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Mass Poll
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17-01-2011 8:02pm#1Catholics: watch the little video on RTE player. You don't have to watch the whole thing - I didn't - just watch the start, the middle, and the end, and then answer the poll question.
http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1089086
Once you've voted, post your comments and thoughts. Maybe also add your age profile too. I'll add my comments later.What do you think of that Mass on RTE? 18 votes
I think it is great!0%I think it is a bit lame.38%
7 votes
I don't know what to think.44%
8 votes
I don't think it matters to be honest. Mass is Mass.16%
3 votes
0
Comments
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GIRM and the Canon Law has no problem with there being praise and worship music in the mass. You are actually more Catholic than the Magisterium.
The only possible cure is a dose of Jesus' parables, 3 times a day for the rest of your life
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Xizors Palace wrote: »I think you should avoid judgemental pronouncements about my being more Catholic than the Magisterium, when you have not the intellectual competence nor authority to do it.
I didn't realise I was being judgmental. Perhaps I lacked the intellectual competence. I didn't realise there was an office for questioning if you are going beyond the word and spirit of the law. What does the law state the capacities are to receive that authority?
The reality is, as repeatedly stated, that while Gregorian Chant has a primary role in the Roman Rite it is not an exclusive role. There is no restriction in the GIRM or in any liturgical text that I am aware of (in my intellectual incompetency) that excludes other modes of music, including contemporary praise.
I agree by the way, with your general judgment on contemporary praise music. CS Lewis had it right when he said it was 6th rate poetry set to 7th rate music. But us evangelicals are, for what it's worth, happy to lend you the best of our music!
As an aside, the (arbitrary?) separation of sacred and secular is one of those distinctions that seems only to do harm to Christian (and other) thought.0 -
I don't know what to think.
Well, you know, why do you think we are so pleased to have those Anglicans coming over? We hope, at least I do, that they bring their good musical and liturgical taste, with them.I didn't realise I was being judgmental. Perhaps I lacked the intellectual competence. I didn't realise there was an office for questioning if you are going beyond the word and spirit of the law. What does the law state the capacities are to receive that authority?
The reality is, as repeatedly stated, that while Gregorian Chant has a primary role in the Roman Rite it is not an exclusive role. There is no restriction in the GIRM or in any liturgical text that I am aware of (in my intellectual incompetency) that excludes other modes of music, including contemporary praise.
I agree by the way, with your general judgment on contemporary praise music. CS Lewis had it right when he said it was 6th rate poetry set to 7th rate music. But us evangelicals are, for what it's worth, happy to lend you the best of our music!
As an aside, the (arbitrary?) separation of sacred and secular is one of those distinctions that seems only to do harm to Christian (and other) thought.
The GIRM doesn't say anything about Mass facing the people (it actually hints at the opposite if you read between the lines), nor did the Council say anything about removing altar-rails or statues or beautiful altars paid for by the pennies of the poor, yet all these things happened in the name of Vatican II. The music thing is part of that.
CS Lewis had his head screwed on well. You know, talking of competence, myself, I am not terribly competent. I have read about these things and know quite a bit, but putting it all into words - articulating my thoughts, is something I need to work on. Cardinal Ratzinger/Benedict XVI has a very good insight into the authentic spirit of the liturgy, knowing exactly where we went wrong following the Council. I take my leads from him and the Magisterium. He speaks about sacred and profane music in his book, The Spirit of the Liturgy.0 -
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Xizors Palace wrote: »Well, you know, why do you think we are so pleased to have those Anglicans coming over? We hope, at least I do, that they bring their good musical and liturgical taste, with them.
They might be really funny or have cool lego that they'll let you play with too.
Arguing from silence is well, worthy of a silent response.
I have read Ratzinger extensively and can appreciate his significance. Introduction to Christianity and Called To Communion both provoked lots of fruitful thought for me. But I am afraid that reading about Catholic Liturgy is something I would only do to pass an exam. There is just too much Barth, Calvin and Augustine in the world to be distracted. 0 -
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Jeepers OP, if the music in the video linked bothered you I'd love to see your reaction to worship sessions at the churches I attend where a normal sunday consists of stuff like this...
and this
http://sundaypm.bandcamp.com/track/we-want-freedom (free download on this link, highly recommend music from an amazingly talented man, personal friend and the worship leader at my Church you can buy his stuff on iTunes, just search for Andrew Feeney![/plug]).
or even this, a personal favourite...
Tis a great way to start a bit o learnin' 'bout the lord!
Guitars, drums, bass, 3 vocalists, sure it's like a mini rock concert, great stuff altogether!
Sure it wouldn't be Sunday without 10 people on stage giving it socks for God for an hour to get ya pumped 0 -
I don't know what to think.I like this actually:
I even like the odd bit of Shine, Jesus Shine
but these songs do not belong at Mass. At praise and worship sessions yes, but at Mass, no. For Mass we require an altogether different approach. Many Catholics do not accept this, so you are not alone in your opposition.
Since we are sharing videos, check this one out - a contemporary rendition of the Litany of the Saints:
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I don't know what to think.I thought it was pretty good. The choir was OK, and the guy in the green robe doing his Father Ted impression seemed like a good old stick.
Seriously though, this is pretty much how the Catholic Church has grown in the rest of the world, by fusing cultural elements with its traditional teachings. If you were to attend mass in Nairobi or Jakarta then you would expect to find them using the kind of music that is attractive to the majority of the population there.
This is actually one of the main differences between Christianity and Islam - what Lamin Sanneh (an African theologian and professor at Yale) calls 'translatability'. Islam exalts Arabic culture and language above all others - even to the extent that people in cold climates wear clothing more suited to the desert and read their Scriptures in Arabic even when they don't understand Arabic.
Christianity, however, has shown a wonderful adaptivity in dressing up the core message in cultural ways that suit the people groups it is trying to reach.
The Church is not Hebrew, or Latin, or Greek. It is the people of God worldwide, and that implies that African American music is every bit as sacred as Gregorian chant (which was itself a huge innovation when it replaced the music that previous generations thought was 'sacred').
Somebody somewhere made the point that it is funny how some people are all for inculturation but not for European musical stuff. Can't for the life of me remember where I read that recently
.... But basically, we get bongos and guitars and stuff in Kildare and Cork, but we ignore our patrimony - the Gregorian chant and all that stuff. The chant actually harks back to the temple worship and the Psalms. The rich musical liturgical heritage of Europe is not something to be stuffed in a museum drawer, it's our culture and heritage to be lived and used.
It's funny that what we saw following Vatican II was a form of dis-inculturation in Europe, whereby we threw out our wonderful European heritage, culture, our musical patrimony, and imported **** from elsewhere. If we want inculturation, why not have more Gaelic Masses? I attended one once in Scotland - it was beautiful.
It's also funny that, just as the secular world, the non-belieiving, are discovering the beauty of chant (see the major releases which have done very, very well) and young people are loving it cos it's on the soundtrack of their computer games. They think this is what Catholics do in church. Were they to come to church, they'd be disappointed. I know I am disappointed. At Mass in my local church, the hymns are banal and cringeworthy. I merely endure the lameness. If there was an alternative, I'd be there.
There is authentic inculturation, and there is what I would call dis-inculturation, which is a denial of what is one's own, and which would foist lame **** on people who come to Mass. I'm sick and tired of it, and so are all my friends, both male and female. We long for reverence and sacred beauty. If we want a rock concert, we go to a rock concert.
There's a good conference held in Cork each year on the Catholic Liturgy; last year it addressed sacred music: some info on that: http://en.gloria.tv/?media=69309
There is a very good article here on Perverted Liturgy and the True Church
Excerpt:For those who were liturgically tormented in their youth by weapons of Mass destruction, it’s almost a sweet revenge to hear the words recently spoken by Cardinal Antonio Canizares Llovera, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. (If, like me, you suffered such abuse, briefly recall all those groovy felt banners with hip slogans, “relevant liturgical presiders,” and ex-nuns who forced you to sing the execrable rot from Glory and Praise. Now, read on…) “Worship becomes perverted,” His Eminence said, “when we have a celebration in which the community celebrates itself. The principle should be that God occupies the central place.” Further, he complained that, too often, the Mass is “reduced to a mere banquet, a celebration of the community, a commemoration, but not the very sacrifice of Christ who gives himself up for us on the Cross.”
Underscoring the Cardinal’s comments about reverence and God-centeredness in the Mass was an important doctrinal truth: The Church is essentially Eucharistic, and, as such, it is God’s chosen means of uniting men with Himself and with each other. Or, in his own words, “the Church is the living and efficacious sacrament [sign] of union with God and unity among the entire human race.” It is not our “sincerity” that unites us to God. It is not the United Nations that effects unity among men. According to Cardinal Canizares, the true unity of mankind with each other and with God, “is only possible through participation in the Body of Christ. This is what happens in the Eucharist.”
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Lex orandi lex credendi est. As we pray, so we believe. Liturgy and doctrine must both be restored if the restoration of either is to be authentic. For restoration to take place, continuity is essential. For continuity to be real, tradition is indispensable. And tradition, dear reader, is good for you.
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Some extracts from the letter of Pyotr Tchaikovsky to the rector of Kiev Theological Academy, dated 1882:
"The chant of Bratsky Monastery, which is highly regarded in Kiev as remarkably beautiful, annoys me, depresses me and even terrifies me. For some reason starting from the end of last century in our churches we adopted that unnaturally sweet style of Italian music of the 18th century, which in my opinion is not suitable for church in general and particularly for our Orthodox worship. Last Sunday I listened reluctantly to that strange, mazurka-like, nauseatingly affected Kyrie eleison. When the royal doors of the iconostasis closed the singer gabbled on one chord Praise the Lord from the Heavens as though casting aside the heavy burden of praising God in favour of their obligation to entertain the public with concert music, and summoned up their strength to begin performing a long, mindless, shapeless concerto, based in an alien mode, trivial, without talent, overflowing with vocal tricks ill befitting a place of worship, I experienced a surge of indignation which increased the more they sang. Now a bass bawled out a wild, howling roar, now a solo treble began to squeal, then a snatch of a phrase from some Italian trepak was heard, now an operatic love motif rang out with unnatural sweetness in the most rough, bare, tame harmonisation, now the whole choir faded to an exaggeratedly delicate pianissimo, now began to roar, to bellow at the tops of their voices. Oh God! And where precisely did this musical orgy begin? Precisely at that moment when the central act of the whole Divine Liturgy was being celebrated, when your Grace and your concelebrants administered the Body and Blood of Christ. I made my way out of the cathedral and I noticed that a lot of people were leaving too. They all looked well educated and belonging to upper class. But they were leaving because of a very different reason. From their conversations I understood that they were the people who came to the church not for a worship but for entertainment. They were very pleased with the concert and were giving high credit to the choir and the cantor. It was clear that it's only because of the concert they were there and as soon as it was finished they started to leave."
This is an example (a good quality one) of what the creator of the Swan Lake and the Nutcracker was opposing to be sang in churches. Glory To God In The Highest by Dmitry Bortniansky:
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we4t0fAnGBA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvfHDP3RI3I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyheJ480LYA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWt5y301BSY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzrpCWbzORMAdvertisement