's world'.
Personally, I don't think men are the reason that women give birth in uncomfortable positions. Giving birth is tough for both men and women. There are many men who have to watch their wives/partners go through the pain of birth knowing full well that there's nothing they can do to stop the pain. Who likes watching their loved ones go through pain? There has to be another reason why giving birth can sometimes be a traumatic experience. I prefer to think that it's down to every woman's body being different, and the procedure they have in place now is a procedure that best suits most women.

Of course, my opinion could drastically change if I ever give birth :P

How Strange

Who 'turned' them into their backs? It's widely understood now that lying down during labour is not the optimal position and being upright is best so gravity can help. If you have an epidural then you'll normally labour and deliver on a bed.

The Sweeper

I work at a hospital. All our midwives are women. The obstetricians are men, but the midwives do most of the deliveries unless there are complications, and even then the obstetricians work with the midwives - an advantage of the maternity set up in a small hospital.

Our maternity patients can stand up, sit down, lie down, be on all fours, or give birth onto the floor while squatting at the end of the bed and hanging off the bedrail if they feel like it. Our midwives are up, down, round, sideways, with them when they're needed.

The disturbing thing for us is that many women still don't understand how birth works and here they are, giving birth.

One of the biggest issues is post-delivery bleeding. The blood loss after delivery is closely monitored and recorded in the notes. This is not blood from tearing or damage while the baby is on the way out. When you give birth, the placenta is attached to the wall of the uterus. When the baby emerges, the placenta tears away from the wall of the uterus and is also delivered because it's no longer required. The placenta separating from the wall of the uterus is what causes bleeding.

The number of women who don't understand that when they give birth is frightening. One of our patients got extremely upset with a midwife recently because she had a routine birth, minor tearing requiring a couple of stitches but no major dramas, and then went into a flat panic because she was bleeding and couldn't understand why because she thought the external wounds had all been dealt with.

pickarooney

The Sweeper wrote: »

The number of women who don't understand that when they give birth is frightening. One of our patients got extremely upset with a midwife recently because she had a routine birth, minor tearing requiring a couple of stitches but no major dramas, and then went into a flat panic because she was bleeding and couldn't understand why because she thought the external wounds had all been dealt with.

I think this ties in with previous comments about women being 'told' or 'ordered' to do things a certain way during delivery. An expectant parent really should have no excuse for not knowing what is going to happen before, during and after childbirth and should really have a solid idea of what decisions they will make when the time comes - hospital, home or water birth, with or without epidural, vaginal or c-section, bottle or breast...

Parenthood is a frightening sequence of life-altering decisions you have to take to give the best to your offspring and this begins long before the child draws its first breath. If you're not willing, as parents to make a firm decision about how you want your baby born and stick to it then you shouldn't go crying afterwards because you were 'forced' to do one thing or another afterwards. Granted, it's not the easiest thing in the world to stay calm and resolute on the big day but if you're not prepared to make the big decisions yourself, then the medical staff in attendance will have to do it for you.

metrovelvet

pickarooney wrote: »

I think this ties in with previous comments about women being 'told' or 'ordered' to do things a certain way during delivery. An expectant parent really should have no excuse for not knowing what is going to happen before, during and after childbirth and should really have a solid idea of what decisions they will make when the time comes - hospital, home or water birth, with or without epidural, vaginal or c-section, bottle or breast...

Parenthood is a frightening sequence of life-altering decisions you have to take to give the best to your offspring and this begins long before the child draws its first breath. If you're not willing, as parents to make a firm decision about how you want your baby born and stick to it then you shouldn't go crying afterwards because you were 'forced' to do one thing or another afterwards. Granted, it's not the easiest thing in the world to stay calm and resolute on the big day but if you're not prepared to make the big decisions yourself, then the medical staff in attendance will have to do it for you.

How can you know? There are so many variables and possibilities?

There are several NYC hospitals with BEAUTIFUL birthing rooms, jacuzzis in them, birthing pools, king sized beds for mom and dad and beautiful bassinettes and anything you could possibly want. And you know what? They hardly get used, because the first sign of any little thing that deviates from THEIR protocols of a normal birth and you are rushed downstairs into the normal labour ward.

They also only keep you half informed. When they suggest an induction, they dont tell you how tricky they are and how likely you will end up with a section, they just tell you 'if you don't do it the baby will choke and die on the mecunium' and pressure you and pressure you and pressure you and pressure you.

If you have been awake for 25 hours and are drugged and get sick or any number of possibilities, how clear headed are you going to be when you have three midwives and two surgeons staring at you telling you 'if you dont do this the baby will be x, the baby will be Y, you will be like _____________ for the rest of your life.'

seenitall

pickarooney wrote: »

I think this ties in with previous comments about women being 'told' or 'ordered' to do things a certain way during delivery. An expectant parent really should have no excuse for not knowing what is going to happen before, during and after childbirth and should really have a solid idea of what decisions they will make when the time comes - hospital, home or water birth, with or without epidural, vaginal or c-section, bottle or breast...

Parenthood is a frightening sequence of life-altering decisions you have to take to give the best to your offspring and this begins long before the child draws its first breath. If you're not willing, as parents to make a firm decision about how you want your baby born and stick to it then you shouldn't go crying afterwards because you were 'forced' to do one thing or another afterwards. Granted, it's not the easiest thing in the world to stay calm and resolute on the big day but if you're not prepared to make the big decisions yourself, then the medical staff in attendance will have to do it for you.

No. :mad: Sorry, but you really haven't a clue what you are talking about. Or you must have had an exceptionally good delivery experience where you were treated more as a human being in a vulnerable position and less as a number to be processed as quickly as possible, but tbh I can't really imagine that happening in a regular, public hospital setting.

I feel so foolish and naive now looking back on all my big, firm decisions on a birthing plan (I even remember talking to my gyn-ob in advance about the use of dummies, hilarious!), and going around with that sheet of paper (my birth plan) in my hand, when on the day it ended up being thrown out the second I came to the delivery ward.

The reality is that the moment you get there, you become nothing but a cog in a well-oiled machine that is geared toward getting you to squeeze that baby out in the least amount of time humanly possible and with the least hassle to anyone concerned possible. I told the midwife that I didn't want to be tied to the moniter all the time, I feel it is unnecessary. Talking to the wall might have been more productive. She said my water wasn't broken (although I was leaking like a faulty tap!), so she broke it for me (a very unpleasant experience). I wasn't dilating quickly enough for her liking; so it was on to the drip for me. Never mind what I want and that I wanted to have as natural a birth as possible, that doesn't even get a look in. She was a very exuberant and sunny person, yet if I voiced a preference, it would be quickly shot down by her medical opinion and authority. I would like to see you try to challenge a medical person in authority while under their care and in labour - I would greatly enjoy the experience.

The whole thing was a joke, but an unfunny joke. She was doing exactly what she wanted to do in order to get me to progress to her schedule, and before I knew it, I was all of a sudden experiencing labour that had gone from 2 to 7 on the Richter scale in 2 minutes flat. Well, of course I was pretty much beside myself by this point, the pain was now all of a sudden way to strong for me to be able to help it with the TENS machine, so I ended up begging for epidural. The epidural took away the pain but it of course slowed down the labour so that the baby went into distress (as often happens with epidural) and she had to be pulled out with forceps in the end.

Stick to a "firm decision" in a delivery ward? Fat chance. Instead, you quickly learn that you are to be stripped of your rights for making any decisions, by way of dangling "we know what's best, if you don't do it this way, you could be endangering your baby". Tell me, what remotely sane person wouldn't abdicate all their firm, resolute decisions and birthing plans in the face of the prospect of possible harm to their child? You, perhaps?

/rant over

pollypocket10

pickarooney wrote: »

I think this ties in with previous comments about women being 'told' or 'ordered' to do things a certain way during delivery. An expectant parent really should have no excuse for not knowing what is going to happen before, during and after childbirth and should really have a solid idea of what decisions they will make when the time comes - hospital, home or water birth, with or without epidural, vaginal or c-section, bottle or breast...

Parenthood is a frightening sequence of life-altering decisions you have to take to give the best to your offspring and this begins long before the child draws its first breath. If you're not willing, as parents to make a firm decision about how you want your baby born and stick to it then you shouldn't go crying afterwards because you were 'forced' to do one thing or another afterwards. Granted, it's not the easiest thing in the world to stay calm and resolute on the big day but if you're not prepared to make the big decisions yourself, then the medical staff in attendance will have to do it for you.

I am 33 weeks pregnant with my and have spent alot of the past 33 weeks reading books, forums, websites talking to obs and midwives as well as other mothers and I still have NO IDEA what to expect.

There are so many variables, many different situations that might arise and many options to take. Even among the experts there is disagreement about what is best to do in certain situations. I assume that the midwives and obs know better than me and have to trust what they tell me will be the outcome if we do this that or the other.

I work in healthcare and midwives have told me that they have certain protocalls & timelines they have to follow even though they are well aware that every pregnancy isn't the same and some should be allowed to progress naturally but in this modern time of regulation and litigation they have no option but to go by the book.

Childbirth is not something you can go into with firm decisions about how it should go.

A bit more on-topic though. OP I am guessing you are male and I think you should step back a little and not take it personally.

I get where your sister is coming from. Centuries of male dominance has led to a lot of things being they way they are. It's not to say that all men are to blame and there have been huge advances in recent times and society is obviously making progress with redressing the imbalance.

In addition to the influence of men hostorically I think there are a lot of factors that make childbirth hard including biological reasons and also the fact that medicine has failed to make advances in this area as very few pregnant women will risk being guinea pigs for experimental techniques and drugs.

pickarooney

The first step in any birthing plan should be for the parents to decide where the baby will be born and to visit that place and find out exactly what happens there, what freedom you're given and what the consequences of the decisions you make really will be. You need to ask the right questions of the right people beforehand and not complain afterwards that you weren't told.

metrovelvet

pickarooney wrote: »

The first step in any birthing plan should be for the parents to decide where the baby will be born and to visit that place and find out exactly what happens there, what freedom you're given and what the consequences of the decisions you make really will be. You need to ask the right questions of the right people beforehand and not complain afterwards that you weren't told.

You cant do that when what you are dealing with is experimental medicine. Because the experts dont know either. You dont even know if you will have the same OB because s/he might be on holiday. You dont even know if you will make it to the hospital. FFS.

Ickle Magoo

pickarooney wrote: »

The first step in any birthing plan should be for the parents to decide where the baby will be born and to visit that place and find out exactly what happens there, what freedom you're given and what the consequences of the decisions you make really will be. You need to ask the right questions of the right people beforehand and not complain afterwards that you weren't told.

My wee man arrived early and before we'd done any plans for anything - never mind canvassed the entire, obs, delivery, anaesthetic and surgical team to make sure all the right people were asked the right questions....in reality births can and often do go completely awry and with the best will in the world, birthing plans go out the window.

For my second child I spent 6wks fighting pressure to have a section - six weeks! Weeks of being told my uterus could tear, my child could end up brain damaged, why was I bothering to pay for my obs professional opinion just to ignore it, yadda, yadda, yadda. I'm not sure where you had your birthing experience but it doesn't sound like the same planet as mine!

seenitall

pickarooney wrote: »

The first step in any birthing plan should be for the parents to decide where the baby will be born and to visit that place and find out exactly what happens there, what freedom you're given and what the consequences of the decisions you make really will be. You need to ask the right questions of the right people beforehand and not complain afterwards that you weren't told.

But I wasn't told! I wasn't told that, although I had been encouraged to write out a detailed birthing plan in my ante-natal classes in that same hospital, my birthing plan would be as far as the mid-wife tending to me was concerned not worth the paper it was written on. Thus I feel the expectant mothers are falsely led to believe that their wishes will be respected, as all the questions you could presumably be talking about are answered in great detail in the ante-natal classes, you are even led on a tour through the labour ward etc. They are led to believe that the labour itself will also be such an open-communication, co-operative, respectful experience, when nothing could in reality be further from the truth.

My complaint is not that I "wasn't told"; it is that I was duped. But what is the good of complaining anyway, when this happens in all the public hospitals in Ireland on a daily basis to hundreds of women. I am certainly no exception with my experience, it is just that attitudes like yours rile me right up; like it was my fault that I had an unpleasant and undignified birthing experince. Because it wasn't. I was, like many other women, doing anything I could to have a degree of control over my experience; but it was never enough because I was deceived into believing I would have choices, when in actuality I wasn't allowed them when it came to the crunch.

metrovelvet

Birthing plans are as fictional as the Dublin Bus timetable. I dont know why they even bother telling you to do one.

You dont have any choice once you are in there. [Saying that a woman I know was allowed to take breaks off the feotal heart monitor for cigarette breaks!]

They don't tell you at all how interventionist it is. They dont tell you anything and if they do its with ambigious non commital answers.

upinthesky

the midwifes hospitals ext have way to much work load to be interested in your wants needs ext i dont think a birth plan is beneficial books websites tell you to make one and bring one but not once does anybody ask you for it well not in my experience anyway i think its just take it as it comes really anyone's birth plan worked for them?

Ickle Magoo

lisar816 wrote: »

anyone's birth plan worked for them?

I've heard quite a few birthing stories being exactly what the parents wanted and envisaged - but they do tend to be from countries that have excellent birthing facilities, plenty of birthing pools, home deliveries, midwife led birthing, birthing centres, doulas and so on...there seems to be a bit of a labour ward/cattle shed conveyor-belt thing going on here but I think other options are becoming more available and popular.

starlit

Yes women are suppose to have a better tolerance of pain than men so explains why women have been created to have babies. When that time comes I say if I do so naturally I'll have as much drugs to deal with the pain of childbirth chances I will be too lazy and not put with the pain and just go for a c section I can imagine the pain will be bad afterwards but at least I be less likely to end up with bad stitching.

upinthesky

snuggles285 wrote: »

Yes women are suppose to have a better tolerance of pain than men so explains why women have been created to have babies. When that time comes I say if I do so naturally I'll have as much drugs to deal with the pain of childbirth chances I will be too lazy and not put with the pain and just go for a c section I can imagine the pain will be bad afterwards but at least I be less likely to end up with bad stitching.

i would not advise a c section personally!

i had one on my first child and it was horrible afterwards
i had two normal births afterwards thankfully and it was much much better in my experience

Ickle Magoo

Eh, it's a complete myth that sections are the easy option - in the majority of cases, the recovery is much longer and harder - and as for stitches; post-section there are seven layers that need stitched together and it can sever nerves leaving your belly numb. I'd take vaginal delivery over section any day of the week - for pain, stitching and recovery time. :cool:

metrovelvet

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I've heard quite a few birthing stories being exactly what the parents wanted and envisaged - but they do tend to be from countries that have excellent birthing facilities, plenty of birthing pools, home deliveries, midwife led birthing, birthing centres, doulas and so on...there seems to be a bit of a labour ward/cattle shed conveyor-belt thing going on here but I think other options are becoming more available and popular.

NYC has all of those things. There is even one particular hospital which has GORGEOUS facilities and also for some reason a lot of women from the third world [I think it ties into it being a public hospital where the government covers it] and they are more free with letting the women crouch and squat or whatever, but even with that those beautiful facilities dont get used because of litigation fears and they get rushed down to the labour ward. In fact when I visited this facility when I was pregnant it was empty, not one woman was in it.

They also dont tell you about the 'cascade effect'. That is once one intervention is done, chances are there will be more to follow, so they balloon your cervix and then low and behold you are down in surgery and then you are on a catheter for kidney failure and then you are on amorphine drip and then you are surrounded by a coven of lactation consultants and then your baby is in the jaundice machine and getting the **** slapped out of him because he didnt get to scream the fluids out of his lungs during a normal labour. Bunch of bastards. I will NEVER listen to an OB again. [rant over... had to get it out my system.]

Acoshla

snuggles285 wrote: »

Yes women are suppose to have a better tolerance of pain than men so explains why women have been created to have babies. When that time comes I say if I do so naturally I'll have as much drugs to deal with the pain of childbirth chances I will be too lazy and not put with the pain and just go for a c section I can imagine the pain will be bad afterwards but at least I be less likely to end up with bad stitching.

See that's the attitude that has made people believe C-sections are the easy way out (pardon the pun). It's MAJOR SURGERY, in what other area of your body would you choose major surgery over something that your body is able to do itself (barring emergencies)? Your wound can get infected, you can't lift anything for ages, you have an impressive scar to show for it, and you would prefer these option just to "too lazy"?

pickarooney

seenitall wrote: »

My complaint is not that I "wasn't told"; it is that I was duped. But what is the good of complaining anyway, when this happens in all the public hospitals in Ireland on a daily basis to hundreds of women.

Do you not see the contradiction there? How can you not be aware of something that "happens on a daily basis to hundreds of women"?

dearg lady

I have to say, I'm stunned and shocked and quite scared having read all of this!! I literally had no idea things were so bad in maternity hospitals. It does seem harsh but treat someone in such a vulnerable situation like this.
I sure hope there are better options available when I get around to having kiddies...

metrovelvet

dearg lady wrote: »

I have to say, I'm stunned and shocked and quite scared having read all of this!! I literally had no idea things were so bad in maternity hospitals. It does seem harsh but treat someone in such a vulnerable situation like this.
I sure hope there are better options available when I get around to having kiddies...

There wont be. Its litigation driven. Unless you have a homebirth with a midwife, that is the only way out of it. That is if they are still legal by the time you have kids.

That, or have your kids born in the East or Africa. At this point I think Id rather give birth in an African plain if I could do it again.

dearg lady

metrovelvet wrote: »

There wont be. Its litigation driven. Unless you have a homebirth with a midwife, that is the only way out of it. That is if they are still legal by the time you have kids.

That, or have your kids born in the East or Africa. At this point I think Id rather give birth in an African plain if I could do it again.

Just out of interest, do you know how things are with regard to home births, would they try to talk someone out of it? Are there particular circumstances where it's not allowed?

When you say it's litigation driven, do you mean they don't want to get sued?

seenitall

pickarooney wrote: »

Do you not see the contradiction there? How can you not be aware of something that "happens on a daily basis to hundreds of women"?

No, no contradiction. I am aware of this wide-ranging problem now, of course. Before going through the whole experience I was too busy living a child-free and all-things-baby-unrelated existence to be bothered to learn about these things.

Much the same as yourself, it would seem.

pickarooney

seenitall wrote: »

No, no contradiction. I am aware of this wide-ranging problem now, of course. Before going through the whole experience I was too busy living a child-free and all-things-baby-unrelated existence to be bothered to learn about these things.

Yeah, that was pretty much the point I made in the beginning. Nine months plus of research time gone to waste.

seenitall

pickarooney wrote: »

Yeah, that was pretty much the point I made in the beginning. Nine months plus of research time gone to waste.

Yes. My experience of delivery is my fault for being naive and putting good faith in my local hospital and its staff, and certainly not the medical professionals' fault for deceiving women and treating them as brainless nincompoops.

Still, you needn't worry. Like metrovelvet, if there is a next time, it will be a different story. Nothing like experience to ensure it.

Men? WTF? Since when are men responsible for how the female anatomy works?
The mother's body gets messed up because it's forcing a small person out a hole that's usually only a couple of centimetres wide.
I'd also like to point out that females of other species suffer some sort of damage during the birthing process. So are men to be blamed for that as well? The entire notion is absurd.
Yes, the body does suffer some shocking damage sometimes. But for the most part what happens is minimal and heals up. Modern medicine has done nothing but make the whole process much safer and easier for women.

Ickle Magoo

pickarooney wrote: »

Yeah, that was pretty much the point I made in the beginning. Nine months plus of research time gone to waste.

Not necessarily - we spent a lot of time, effort and not inconsiderable cost locating and procuring the services of an obstetrician who claimed to be a proponent of vbac and who pooh-poohed our concerns regarding obs making such claims only to renegade at a later date - and then from 36 wks onwards got progressively colder feet despite no issues having presented themselves. I wasn't taking no for an answer and ignored the emotive protestations which I felt were based on his convenience rather than mine but it's easy to see how a first time mother or less determined and vocal woman would and are brow-beaten into making choices they are not particularly enamoured with - that is hardly the fault of the women in question. By their very nature obs are chosen for their expertise and I think it's obvious from reading parental websites, forums and books that some abuse that privileged position - whether to suit their own professional/private timetable or out of fear of litigation, if not a mixture of both.

It's naive in the extreme - not to mention patronising - to suggest that the mere presence of a birth plan and some research will somehow magically translate into a utopian controlled delivery in which parental choices are not coerced nor subjected to pressure by medical staff - certainly not on these shores, anyway.

metrovelvet

Deleted User wrote: »

Men? WTF? Since when are men responsible for how the female anatomy works?
The mother's body gets messed up because it's forcing a small person out a hole that's usually only a couple of centimetres wide.
I'd also like to point out that females of other species suffer some sort of damage during the birthing process. So are men to be blamed for that as well? The entire notion is absurd.
Yes, the body does suffer some shocking damage sometimes. But for the most part what happens is minimal and heals up. Modern medicine has done nothing but make the whole process much safer and easier for women.

I dont know if people mean men as in all men, but that obstetrics is designed by men, and for men [the doctors] and not for the women giving birth. Ok so there are more women OBs now, but the whole model has been designed to suit doctors who historically have been mostly men and the women now working in that system are also conforming to a western male model.

starlit

lisar816 wrote: »

i would not advise a c section personally!

i had one on my first child and it was horrible afterwards
i had two normal births afterwards thankfully and it was much much better in my experience

Spadina wrote: »

See that's the attitude that has made people believe C-sections are the easy way out (pardon the pun). It's MAJOR SURGERY, in what other area of your body would you choose major surgery over something that your body is able to do itself (barring emergencies)? Your wound can get infected, you can't lift anything for ages, you have an impressive scar to show for it, and you would prefer these option just to "too lazy"?

Ya I can understand that the recovery time and stitching can be a factor in both cases. The thing is what if you have an emergency or a severe tear a c section would be the only option. I know of someone who just had the gas and some drug can't remember the name of it but it was just a very strong pain killer and that was it, it was a tough birth for her but she recovered much quicker unlike someone else who got serious damage after having pushed the baby in one go and if she were to get pregnant again a c section would be her only option due to the severe degree of tearing in her first childbirth. She had so many drugs she didn't know what was happening and the contractions were too fast for the baby to cope with it. I know of someone whose first childbirth was a c section due to emergency and had the following two births naturally and was fine afterwards. I think bone structure has a part to play too as to how long the labours might last not sure if that is true or not. Any one else I know had a straight forward labour without any complications.

CK2010

metrovelvet wrote: »

How can you know? There are so many variables and possibilities?

There are several NYC hospitals with BEAUTIFUL birthing rooms, jacuzzis in them, birthing pools, king sized beds for mom and dad and beautiful bassinettes and anything you could possibly want. And you know what? They hardly get used, because the first sign of any little thing that deviates from THEIR protocols of a normal birth and you are rushed downstairs into the normal labour ward.

They also only keep you half informed. When they suggest an induction, they dont tell you how tricky they are and how likely you will end up with a section, they just tell you 'if you don't do it the baby will choke and die on the mecunium' and pressure you and pressure you and pressure you and pressure you.

If you have been awake for 25 hours and are drugged and get sick or any number of possibilities, how clear headed are you going to be when you have three midwives and two surgeons staring at you telling you 'if you dont do this the baby will be x, the baby will be Y, you will be like _____________ for the rest of your life.'

100% agree with you here. i dont remember them even telling me anything let alone asking me.

29 hours of very distressing labour (baby hadnt 'dropped/engaged' yet) and then baby went into distress and when my waters were finally broken the midwives got me in a panic by them being in a panic about the meconium passing already.
oh and i was 17 at the time so was already a bit panicked about the whole thing, and i had also had the pleasure of hearing a woman in the bed beside me earlier give birth naturally-cursing and begging for an epidural (the rest of the ward was 'evacuated' to the hall as it was too traumatic for them to hear this however as i was in the bed on the further side of this woman they didnt notice me!! )


straight afterwards i was bombarded with degrading comments about how a good mum tries to breastfeed and i should 'at least try', i was so distraught from the labour that my boyfriend had to stand up for me and tell them that they know and i know that ive already decided whats best on the issue. if he wasnt there i swear they would have bullied me into it.

then they had no bed for me so i was left in a weelchair in a busy hall for an hour and a half with numb legs and my baby left beside me in those clear cots screaming her lungs out cause i couldnt stand up to get her and nobody would pass her to me. (my bf left as they had told him id be put into a ward so he went to grab some bits for baby) they had told me to keep an eye on her breathing because she had passed the meconium before she was born, so i was getting panicked that i wasnt able to check on her.

missed lunch cause of this. hadnt eaten for over 29 hours and had done what i consider alot of hard work!! (admittedly they cant time when my child was born but they couldve made sure someone brought something over to me in the hall.)

then i was put on a public ward (i went semi private) and was not given dinner even though i had been asked what i wanted and they went round to everyone else. again,my bf went and asked someone where my food was and he was told 'oh she must have "missed out" :eek: (wtf?! its dinner not a go on a ferris wheel or something!), sorry, ask one of the dinnerladies to sort you out'- she brought back a slice of bread and a leaf of lettuce. 29 hours of labour, not able to eat, throwing up and i get a slice of bread to do me the night with a new baby! i was not a happy bunny!

next day i was asked how i was, given a once over, baby finally got a bath and we were told we need to leave cause they need the bed. (a bed i shouldnt have even been in!)

this is just a big rant now tbh! but my point originally was that they dont listen to what mother wants- we're not naiive enough to believe that the birth will go exactly how we'd like it (if it did it'd be pain free and very quick!).

also on the whole 'mans fault' aspect,i dont blame men for my bad experience but i do blame the set up of the hospital as a whole and the lack of communication between staff. i know the staff are all really busy and that they cant pander to new mothers but at the end of the day thats what they are-new mothers- and the staff should aim to make the transition to such as comfortable an experience as possible. im sure many women have left hospital feeling as utterly drained and let down as i did. and tbh im not surprised that so many mothers dont feel supported enough when their first experience of motherhood is so traumatic, and degrading and patronising in many cases. how on earth can woman suffering from PND seek support from these people when they really dont seem to care at all???

also, i went to all the parenting classes, read the books, did the research, knew what was happening each week during the pregnancy and what would happen during and after labour and i still found it all scary!

big long rant sorry! :D

The Sweeper

The 'pile em high, churn em out' ethos of major maternity hospitals is sad. If I were to give birth tomorrow (god help me - or a child of mine - I have no plans) it would be in the hospital I work in - a 30-bed hospital with no intensive care unit, but where the midwife attending me will often be all mine on my own - and if I'm lucky I might even have two or three midwives PLUS an obstetrician with nobody else giving birth in the hospital except me. And you don't even have to go private to get it. (You just have to move to the back arse of Australia. )