price of 200sqm passive house
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18-01-2011 1:10am#1
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........i know from talking to local building contractors that they have no experience in building to this standard.
im thinking (although im not sure if this is a good idea) about researching German or Swedish factory built houses which are designed passive....I would have to deal with the logistics of importing it here, and also who would build it.
...you've hit the nail on the head with the former point. You do not want to be the training ground for someone - if they themselves don't understand what you're trying to achieve, well.........ymmv and all that.
....the latter point I'd say this: the best built system in the world, is useless if the assembly of it on site isn't to the same standard, and preferably by the actual manufacturer, not sub-contractor's. I'm quite sure German's and Swedes will quote you to do so, but it will come back to price.
The other thing I'd say too, is that the phrase 'Passive House' is beginning to slip into the vernacular like 'Hoover' ...........and whilst those of who build may know it's a building with 'x' performance/properties, many aspiring home-builders think it's something else. Example: we built a lovely house for a lady, and she fitted GSHP, Solar, MHRV. Then, add 1 x open fire and 1 x stove
The lady had turf to burn, and she wasn't not having it in the house ! The kicker was the back door, though. A half-door 
What the MHRV etc will make of it, and how it'll affect things on those days when it's open is.......interesting ! 
Like I said: it's what the lady wanted. Ode To The Motorist
“And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road”
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II may change my tune once we're occupying the house, but as it stands I would tell anyone who isn't able to afford to pay for the very best experience to run as fast as you can away from it.
I based my decision to go passiv on my experiences in appallingly built estate homes. A well built with traditional details home may well perform to an acceptable level.
A person I've grown to know very well is due to move into his close to certified home in April. He is of the same opinion, run a mile!
However, I truly hope to be wrong in time as I'd hate to feel that all the money was wasted. Be pragmatic and be careful about getting swept along with the enthusiasm of people promoting PH.
Hi sas - sorry to hear about your experience, but I do think you're right. In this market, I think the middle ground is not a bad place to be. And middle, to me, is the 35 - 48kW mark. YMMV and all that.
If I may, below is the text if an email conversation on the subject, which I'm pasting in below. It's not 'certified' science, just an attempt at common sense reasoning, and it's not a dig at PH, but it's an attempt to open up the debate on what's achievable, within given means. Even watching Duncan on TV last night, where he was talking to the pensioner burning 'smokey' coal - and wondering why, the pensioner said he couldn't afford the smokeless stuff. So we have to live within our means......
Anyway, a copy'n'paste extract (modified), as follows:
I suppose the issue of what’s ‘passive’ and what’s not is the issue. It’s kind of like the word ‘Hoover’ has worked it’s way into the vernacular. A lot of people say ‘passive’, but what they really mean is ‘efficient’.
Attached is a ‘typical’ energy costs sheet, showing 4 specifications of houses, and using a 148 sq m footprint ......select fuel, and you get an idea of annual heating costs. Fwiw, the house baseline (88.5kW) is based on an actual BER report for a real life, masonry house, so it’s a realistic figure. The 48kW house is based on an actual .....house that also has a certified BER. And of course we have he PH value of 15kW as we know.
In the example shown, a ‘true’ PH house will cost very little: € 184 p.a.
The 48kW house .....and so the energy bill there is € 589 p.a.
So, €589 - €184= €405, p.a. in fuel savings.
All good
Caveat on the next bit: it assumes many things.
Say, a ‘true’ PH house costs 10% more, to build (anecdotally it can be more).....then using a basic of €1100/sq m, very approximately, a PH house will cost an extra € 16,280 to build. So, dividing the €16280 extra build cost by the €405 p.a. annual fuel savings, means the ‘true’ PH house will recoup the cost in…………40 years. Let’s say fuel bills go mad, and it takes less………say 30 years. Or 20. Either way.......it's long........
Another factor of course, is that the extra build cost of €16,280 has to come from somewhere, and if it’s the bank, than you’ll find (using the AIB online mortgage calculator today……)…that it actually cost’s you €21,840 extra over the life of the mortgage. That’s an extra €5560 in interest alone. Once again, divide by our friend, the annual fuel saving of €405, and you find……that’s another 13.7 years, just to cover the interest……….
You can amend those sums to be whatever you want, but (fundamental) differences will remain, and you need to think about those.
Does this mean you shouldn’t build a true PH house ? No, certainly not, as true PH (can) bring other benefits in terms of comfort, health, etc., and yes, no bills is very, very attractive. It just means to make sure the eyes are open before you start. If after all that deliberation, it 'stacks up', then yes, build a PH.
Of course, if you don’t change your car once, for just one ‘cycle’, in your lifetime, you’ll recoup all the extra cost anyway !!,
Er, discuss ?
(confused? I think I am !! )
Look at it this way: with a B1 rating achievable for €750 sq m, I think it's good value. In a 100 sq m 3-bed semi-, that'd be approx €460 p.a. in fuel. What do ye think ?Ode To The Motorist
“And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road”
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Er, discuss ? (confused? I think I am !! )
Look at it this way: with a B1 rating achievable for €750 sq m, I think it's good value. In a 100 sq m 3-bed semi-, that'd be approx €460 p.a. in fuel. What do ye think ?
I get what you are saying on it all, and would definitley agree. for the extra cost in building such a house, I dont think the long term savings are worth it.
in similar circumstances, I was asked why I was putting in geothermal and UFH at expense of rads and oil, and it was probably a difference of €10k to do this. but I would value this more essential, and not even in recouping the savings in bills down the road, but just knowing that there is no dependancy on oil when we dont know how that will be in 20 years time.
it is extremley hard to get a1 rated houses in Ireland, and the cost in pushing them up that extra grade point or 2 is massive in respect to the difference in ratings.0 -
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beyondpassive wrote: »Passivhaus is being done now for convention build costs, it just needs to be clerverly designed and detailed. Comparing Passivhaus build with reg minimum is unfair as the components and workmanship are of very different quality. I think 8% is the average extra cost. In Germany only one in ten houses which aspire towards passive, will go for certification. You don't build passive solely because of energy costs. You do so because, it is a good approach to get a good quality building, which will perform as its designed. Air tests and site investigations make sure of this. It is also a building which will last. Conventional builds last 28 years, Passive should last 100 years. We'd pay double for a car marque which guarantees that extra quality of workmanship, why not pay 8% for a house.
I'm not that bothered with Certified passive, for most budgets 20-25kWh of space heat demand is appropriate to the budget and the shape. I've been involved with about 8 new build houses that aimed for passive and am only on my first certified passivhaus, which has just started on site. SAS has no doubt put a huge amount of research and hands on management into the build, but that time invested is for a purpose, it is to fix problems that are ignored in conventional building. This will result in a more comfortable building.
OMG. No, really, OMG.
You should start reading people's post's on here. No one, no one, gets anything close to passive for only 'std' costs. To suggest you would, is, imho, misleading.
And, make up your mind: PH is either same-as-std, or 8% more. Which is it ?
Secondly - we're dealing with Passive........or are we ? SAS most certainly is, and what he's gone for. PH, means you can't go past the magic 15kW marker. If you do, it's not PH. 20-25 2kW is a mere......25-30% off.........so maybe that's how you're meeting the 8% cost barrier ? By being 'only' 25%-30% away from PH in the first place. Sure, we could all do that.......
As for design life of 'conventional' of 28 yrs - Ha! - what garbage. And that's before we get to the fact that PHI was only established in 1996 !!!
And comparing cars to houses is equally rubbish. We pay more for cars (compared to Germany) because of taxation - it has nothing to do with quality, one way or the other.Ode To The Motorist
“And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road”
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