The definitive rear and front wheel drive debate

GTE

Hello all,

I had a conversation with someone who is in no way into cars. She mentioned to me that her parents were having problems with their rear wheel drive C or E class because it didn't drive well in the snow.

She went on to tell me it was because it was rear wheel drive and not front wheel and that they had to have loads of bags of coal in the boot to get weight on the rear wheels. I have heard that a lot on the radio as good advice to get the best out of your rear wheel driven wagon.

She went on to say they were considering selling their car for a front wheel drive car just because of this. All wheel drive is now an option since I mentioned it to her.

My response was that for the most part they could solve their problems with better driving technique, though its probably an auto so I cant really comment on how easy that is, and getting the right tyres for the job.
She wouldn't accept the Winter tyre idea because where ever they heard the advice they said RWD was just all wrong for the snow and would never work. That must be the jist of what they understood if they are going to sell the ruddy yoke.

I was just wondering what the boardsies thought of this?
I dont think there is a better or worse when you have winters fitted. I think you could have a good, better and best if you take all wheel drive into it but not worse, less worse and fantastic as per my understanding of their understanding.

Has anyone else come across people willing to sell a perfectly good car because of, unknown to them, a mix of bad driving and poor tyre choice was leaving them stranded?

I was a bit flabbergasted by and and very willing to make a swap 2000 Golf for a C or E class?

Plug

Wasn't there a lad here recently, giving in his 520 M sport for a 4 wheel drive because of the snow?:D

ottostreet

I drove a RWD BMW 318is last year in the snow and ice, without any traction control.

I didnt get stuck anywhere, and didnt have any problems. But it was bloody scary sometimes. I know its not the most powerful RWD ever, but I wouldnt switch from RWD because of it.

I'm actually looking to go back to RWD.

Was there not recently a thread about what's best in the snow where all the stuff mentioned here was discussed?

-Corkie-

Well from what the experts say here the tyres do the job and as you said yourself driving technique.

Actually now you said my neighbour had a similar conversation with me that her corolla was useless in the snow. She then told me that her husband even put 4 bags of coal in the boot.....:D

GTE

RoverJames wrote: »

Was there not recently a thread about what's best in the snow where all the stuff mentioned here was discussed?

Not too sure. Search function doesn't like FWD and RWD and front and rear wasn't helping too much either

EDIT:
Chapow, getting somewhere now! Found something in December.

Matt Simis

IMO, if they cannot (or feel they cannot) drive a RWD safely, then they shouldnt, let them off to FWD land. I just hope enough people dont have this opinion (and I assume they dont, as Ireland has milder weathers than proper Europe and they do just fine in RWD) that it doesnt change the product ranging.

The fact they were not even aware of AWD makes me think they are a lot more clueless than her heard on radio answers suggest.
A load of these people wrote angry letters about BMW to the papers too.

bbk wrote: »

Not too sure. Search function doesn't like FWD and RWD and front and rear wasn't helping too much either

Try RWD* and FWD* !

GTE

Matt Simis wrote: »

IMO, if they cannot (or feel they cannot) drive a RWD safely, then they shouldnt, let them off to FWD land. I just hope enough people dont have this opinion (and I assume they dont, as Ireland has milder weathers than proper Europe and they do just fine in RWD) that it doesnt change the product ranging.

The fact they were not even aware of AWD makes me think they are a lot more clueless than her heard on radio answers suggest.
A load of these people wrote angry letters about BMW to the papers too.


Try RWD* and FWD* !

It was what I was thinking. When I mentioned the tyres she was very dismissive about it. As far as I know only the Irish Times or Independent carried an article about them.

Eric Cartman

only one kind of driver likes fwd


....in all seriousness

awd is by far the best option in my opinion but aside from that rwd is the only option for me, my old 4x4 (kia sorento) was permanent awd with a rwd bias on it (the rear wheels did most of the work) my current 4x4 (isuzu d-max) is selectable 4wd normally running as rwd - it was fine in the snow even in rwd , only had to use 4wd once or twice . With modern traction control etc there is no longer any advantage to fwd other than cost (which was the main reason it was introduced anyway) fwd cars are cheaper to make. Most high performance cars are still rwd and its building rwd cars where bmw and mercedes kept their prestige , the m5 wouldnt work in fwd as torque steer would kill its handling . Id never in my worst nightmares think about going to a fwd car but thats just me ,

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Everyone going around fussing about snow and ice, FFS relax its one week a year if that most years. RWD is far superior the vast majority of the time. Anyone who would change a car to FwD is a idiot and should have their license revoked and their car crushed. Its like saying I am going to change all my runners to ice skates, great when its icy but crap the rest of the time.

CLassic Irish overreaction to a bit of inclement weather.

FWD is fine for non looney power, it's hardly "crap" :rolleyes:

copacetic

Collins Rapid Tour wrote: »

Anyone who would change a car to FRD is a idiot and should have their license revoked and their car crushed.

I dunno, front rear drive sounds kinda cool!

btkm8unsl0w5r4

RoverJames wrote: »

FWD is fine for non looney power, it's hardly "crap" :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: think the "crap" was in relation to iceskates in the summer, but thanks for nitpicking.

copacetic wrote: »

I dunno, front rear drive sounds kinda cool!

Did the pedantic anonymous meeting get cancelled tonight

stealthyspeeder

The cold spell is by no means the single reason Im thinking of changing my car, but its definately a factor im thinking about when chosing my next. Im going to get an AWD car as I have never had one before and would be handy if it happened again. The memory of having a car that took an our to get out of a parking space one day is still painful! (just one of about 10 bad experiences I had) Driving tecnique and proper tyres are all good on a forum, but when you late, cold and stuck and your wheels spin in 4th with 80kg in the boot it gives you a different outlook!

Collins Rapid Tour

Collins Rapid Tour wrote: »

:rolleyes: think the "crap" was in relation to iceskates in the summer, but thanks for nitpicking.

I wasn't nitpicking, from reading your post I thought you were making an analogy between ice skates and fwd.

Voodoomelon

The statistics in regards the increase in sales of SUVs over the winter made me laugh.
Do people seriously drive for a few days in the snow and think I NEED a new car?

Really?! Seriously?!

If even one person has done this, god help us all.

ottostreet

Voodoomelon wrote: »

The statistics in regards the increase in sales of SUVs over the winter made me laugh.
Do people seriously drive for a few days in the snow and think I NEED a new car?

Really?! Seriously?!

If even one person has done this, god help us all.

Coming from a man with the car you drive, I'm inclined to wholeheartedly agree.

cranfordmike

I know somebody that was thinking of changing a yaris for an AWD jeep..!!! Granted they live in the wilds of Donegal. I advised the snow tyres, a lot cheaper...

I drove a 320d (RWD) through the cold weather this year and last and never got stuck. Covered a fair few miles travelling from Dublin to Donegal many times. I did have a shovel on the back seat just in case:rolleyes:.

jimgoose

Hi all.

FWD and RWD each have their advantages and disadvantages. It is true that torque steer becomes an issue when you pump a lot of horsepower through the front wheels, but in ice/snow, a FWD wants to run wide, and a RWD wants to spin out.

Most RWD cars - Mercs, BMWs and the like - have a limited-slip differential, meaning that when one drivewheel lets go you're down to one-wheel-drive. Jaguar-Landrover take a different tack. I have a 1999 Jaguar S-Type, and it has no limited-slip diff. The effect of it is simulated when needed (turning, etc.) by the traction control system. So when going straight, you effectively have a difflock. In other words, the back of 'er is basically a Rangie!

It is absolutely brilliant in snow and ice - the only problem I have with it is I forget completely about the weather and end up on my ass when I get out of the car! ;o)

Herselfs 1.4 Xsara is FWD,and doesn't really have enough power to get itself into serious trouble, and I find it quite OK in ice/snow as well.

Tea 1000

jimgoose wrote: »

Hi all.

FWD and RWD each have their advantages and disadvantages. It is true that torque steer becomes an issue when you pump a lot of horsepower through the front wheels, but in ice/snow, a FWD wants to run wide, and a RWD wants to spin out.

Most RWD cars - Mercs, BMWs and the like - have a limited-slip differential, meaning that when one drivewheel lets go you're down to one-wheel-drive. Jaguar-Landrover take a different tack. I have a 1999 Jaguar S-Type, and it has no limited-slip diff. The effect of it is simulated when needed (turning, etc.) by the traction control system. So when going straight, you effectively have a difflock. In other words, the back of 'er is basically a Rangie!

It is absolutely brilliant in snow and ice - the only problem I have with it is I forget completely about the weather and end up on my ass when I get out of the car! ;o)

Herselfs 1.4 Xsara is FWD,and doesn't really have enough power to get itself into serious trouble, and I find it quite OK in ice/snow as well.

I think you've mixed up the function of a limited slip differential. It's the opposite of above. A RWD car without one will spin on one wheel. A LSD will detect one wheel gathering much more momentum than the other and lock the diff so that both turn at the same time. An LSD isn't on that many BMW's and Merc's, as I found out when shopping for various 325Ci's and 330Ci's in the past!
I also doubt the diff in the Jag would lock the diff while under normal conditions, as to do so would be a little unsafe. However, it does seem like the Jag has some kind of LSD going by your description above.

dahamsta

I was wetting myself at the RWD drivers here and on bmw-driver whining about not being able to control their cars. I was up and down to Cork city from east Cork every 2nd day during the freeze. 10yo 4.4l RWD, didn't put a foot wrong apart from a bit of gentle sideways action up the hill out of Midleton.

Go 'way and learn how to drive for feck's sake. Of if ye can't and insist on switching to FWD, get out of the way on the ramps, ye're a danger to everyone else.

dahamsta

dahamsta wrote: »

I was up and down to Cork city from east Cork every 2nd day during the freeze.

Cork did escape quite lightly though in fairness compared to other parts of the country. Cork to Midleton Rd was fine.

dahamsta

It wasn't too bad coming to Cork - although for the first few days it was lethal from Midleton on - but outward bound from Carrigtwohill was deadly, particularly the outside lane because it didn't get any sun. (Of course what was more dangerous than the ice was the 'tards driving out there at normal driving speeds.) That's not even counting the fact that there wasn't a road the entire time. It's only just being put back together now. Badly. As is the tradition for the Cork councils, of course.

Shay Vader

dahamsta wrote: »

I was wetting myself at the RWD drivers here and on bmw-driver whining about not being able to control their cars. I was up and down to Cork city from east Cork every 2nd day during the freeze. 10yo 4.4l RWD, didn't put a foot wrong apart from a bit of gentle sideways action up the hill out of Midleton.

Go 'way and learn how to drive for feck's sake. Of if ye can't and insist on switching to FWD, get out of the way on the ramps, ye're a danger to everyone else.

Try driving a Ford Transit RWD unloaded in the Ice and Snow and see how far you're "Driving skills" get you. Its the weather conditions that set the context for FWD or RWD plus the Diff issue and weight. I've a lot of driving experience and no matter what control you apply it just slips away according to camber etc, frustrating but not neccesarily a reflection on a persons driving skills.The cure for this was to lay a half ton of blocks over the rear axle and it was like driving a 4WD, well almost. My s14a had no problems with plenty of power and a LSD so it was more what was beneath you in the recent conditions than "skills".

unkel

dahamsta wrote: »

10yo 4.4l RWD

You finally got yourself a V8 E38, A.? :cool:

Tea 1000

Shay Vader wrote: »

Try driving a Ford Transit RWD unloaded in the Ice and Snow and see how far you're "Driving skills" get you. Its the weather conditions that set the context for FWD or RWD plus the Diff issue and weight. I've a lot of driving experience and no matter what control you apply it just slips away according to camber etc, frustrating but not neccesarily a reflection on a persons driving skills.The cure for this was to lay a half ton of blocks over the rear axle and it was like driving a 4WD, well almost. My s14a had no problems with plenty of power and a LSD so it was more what was beneath you in the recent conditions than "skills".

I'd agree with this. Many RWD owners on here are giving themselves claps on the back a little too easily.
255/40R18's on a 3-series for example are f**k all addition on iced over snow too!

JerCotter7

jimgoose wrote: »

Hi all.

FWD and RWD each have their advantages and disadvantages. It is true that torque steer becomes an issue when you pump a lot of horsepower through the front wheels, but in ice/snow, a FWD wants to run wide, and a RWD wants to spin out.

Most RWD cars - Mercs, BMWs and the like - have a limited-slip differential, meaning that when one drivewheel lets go you're down to one-wheel-drive. Jaguar-Landrover take a different tack. I have a 1999 Jaguar S-Type, and it has no limited-slip diff. The effect of it is simulated when needed (turning, etc.) by the traction control system. So when going straight, you effectively have a difflock. In other words, the back of 'er is basically a Rangie!

It is absolutely brilliant in snow and ice - the only problem I have with it is I forget completely about the weather and end up on my ass when I get out of the car! ;o)

Herselfs 1.4 Xsara is FWD,and doesn't really have enough power to get itself into serious trouble, and I find it quite OK in ice/snow as well.

Most newer BMW's use ABS to stop one wheel spinning faster on take off so they use that as a LSD rather than a physical one. Which can be turned off. Pretty much the same as the Jag.

Ferris

I want past many FWD cars stuck on howth hill in my rwd s14.

We all know RWD is not as good as FWD in the snow but the limitation with nearly all cars during the cold snap was the mushy bit sitting behind the wheel.

jimgoose

Tea 1000 wrote: »

I think you've mixed up the function of a limited slip differential. It's the opposite of above. A RWD car without one will spin on one wheel. A LSD will detect one wheel gathering much more momentum than the other and lock the diff so that both turn at the same time. An LSD isn't on that many BMW's and Merc's, as I found out when shopping for various 325Ci's and 330Ci's in the past!
I also doubt the diff in the Jag would lock the diff while under normal conditions, as to do so would be a little unsafe. However, it does seem like the Jag has some kind of LSD going by your description above.

Egad - you're right. The S-Type actually uses an open diff, and relies on the traction control to avoid wheelspin. It works absolutely brilliantly on the snow and ice though - I was able to trundle away up hill and down dale during the cold snap there, while nearly-new Merc S-Classes floundered!

Joe 90

Lets look at the facts. FWD cars have the engine and gearbox over the driven wheels, hence most of the weight on the driven wheels. Therefore good traction. When people talk of RWD they generally mean Mecedes, Bmw, Lexus type vehicles where the engine is in the front and they drive the rear wheels. BMW make a big play about a 50/50 front/rear weight distribution, the others may not be 50/50 but are probably fairly close. However, 50/50 or not they are not going to have traction as good as an FWD in bad conditions.
I emphasis the bad conditions because when a car is under acceleration there is weight transfer from the front to the back. How much weight transfer there is will depend on the height of the CG, the wheelbase and the acceleration. In ice and snow there is so little acceleration that weight transfer is not going to come into the picture. Different story on dry tarmac though, even wet tarmac in some cases.
So in snow and ice, FWD will be better than conventional RWD as regards traction. A mid or rear engine RWD of course will have traction at least as good as the FWD, probably better.
However, when it comes to braking or cornering all 4 wheels come into action in either case so as far as the car is concerned neither FWD or RWD should have any fundamental advantage.
Then we come to the driver. When moving off/accelerating when the FWD looses traction it still tries to go in the direction that the front wheels are pointed. In general, when it runs out of grip in a corner it tries to run wide (understeer). If the driver does the instinctive thing and eases off the power it will probably sort itself out. In the RWD when the driving wheels loose grip they tend to want to pass the front wheels. The driver needs to apply the appropriate amount of opposite lock to control it. Not that instinctive and takes practice to become competent.

Either car will benefit from a limited slip differential as regards traction.

The FWD will almost certainly have power steering, in fact I can't think of one without it these days. The trouble with power steering is that it insulates the driver from feeling what the front tyres are doing. Given that the FWD understeers it would be nice to actually feel what is happening to the front of the car but that does not really happen.

The RWD, if reasonably light, can live without power steering so the driver can have much better steering feedback.

4WD of course, best traction of all and depending on how it is set up as regards torque split etc and understeer or oversteer.

So we really come down to 2 things. FWD best of the common layouts for traction but no matter what the layout cornering and braking are going to be equally good or bad depending on the grip available.

Tip. If you come to a hill that you cant get up in an FWD turn round and try to reverse up. The weight transfer due to the slope will put even more of the weight over the driven wheels.:)

dahamsta

Shay Vader wrote: »

Try driving a Ford Transit RWD

Who said anything about vans? It should have been obvious I was talking about the credulous twits in their RWD germans that bought for the badge rather than the engineering; cars that are perfectly capable of being driving on snow and ice, if driven correctly and carefully. The problem is that these people can't drive any car properly.

unkel wrote: »

You finally got yourself a V8 E38, A.? :cool:

Yup, the silver one that was sitting in Cork for yonks, you'd probably know it if you saw it. Nobody wanted it because it isn't a sport and it doesn't have TV screens or Extra Buttons, so I slid in there and got it checked over, and it was in great nick. Picked it up for a song and it flew through the NCT. Fab car.

gbee

Transit van a few years ago went into an estate down a slope during a rare snow event.

Could not get back out. So I stunned eveyone watching by reversing out no bother at all up hill.

Anan1

Ferris wrote: »

I want past many FWD cars stuck on howth hill in my rwd s14.

We all know RWD is not as good as FWD in the snow but the limitation with nearly all cars during the cold snap was the mushy bit sitting behind the wheel.

dahamsta wrote: »

should have been obvious I was talking about the credulous twits in their RWD germans that bought for the badge rather than the engineering; cars that are perfectly capable of being driving on snow and ice, if driven correctly and carefully. The problem is that these people can't drive any car properly.

I disagree. IMO the point, in both cases, is to use the correct tyres. Getting around on ice on summer tyres is much the same as driving drunk - it's possible, and you'll probably make it, but it's still a pretty stupid & dangerous thing to do. Of course, if you put the right tyres on the car then this whole thread is pretty much redundant.;)

Tea 1000

Joe 90 wrote: »

Tip. If you come to a hill that you cant get up in an FWD turn round and try to reverse up. The weight transfer due to the slope will put even more of the weight over the driven wheels.:)

I would have thought the same, but people here say to do this if you have RWD. I'd have thought you'd have even less weight over the rear wheels in a RWD car if reversing up a hill

Anan1

Tea 1000 wrote: »

I would have thought the same, but people here say to do this if you have RWD. I'd have thought you'd have even less weight over the rear wheels in a RWD car if reversing up a hill

And you'd be right.

Joe 90

Tea 1000 wrote: »

I would have thought the same, but people here say to do this if you have RWD. I'd have thought you'd have even less weight over the rear wheels in a RWD car if reversing up a hill

If their problem is lack of driving skill more than lack of traction reversing a RWD my indeed help them.

sneakyST

Meh - after having two "offs", one in this snowy period and one in last years in both FWD and RWD - I thought the RWD was easier to control and I had a softer landing. FWD evidence attached:D

stevenmu

It's evidence that changing between FWD and RWD isn't going to make the difference between crashing and not crashing

sneakyST

stevenmu wrote: »

It's evidence that changing between FWD and RWD isn't going to make the difference between crashing and not crashing

No but there is a difference between being on ones side and having all four wheels on the ground:pac:

stevenmu

True

I have to say I've found RWD to be fine. The back is a little more likely to slide out, but very easy to control.

Ferris

Anan1 wrote: »

I disagree. IMO the point, in both cases, is to use the correct tyres. Getting around on ice on summer tyres is much the same as driving drunk - it's possible, and you'll probably make it, but it's still a pretty stupid & dangerous thing to do. Of course, if you put the right tyres on the car then this whole thread is pretty much redundant.;)

I agree that winter tyres will give you more grip but they are overkill for a country that in general has a mild climate.

The weaknesses of some drivers on snow and ice caused most of the problems imo. Poor decisions such as driving too fast, stopping on hills, driving waaaay too slow (5mph geniuses) and causing obstructions, uselessly spinning wheels pulling off in the wrong gear, locking brakes instead of pumping - all examples of how drivers failed to adopt to the conditions. Its not as simple as all rwd cars are deathtraps in the snow.

greysides

Tea 1000 wrote: »

I would have thought the same, but people here say to do this if you have RWD. I'd have thought you'd have even less weight over the rear wheels in a RWD car if reversing up a hill

It may be that the reverse gear is a lower gear than first forward- harder to stall when going slow enough not to spin the wheels.

Matt Simis

Just to add my 2c since on the "skillz" of driving RWD in Winter. My 850CSi is an incredibly annoying and frustrating but equally scary car to drive in the Winter. Even with Winter tyres (although Wide) its just crap in the Winter, it wheel spins in every gear, progress is at 20kph. At one point I was stopped on a small incline and it slid sideways (across the hill) in a weird physics defying motion. At another it froze around 6pm badly and I was, for the first time ever, the "slow" driver at the front of a long queue (Mondeos and Passats riding up my ass the whole way). And despite being in 4th at 25kph, RPM at 1100, it still did 2 half spins up into the ditch, much to the horror of onlookers.
I only tested it out a couple of days, both of which were sheet ice heavy, no snow.

My AWD car (granted Im cheating as I have Winters on it too) is, without joking, 10 times faster in bad weather. On our roads and weather, AWD reigns supreme. If you dont think so, you are either a godlike driver or have never been in a good AWD (no urban 4x4s dont count).

Which would I rather drive? The RWD no question. In dry or even just decent weather, its excellent. But anyone that says they arent harder to drive, I just cant agree.


PS: Worth nothing last year I also drove an Auto 530i (RWD, much newer than the 8series) and by comparison, its slow but controllable in the Snow and Ice. It still couldnt hold a candle to the AWD though.

stealthyspeeder

+1 Matt

Big engines with massive amounts of low rev torque are not designed for those conditions! I also had that that sideways physics defying slide at low speeds on hills!

unkel

dahamsta wrote: »

Yup, the silver one that was sitting in Cork for yonks, you'd probably know it if you saw it. Nobody wanted it because it isn't a sport and it doesn't have TV screens or Extra Buttons, so I slid in there and got it checked over, and it was in great nick. Picked it up for a song and it flew through the NCT. Fab car.

Nice! Well wear & enjoy

I loved overtaking in that car and the way the V8 gives instant torque when you want it :cool:

I used to drive (fast enough) on difficult enough roads non stop for over 4 hours to a client and I'd still be fresh enough to put in a full working day. Doubt if I'll ever have a car like it again...

dahamsta

@Matt Simis, I couldn't argue with you there, but you know yourself that it depends on the car. In your case, the V12 has a ton more torque that most RWD motors, mine included.

I don't think it's ALL down to skill, but I think it takes more than majority of the blame. Ferris' post is 100% on the button.

@unkel, cheers. Yup, the grunt is fab, but the comfort is why I bought it, going touring up North and in the UK - likely the continent too - over the next few years, and I ain't doing it in a van or a eurobox! Driving to Dublin is like going to the shops now...

Course, being in a position to overtake more than one car at a time is a big bonus.

endamurtagh

Regardless of RWD or FWD, all you need is a manual gearbox and experience driving and snow or ice are not half as scary as people make it out to be.
As for 4 wheel drive, great in snow and crap, but on ice instead of 2 wheels spinning you have 4.

Conor_M1990

Alot of its down to the driver imo doesnt really matter about the car I seen a landcriuser spin a beemer spin and a fiesta spin over the spell.Not really that hard to drive on snow and ice and im not claiming to be some driving god cos Im not I just used common sense take your time give yourself pently of room and youll be grand

dahamsta

The solution to all our problems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3PUu2Vn6h0

Anan1

Ferris wrote: »

I agree that winter tyres will give you more grip but they are overkill for a country that in general has a mild climate.

They're overkill if you're able to leave the car unused during the bad weather. When driving on snow or ice, the fact of the weather being unusual makes not a jot of difference to grip levels.;)

Ferris wrote: »

The weaknesses of some drivers on snow and ice caused most of the problems imo. Poor decisions such as driving too fast, stopping on hills, driving waaaay too slow (5mph geniuses) and causing obstructions, uselessly spinning wheels pulling off in the wrong gear, locking brakes instead of pumping - all examples of how drivers failed to adopt to the conditions. Its not as simple as all rwd cars are deathtraps in the snow.

That's not failure to adapt to the conditions, that's failure to adapt to driving on the wrong tyres. I hear what you're saying about technique, but it doesn't change the fact that given the correct tyres any car, either FWD or RWD, could have easily coped with most of our recent bad weather. It just seems incredible to me that someone would drive a car on ice on summer tyres and then try to blame either the car or their driving skills for their failure to make progress.