In light of these posts Dev made on the politics forum...

Wolfe Tone

I feel this thread is warranted in light of this exchange. Original thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056148643
Basically there where a few OT vaguely insulting posts which I responded t in a calm, dignified way, they where then deleted.......

DEV

None of the last few posts have anything to do with the topic. mussolini, you have been in the thick of it on this topic quite a bit, you might want to take a break and strumm you tried to fish for his first name and said he was indoctrinated, which I fail to see has anything to do with the topic.

both of you cool it.

MUSSOLINI

In fairness Dev I have been nothing but calm and dignified, so I don't think asking me to "take a break" or telling me to "cool it" is entirely fair. In fact such a post gives an impression(seen as the other posts are deleted) that I acted in a manner other than I did.

DEV

Musso, You're like a guest at a dinner party who wont shut up about everything. Its not *wrong* for someone to talk at dinner, and none of the topics are offensive but everyone ends up sitting around thinking "would that guy every give it a break". Sorry, but you dont seem to be getting the idea of letting anyone else have a say or just walking away.

DeV.

MUSSOLINI

I certainly don't think that is a fair thing to say at all.

DEV

I'm sorry , I dont mean to offend but your defense that each of your posts is in itself civil may be true, but on every thread about the north you and several others (from both sides) simply monopolise the thread until everyone else leaves and there is no discussion left to be had.

I was trying to explain that to you, and to be fair KeithAFC and others could learn the same lesson.

Sorry, now I'm way off topic. If you want to discuss this further we can on Feedback.

DeV.

Well, here I am. I feel those comments where totally unjustified, I was answering to posts directed at me in that thread, and was trying to contribute to it. I don't think what seems to be a personalized attack against me is warranted or should appear like that in a thread on politics, it is simply not fair, and is surely against the charter which everyone should at least try to follow, if only to set an example.

And as for Devs final post, monopolizing threads? Surely it is only natural that people like myself and keith would post a lot in threads which interest us?

What do you want me to do exactly?

Generally when a thread becomes an argument/debate between a handful of posters (say 2 or 3), then it would become more of a conversation than a discussion. Threads created on a public forum are generally for the public and when the aforementioned handful of posters "monopolize it", as deV put it, then it might put off other posters from commenting also, which could be seen as somewhat unfair to them. Generally it is advised to take such topics to private messaging, to allow for the discussion to go on.

Obviously I cannot speak for deV or anybody else, but that is the way I would see it.

sceptre

Did you report posts with which you have an issue to the Politics forum mods in the usual way? The little "report this post" icon in the bottom left of every post? After all, that's why it's there. As I haven't received any in relation to any of this, I'm guessing that's a no. Doing that would have been the appropriate thing to do first.

Wolfe Tone

sceptre wrote: »

Did you report posts with which you have an issue to the Politics forum mods in the usual way? The little "report this post" icon in the bottom left of every post? After all, that's why it's there. As I haven't received any in relation to any of this, I'm guessing that's a no. Doing that would have been the appropriate thing to do first.

Yes I certainly did. I reported the posts in question, some of which are deleted. 99.999% sure I reported Devs one too.

RoundyMooney

If this is in FB, it's hard for us plebeians to form any opinion on it, due to the deletions if indeed there are any.

Musso sez posts were reported, others say no, another confusion. Musso also sez posts were deleted.

That said, with all due respect to DeV, if you're contributing to the the thread, and it the responses aren't instantly objectionable (ya know, the whole black and white thing), do you feel you should direct the discussion as well?

Like the dinner party thing, and the landlord walks in, and tells an adamant guest that they're boring the others, and should take their fail and gtfo. Maybe so. But isn't that up to the tenant?

As I say, I and others possibly can't see it all, unfortunately. But I also know that DeV values his impartiality, and so should the rest of us. Admins (in the true sense of the word) operating in an even handed way online is rarer than one might think, and we are lucky to have one that does so. I'd hate to think that they couldn't have the freedom to participate as anyone else would without editorialising too, though.

GuanYin

I responded to your reported post for DeVore, My action was to close the thread, mainly because the original post question was answered (and to be honest, I'm not actually sure the thread should have been in Politics) and the thread had degenerated into a pointless loop.

Regarding DeVore's comment and whether it should have been actioned? It's hard to say, but I went with no - my reasoning is that although his comment was personal, it was, in my view, not intended to offend but rather an action of moderation on your posting style - he was basically trying to get you to understand how your posting style leads to the fallout we see in those types of thread.
It was implicit from his very first post that he was acting as a moderator of the forum, which he is of course, more than entitled to do.

In any case, my general view on insulting posts is that the wording of a post isn't as important as implied intention of the words. I am happy to stake my mod-ship on the belief that DeVore did not intend to offend.

To stave off suggestions that he is "above the law". We have already infracted an admin for a contribution in Politics, so that does not hold true and I know that if DeVore *did* feel he stepped over the line, he would enforce a ban on himself.

On the topic of the OP's posting style, it's my opinion as a moderator, with no vested interest in Irish politics, that his posting style can inflame, he certainly can also cross the line with the rules, but that isn't the general issue with these types of threads.

The issue is, posters on opposing sides don't want to discuss or debate, they want to show they are right. It's soapboxing and as a neutral observer, I'm often dismayed at how seemingly intelligent, well structured and reasonable points are treated because the opposing poster does not want to concede an inch of ground.

This then enters the realms of soapboxing and propaganda and it is something I feel we, as moderators, should be looking into. It's isn't the OP's fault that he engages in a culture that is tolerated, he knows no better and we can't sanction him for it.

We should move much more strongly against this style of debate in general and hopefully posters will either move with a more reasonable discussion style or go elsewhere for their soapboxing.

2c etc.

Wolfe Tone

GuanYin wrote: »

Regarding DeVore's comment and whether it should have been actioned? It's hard to say, but I went with no - my reasoning is that although his comment was personal, it was, in my view, not intended to offend but rather an action of moderation on your posting style - he was basically trying to get you to understand how your posting style leads to the fallout we see in those types of thread.

It is not hard to say at all tbh. Its quite clear. Would you have infracted me if I had done the same? You would have because I have been infracted for less.

It was implicit from his very first post that he was acting as a moderator of the forum, which he is of course, more than entitled to do.

Eh no, I didnt think so, and regardless, would you or any other politics mod post such an attack o the thread?

In any case, my general view on insulting posts is that the wording of a post isn't as important as implied intention of the words. I am happy to stake my mod-ship on the belief that DeVore did not intend to offend.

Thats bollcks, I have said things which were not intended to offend,(you banned me for a week for something like that) I was bloody offended, first he gave the clear impression that I had done something wrong(cool down, leave the thread) when I had done no such thing, then posted this personal attack(thats what it is) There was a clear impression given that I reacted to the troll in a way other than which I did.

Musso, You're like a guest at a dinner party who wont shut up about everything. Its not *wrong* for someone to talk at dinner, and none of the topics are offensive but everyone ends up sitting around thinking "would that guy every give it a break". Sorry, but you dont seem to be getting the idea of letting anyone else have a say or just walking away.

Is that acceptable to be posted on thread?

To stave off suggestions that he is "above the law". We have already infracted an admin for a contribution in Politics, so that does not hold true and I know that if DeVore *did* feel he stepped over the line, he would enforce a ban on himself.

Obviously he is "above the law" its his site but it is simply not fair to attack me in such a way.

On the topic of the OP's posting style, it's my opinion as a moderator, with no vested interest in Irish politics, that his posting style can inflame, he certainly can also cross the line with the rules, but that isn't the general issue with these types of threads.

I see nothing wrong with my posting style, it seems people object to the contents of my posts rather than the way in which I put them across.

The issue is, posters on opposing sides don't want to discuss or debate, they want to show they are right. It's soapboxing and as a neutral observer, I'm often dismayed at how seemingly intelligent, well structured and reasonable points are treated because the opposing poster does not want to concede an inch of ground.

Thats quite laughable, just ask scofflaw about the amount of pms I have sent him complaining about not being able to do just that. Em, no we do want is to debate. Look a any northern thread, half of them are trying to explain how people simply have their FACTS wrong, such as saying Omagh was a sectarian attack.

This then enters the realms of soapboxing and propaganda and it is something I feel we, as moderators, should be looking into. It's isn't the OP's fault that he engages in a culture that is tolerated, he knows no better and we can't sanction him for it.

Jesus Christ are you accusing me of soapboxing and of spewing propaganda? What sort of bollocks is that. Someone starts a "get the digs into republicans" thread, or someone starts a thread related to SF which inevitably becomes the same thing. Should that just be ignored? Most of the time when I post it is defending my viewpoint.

GuanYin

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I see nothing wrong with my posting style

And there in lies the crux of the problem

Wolfe Tone

Well done on ignoring the other points I made.


Dev was wrong to post like that on thread, he was wrong to make such a personal, insulting attack, he was wrong to tell me to "cool it" and give the impression that I had made heated/inappropriate comments, he was wrong, simple as, I want acknowledgement of such and an apology. And if he is half the man he appears to be I think he will do such.

GuanYin

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Well done on ignoring the other points I made.

You didn't make any points, you put your fingers in your ears and screamed NONONONONONO in response to an explanation of actions before telling everyone they're wrong and you're right.

Dev was wrong to post like that on thread, he was wrong to make such a personal, insulting attack, he was wrong to tell me to "cool it" and give the impression that I had made heated/inappropriate comments, he was wrong, simple as, I want acknowledgement of such and an apology.

DeVore is the benevolent dictator of boards.ie. He is an implicit mod of the entire site, whether he officially wants to be or not.

If he says "cool it" you take it as an instruction and cool it.

Wolfe Tone

GuanYin wrote: »

You didn't make any points, you put your fingers in your ears and screamed NONONONONONO in response to an explanation of actions before telling everyone they're wrong and you're right.



DeVore is the benevolent dictator of boards.ie. He is an implicit mod of the entire site, whether he officially wants to be or not.

If he says "cool it" you take it as an instruction and cool it.

Thats the point, there was nothing to cool. I dealt with it in a calm dignified way, Im sure there is some way in which you can view the deleted posts to see for yourself.

He even basically said "eh ye did nowt wrong but stfu and go away anyway"


How is it fair to make such comments? Do you think it is fair for someone to make a personal attack like that? Would you do it? Would scofflaw do it? Do you think it was right? I doubt it.
The place for comments like that is not on the thread.

GuanYin

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

He even basically said "eh ye did nowt wrong but stfu and go away anyway"

There is a difference between not breaking any rules and not doing anything wrong.

I would argue that for the most part, you don't break rules, I wouldn't say you don't do anything wrong.

In my view, you are among a handful of posters who reply doggedly to a thread until everyone else gets bored and leaves. That isn't breaking the rules but it is, in my view, wrong.

This is what DeVore was trying to highlight. He was, I believe, trying to be helpful in doing so. Unfortunately, your reaction to that has pretty much proved his point.

Wolfe Tone

GuanYin wrote: »

There is a difference between not breaking any rules and not doing anything wrong.

I would argue that for the most part, you don't break rules, I wouldn't say you don't do anything wrong.

In my view, you are among a handful of posters who reply doggedly to a thread until everyone else gets bored and leaves. That isn't breaking the rules but it is, in my view, wrong.

This is what DeVore was trying to highlight. He was, I believe, trying to be helpful in doing so. Unfortunately, your reaction to that has pretty much proved his point.

So its crime to comment a lot on threads I find interesting? Please shoot me for contributing, maybe we should all be limited to one post per thread?
Third time lucky....

How is it fair to make such comments? Do you think it is fair for someone to make a personal attack like that? Would you do it? Would scofflaw do it? Do you think it was right? I doubt it.
The place for comments like that is not on the thread.

In this case dev clearly was both wrong and broke the rules.

tbh This is rather pointless, maybe its best simply to get Dev on here so he can speak for himself.

Nevyn

Thread hogging, when it is disruptive to a forum or thread is imho being a dick and there for breaking the site rules.

danbohan

GuanYin wrote: »

And there in lies the crux of the problem

no , the crux of the problem is that you and other mods have an anti republican attitude/agenda which is barely hidden at best and blatant on occasion .

danbohan

danbohan wrote: »

no , the crux of the problem is that you and other mods have an anti republican attitude/agenda which is barely hidden at best and blatant on occasion .

Not all mods

danbohan

Papa Smut wrote: »

Not all mods

of course not

GuanYin

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So its crime to comment a lot on threads I find interesting? Please shoot me for contributing, maybe we should all be limited to one post per thread?
Third time lucky....

In that thread you asked a question (which was only vaguely related to the topic, so thats thread hijacking to start with).
people answered,
Your response, was "oh yeah, but what about this scenario"
People responded
Your response, was "oh yeah, but what about this scenario"
People responded
you gave an opinion
people responded,
your reply was to restate your opinion,
people responded again,
your response was to give the same stance a third time (though to your credit, you did phrase it slightly differently this time)

All of which is very tiresome, it doesn't clearly break a rule (bar thread hijacking) but it isn't what we want in the politics forum.

In this case dev clearly was both wrong and broke the rules.

tbh This is rather pointless, maybe its best simply to get Dev on here so he can speak for himself.

Actually, in this case, until someone higher steps in, I'm the first line judge of who is wrong and who broke the rules and I disagree.

Wolfe Tone

danbohan wrote: »

no , the crux of the problem is that you and other mods have an anti republican attitude/agenda which is barely hidden at best and blatant on occasion .

I think that may be a debate for another day, Im not saying that DeV did this because of my republican views, despite his clear and expressed disdain for republicans.

GuanYin

danbohan wrote: »

no , the crux of the problem is that you and other mods have an anti republican attitude/agenda which is barely hidden at best and blatant on occasion .

So you think I, an asian american, who lives in the US, have some sort of anti-republican agenda? Based on what?

Wolfe Tone

GuanYin wrote: »

In that thread you asked a question (which was only vaguely related to the topic, so thats thread hijacking to start with).
people answered,
Your response, was "oh yeah, but what about this scenario"
People responded
Your response, was "oh yeah, but what about this scenario"
People responded
you gave an opinion
people responded,
your reply was to restate your opinion,
people responded again,
your response was to give the same stance a third time (though to your credit, you did phrase it slightly differently this time)

All of which is very tiresome, it doesn't clearly break a rule (bar thread hijacking) but it isn't what we want in the politics forum.




Actually, in this case, until someone higher steps in, I'm the first line judge of who is wrong and who broke the rules and I disagree.

The point I was making was that I was attempting to find out the consensus on where the line should be drawn in relation to political avatars, which still remains unclear. The point I was making was that I believe it should be either all or none, as it would be hypocritical to allow some which "celebrate/promote/commemorate" violence and not others.
Not at all thread hijacking.

Have you read the deleted posts? Am I right they stay in a log or something?

Wolfe Tone

GuanYin wrote: »

So you think I, an asian american, who lives in the US, have some sort of anti-republican agenda? Based on what?

Its clear that some mods have an anti republican opinion at least, if not agenda.

GuanYin

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

The point I was making was that I was attempting to find out the consensus on where the line should be drawn in relation to political avatars, which still remains unclear. The point I was making was that I believe it should be either all or none, as it would be hypocritical to allow some which "celebrate/promote/commemorate" violence and not others.
Not at all thread hijacking.

Have you read the deleted posts? Am I right they stay in a log or something?

The deleted posts aren't really the issue (yes I have read them) your dogged, repetitious posting style is. It gets up posters noses and it spoils threads.

Thats the issue, it was pointed out to you, you're unhappy about it. We get that.

In an ideal world, DeVore could have PM'd you and spared you the spotlight,maybe you deserved that much, but to be honest, I don't think you would have taken any more heed of his warning and your reaction disinclines my sympathy.

So from a politics point of view, I'll echo DeVore's sentiments regarding your posting in Politics.

Take the constructive criticism and see how things come out.

Its clear that some mods have an anti republican opinion at least, if not agenda.

I have an opinion that killing people is wrong, for any reason, celebrating it is similarly wrong.

I apply that to my opinions of both Republicans and Unionists.

Wolfe Tone

The deleted posts are the issue. It was clearly implied that I had acted in a way other than I did. You read them, did they warrant a warning to"cool down"? Of course they didn't.

My "repetitive posting style" being pointed out to me is not the thing I have issue with at all, its the fact that it was done so on the thread, in breach of the rules and done in such a personal way which was wrong. Tell me, is the politics forum the place for such things to be talked about? Obviously it is not.

That spotlight was unfair. You can see that.


Yes, he should have PM'd me rather than personally attacking me on the forum.

I would have PMd DeV about this but he said to start a feedback thread.



I find it amusing that you accuse me of "spoiling" threads, I really do.

GuanYin

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I find it amusing that you accuse me of "spoiling" threads, I really do.

Again, the crux of the problem.

Perhaps if you took the criticism on board, you won't have these issues.

Overheal

Thaedydal wrote: »

Thread hogging, when it is disruptive to a forum or thread is imho being a dick and there for breaking the site rules.

I wouldn't say it's breaking the rules, but it is breaking the ethos.

phantom_lord

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So its crime to comment a lot on threads I find interesting? Please shoot me for contributing, maybe we should all be limited to one post per thread?
Third time lucky....

Strawman imo

Overheal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I had to look it up...

AckwelFoley

GuanYin wrote: »

So you think I, an asian american, who lives in the US, have some sort of anti-republican agenda? Based on what?

Based on the "if you dont believe in a United Ireland you are not Irish" mentality.

Apparently im a west brit because i recognise the 6 counties of the North as part of the United Kingdom.

I dont have any problem with Musso, i think his passion and "doggedness" is mistaken too often for being a problem, but many forget that this is a very emotive issue for some people. Ive learned, as i got older to look at what i feel is the bigger picture in the interests of a more sustainable future, regardless of the simple fact that my opinion has no affect on northern politics

When emotion is at such a high level subjectiveness tends to suffer,

Wolfe Tone

Im a west brit because Im a Utd fan apparently.

GuanYin

snyper wrote: »

Based on the "if you dont believe in a United Ireland you are not Irish" mentality.

err but I am not Irish??!!!