Laws on Canoeing/Kayaking rivers?

shaft666

Hi All

I was asked today what is the legality of canoeing/kayaking on rivers. The lad asking the question wants to know can he just get in and work away or does he need specific permissions from land owners or fishing rights owners?

Any advice would be much appreciated

Thanks

Paul

yomchi

shaft666 wrote: »

Hi All

I was asked today what is the legality of canoeing/kayaking on rivers. The lad asking the question wants to know can he just get in and work away or does he need specific permissions from land owners or fishing rights owners?

Any advice would be much appreciated

Thanks

Paul

Some of the more experienced lads here will steer you right but from my understanding it depends on where you want to kayak. There are certain rivers where the 'put in' and the 'get off' maybe within private land so therefore permission should be sought. In terms of the law it is illegal to canoe/kayak without the relevant safety equipment like buoyancy aid etc.
Your mate should also understand the consequences of paddling alone.

ted1

depends on location.

shaft666

OK, got some more specific info today, might help clarify the legal position.
The lads family own farmland with a long stretch of the Cork Blackwater running through it, They do not own the fishing rights on the river, these have been owned by a local man for many years until he sold them on a year or so ago. The family had canoed on the river for years (launching and landing on their own land) without any problems until the new owner came along, he has appointed a river keeper who appeared one day last summer while they were canoeing and verbally abused them, ranting and swearing at them (daughter and granchildren of land owner) and demanding they left the river and never set foot in it again. They tried explaining their position as land owners but he wouldn't listen and just carried on threatening them, the kids were terrified and very upset so they left and haven't gone back since.
Putting aside the river keepers bad way of handling the situation, can anyone answer Who's legally in the right?

Thanks

Paul

ted1

they may have right of way, was the keeper trespassing on their land. they weren't fishing so does the keeper have anything ot do with it?

KenHy

Fishing rights give you the right to fish. I don't see how it allows someone to stop someone else paddling. I'd tell him where to go if he trys to stop you paddling again. The only issue would be trespassing when getting on or off the issue which is not an problem here.

I'm no legal expert though, so I could well be wrong.

Jumpy

My friend kayaks rivers as well, apparently he gets abuse from people fishing all the time.

He usually paddles over and asks for their fishing licence. They generally shut up.

irishlostboy

as far as i am aware, the law is sorta like this. if the waterway is classed as navigable, it falls under control of inland waterways. whitewater is not classed as navigable.
the land owner owns the banks and the riverbed. thus in theory they will have final legal say unless explicitly stated to the contrary in legal contract. cant immagine any fishing rights stuff interfering with this.
usually when dealing with river and access rights, the paddler has no rights under law. best bet is to try be nice and as accomodating as possible to land owners/ fishermen etc. having said all this, what is law, and what lands in front of a judge are two different things. if a land owner/ fishing outfit etc gets too bull-headed about kayaking they really have feck all recourse. tresspass is a legal nightmare best dealt with by being polite, but low profile.
i think there is some info on water access on the ICU website.

thetonynator

AFAIK, the banks and fishing rights owners do not own the river, i.e. they can stop you getting in or out, stop you fishing, but they cant stop you being on the water. Not 100% sure though . .

OldmanMondeo

I have been paddling nearly 30 years and fishermen have always been a pain in the ass for kayakers. Big brave men on the bank who crap themselves when you get out to discuss the issue. I, as well as paddlers through the years, have been abused verbally and had rocks throw at us. Personally I have no respect for fishermen and would have no problem in squaring up to them.

Back on topic, while a landowner can own the river bank and the river bed, they don't own the water that flows through / over it. Should you come across fishermen, paddle near the far bank, if possible and go past as quickley and quite as possible. Should they start abusing you, ignore and paddle on. Enjoy your sport and leave those assholes to theirs.

esdublin

Does anyone know any decent spots around the Dublin mountains for paddling ?

Truley

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

I have been paddling nearly 30 years and fishermen have always been a pain in the ass for kayakers. Big brave men on the bank who crap themselves when you get out to discuss the issue. I, as well as paddlers through the years, have been abused verbally and had rocks throw at us. Personally I have no respect for fishermen and would have no problem in squaring up to them.

Back on topic, while a landowner can own the river bank and the river bed, they don't own the water that flows through / over it. Should you come across fishermen, paddle near the far bank, if possible and go past as quickley and quite as possible. Should they start abusing you, ignore and paddle on. Enjoy your sport and leave those assholes to theirs.

In my experience it's varied from river to river. On two of our local fishing rivers we've squared it away with the fishermen and have an agreement that they can have the river for fishing season and we will paddle outside it. Has worked wonderfully so far. Another river we had the same experience as yourself and the OP, verbal abuse and physical intimidation. Any attempts to reason with them failed. So we just get on with it and paddle outside of fishing season. We still have to deal with abuse on a regular basis unfortunately.

I think fishermen are very protective of their local spot because they pay insane prices for the permits.

scuby

i would have thought the land owners would be allowed to enter/leave the river as going/coming from their own land. The fishing rights only apply for the use of the river to fish ?

Also, the person holding the fishing right, presumably should be asking the land owner to cross his lands to go to the river ?


http://www.canoe.ie/Portals/32/1Docs4Dload/Policy%20Documents/Land%20and%20River%20Ownership.pdf

also try posting on http://www.irishfreestyle.com/ and they might have more info

SafeSurfer

The law in Ireland stems from and is similar to the law in England and Wales. In England and Wales access to waterways has been specifically excluded from the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000.

England and Wales have a much worse access laws for canoeists. Essentially you need the permission of the person who owns the river to use it. The owner of the river is usually the landowner of the adjoining land. There are rivers that have a public right of way / navigation but these total about 2% of the rivers that a canoe could be used on.

http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?29-Rights-of-Access-for-Open-Canoeing

Water users should take special care on salmonoid rivers where habitat destruction, (spawning redds) can be caused by carelessness. A bit of common sense and mutual respect goes a long way.

Possedion

I paddle regularly on the boyne and the fishermen there dont seem to mind.
just be a bit observant passing... not a time to practice or show any cool free style moves!

Zzippy

As an angler I don't mind too much when kayakers pass along, I think they're entitled to enjoy the river as well. A little bit of respect goes a long way - no splashing or messing around, a nod and a smile, and don't paddle too close to the bank where someone is fishing (over their line) and IMO there should be no problem. I'd be seriously p1ssed off if a bunch of lads came along and started doing freestyle tricks and messing about where I was trying to fish though...

john lanigan

hi,has anyone kayaked the flesk river in kerry from white bridge to flesk bridge,im a local just starting out in new club,im a complete beginner hsaving done the Laune and bit of lake and sea,im wondering if its suitble for a club run out novices with instructers,any opinions appreciated

nookie

This post has been deleted.

MadYaker

The flesk is one of the most popular runs in Ireland. But its not for beginners.

john lanigan

thanks,I WS REFERRING TO A 3KM SECTION NEAR KILLARNEY TOWN,,ITS TANKING UT DOWN THERE TODAY,SO MABE A SUMMER RUN TO GET FAMILIAR WITH IT. SOMEBODY LOCALN[ MUST HAVE DONE IT,ta again

Zuppy

john lanigan wrote: »

hi,has anyone kayaked the flesk river in kerry from white bridge to flesk bridge,im a local just starting out in new club,im a complete beginner hsaving done the Laune and bit of lake and sea,im wondering if its suitble for a club run out novices with instructers,any opinions appreciated

There is a few club who paddle that regularly. Phoenix in Cork city being one. The local knowledge I have is a few years old so any of the river running sites with a guide might help. Phoenix have a forum of their own so post there.

Zuppy

Also the law on paddling versus fishing isn't all that clear to me (not legal brief) but if there is fishing rights on the river then respect the lads who pay a lot to fish and move on by without disturbing them. I am not sure if we disturb fish as a few regularly hit my kayak when paddling so I don't scare them away at least. (no fish can't see my face).

If you own the river bank then you have your access sorted. If you own both banks you technically have rights to something (not sure). There are certain rivers you cannot paddle at certain times of the year. Something to do with fish spawning and shallow river beds (no fun on shallow rivers so I expect we don't use them much anyway).

prettygurrly

as an environmental scientist we have a similar problem but afaik in Ireland the water is anyone's (different to the UK) so technically I can wade the length of a river/stream if I wish as long as I don't step onto a bank.

I'm also confused as to how the river keeper appointed by your man with the fishing rights was able to verbally abuse you? Was he on the other side of the river? Or was he on your bank?

Secondly, what on earth does a river keeper do? Stop people fishing?...nothing to do with canoeing.

Zuppy

prettygurrly wrote: »

as an environmental scientist we have a similar problem but afaik in Ireland the water is anyone's (different to the UK) so technically I can wade the length of a river/stream if I wish as long as I don't step onto a bank.

I'm also confused as to how the river keeper appointed by your man with the fishing rights was able to verbally abuse you? Was he on the other side of the river? Or was he on your bank?

Secondly, what on earth does a river keeper do? Stop people fishing?...nothing to do with canoeing.

Good point, the issue in question was from 2011 but it is still an issue up and down the country today. As I understood it the river keeper was appointed by the owner of the river fishing rights. So therefore uninteresting to paddlers.

Stavros Murphy

esdublin wrote: »

Does anyone know any decent spots around the Dublin mountains for paddling ?

Da used to bring us to the Poulaphouca reservoir, we'd roll up our trousers and splash about in the shallows. Lovely paddling. Much nicer than the white-water rapids through avoca. I'd say they'd be deadly for kayaking though.