"Reputable breeders"

iheartthailand

Before I start, I want to say that Im no expert on this subject and am looking for information, I may be wrong about some of my assuptions so please feel free to correct me.

anyways, my question is about what people would call "reputable breeders". Many people come on this forum asking for advice on where to get such and such a breed or about breeders of certain dogs. Many people give advise suggesting they go to a dog show or the IKC as this would be the best place to find one.

As far as Im aware, many "show dogs" can have serious health problems, kings charles cav's with heads to small for their brains, GSD's with sloping backs, bulldogs with serious breathing problems. Are these, what I would describe as problems but might cause a dog to win a show, commonly seen in shows in Ireland? If so, is this really the best place to get a dog or get advice?

Do you have to be extremely careful if you look for a breeder at a show? Is this really the best way to find a breeder? Personally I would never buy as i see all sorts of lovely dogs in the rescue I volunteer for, but I have friends who are buying dogs and would like more info on this subject!

Cherry Blossom

Personally I'm not a fan of the IKC I don't consider IKC registration instant proof that the person is a reputable breeder. If I wanted a GSD I'd get one from 'good' working stock. There are some breeds like the pug for example that I don't think should exist at all. I'm not interested in showing at all and I'd be more than happy to take any dog from working stock that was of proven temprament and had all relevant tests for the breed done. The fact of the matter is though that anyone health testing dogs for breeding is going to do the whole shebang and go down the Registration route as well.

There is no point contacting the IKC for info. on breeders because they won't answer the phone :rolleyes:. I do recommend breed clubs, dog trials, shows sometimes I even recommend contacting a gun dog club depending on what the person is looking for keeping in mind that the average pet owner won't be able to handle a 'proper' working dog. Not sure if this answers your question but this is my position on the subject.

I have have every intention of getting a Doberman at some stage in the future and I already know exactly what I'm looking for and will have to do some searching in the UK to find it when the time comes.

iheartthailand

Thanks for the reply! But when you say you'd recommend shows and breed clubs, do these not encourage breeding of what are essentially deformed dogs? Personally I dont really like the idea of shows, they are essentially beauty contests with no regard for the health of the dogs (AFAIK). Not saying everyone who shows their dogs dont have their dogs wellbeing as their main priority, just that these shows in general promote pointless beauty standards that have caused deformed dogs. Is this really the best place to go for a dog?

Cherry Blossom

iheartthailand wrote: »

Thanks for the reply! But when you say you'd recommend shows and breed clubs, do these not encourage breeding of what are essentially deformed dogs? Personally I dont really like the idea of shows, they are essentially beauty contests with no regard for the health of the dogs (AFAIK). Not saying everyone who shows their dogs dont have their dogs wellbeing as their main priority, just that these shows in general promote pointless beauty standards that have caused deformed dogs. Is this really the best place to go for a dog?

Like I said it depends on what the person is looking for, whether of not I would recommend a breed club would depend on the breed, they are not all 'deformed' as you put it. I've never heard of anyone buying a dog at a dog show, you don't go there to buy. The 'reputable breeders' don't advertise their dogs as they don't have to, some have waiting lists as long as your arm. A lot of them are involved in breed clubs and attend shows so they seem as good a place as any to look for them. People are also advised to attend shows if they want owner opinions on a specific breed or are unsure what breed would suit them best. First hand owner opinions are very valuable in this case and there is also no better place to find people so willing to talk about their dog for hours. I prefer working dogs myself though so I'm probably not the best person to be promoting this line of thought and I'm sure others will comment on this thread. I have only been to the very occasional IKC show because I'm 100 miles from any of the usual places they are held. I go to local pet shows regularly because they are good places for socialising my dog.

There have been a few threads before that might interest you, I will try and find them!

Cherry Blossom

The pros and cons discussed in depth here, even though it's an AH thread!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056078393

And another here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056078674

Some heavy reading there for you

iheartthailand

thanks again for you reply, i know they dont sell dogs at shows but a lot of the people who show their dogs would breed from them. I know not all show dogs are " deformed" but there are quite a few breeds where the kennel club standard specifies what I would consider to be deformities and a lot of these breeds are very popular.

People often say that a dog or bitch should only be breed from if she is a perfect example of her breed...as far as i know a basset hound with extremely short legs is a good example of the breed, but this causes arthritis.....should people really be encouraged to breed from such a dog?

If i were to breed (never would though) i wouldnt care if my cav had a large head and a long muzzle, as long as he/she was healthy.

Once again I'll emphasize that I really dont know much about show dogs or breeding, but from the bit of research ive done these are the conclusion i've come too (feel free to correct me)

If you have links to any threads you think i would be interested in i'd be very grateful

iheartthailand

Just saw the links now, thanks i'll have a read and get back to you!

cjf

I think a 'reputable breeder' would be someone who is genuinely concerned with the health and welfare of their dogs. I know there are many bad breeders out there who are only concerned with money but I have learnerd not to paint all breeders with the same brush! I atteneded some dog shows to meet breeders when I was researching the doberman breed and met a great example of a 'reputable breeder' I was only there for info as I was interested in adopting a rescue but wanted to find out all the info on the breed. I met a fab dobie breeder who is very committed to his dogs and sucessfully shows and breeds them! He was very helpful and very honest in telling me all about the breed and as it happened I ended up homing a dog of his that had been returned as the owners couldnt keep it any more. If for any reason at any stage the owners of one of his dogs can no longer care for the dog he insists that the dog is returned to him for homing. He has a contract that everyone who gets a pup from him must sign stating same. He still keeps in touch to see how my dog is and has always encouraged me to contact him if I ever need advice. He is a great example of a good breeder and I only wish there was more like him out there!

lrushe

Going to the IKC to find a reputable breeder is really only a point to start off from when looking for a dog.
Before even getting this far you should arm yourself with every scrap of information on the breed in question you are looking for. Know their history, what they were breed for, their excerise requirements, feeding demands, training needs, genetic problems etc.
You must also understand what to look for in a reputable breeder ie. reasons for breeding, titles achieved by the parents, health tests carried out on the parents etc.
Then when you have all of this under your belt you will be in a better postition to weed out the ethical from the unethical IKC breeders out there.

Sigma Force

Agree the IKC can be a starting point but never ever a guarantee, common sense and researching the breed are just as vital.

bullylover

a good breeder will have the necessary tests done for both parents (hips, elbows, eyes, ears, heart etc). They will have full history of both parents and they will give a life time support for the new owner.
Theres not many of them in ireland, and the IKC is a joke. They are only interested in money making rather then bettering breeding.
I agree that breeds like pugs (cork tail) shouldnt be bred. Same with Rodashan Ridgebacks its for fashion they have the ridge yet detramental to their health. If you look at breeds from jst 50yrs ago they have little or no resemblence to todays so called "standard". Sorry but i have a bee in my bonnet about this!
People in ireland should not be allowed register pups with the necessary health checks. But the IKC will never do that, so people who are buying dogs will jst have to continue paying HUGE vet bills for poorly bred dogs, but at least they will be IKC reg.
Oh and i apoligise for my spelling!:)
::rant over::

lrushe

bullylover wrote: »

People in ireland should not be allowed register pups with the necessary health checks. But the IKC will never do that, so people who are buying dogs will jst have to continue paying HUGE vet bills for poorly bred dogs, but at least they will be IKC reg.
QUOTE]

It's not the IKC with the power to enforce health testing, it is the general public who are buying these pups from questionable parentage. If people demanded the parents of their pups be health tested and refused to by from breeders who didn't do the testing, guess what, every breeder would health test or stop breeding. It's as simple as that, unfortunately too many people allow their hearts to rule their heads when buying a dog and inadvertently add to the problems of pedigree dogs.

iheartthailand

Even if a breeder is not in it for the money, treats the dogs extremely well etc if they are still breeding say rhodesian ridgeback's, they are going to purposely breed only dogs with ridges in order to produce one's with ridges, even though dogs without the ridges are healthier.

People often say you should only breed a dog that is a perfect example of its breed, but the perfect example can encourage dogs with health problems, a tiny head, a sloping back, a ridge etc

Would people who say you should only breed from a perfect example (by kennel club standards) think that someone who breeds ridgebacks without the ridge, who do all the health tests, and tick every other box are still bad breeders?

bullylover

I agree, but "pets" are new to ireland. Ireland always had animals, but they earned there keep. General knowledge of pet care is not very high in this country as in others.
I have a friend who's a groomer who has worked in many different countries and she beleives we are he worst pet owners she has seen. We have best intentions but no clue!
The Swedish Kennel Club brought in the inforcment that all breeding dogs had to be tested and have there temperment test before breeding and all results are open to the public.
If people dont know about the illness that are hereditory in dogs of any breed it is up to the Kennel Club to make it known.
I know of a breeder of Pyrenean Mountain Dogs who continues to breed from the same male and female year after year (3rd litter in a row) that are passing on hip dysplacia, heart and kidney problems. I reported this to the kennel club as he is registering his pups and they said "yeah but he is paying for the papers". Irish Kennel Club needs to pull up its socks. Help bring Irish people the knowledge and information they need to breed and keep healthy dogs.

Cherry Blossom

lrushe wrote: »

bullylover wrote: »

People in ireland should not be allowed register pups with the necessary health checks. But the IKC will never do that, so people who are buying dogs will jst have to continue paying HUGE vet bills for poorly bred dogs, but at least they will be IKC reg.

It's not the IKC with the power to enforce health testing, it is the general public who are buying these pups from questionable parentage. If people demanded the parents of their pups be health tested and refused to by from breeders who didn't do the testing, guess what, every breeder would health test or stop breeding. It's as simple as that, unfortunately too many people allow their hearts to rule their heads when buying a dog and inadvertently add to the problems of pedigree dogs.

But do you not think they are ideally placed to make a huge difference here? They could easily introduce some rules on health testing and refuse to register pups from untested parents. It wouldn't change overnight but done a little at a time it would make a huge difference. What exactly is their role? Surely their focus should be on preserving these breeds for future generations and improving the health of the breed (I should be saying maintaining the health of the breed here but . . .). It appears to me that they are about generating money from record keeping - making them no better than (dare I say it) puppy farmers. Sorry if my opinion offends you in anyway at all but they are very much lumped in with with every other 'agency' in this country that should be able to make a difference but in reality appears to do sod all. They can't even be bothered to answer the phone when you ring them and if you do manage to contact them they 'can't help you' unless it's something they can charge you for.

If I was to source a KC registered dog in the UK tomorrow I would have absolutely no motivation to re-register it with the IKC, in all honesty I don't think I would bother.

bullylover

iheartthailand wrote: »

Even if a breeder is not in it for the money, treats the dogs extremely well etc if they are still breeding say rhodesian ridgeback's, they are going to purposely breed only dogs with ridges in order to produce one's with ridges, even though dogs without the ridges are healthier.

People often say you should only breed a dog that is a perfect example of its breed, but the perfect example can encourage dogs with health problems, a tiny head, a sloping back, a ridge etc

Would people who say you should only breed from a perfect example (by kennel club standards) think that someone who breeds ridgebacks without the ridge, who do all the health tests, and tick every other box are still bad breeders?

I think the standards have to change, the poor basset hounds who are hunting dogs, cant hunt because of the extra folds been bred into them because of fashion, the english bull dog, shortened and squeshed, i own a english bull terrier but to see what we have done to thier skulls is shocking and all because of fashion.
We have to remember what the dogs were bred to do and breed accordingly.
Most Rhod breeders will PTS pups bron without the ridge shortly after their born because they cant be show dogs.
Jst think we need to cop on a bit thats all. we will allows have ill dogs but we can do our best to stop bad breeding and passing on hereditry problems.

Discodog

Always bear in mind that "Papers" may be fakes & never assume that the person selling the pups is the breeder - it may be an outlet for a puppy farm.

iheartthailand

I do understand about puppy farms and the methods they use to sell their dogs, that not really what im getting at. Im not looking to buy a dog myself so am not looking for advice on that. its more a question to people who say only a dog that is a perfect example of its breed should be bred.

Using the rhodesian ridgeback as an example again, if someone who does all the health checks, and everything else responsibley, but is not breeding dogs with ridges, is not considered a responsible breeder. at the same time breeders who do the same except produce dogs with ridges, well they could also be seen as being irresponsible.....in this case, is their such thing as a responsible rhodesian ridgeback breeder?

Im not trying to encourage breeding a more dogs or anything, personally i'd like to see a stop to 99% of breeding in this country while we have so many unwanted dogs.

bullylover

iheartthailand wrote: »

I do understand about puppy farms and the methods they use to sell their dogs, that not really what im getting at. Im not looking to buy a dog myself so am not looking for advice on that. its more a question to people who say only a dog that is a perfect example of its breed should be bred.

Using the rhodesian ridgeback as an example again, if someone who does all the health checks, and everything else responsibley, but is not breeding dogs with ridges, is not considered a responsible breeder. at the same time breeders who do the same except produce dogs with ridges, well they could also be seen as being irresponsible.....in this case, is their such thing as a responsible rhodesian ridgeback breeder?

Im not trying to encourage breeding a more dogs or anything, personally i'd like to see a stop to 99% of breeding in this country while we have so many unwanted dogs.

Thats a tricky question, Rhod's have less health problems without the ridge but the kennel club state the must have it so what are breeders to do? If the kennel club allowed the registering of none ridged pups i think the breed wud be benefited.
I bought my English Bull Terrier from a English breeder as I couldnt find any breeders with relevant tests done at the time here. And to tell you the truth if I were to go looking for a new pup I would be looking abroad again.
After reading up on the swedish kennel club I would preferably get a pup from sweden. That way I can see the temperment scores and health scores of each parent and see the inherited charateristics.

johnbhere

On a totally different note. I am looking for boarding kennels for my two dogs for June. Very spoilt. One is a cocker spaniel,other is a cavacon (half bichon, half cavalier). 3 years and 1 years old. this will be their 1st time away from home. any advice would be appreciated. I live in Dublin, so Kildare, Meath of Wicklow areas would suit if I found the right person.

iheartthailand

Yeah it's all a bit odd...like people on this forum have said a dog should be placed highly in a number of shows before being bred. Is this really important? Like if a dog has perfect health and temperment is that not enough? The perfect example of a breed is just what a group of people have decided a breed should look like. And look where thats got the likes of Pugs.

Out of curiosty, would u buy from a breeder who did everything right but who's dogs where not showed, or "perfect examples" of their breeds?

iheartthailand

johnbhere wrote: »

On a totally different note. I am looking for boarding kennels for my two dogs for June. Very spoilt. One is a cocker spaniel,other is a cavacon (half bichon, half cavalier). 3 years and 1 years old. this will be their 1st time away from home. any advice would be appreciated. I live in Dublin, so Kildare, Meath of Wicklow areas would suit if I found the right person.

The dspca have opened up new boarding kennels, so not only will your dog get looked after by people whose main concern is animal welfare but the money you pay goes to helping other dogs that arent as lucky as yours. win win situation

sligopark

What if I were to get into breeding a dog because I got into the breed so to speak. I investigated lines, faults etc and decided to get 'into it'
and breed good quality pups not for the money but to provide good quality pups to give to like minded folk?

I could register the progeny with the UK KC (am I right the Irish KC is a joke?)

This is only a theoretical post since I have only a while back got a terrier bitch which I admit I love (full breed UK KC reg good lines) and I am enjoying her so much I might breed her in the future to give my folks a few pups (which they have asked for).

My problem is that before I got this pup (I did for free) my advice to folk was go to rescue centres and so I am now in conflict....

bullylover

My own dog, her mother was a pet and her father a show dog. I went with the breeder not because her stud was a champion but because the stud and b*tch both had all relivant tests and both had fantastic temperments. So yes I would buy a pup from known showing lines. But if I was a buyer looking for a future champ, I would obv be looking at it's parentage's confirmation and how closely it resembles the breed standard.
I do intend to show my b*tch, but for fun not for the competetion, and if I ever decide to breed I will be fully testing pups and they will come with a life time of support. I think a good breeder knows there is no money in breeding pups, you usually lose money, but you should be happy in the knowledge that you have added happy healthy bloodlines to your chosen breed.

iheartthailand

sligopark wrote: »

My problem is that before I got this pup (I did for free) my advice to folk was go to rescue centres and so I am now in conflict....

I would continue to keep enjoying your dog and put effort in to finding your parents puppies from a rescue or the pound instead, but seeing as i care so little about dogs being "champions" im probably biased!

Cherry Blossom

sligopark wrote: »

What if I were to get into breeding a dog because I got into the breed so to speak. I investigated lines, faults etc and decided to get 'into it'
and breed good quality pups not for the money but to provide good quality pups to give to like minded folk?

I could register the progeny with the UK KC (am I right the Irish KC is a joke?)

This is only a theoretical post since I have only a while back got a terrier bitch which I admit I love (full breed UK KC reg good lines) and I am enjoying her so much I might breed her in the future to give my folks a few pups (which they have asked for).

My problem is that before I got this pup (I did for free) my advice to folk was go to rescue centres and so I am now in conflict....

In regards to the bold part - if everyone had to pay for fully health tested dogs from breeders with the breeds best interests at heart, the average joe on the street would think longer and harder about getting a dog. It amazes me how much time and thought some people will put into choosing a car but will go out and get a dog on a whim. If they had to pay the same costs we would have a lot less need for rescues as a lot more thought would be put into it so why not support those that are putting their efforts into changing things at the source of the problem?

However your post in it's entirety absolutey reeks (honestly no offence intended here) of the same syndrome that comes from many first time owners who have just got a bitch puppy, are completely besotted and believe they have the absolute best example of the breed. Trust me every single owner of any pedigree dog be it puppy farmed, bred in a back yard, good working stock, or from top show lines think their dog is the best of breed, best of species, best in the world. You couldn't possibly have any idea if this dog is suitable to breed from at this stage. You haven't said the parents have been health tested and as Discodog has said papers can easily be forged, have you contacted the KC and origional breeder to verify that they are authentic? If so have you done any research on the origional breeder?

I think the reason you are more hesitant than some would be is because this new mentality conflicts with your existing ethics.

Also I really am sorry to have to do this to you and I appologise if some new information on this dogs background have come to light or if this is a different dog; but this is a quote from a post you made on a thread in November:

sligopark wrote: »

cheers - it seems she is a mongrel breed of terrier with parson, jack and even an english breed plummer in her background - looks like a terrier brown and white with a wider head than I have seen on most but still appears tiny but leggy

iheartthailand

sligopark wrote: »

just came on an ad on donedeal and thought of folk wanting a pup and who would go the rescue route

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/dogs/1812304


http://www.collonanimalsanctuary.com/Newlook_Sanctuary/For_Adoption.html

4 labrador x collie pups 6 weeks
6 black labrador types 8 weeks old
2 german shepard x collie 13 weeks
3 terrier pups 12weeks old

maybe you could suggest these pups to your parents instead?

lrushe

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

But do you not think they are ideally placed to make a huge difference here? They could easily introduce some rules on health testing and refuse to register pups from untested parents. QUOTE]

I agree and in an ideal world they would but the IKC is a business same as any other and regrettably money talks, if less breeders register pups because they don't want to pay for health testing the IKC is down money, is this right, no of course not.
It's people themselves that can make the biggest difference and it is utimately people in the general public who can determine the fate of pedigree dogs.

lrushe

bullylover wrote: »

I think the standards have to change, the poor basset hounds who are hunting dogs, cant hunt because of the extra folds been bred into them because of fashion

It's not so much the standard that has to change but more some people's interpretation of it. The Bassett Hound Standard for example calls for a dog fit for purpose and with the endurance to keep up in the field, it repeatly points out that excesses like too many wrinkles, excessive length of back etc. is undesirable but your interpretation of excessive wrinkles and mine might differ.
Whereas health testing is a better indicator, if the wrinkels are excessive to the point they are causing health problems those dogs shouldn't be bred from.

bullylover wrote: »

Most Rhod breeders will PTS pups bron without the ridge shortly after their born because they cant be show dogs.

Most??? Do you have proof of that? If so I would pass it onto the relevant authorities.

bullylover wrote: »

we can do our best to stop bad breeding and passing on hereditry problems.

I agree!

lrushe

iheartthailand wrote: »

Using the rhodesian ridgeback as an example again, if someone who does all the health checks, and everything else responsibley, but is not breeding dogs with ridges, is not considered a responsible breeder. at the same time breeders who do the same except produce dogs with ridges, well they could also be seen as being irresponsible.....in this case, is their such thing as a responsible rhodesian ridgeback breeder?

If someone is breeding Rhodesian Ridgebacks without the ridge, technically they are not Rhodesian Ridegebacks, these 'slickbacks' should be sold as pets with a spay / neuter contracts.
A responsible Ridgeback breeder will only breed lines free from Sinus Dermoid to prevent the passing it on to future generations as well as doing other health testing, hips, elbows, etc. and will sell ridgeless puppies as I've stated above.

lrushe

iheartthailand wrote: »

Yeah it's all a bit odd...like people on this forum have said a dog should be placed highly in a number of shows before being bred. Is this really important? Like if a dog has perfect health and temperment is that not enough? The perfect example of a breed is just what a group of people have decided a breed should look like. And look where thats got the likes of Pugs.

Out of curiosty, would u buy from a breeder who did everything right but who's dogs where not showed, or "perfect examples" of their breeds?

It's not a case of one or the other, health and showing should go hand in hand.
Showing is very important, you need a yard stick with which to measure a dog, a template if you will or else breeds that we know and love would go vastly astray and no longer resemble the breeds they are supposed to be.
Showing is only one measure of breedablity, there are also working titles in obedience, field trials and for some breeds Schutzund because a dog not only has to look like it's breed it must also be able to preform like it's breed.
Governing all of the above should be health. I think entwining all 3 together is the best way forward for pedigree dogs.