For whom the bell tolls - Munster Rugby?? **Mod Warning. read Post #10".**

liammur

yimrsg wrote: »

Any team in France can beat any other team depending on factors like: are they bringing their second string/resting their firsts, have they got a HC match the next/last week, is there in a French Camp depriving them key players, are they targeting the match as a win or just going there with the intention of denying the team a winning bonus point or coming away with a losing bonus point, etc.


McGahan hasn't handled infusing Munster with younger players, much like his predecessor(s) but the well isn't empty. Nagle was motm against Australia B, there is a few others who could be included. Dave O'Callaghan (I think) had great hands when I saw him in the U20's 6 nations matches.


Had/if (there is still time) McGahan taken more youngster in there might have been a rejuvination in the squad with the older member's being inspired by competition and the younger players eager to show the more established guys their capabilities.

Now is not the time to throw away all the old heads but to rally together and pass on the collective knowlegde and ethos of what Munster is. Guys like POC, DOC, ROG, Quinlan etc have huge experience which must be passed on either from coaching or playing together, perhaps there is a greater need than ever for this season to become not known as "the one that Munster didn't make the HC quarter finals" but instead became "the one where the new Munster was born on the pitch".

I agree with all these points. I would like to see mcgahan get the axe.

trackguy

Bogsnorkler wrote: »

ok,

15- Felix Jones (i know, he's a Leinster boy)
Wing- Simon Zebo, Earls
Centres- Ivan Dineen, Scott Deasy, Danny Barnes
10- J.J. Hanrahan
Scrum half- Duncan Willams, Conor Murray

8- Paddy Bulter
6 and 7- Peter O'Mahony, Tommy O'Donnell
2nd Row- Ian Nagle, Dave O'Callaghan, Dave Foley
2- Mike Sherry, (can't think of his first name) Henry
Prop- Dave Ryan, Darragh Hurley


From what i've seen of these, they look decent but it takes a lot to make it.

Thanks for that.

As you say, its hard to tell who will make it but there is a good number of prospects. All this nonsense being talked about Munster in response to 1 game...

Maybe the IRFU are part of Munster's problem? I'd say they are forcing McGahan's hand with regard to selection certain players. Play Hayes, play Buckley, play MOD, play Wallace...
The same will happen if/ when Marcus Horan returns.

Leinster (for instance) don't have the problem of loads of aging Irish players that the IRFU would pressurise Shcmidt to accommodate. They will be pressurised into getting games for Fitz, Kearney etc

RuggieBear

liammur don't post again on this thread. you are beginning to look like you are trolling to me.

liammur

RuggieBear wrote: »

liammur don't post again on this thread. you are beginning to look like you are trolling to me.

ok boss.

flutered

my first and only post on this thread, in my younger days it was said if you do not have a scrum you loose, it is still true today, 40 odd years later.

PhatPiggins

flutered wrote: »

my first and only post on this thread, in my younger days it was said if you do not have a scrum you loose, it is still true today, 40 odd years later.

Australia

trackguy

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Australia

That does not dis-prove what he is saying.

Also, Munster do not have Rocky Elsom,Quade Cooper, Matt Giteau, Drew Mitchell and James O'Connor to compensate for a terrible scrum.

Munster and Ireland have been ignoring the scrum issue for too long.

LeeroyJones

Bogsnorkler wrote: »

ok,

15- Felix Jones (i know, he's a Leinster boy)
Wing- Simon Zebo, Earls
Centres- Ivan Dineen, Scott Deasy, Danny Barnes
10- J.J. Hanrahan
Scrum half- Duncan Willams, Conor Murray

8- Paddy Bulter
6 and 7- Peter O'Mahony, Tommy O'Donnell
2nd Row- Ian Nagle, Dave O'Callaghan, Dave Foley
2- Mike Sherry, (can't think of his first name) Henry
Prop- Dave Ryan, Darragh Hurley


From what i've seen of these, they look decent but it takes a lot to make it.

Who would you reckon is ready to get a run of Magners League starts at least, and potentially a run in the Amlin?
From what I've seen from Deasy I reckon he should get a consistent run

profitius

TheHighRoad wrote: »

Just on those, Darragh Hurley is 25 and is well out the academy and Felix Jones came from Leinster first team squad and went straight into Munster first team squad he wasnt produced by Munster academy. I do agree though that people are being a bit harsh on Munster academy as Sherry and Nagle look to be future internationals. I think Butler and Zebo are very overrated and Peter O'Mahony is miles ahead of Butler.

Butler is a talented player. For the Irish U20's last year he was probably the standout backrow and that included Dom Ryan and Ruddock and was wanted by a number of clubs and thats why Munster has to promote him quickly. He just needs to put on 2 stone to compete at the highest level.

Bogsnorkler wrote: »

Will Munster really produce as many top players in a generation again? I donno, I mean historically speaking its Ulster and Leinster players who've been the most selected for ireland and have more school's playing in a very high quality competition at an early age.

I mean if we're honest not a lot of people play rugby in Munster outside Cork city and Limerick. And if there are clubs its inevitably Junior clubs where half the team fecks off when the football/hurling starts.

I'm worried anyway.

Theres lots of Tipp players now and in non traditional rugby places like Waterford theres loads of kids playing the game. With rugby being more high profile these days it has to be a good thing for the future.

trackguy wrote: »

Can someone do me the service of listing out those who they regard as prospects for Munster? And their positions? Thanks in advance

From what I've seen or heard..
Butler, backrow
Dave O'Callaghan, lock/backrow
Brian Hayes, lock
Nagle, lock
Murray scrumhalf
Darragh Hurley prop
Sherry hooker
Deasy, midfield, outhalf, fullback
Duncan Williams, scrumhalf
Danny Barnes wing/midfield
Ivan Dineen midfield
POM backrow
TOD backrow
Jones fullback
Dave Ryan prop

I'm sure theres more. They won't all make it but some could turn out to be good.

twinytwo

profitius wrote: »

Butler is a talented player. For the Irish U20's last year he was probably the standout backrow and that included Dom Ryan and Ruddock and was wanted by a number of clubs and thats why Munster has to promote him quickly. He just needs to put on 2 stone to compete at the highest level.



Theres lots of Tipp players now and in non traditional rugby places like Waterford theres loads of kids playing the game. With rugby being more high profile these days it has to be a good thing for the future.



From what I've seen or heard..
Butler, backrow
Dave O'Callaghan, lock/backrow
Brian Hayes, lock
Nagle, lock
Murray scrumhalf
Darragh Hurley prop
Sherry hooker
Deasy, midfield, outhalf, fullback
Duncan Williams, scrumhalf
Danny Barnes wing/midfield
Ivan Dineen midfield
POM backrow
TOD backrow
Jones fullback
Dave Ryan prop

I'm sure theres more. They won't all make it but some could turn out to be good.

I only realised today that this is the same Ivan that was in my year in college:pac:

TheHighRoad

profitius wrote: »

Butler is a talented player. For the Irish U20's last year he was probably the standout backrow and that included Dom Ryan and Ruddock and was wanted by a number of clubs and thats why Munster has to promote him quickly. He just needs to put on 2 stone to compete at the highest level.

I think thats why hes overrated to be honest. He had a great 6 Nations last year but then had a very average World Cup later that year where he was outshone by the likes of Ruddock and Ryan. Also do you have a link about clubs being after him? Not saying I dont believe you I would just be interested to find out what clubs were after him. I thought he had a development contract anyway didnt know he got a full contract fair play to the lad. I still think O'Mahony is better than him though. O'Mahony was captain of the Irish U20s and he was their star player when he was on them.

profitius

TheHighRoad wrote: »

I think thats why hes overrated to be honest. He had a great 6 Nations last year but then had a very average World Cup later that year where he was outshone by the likes of Ruddock and Ryan. Also do you have a link about clubs being after him? Not saying I dont believe you I would just be interested to find out what clubs were after him. I thought he had a development contract anyway didnt know he got a full contract fair play to the lad. I still think O'Mahony is better than him though. O'Mahony was captain of the Irish U20s and he was their star player when he was on them.

He was quieter in the world cup maybe because Ireland kicked away possession of the ball all the time. I remember people being disappointed with the tactics. He just didn't get any ball in his hands.

I don't know who but Munster wanted to give him an academy contract but were forced to give him a development contract because he didn't want an academy contract. Its true alright.

Dave O'Callaghan was another who joined a few months into last season because I heard Leinster were after him. It wouldn't surprise me if its true.

POm will be a top player alright. Hes a leader already and has the talent. But very fiery though. He, like Butler needs to put on a few pound but they will.

PhatPiggins

Butler, backrow
Dave O'Callaghan, lock/backrow
Brian Hayes, lock
Nagle, lock
Murray scrumhalf
Darragh Hurley prop
Sherry hooker
Deasy, midfield, outhalf, fullback
Duncan Williams, scrumhalf
Danny Barnes wing/midfield
Ivan Dineen midfield
POM backrow
TOD backrow
Jones fullback
Dave Ryan prop

From what I've seen those in bold will definitely be HC standard and probably internationals, haven't seen as much of the B&I as I'd like though.

Quins,Sale and Northampton made inquiries about Paddy Butler.

Monty Burnz

trackguy wrote: »

Thanks for that.

As you say, its hard to tell who will make it but there is a good number of prospects. All this nonsense being talked about Munster in response to 1 game...

It's not one game. They were poor most of last season. They've been poor this season. I didn't expect them to beat Toulon, but I was amazed how far off the pace they were. I've been hearing this 'don't overreact, it's only one game' mantra for about 30 games in a row, with the exception of the demolition of Perpignan. That mantra was wrong - there were big problems and they have not been addressed.

So instead of gradual rebuilding over a number of years, we are looking at major surgery in the hope that the team can compete at the top table again in 3 or 4 years. I'm not content with Munster being also-rans, happy to get to a QF and head off home. I want them to be back at the top table where they have been for so long (too long, perhaps). The longer this surgery is deferred, the more radical it will have to be when the management finally get the brains/balls to do it.

Monty Burnz

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Australia

Australia who are without a world cup this millenium.

pajunior

trackguy wrote: »

That does not dis-prove what he is saying.

Also, Munster do not have Rocky Elsom,Quade Cooper, Matt Giteau, Drew Mitchell and James O'Connor to compensate for a terrible scrum.

Munster and Ireland have been ignoring the scrum issue for too long.

I can't believe you didn't mention pocock. I know the media have blown him up a little but he is still a top top player.

Sorry about going off topic.

LostinBlanch

yimrsg wrote: »

Munster have been on a slow decline with far too many players picked on reputation/central contracts dictating who get's gametime. Injuries to players have taken the toll but there seems to me a far greater resistance to blood or give game time to new players in Munster than in the other provinces.

McGahan hasn't handled infusing Munster with younger players, much like his predecessor(s) but the well isn't empty. Nagle was motm against Australia B, there is a few others who could be included. Dave O'Callaghan (I think) had great hands when I saw him in the U20's 6 nations matches.

Then why was McGahan given an extension to his contract?

desertcircus

It's time to apply a simple rule to anyone when deciding whether to give them another contract. If you'll be too old to be a possible first choice in your position for the next World Cup, then you're getting a rolling one-year contract. I said this a few months ago about O'Gara's central contract, and the result in Toulon has reinforced it. The Munster team are like Chelsea; if your players are good enough, you can hold off age for a surprisingly long time - but the end, when it comes, is sudden and unpleasant. All it takes is an injury here, a collapse in form there, and what was a powerful team can fall far very quickly. If you're getting on a bit, the IRFU can't afford to take a risk on paying four years of salary for two years of performance and two years of blocking a promising young player.

Once the World Cup is over, the IRFU should identify the people it thinks will still be capable of competing for a place in the first fifteen in 2015. Anyone who'll probably be too old gets a rolling contract if they want it, or moves to Toulon for a couple of years before retiring. Enforcing it would benefit Munster hugely; how many of the current side will still be there in 2015?

It's time for us to come to terms with the fact that you don't keep a player until he definitely can't perform anymore. Hayes may have performed in certain matches over the past, say, two years, but at the cost of developing his successor.

Podge_irl

profitius wrote: »

Butler, backrow - 1 start, 1 sub
Dave O'Callaghan, lock/backrow -
Brian Hayes, lock -
Nagle, lock - 5 starts, 1 sub
Murray scrumhalf -
Darragh Hurley prop - 13 starts, 20 subs. Already 25
Sherry hooker -
Deasy, midfield, outhalf, fullback - 9 starts, 9 subs
Duncan Williams, scrumhalf - 2 starts, 8 subs. Already 24, will be 25 in a few months
Danny Barnes wing/midfield - 1 start, 3 subs
Ivan Dineen midfield - 1 start, 2 subs
POM backrow - 2 starts, 8 subs
TOD backrow - 3 starts, 16 subs
Jones fullback - 8 starts, 1 sub (injury problems)
Dave Ryan prop - 2 starts, 8 subs. Already 24, almost 25.

I'm sure theres more. They won't all make it but some could turn out to be good.

Munster obviously have some good up and coming players, but they're just not getting the appropriate gametime. TmG and Kidney before him seem to relegate the younger players the second a seasoned international is available, regardless of form. It's seen the likes of Reddan and Ross move away before they were recognised as decent players, and if things don't change a lot of the players mentioned above will be lost too.

The Munster academy is lagging behind the Leinster one, but it's at senior level where there are serious problems. When you compare and contrast the young up and comers in both provinces, the Leinster ones are far better known because they're getting more game time. If you just look at the backrow, Ruddock (who's been capped!) isn't getting gametime because he's behind Ryan and SOB, both of whom are of similar ages to the players mentioned above and are both leagues ahead of the players above in terms of experience and exposure to the top levels of the game. Paul Ryan has more gametime then Butler, and I've never even heard of him!

Podge_irl

desertcircus wrote: »

It's time to apply a simple rule to anyone when deciding whether to give them another contract. If you'll be too old to be a possible first choice in your position for the next World Cup, then you're getting a rolling one-year contract. I said this a few months ago about O'Gara's central contract, and the result in Toulon has reinforced it. The Munster team are like Chelsea; if your players are good enough, you can hold off age for a surprisingly long time - but the end, when it comes, is sudden and unpleasant. All it takes is an injury here, a collapse in form there, and what was a powerful team can fall far very quickly. If you're getting on a bit, the IRFU can't afford to take a risk on paying four years of salary for two years of performance and two years of blocking a promising young player.

Once the World Cup is over, the IRFU should identify the people it thinks will still be capable of competing for a place in the first fifteen in 2015. Anyone who'll probably be too old gets a rolling contract if they want it, or moves to Toulon for a couple of years before retiring. Enforcing it would benefit Munster hugely; how many of the current side will still be there in 2015?

It's time for us to come to terms with the fact that you don't keep a player until he definitely can't perform anymore. Hayes may have performed in certain matches over the past, say, two years, but at the cost of developing his successor.

I can't say this strongly enough - **** the World Cup. The obsession with the RWC is part of the problem.

desertcircus

I really don't think it is. If anything, it's the opposite way round; the focus on the next set of results means that experimentation and rotation come second to the need to win the next match. A Munster team that decided two years ago to focus on producing players for 2011's World Cup would quite possibly be in a better position than they are now, and a coach operating on a four-year cycle is far more likely to give gametime to a young player ahead of a 33-year-old veteran compared to a coach focused entirely on getting the home bonus point to improve their draw chances for the quarterfinals.

Podge_irl

desertcircus wrote: »

I really don't think it is. If anything, it's the opposite way round; the focus on the next set of results means that experimentation and rotation come second to the need to win the next match. A Munster team that decided two years ago to focus on producing players for 2011's World Cup would quite possibly be in a better position than they are now, and a coach operating on a four-year cycle is far more likely to give gametime to a young player ahead of a 33-year-old veteran compared to a coach focused entirely on getting the home bonus point to improve their draw chances for the quarterfinals.

Bar some kind of ridiculous set of circumstances and luck, Ireland are never going to win the RWC. They can win the HEC and 6N with some regularity and that is what they should be focusing on. The idea of sacrificing tournaments that we both have history in (HEC and 6N) and should be far more succesful in (5/6N) is silly.

RMD

Podge_irl wrote: »

Bar some kind of ridiculous set of circumstances and luck, Ireland are never going to win the RWC. They can win the HEC and 6N with some regularity and that is what they should be focusing on. The idea of sacrificing tournaments that we both have history in (HEC and 6N) and should be far more succesful in (5/6N) is silly.

How are we sacrificing either competition? I don't see any Irish teams sacrificing the HEC right now, Leinster are giving it their all and Munster were just poor away. The 6N haven't come around yet and with the form some of the players are in right now, the only reason we wont do well is Kidney and his idiotic choices to be quite honest. I wouldn't be surprised if this season was a repeat of 08/09, Irish teams winning the Magners, 6N and possibly both the HEC and ACC, Munster are definitely capable of winning the ACC and to be fair the only team who can beat Leinster at this point in time IMO is Toulouse.

desertcircus

Even if we didn't even enter the world cup, a periodic reset would probably be beneficial. There's a temptation in the short term to focus on the next game, the next month, the rest of the season, when at least one eye should always be on the next few years. A focus on the world cup would at least force coaches and the IRFU to think reasonably long-term.

And I'm not convinced that Ireland are unable to win the world cup. We won't this time, thanks in no small part to some players going who simply aren't good enough, but an Ireland team arriving at a cup in form and with no past-it passengers would be good enough to beat almost anyone. New Zealand are beyond us (albeit with their own particular World Cup hoodoo), but none of the rest should be. We might not be good enough, but if we don't focus on it we'll make sure we're not.

shmaido

Podge_irl wrote: »

Bar some kind of ridiculous set of circumstances and luck, Ireland are never going to win the RWC. They can win the HEC and 6N with some regularity and that is what they should be focusing on. The idea of sacrificing tournaments that we both have history in (HEC and 6N) and should be far more succesful in (5/6N) is silly.

wow, thats astonishingly negative. I hope thats just temporary fallout from the toulon match but seriously, resigning ourselves to just HEC and 6n success only because you feel we might have a better chance at them seems just so completely absurd to me and depresses me to think that this could be a common attitude!!!

Infact its everything wrong with rugby in Ireland at the moment, we need to think bigger!! RWC should always be the focus of irish rugby - a long term plan will always focus on developing larger squads, encourage rotation which in turn speeds up the conveyer belt of new players. I don't really beleive that munster are lacking in home grown talent, I think they're just not getting the chances.

I definitely beleive there is a correlation between this munster team and the ireland team in the 2007 RWC - a tried and trusted team that had completely stagnated because of the "just win the next match" attitude of EOS/IRFU. It definitely took longer to happen in munster because of the belligerence and sheer bloody mindedness of munster but its happened, things have gone stale because there was no real long term plan. I do believe its as simple as that really.

Its a brutal reality but I don't believe this is the end of munster by any means. In saying that though I really really REALLY hope this acts as a kick up the arse for munster management (and maybe further up the ladder too!) and they don't try to gloss over the problems they have because as it stands, munster have too many of them to be the top class outfit we know they are.

yimrsg

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Then why was McGahan given an extension to his contract?

Didn't know he signed a new contract recently.

Probably because he is the man in charge and there is a natural hesitancy in rugby to make a sea change, either at a player or coaching level. Some players were only recently given long contracts when there is doubt over their ability to maintain their expected (or as close as possible) level of performance of yester year.

With the world cup so close, it baffles me why teams/clubs/provinces/countries offer contracts in rugby (as in football) to players/coaches before they can gauge what their level of performance is and whether expectations/goals were reached. There is a valid point that you tie your player/coach down and ward off interest if their stock rises but often there is egg on face. It makes no sense to me why a lot of older to maturing players/ coaches were given one beforehand.

There is a problem with central contracts favouring players who may not deserve their place in the team if form is a decider, the IRFU pays for these players and expects (preferential to me, I'm sure others can clarify) game time over other players whose form should merit their inclusion. How can newer players develop if there is such inherent bias in the system?

It is a double edged sword as often players are rested unnessessarily (think Ruddock who toured down under and only played briefly at the start of the season yet missed out on game time with Leinster) when they could be needed on the pitch or it works advantageously, when a rest is just what is needed to rejuvenate and might not happen if they were abroad or not covered by it.

I think at the very least augmentation, maybe replacement of some elements within Munster's coaching is needed, Backs and Attack coaching especially. I wouldn't do it mid season as there are fewer coaches on the hunt for jobs and it might be a better decision to wait till the WC is over and see if Munster can headhunt a top fowards/back/attack/defence coach. It might not make as massive difference immediately as signing a new player but coaches don't get injuries and a coaches work can be seen long after a player has left. Jim Williams could maybe bring an Aussie backs coach and stop off in South Africa to pick up a Scrum coach or a tighthead prop.

McGahan has to me struggled within the constraints of the IRFU's player management programme as injuries to key players and their eventual rehabilitation into the match day squad, Schmidt also started with a rocky patch but has eventually worked out a winning scheme within the confines (he hasn't had near the level of injuries to key players as Munster tbh).

Varley has benefited from the injuries to Flannery and gone "elite", whilst Nagel is behind POC, DOC and MOD (all 3 "elite") and I'd imagine the lack of game time is limiting him.

Perhaps a fresh face is needed as it is harder to bring about change as an insider. However who is to say they could have done better given the circumstances of an aging pack in slow decline and constrained by the IRFU's fitness programme and unable to bring in new NIQ players and put the stamp on the squad as they see fit?

Podge_irl

shmaido wrote: »

RWC should always be the focus of irish rugby.

Why?

Seriously, I despise the focus on the RWC. The 6N should always be Ireland's priority as far as I am concerned. Besides, you can't focus on winning the RWC without first being consistently able to compete in the 6N (or 3N). England showed that. Even on a more micro scale, Leinster were only able to win the HEC after managing to become consistent in the ML. It's silly to think that Ireland can "sacrifice" the 6N (a tournament we've won once in 26 years) in order to win the RWC. Teams need a culture of winning and experience of being in difficult do-or-die matches in order to perform on the biggest stage.

clsmooth

yimrsg wrote: »

McGahan has to me struggled within the constraints of the IRFU's player management programme as injuries to key players and their eventual rehabilitation into the match day squad, Schmidt also started with a rocky patch but has eventually worked out a winning scheme within the confines (he hasn't had near the level of injuries to key players as Munster tbh).

This isn't true IMO. Schmidt had/has long term injuries to Wright, Cullen, Fitzgerald, and Kearney and was also missing BOD and Heaslip for a few big HC games. He brought through players such as Ross (ok gave him playing time, he's been around for years), Toner, O'Malley and Ryan as a result of this. To say Leinster didn't have injuries is ridiculous, they just coped better with them.

Munster need to blood these youngsters they have and surely at least 1 or 2 will go on to be great players but how will we know if they never get a chance. To me these injuries were an opportunity for Munster to try a few new players.

TheHighRoad

I agree with the above. Leinster were also missing a lot of their key players due to the Irish management scheme and also lost their captain, starting tight head and two Lions players for large chunks of the season. All 4 are considered some of Leinster's best players! Heaslip and O'Driscoll, Leinster's two biggest players were absent for huge games such as Clermont home and away and Saracens. Leinster have been just as unlucky with injuries as Munster but Leinster had cover and young players whereas Munster only really have a squad of 15 so it effected them worse. To say its anything but McGahan's fault for not building a bigger squad is wrong imo.

irishbucsfan

This was Ireland's Under-20 team in the last game of the 6 Nations last year

15 - Andrew Conway (Blackrock College/Leinster)
14 - Darren Hudson (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
13 - Brendan Macken (Blackrock/Leinster)
12 - Nevin Spence (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
11 - Tiernan O'Halloran (Galwegians/Connacht)
10 - James McKinney (Queen's University/Ulster)
9 - John Cooney (UCD/Leinster)
1 - Jack O'Connell (Lansdowne/Leinster)
2 - Niall Annett (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
3 - Stewart Maguire (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
4 - David O'Callaghan (UCC/Munster)
5 - Ben Marshall (UCD/Leinster)
6 - Rhys Ruddock (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
7 - Dominic Ryan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
8 - Patrick Butler (Shannon/Munster)

This was Ireland's team that faced Italy Under-20s last November, and is a good indication of the squad for this year's 6N

15. Michael Sherlock (Clontarf/Leinster)
14. Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster)
13. Alex Kelly (UCD/Leinster)
12. Luke Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster)
11. Sam Coghlan Murray (UCD/Leinster)
10. Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)
9. Peter du Toit (UCD/Leinster)
1. Andrew Warwick (Ballymena/Ulster)
2. David Doyle (UCD/Leinster)
3. Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster)
4. Ian Henderson (Queen's University/Ulster)
5. Daniel Qualter (Buccaneers/Connacht)
6. Michael Kearney (Clontarf/Leinster)
7. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster) (capt)
8. Eoin McKeon (Galwegians/Connacht)

There is a huge problem in the Munster academy if they can't produce even one Under-20 international to contribute to that team. Surely during the success of recent years they could have found the resources to improve their academy more than they have. Until Munster can sort that out, I can't see them improving much.

The following key Munster players were born in 1982 or earlier: Du Preez, Horan, Hayes, Flannery, Buckley, O'Callaghan, O'Connell, O'Driscoll, Quinlan, Wallace, Coughlan, Stringer, O'Gara, Warwick, Howlett, Dowling, Murphy, Mafi, Tuitupou, Dowling

A lot of these guys will be considering retirement in the next 3 years, or will be at least getting on and in need of replacement. The players in the U-20 teams from above won't even be in their prime at that stage. Munster NEED to sort out their academy so they can start to bring through players of sufficient quality to live up to the memories of the generation that is leaving the team now.

All is not doomed however. Nagle and Butler, at least, look to be future stars but they need to be producing players like them every year if they are to remain even remotely as good as they were in the last decade.

TheHighRoad

Connacht are really starting to contribute. I think Connacht have very good things to come in the future going on those two teams and the likes of Griffin they are producing more than Munster despite having a much smaller academy, pool of players and budget! Must be doing something right out west.

pappyodaniel

I would happily 'sacrifice' 2 seasons to take a chance playing the young guys. The best way of bringing in fresh talent is to blood them along with the established players, almost a 50/50 split. A young prop alongside an experience one, same with the second row, back row, half backs and centres.
Eg A Stringer/Keatley, Murray/O'Gara, Nagle/O'Connell etc.

yimrsg

clsmooth wrote: »

This isn't true IMO. Schmidt had/has long term injuries to Wright, Cullen, Fitzgerald, and Kearney and was also missing BOD and Heaslip for a few big HC games. He brought through players such as Ross (ok gave him playing time, he's been around for years), Toner, O'Malley and Ryan as a result of this. To say Leinster didn't have injuries is ridiculous, they just coped better with them.

Munster need to blood these youngsters they have and surely at least 1 or 2 will go on to be great players but how will we know if they never get a chance. To me these injuries were an opportunity for Munster to try a few new players.

I was ambiguous there and meant the degree of injuries suffered aren't close. POC only played one game in the space of nine months (I think from reading here) for Munster and Ireland. Flannery has also suffered massively recently with concurrent injuries and it looks like time is against him ever returning to being the player he once was (I hope I'm wrong). It's a matter of opinion but these 2 are/were probably the most potent forwards for Munster.

All players get bumps and knocks and have to sit out matches but Leinster players in general are younger than their Munster counterparts and were more able to cope than an older player. A more serious injury coupled with a 30+ player is worrying but if the player is 25 then it's less career threatening. Leinster's squad depth is an unfair yard stick on Munster as they don't possess similar player bases. I think Kearney, Fitz and Stan were/are the only long term injuries atm and maybe only Stan's injury was/is near the level of injuries suffered by POC/JF which could curtail a career. Even then the IRFU/Leinster has replaced Stan with Newlands on the short term, no replacement can be made/called in for JF.

The injury to POC wasn't the opportunity it could have been as MOD was the next in line, Munster have 3 senior locks vs Leinster's 2 with Toner the next in line. Nagle was either 4th/5th in contention with Donnacha Ryan there also. Varley has (finally) benefited from injuries but since Munster's players have accrued such experience there is a natural reluctance to jettison that experience but there has to be a handover period, where youth is blended with experience. This hasn't happened in Munster.

There is a greater resistance/reluctance in Munster compared to other provinces to give younger players game time. This could be due to management not rating the players coming through (which raises another issue; is Munster's player development not as good as it could be and was this recognised and ammended or do the management there not have good judgement?), players on central contracts being preferentially selected or due to the big IRFU contracts still residing with Munster's elder statesmen to the detriment of the younger players, culminating in a declining pack of forwards and unable (or unwilling), to make the changes to reinvigorate the playing squad.

To me, Munster have been reactive not proactive in addressing these concerns.

Judgement Day

Everybody knows that apart from a generally ageing squad our biggest problem is in the scrum and at tighthead in particular but what do the powers that be do get a tighthead prop from NZ who can't scrummage! I didn't think that George Hook was being fair when five minutes after seeing Peter Borlase in his first for Munster stated that he couldn't scrummage, but he has been proven right. If there's anything left in the kitty after paying for Richie McCaw and Ma'a Nonu a reliable tighthead must be found. The rest of the lads are fine and there's plenty of new kids knocking on the door. Another thing missing from Munster is a gameplan and that's the coaching team's fault. When the All Blacks get possession they attack in a wave and are lethal, however these days when Munster get the ball it's passed across the field until they run out of space and it ends up in touch. A plan and a couple of new forwards and Munster will be back with a vengeance.

CouchSmart

Get rid of some unnecessary NIQ players has to be the first port of call. No point in having Howlett taking up a spot when you have no pack and no ball.

Munster NIQs:
du Preez - Good loosehead is a waste without a tighthead.
Tuitoupo - Average enough player, I assume was only brought in as a stop gap due to no players wanting to come north during a WC year.
Mafi - Can play behind a good pack - '08, '09.
Howlett - A winger of his quality is a waste behind a nothing pack.
Warwick - He's going to be missed though hopefully Jones, Deasy, Keatley will lessen the blow.
Borlase(Project) - Hasn't looked good so far. If he can become a good scrummager then he's perfect.

TL;DR: Sort out the pack before buying NIQ backs. NIQ tighthead should be a minimum requirement after the WC.

profitius

McGahan had meetings last year about the academy. They made some changes etc but we won't see the benefit of the changes for another few years. The net is bigger now so they're likely to catch more talent.

Munsters squad now is massive but theres a big problem. We don't know what the younger players are like at a higher level because they're getting blocked from playing by average players.

I'd like to see them cut a large chunk of the squad off and spend the money on international class players including a tighthead and give more places to young players. Theres some good players who missed out on the academy like Dineen and Scanlon etc. Deasy should be playing more for starters especially now since Warwick is going in the summer he should take Warwicks place for some games.

The biggest change that has to come is in attitude. I don't think there's as much of a problem with the squad as most people think.

Not player's attitude, coaches.

People discuss the Munster Academy as being weaker than Leinster and Ulster's, a very very big reason for this in my opinion is that it is an unattractive place to join! How many players from the Academy actually come through? As opposed to guys starting ML games after 15 months in the Academy in Leinster and Ulster, and guys starting HEC games after less than 2 years in both too?

Why would I, as an 18 year old with potential, try to be part of the maybe 15% of Academy players who get game time at Munster? 85% of the players drift through, completely under the radar of other clubs, of national teams and of the public.

The attitude that has to change is in giving these guys some responsibility, and a chance to show that they can compete. I posted it before, what will make someone more eager to improve, 12 games from September to December in the "A" squad, or 10 games with the As and 2 bench appearances in ML competitive games, rewarding performances in the A games?

There is a sense of staleness in the senior team, which can definitely affect the younger lads too, as they get frustrated by the mismanagement

molloyjh

Podge_irl wrote: »

Why?

Seriously, I despise the focus on the RWC. The 6N should always be Ireland's priority as far as I am concerned. Besides, you can't focus on winning the RWC without first being consistently able to compete in the 6N (or 3N). England showed that. Even on a more micro scale, Leinster were only able to win the HEC after managing to become consistent in the ML. It's silly to think that Ireland can "sacrifice" the 6N (a tournament we've won once in 26 years) in order to win the RWC. Teams need a culture of winning and experience of being in difficult do-or-die matches in order to perform on the biggest stage.

I wouldn't agree with the idea of sacrificing the 6Ns for the RWC. I would agree with using every opportunity you have to develop a full squad with real competition for places though. That kind of thing can have hugely positive impacts for more than just a few months. I would sacrifice this 6Ns to set us up better for the next 3 or 4 years, including the RWC and subsequent 6Ns tournaments.

We've had 1 huge problem in Ireland, not just the national squad but provincially, of playing it safe and picking the same starting XV as much as possible. That cannot continue. Cheika was getting great credit for the work done on the Leinster set-up over the last few years, but yet Leinster looked stale and tired for the latter part of last season. It was really frustrating not to see the likes of McFadden coming into the side in 09/10 after the previous season, plus the Lions tour etc. But the same starting XV were getting the call up time and again.

But now look at the difference in Leinster when players know form will bring caps. Performances get rewarded. Their form right now is superb. The pool of players isn't any different, but how they are being used is. I think that's where Munster need to go, and Ireland. Take Nagle for example. He looks like a truly great prospect. But how much senior game time is he getting? What incentive has he to perform? Give the young lads that and they'll step up. If they step up the older lads will have to as well.

Monty Burnz

Emmet, the funny thing is that if Munster engage in the heavy rebuilding that they need to, suddenly the number of guys breaking through from the academy is going to mushroom. Instead of gradually feeding them in, Munster have persisted with the tried and trusted. Now hopefully a lot of the legends will be allowed to pass into history and there will be opportunities aplenty.

shmaido

Podge_irl wrote: »

Why?

Seriously, I despise the focus on the RWC. The 6N should always be Ireland's priority as far as I am concerned. Besides, you can't focus on winning the RWC without first being consistently able to compete in the 6N (or 3N). England showed that. Even on a more micro scale, Leinster were only able to win the HEC after managing to become consistent in the ML. It's silly to think that Ireland can "sacrifice" the 6N (a tournament we've won once in 26 years) in order to win the RWC. Teams need a culture of winning and experience of being in difficult do-or-die matches in order to perform on the biggest stage.

I never said anything about sacrificing the 6n or the HC, and why would you have to, a long term focus would never completey discount any short term goals as long as there is a balance, which munster have just not attained, sure you only have to look at the age profile of the munster squad and also the amount of NIQ's that were brought in to fill the gaps, it tells the story in itself.

I agree with you about the winning culture, but you see Leinster were able to get to this stage without flogging a dead horse...

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

Why?

Seriously, I despise the focus on the RWC. The 6N should always be Ireland's priority as far as I am concerned. Besides, you can't focus on winning the RWC without first being consistently able to compete in the 6N (or 3N). England showed that. Even on a more micro scale, Leinster were only able to win the HEC after managing to become consistent in the ML. It's silly to think that Ireland can "sacrifice" the 6N (a tournament we've won once in 26 years) in order to win the RWC. Teams need a culture of winning and experience of being in difficult do-or-die matches in order to perform on the biggest stage.

The competitions dont clash, so I dont see why both cant be given equal focus.

Podge_irl

shmaido wrote: »

I never said anything about sacrificing the 6n or the HC, and why would you have to, a long term focus would never completey discount any short term goals as long as there is a balance, which munster have just not attained, sure you only have to look at the age profile of the munster squad and also the amount of NIQ's that were brought in to fill the gaps, it tells the story in itself.

I agree with you about the winning culture, but you see Leinster were able to get to this stage without flogging a dead horse...

The Munster problem is somewhat different from any Irish one. I dislike the notion of giving rolling contracts to players who might not make the following World Cup and other such ideas, as it implies that the RWC is all that matters. If you start with that kind of behaviour it will become quite hard to keep hold of more experienced players.

The problem Munster have is that they have made very poor attempts at regenerating their squad from the inside. It's depressing seeing what has happened to the likes of Donnacha Ryan - he's unlikely to ever make the grade at this point I think because no matter how he played he always found himself behind MOD, POC and DOC. Nagle has a similar problem now.

The only local player who has broken into the Munster team in the last few years is Earls, and even he was shunted around the backline consistently.

The competitions dont clash, so I dont see why both cant be given equal focus.

My issue is more with people who think that we "need" to blood players in a 6N or whatever in order to have them ready for the RWC. I think a consistent influx of new blood is always necessary or things stagnate, but I think operating on a 4 year cycle is silly. Ireland's, and Munster's, problem over the last decade is that it's taken far too long for players to break into the squad and little consideration seems to be given to form - as soon as marquee players were back from injury or whatever they would always slot straight back in.

stephen_n

Podge_irl wrote: »

Why?

Seriously, I despise the focus on the RWC. The 6N should always be Ireland's priority as far as I am concerned. Besides, you can't focus on winning the RWC without first being consistently able to compete in the 6N (or 3N). England showed that. Even on a more micro scale, Leinster were only able to win the HEC after managing to become consistent in the ML. It's silly to think that Ireland can "sacrifice" the 6N (a tournament we've won once in 26 years) in order to win the RWC. Teams need a culture of winning and experience of being in difficult do-or-die matches in order to perform on the biggest stage.

All what focus???

The whole problem is there is no forward thinking in Irish rugby apart from the forced resting of players in games. In the AI's we play to win as many as possible, in the 6N we do the same, so where is this focus on the RWC?

CouchSmart

Nagles been added to Munster's HC squad - problem solved :P

Monty Burnz

Wow, our influence is being felt. Tony McGahan, give us a wave!

TheHighRoad

Some harsh truths here....http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/deadrubber/2011/01/17/munster-need-to-go-back-to-their-roots/

Monty Burnz

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Emmet, the funny thing is that if Munster engage in the heavy rebuilding that they need to, suddenly the number of guys breaking through from the academy is going to mushroom. Instead of gradually feeding them in, Munster have persisted with the tried and trusted. Now hopefully a lot of the legends will be allowed to pass into history and there will be opportunities aplenty.

I agree that we are due an explosion of youth now, but this is less than ideal. The "perfect situation" would see younger players play alongside the experienced soldiers for a season at least, getting experience without much pressure, and a chance to learn from someone who's already "done it" and is still doing it.

Unfortunately, this just doesn't seem like a likely scenario, and we're going to see 4/5 players starting most games next season who've less than 5 senior caps each.

The damage was done 2 years ago, and every week that nothing was done about it, was another week of pain for Munster's development.

Judgement Day

TheHighRoad wrote: »

Some harsh truths here....http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/deadrubber/2011/01/17/munster-need-to-go-back-to-their-roots/

About two worthwhile comments there, most of it was rehashed media drivel. Two good props and Munster can take on anything that comes against them.

trackguy

Judgement Day wrote: »

About two worthwhile comments there, most of it was rehashed media drivel. Two good props and Munster can take on anything that comes against them.

That's not quite true.

The 3 secondrows for Munster - POC, DOC, MOD - are not good enough in the loose. The same is true obviously for Ireland.

This is exaserbated by a backrow without the explosiveness of all the top teams. Leamy, Wallace, Quinlan, Coughlan are not dynamic enough to compete at the top.

As well as the front row, I think Munster compare very unfavourably with their rivals throughout the pack.

profitius

trackguy wrote: »

That's not quite true.

The 3 secondrows for Munster - POC, DOC, MOD - are not good enough in the loose. The same is true obviously for Ireland.

This is exaserbated by a backrow without the explosiveness of all the top teams. Leamy, Wallace, Quinlan, Coughlan are not dynamic enough to compete at the top.

As well as the front row, I think Munster compare very unfavourably with their rivals throughout the pack.

POC is world class lock in the loose. Heis workrate is massive.