Why do you think the league of Ireland declined in popularity ?

parker kent

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I think the fundamental point is that Irish people don't do regular sport. We do events. Gah cup finals, big internationals, glamour friendlies and all that. We don't as a sporting culture tend to get to games every week, in any sport. That hurts football, even though the LoI is by a mile the best supported league on the island.

The GAA comparison is a little off. It is an example of where Irish people "do regular sport", just that it involves people actually playing regular sport/being involved in the club. For a large amount of Irish people, the local GAA club is where they show their local support. Not having LOI teams in vast areas of the country furthers this issue. The LOI simply does not have the depth of clubs that the GAA has in Ireland.

Yes there is a large element of "eventers" in Ireland. But it is still wrong to say we don't have a regular sporting culture. We do have one, it is just different to England and other soccer-centric countries. Our regular sport typically involves playing sport instead of just watching it. It is not just about going to a "Gah" final. People that are into the GAA are involved with their clubs week-in, week-out. There is no LOI team near me. I have no affiliation to any of them. So my local GAA club is what I associate with.

stovelid

cson wrote: »

You can pull the other one too; LoI is as much if not more a joke shop off the field. Has any LoI club not had solvency issues in the last 10 years or so?

I think the point is that you can only blame bad adminsitration for so much. When the big clubs in the league were getting 20/30/40k, the facilities were no better and these days, people who don't really go to any live games - here or abroad - are hardly going to be swayed by faclities. Also: people don't seem to mind jamming out supposedly shite LOI grounds to see visiting EPL clubs.

Facilities are an important factor but not the overriding one.

cson

stovelid wrote: »

I think the point is that you can only blame bad adminsitration for so much. When the big clubs in the league were getting 20/30/40k, the facilities were no better and these days, people who don't really go to any live games - here or abroad - are hardly going to be swayed by faclities. Also: people don't seem to mind jamming out supposedly shite LOI grounds to see visiting EPL clubs.

Facilities are an important factor but not the overriding one.

I broadly agree with you but you'd have to take into account that going to a game would have been more attractive back in the '60s regardless of the condition of the grounds as there was no Sky or ESPN to stay at home with. The facilities are more of a concern these days but as you say, should not be an overriding concern. Even then having a brand spanking new ground doesn't necessarily mean a better experience as anyone who's tried to have a piss or get a pint in Thomond Park will tell you.

CiaranC

parker kent wrote: »

The GAA comparison is a little off. It is an example of where Irish people "do regular sport"

Not really. Crowds at GAA are even lower than LOI until the playoffs bandwagon gets rolling. Maybe if you count going to the GAA club for a pint because there is nowhere else to go as "regular support". Most of these places are full of EPL fans glued to the Sanyo in the corner all winter anyway.

NukaCola

cson wrote: »

Out of interest what would constitute value for money?

Decent football and facilities.

cson

CiaranC wrote: »

Not really. Crowds at GAA are even lower than LOI until the playoffs bandwagon gets rolling. Maybe if you count going to the GAA club for a pint because there is nowhere else to go as "regular support". Most of these places are full of EPL fans glued to the Sanyo in the corner all winter anyway.

I don't want to turn this into an LoI v GAA debate but I have to pull you up on the above; The League and Provincial GAA Championships are much better supported than any LoI game. Perhpas at Club level it wouldn't be the case but you're talking about small communities here who might not have 3,000 people to support them even if everyone went.

parker kent

CiaranC wrote: »

Not really. Crowds at GAA are even lower than LOI until the playoffs bandwagon gets rolling. Maybe if you count going to the GAA club for a pint because there is nowhere else to go as "regular support". Most of these places are full of EPL fans glued to the Sanyo in the corner all winter anyway.

I clearly said in my post I was talking about people who play sport. The entire point of my post was that there are vast numbers of people who train/play several times a week at their GAA club.

The idea is that we have a different sporting culture, crowds are naturally going to be smaller at local GAA games as they often are between teams with a total population of a few thousand. Again I said all that in my post.

Edit: The poster above also makes a decent point about league and Championship attendances.

cson

BumbleBee123 wrote: »

Decent football and facilities.

Indulge me and put a figure on it.

While you're at it; define decent football and facilities. A comparison will do even so long as its not outlandish - comparing Anfield to Dalymount ain't exactly a fair fight.

OhNoYouDidn't

cson wrote: »

I don't want to turn this into an LoI v GAA debate but I have to pull you up on the above; The League and Provincial GAA Championships are much better supported than any LoI game. Perhpas at Club level it wouldn't be the case but you're talking about small communities here who might not have 3,000 people to support them even if everyone went.

No Gah league is as well supported as the LoI. Not disputing the numbers the Gah can get for cups, but there are badly supported teams too

OhNoYouDidn't

parker kent wrote: »

I clearly said in my post I was talking about people who play sport. The entire point of my post was that there are vast numbers of people who train/play several times a week at their GAA club.

The idea is that we have a different sporting culture, crowds are naturally going to be smaller at local GAA games as they often are between teams with a total population of a few thousand. Again I said all that in my post.

Edit: The poster above also makes a decent point about league and Championship attendances.

there are vast numbers of people who train/play several times a week at their football / rugby / hockey / basketball / tiddlywinks club.

More people play football than hurling and Gaelic combined. No sport has turned the playing numbers, which are very high in an international context in Ireland in all sports, into punters through the gates at their games.

Its most unusual to have more people playing a given sport than attending a given sport and all Irish sports see that phenomenon.

OhNoYouDidn't

cson wrote: »

You can pull the other one too; LoI is as much if not more a joke shop off the field. Has any LoI club not had solvency issues in the last 10 years or so?

Has any top flight English club not had financial issues over the same timeframe?

Every football team in every league in the world has money concerns. I didn't see people turning away from the English game when Leeds or Pompey imploded. Its not a valid argument.

cson

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No Gah league is as well supported as the LoI. Not disputing the numbers the Gah can get for cups, but there are badly supported teams too

The League as in between the counties that starts in a few weeks would be better supported or broadly similar to the the attendances in the LoI.

cson

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Has any top flight English club not had financial issues over the same timeframe?

Every football team in every league in the world has money concerns. I didn't see people turning away from the English game when Leeds or Pompey imploded. Its not a valid argument.

I agree with your second point but your original post intimated that England was more of a joke when it came to administration than Ireland - not true. They're probably as bad as each other truth be told.

parker kent

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No Gah league is as well supported as the LoI. Not disputing the numbers the Gah can get for cups, but there are badly supported teams too

Do you have to keep calling it Gah?

You are not comparing like with like. The GAA is multi-faceted with several competitions of various lengths. You cannot compare the GAA League with the LOI's league as the GAA league is not the primary competition for the year. I would still hazard a guess that attendances wil be broadly similar for the main part andf many league games will have bigger attendance figures than LOI games.

Then the Championship is a shorter competition as most teams will play under 5 matches. That is the main competition and that is why it gets bigger attendances. Then you have clubs where attendances may only be 5,000 if every single person from the area went to the game.

Plus it is not just about supporting a team. It is completely different. People from the area are actually playing for and running the club. It is not a like-for-like comparison.

And all of that is without getting into the actual attendance figures.

mikemac

Last years Premier League

5 from Dublin, 1 from Wicklow, 2 from Louth and then one each for Sligo and Galway

A bit more spread out in next division but even most of the country has no team. Athlone for the entire midlands and Limerick for the midwest

I've about as much affiliation or connection to either of the above teams as any team in the UK. Even if they are the nearest but hardly local teams. So any wonder people look at media coverage and start supporting a team even if they're not from the area

It's not like I'm in Dublin with a club nearby in the area I grew up

OhNoYouDidn't

cson wrote: »

The League as in between the counties that starts in a few weeks would be better supported or broadly similar to the the attendances in the LoI.

We did this before on here. The LoI both on average and in real terms gets more punters in than the Gah intercounty leagues.

For every Dublin Gaelic team there is a Lietrom hurling side.

major bill

regarding the GAA....they do seem to get good crowds well national league level anyway, i was at the O'byrne cup game last year between dublin and meath in navan and remembered been shocked at the attendance very impressive, The GAA is more of a community game than the LOI this is a problem, there are no clubs bar shamrock rovers latching onto the area in which they are based, creating new clubs in rural areas that might not have had a repersentative in the league doesnt work either, kildare county been a good example its all too late IMO.

OhNoYouDidn't

feelingstressed wrote: »

Last years Premier League

5 from Dublin, 1 from Wicklow, 2 from Louth and then one each for Sligo and Galway

A bit more spread out in next division but even most of the country has no team. Athlone for the entire midlands and Limerick for the midwest

I've about as much affiliation or connection to either of the above teams as any team in the UK. So any wonder people look at media coverage and start supporting a team even if they're not from the area

It's not like I'm in Dublin with a club nearby in the area I grew up

Look at the first division....

If you can't get your head around supporting a club from another county, fine, maybe football isn't a game that matches your parochial mindset.

But to then pick a side from another country you have ZERO affinity with claiming that there isn't a local professional side near enough is an incredilious locig.

cson

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

We did this before on here. The LoI both on average and in real terms gets more punters in than the Gah intercounty leagues.

For every Dublin Gaelic team there is a Lietrom hurling side.

Tbf you can't really compare anyway; the GAA is a lot more tribal in that to use a favourite phrase of one of their sponsors "you don't choose your club, you're born into it" - naturally Leitrim has a much lesser population than Dublin.

To be honest its a moot point comparing GAA attendances to LoI ones.

Coillte_Bhoy

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

We did this before on here. The LoI both on average and in real terms gets more punters in than the Gah intercounty leagues.

For every Dublin Gaelic team there is a Lietrom hurling side.

Not this crap again. There was a debate about this a few weeks ago and you were clearly shown figues that dispute your cliam and iirc you didnt come back to address those posts. Nothing new there.

parker kent

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

We did this before on here. The LoI both on average and in real terms gets more punters in than the Gah intercounty leagues.

For every Dublin Gaelic team there is a Lietrom hurling side.

So the LOI gets a higher attendance than a virtual pre-season tournament? Wow. As I have said numerous times, you are not comparing like-with-like. And I still doubt your claims.

You are also ignoring vast areas of the GAA.

parker kent

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Look at the first division....

If you can't get your head around supporting a club from another county, fine, maybe football isn't a game that matches your parochial mindset.

But to then pick a side from another country you have ZERO affinity with claiming that there isn't a local professional side near enough is an incredilious locig.

Wait...so it is perfectly valid to support a team from an area you have no connection with? Your use of the word parochial is very funny.

Where is the "locig" in that post given everything else you claim?

mikemac

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

If you can't get your head around supporting a club from another county, fine, maybe football isn't a game that matches your parochial mindset.

But to then pick a side from another country you have ZERO affinity with claiming that there isn't a local professional side near enough is an incredilious locig.

I posted most of the country didn't have a team, I didn't post most counties so what's with the parochial mindset comment.

If you grew up in Ireland and your nearest LOI club was 60km away well excuse me for not supporting my "local" team, that was my point, I don't care what county they are in. There are many counties in the Midlands and Midwest, don't think you even read it

OhNoYouDidn't

parker kent wrote: »

So the LOI gets a higher attendance than a virtual pre-season tournament? Wow. As I have said numerous times, you are not comparing like-with-like. And I still doubt your claims.

You are also ignoring vast areas of the GAA.

My point is that every sport in Ireland gets huge crowds a half dozen times a year. In football or rugby its internationals. In the Gah, its the latter stages of the cups.

Go down a level, the situation is different. Week in, week out, things are sparse, and the LoI is the best of a bad lot. We could argue the provincial rugby sides do get them in for their international competitions, depends how you look at it.

parker kent

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

My point is that every sport in Ireland gets huge crowds a half dozen times a year. In football or rugby its internationals. In the Gah, its the latter stages of the cups.

Go down a level, the situation is different. Week in, week out, things are sparse, and the LoI is the best of a bad lot. We could argue the provincial rugby sides do get them in for their international competitions, depends how you look at it.

And my point which you are ignoring, is that the GAA is not just something to passively attend. It is different and has a different and deeper role in Irish society.

Edit: I also doubt your knowledge of what GAA clubs around Ireland are actually like week-in, week-out.

OhNoYouDidn't

feelingstressed wrote: »

I posted most of the country didn't have a team, I didn't post most counties so what's with the parochial mindset comment.

If you grew up in Ireland and your nearest LOI club was 60km away well excuse me for not supporting my "local" team, that was my point, I don't care what county they are in. There are many counties in the Midlands and Midwest, don't think you even read it

So you picked as side 600km away...

OhNoYouDidn't

parker kent wrote: »

And my point which you are ignoring, is that the GAA is not just something to passively attend. It is different and has a different and deeper role in Irish society.

I disagree, and I find that sort of diddly eye crap to be very patronising to the people who volunteer in other sports.

major bill

To go down a differant route i often wonder what the state of football would be like if we never have had the split of north and south if teams like Linfield,Glentoran,coleraine etc were playing Bohs,Rovers year in year out what would it have been like........maybe the drums and belfast celtic would still be around

OhNoYouDidn't

parker kent wrote: »

Wait...so it is perfectly valid to support a team from an area you have no connection with? Your use of the word parochial is very funny.

Where is the "locig" in that post given everything else you claim?

I'm talking about someone from Clare refusing to support Limerick FC because of a line drawn on a map by a British civil servant.

You cannot tell me he has more of a connection with Liverpool than Limerick.

Its a cop out of an answer.

parker kent

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I disagree, and I find that sort of diddly eye crap to be very patronising to the people who volunteer in other sports.

It is not diddly eye crap, I am talking about facts about the participation levels in the GAA compared to soccer. It is different. It is not different in a special way, it is just different. When I say it is deeper, it is deeper because there are a greater depth of GAA clubs. It is about as patronising as your Gah references.

For the record, I'm involved in GAA, soccer and tennis. So I am hardly going to patronise myself.

flas

parker kent wrote: »

The GAA comparison is a little off. It is an example of where Irish people "do regular sport", just that it involves people actually playing regular sport/being involved in the club. For a large amount of Irish people, the local GAA club is where they show their local support. Not having LOI teams in vast areas of the country furthers this issue. The LOI simply does not have the depth of clubs that the GAA has in Ireland.

Yes there is a large element of "eventers" in Ireland. But it is still wrong to say we don't have a regular sporting culture. We do have one, it is just different to England and other soccer-centric countries. Our regular sport typically involves playing sport instead of just watching it. It is not just about going to a "Gah" final. People that are into the GAA are involved with their clubs week-in, week-out. There is no LOI team near me. I have no affiliation to any of them. So my local GAA club is what I associate with.

not trying to pick on your post, just wondering out of a matter of interest where you are as i can only think of 4 counties in the whole country that have no loi team?

OhNoYouDidn't

parker kent wrote: »

It is not diddly eye crap, I am talking about facts about the participation levels in the GAA compared to soccer. It is different. It is not different in a special way, it is just different. When I say it is deeper, it is deeper because there are a greater depth of GAA clubs. It is about as patronising as your Gah references.

For the record, I'm involved in GAA, soccer and tennis. So I am hardly going to patronise myself.

Ok, you weren't trying to patronise, but what does the bolded mean?

flas

feelingstressed wrote: »

Last years Premier League

5 from Dublin, 1 from Wicklow, 2 from Louth and then one each for Sligo and Galway

A bit more spread out in next division but even most of the country has no team. Athlone for the entire midlands and Limerick for the midwest

I've about as much affiliation or connection to either of the above teams as any team in the UK. Even if they are the nearest but hardly local teams. So any wonder people look at media coverage and start supporting a team even if they're not from the area

It's not like I'm in Dublin with a club nearby in the area I grew up

longford town fc.

Coillte_Bhoy

flas wrote: »

not trying to pick on your post, just wondering out of a matter of interest where you are as i can only think of 4 counties in the whole country that have no loi team?

I'd do a recount there

parker kent

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I'm talking about someone from Clare refusing to support Limerick FC because of a line drawn on a map by a British civil servant.

You cannot tell me he has more of a connection with Liverpool than Limerick.

Its a cop out of an answer.

Look all I am saying is that many people in Ireland get their fix of local sport from other areas, be that GAA, swimming, athletics etc. You are right, he has no more of a connection with either Limerick than Liverpool. He has no connection with either.

Maybe he is involved with some other sport at a local level and just enjoys watching an English team. Nobody is doubting that people who live in an area with a LOI team and go to games every week have a deeper bond than somebody watching an English team on TV. But it is not that they are incapable of having a bond with a team. I have my own deep bond with my club and county. I still have a bond with United and would go to every game were it possible. But they will never replace the GAA teams from where I am from. If there were a soccer team near me, they would probably have that same bond.

Spud83

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

My point is that every sport in Ireland gets huge crowds a half dozen times a year. In football or rugby its internationals. In the Gah, its the latter stages of the cups.

Go down a level, the situation is different. Week in, week out, things are sparse, and the LoI is the best of a bad lot. We could argue the provincial rugby sides do get them in for their international competitions, depends how you look at it.

Their is no argument about provincial rugby sides. They get crowds week in and week out for their league matches that dwarf that of any LOI club. Just accept that and move on as putting country boundaries on it is just ridiculous.

parker kent

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Ok, you weren't trying to patronise, but what does the bolded mean?

There are more teams, it has a greater depth of clubs. It has a deeper penetration level because of that depth.

mikemac

flas wrote: »

longford town fc.

I didn't forget them, just didn't realy consider Longford as the midlands for some reason

Happy to be corrected

parker kent

This has also descended into a big willy contest between LOI fans and others. The point should be clear that there are not teams in the LOI in every area of Ireland. That will influence the popularity of the league. The same way that seeing the people who play for the Irish soccer team playing in England will also influence the popularity of their leagues. It is obviously more complex than those two points, but they are pretty important points.

Zebra3

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Part of it is, of course, the LoI failing to react to televised foreign football until it was too late. But even back then when the big clubs were getting 40,000 as a matter of routine, people still followed foreign ball, especially English and Scottish.

No LoI club ever got 40,000 regularly.

Coillte_Bhoy

Zebra3 wrote: »

No LoI club ever got 40,000 regularly.

ONYD isn't great when it comes to crowd figures. he has a very vivid imagination in this regard;)

parker kent

Zebra3 wrote: »

No LoI club ever got 40,000 regularly.

Shamrock Rovers would have big crowds in the 60s. Not sure on the exact figures though.

dan1895

Why do you need a LOI club in your area to support the local football team? What about LSL teams, MSL teams, A Championship teams?

major bill

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

I'd do a recount there

Ulster- Donegal- finn Harps
Monaghan- Monaghan united
Cavan- none

connacht- sligo- sligo rovers
Galway- galway united,salthill devon,mervue
Leitrim- none
Roscommon- athlone town
mayo-castlebar celtic

Munster- Limerick- limerick fc
Cork- cork city foras, cobh ramblers
Kerry- tralee dynamos
Waterford- waterford united
Clare- no team
Tipperary- no team

leinster- dublin- 6 teams
louth- dundalk,drogheda
wicklow- bray wanderers
wexford- wexford youths
kilkenny- did have kilkenny city but no more
kildare- did have a team but no more
laois- no team
offaly-tullamore town
carlow-carlow fc
longford- longford town
westmeath- athlone town
meath- no team

parker kent

parker kent wrote: »

Shamrock Rovers would have big crowds in the 60s. Not sure on the exact figures though.

This is probably a more realistic figure on average LOI attendances in its heyday.

When you think that 20,000+ regularly attended League of Ireland matches back in the league's heyday, it makes even more startling reading

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/features/elfshane4.html

From doing a few minutes research, there were a few 40,000+ attendances but they were for FAI Cup Finals.

bookie basher

look the bottom line is the standard is very poor, anyone who thinks differently is codding themselves, i have been to cork city games and all i saw was heavy 1st touches, no dribbling & too much hoofing, why anyone would spend money following failed players who couldnt make it in england is beyond me

major bill

bookie basher wrote: »

look the bottom line is the standard is very poor, anyone who thinks differently is codding themselves, i have been to cork city games and all i saw was heavy 1st touches, no dribbling & too much hoofing, why anyone would spend money following failed players who couldnt make it in england is beyond me

as someone said already people mistake quality with ****e.... players have come home done well and moved back to england..i could be wrong but at the moment there are 5 players playing regurlary in the premiership that have come from the LOI thats not bad for a suposedly ''sh1te'' league.

CiaranC

bookie basher wrote: »

look the bottom line is the standard is very poor, anyone who thinks differently is codding themselves, i have been to cork city games and all i saw was heavy 1st touches, no dribbling & too much hoofing, why anyone would spend money following failed players who couldnt make it in england is beyond me

Theres more to following a football team than this supposed "standard" of football. If everyone used "standard" as a barometer of who they support, then there would only be Barcelona fans and no others. Why does Ireland get such big crowds in Lansdowne, the standard is hardly world class, is it?

major bill

CiaranC wrote: »

Theres more to following a football team than this supposed "standard" of football. If everyone used "standard" as a barometer of who they support, then there would only be Barcelona fans and no others. Why does Ireland get such big crowds in Lansdowne, the standard is hardly world class, is it?

i went to see burton albion play against histon town a couple of years ago not the most glamourous of teams they didnt play good football but still got a great crowd, its a irish thing...parkerkent said the GAA has a deeper meaning for irish people this is true in england theres a deeper meaning towards there football, ireland doesnt have this towards football.

MRPRO03

They are countless reasons why the league has lost appeal over the years. There is not 1 reason but some do overshadow others. I feel the main cause is all types TV/Media Coverage, when Match of the Day was first seen in Ireland in the 60s, that started the ball rolling imo.

I think that people just watched it and still went to games, it was when the Media, started putting news in papers and then mentioning it on news reports slowly got the football public to have more interest in it as all sides of media were covering it and therefore it was 'OK' to start following it. Then shops start importing kits and again, giving the public the opportunity and reasons to follow this. And to now, where it is all over the place in Ireland, where ever one looks, they can see some reference to English football. The problem is that it is accepted in society now, and of course it is reversible and it is down the reasons why it lost its appeal.

For it to get some acceptance in modern society, newspapers have to stop all connections with English football and focus solely on Irish Football, you look at sport pages in newspapers at the moment, everything is Irish, except the football, it is bizarre in that respect. Sport Bulletins on the news have to stop mentioning it and again, mentioning Irish Football, whatever the news. The public need the media to help them, the media need to make the fans think that is acceptable to follow Irish teams and not to be embarrassed by it. Similarly, Sport related shops have to stop selling EPL Kits and put in LOI Kits, but that is very unlikely, I think the other points need to resolved before that happen.

Also, Sky Sports needs to addressed aswell, Sky pay £1b for the rights to EPL for the British audience and yet it the Irish subscribers seem to be allowed to watch it ?, ESPN is the same. The Irish rights are with Setanta Sports, so why are Sky allowing Irish Subscribers to watch Sport that is only for the British viewers ?

Some may say, there is no LOI in my area and fair enough, but even if you no have no team, you can still follow the league by watching LOI games on TV and maybe occasionally going to a match if you are in the area for a few days or so. For those who have, these issues can help the LOI massively. Again, some say the LOI needs better stadiums, players etc. But that needs fans paying money to their clubs for these issues to be improved, you need fans for progression, you cant progress without fans, that argument is deeply flawed.