Aerlingus Cabin Crew want the best of both worlds

kevinmcc

kate74 wrote: »

I didn't say they work 60 hours every 7 days but that's what they can frequently work so saying they do just 33 hours a week is complete rubbish.

So you work for EI or how do you know?

AfterDusk

kate74 wrote: »

I didn't say they work 60 hours every 7 days but that's what they can frequently work so saying they do just 33 hours a week is complete rubbish.

It's still an average of around 33 hrs though. So yeah, they work 60 hour weeks, but then other weeks they work feck all

Skadoosh

kate74 wrote: »

I didn't say they work 60 hours every 7 days but that's what they can frequently work so saying they do just 33 hours a week is complete rubbish.

Kate74, you're remarkably well-informed on cabin crew rostering procedures for someone who just "flies to the UK a lot for work".

It would be helpful if "vested interests" could declare themselves at the outset. I've already made it clear where I'm coming from.

macbrada

neil2304 wrote: »

So then, by your calculations they work 28 weeks? :rolleyes:

Scale as of 2005 has been increased in line with national pay deal(only scales i have on computer at moment),also apx €5,000 in comission on bar/duty free sales and check in credits also tax free allowance of up to €400 per month depending on routes.

All in €


1st LSI 25 years service.
2nd LSI 30 years service.
3rd LSI 33 years service.
4th LSI 35 years service.
Scales at 1st January 2005
Cabin Crew Member

20,093.11 - 21,141.92 - 22,190.72 - 23,239.54 - 24,288.38 - 25,337.20 - 26,386.01 - 27,434.82 - 28,483.63 - 29,532.44 - 30,581.26 - 31,630.10 - 32,678.92 - 33,727.71 - 34,776.541 - 35,549.342 - 36,322.153 - 37,094.964 - 38,640.60 (LSI max)
Cabin Crew Senior

24,961.81 - 26,049.27 - 27,136.74 - 28,224.18 - 29,311.66 - 30,399.11 - 31,486.56 - 32,574.02 - 33,661.46 - 34,748.91 - 35,836.38 - 36,923.85 - 38,011.31 - 39,098.75 - 40,186.211 - 40,959.032 - 41,731.843 - 42,504.654 - 44,050.28 (LSI max)
Cabin Crew Supervisor

27,821.21 - 28,925.25 - 30,029.25 - 31,133.27 - 32,237.27 - 33,341.31 - 34,445.31 - 35,549.34 - 36,653.37 - 37,757.36 - 38,861.41 - 39,965.40 - 41,069.43 - 42,173.42 - 43,277.461 - 44,050.282 - 44,823.093 - 45,595.884 - 47,141.52 (LSI max)
Cabin Crew Cabin Manager

29,366.84 - 30,470.88 - 31,574.88 - 32,678.92 - 33,782.89 - 34,886.93 - 35,990.93 - 37,094.96 - 38,199.00 - 39,303.00 - 40,407.04 - 41,511.03 - 42,615.07 - 43,719.06 - 44,823.091 - 45,595.882 - 46,368.713 - 47,141.524 - 48,687.13 (LSI max)



Scales back in 2005.....add approx 15% since for partnership deal..not bad!

chalkitdown

pocketvenus wrote: »

The reason it has had to happen for a few years in Aer Lingus shows you how much wastage there was in the company. As I said like other Gov agencies wages were too high to begin with way above rest of the industry, outdated practices etc. Same tale in BA.

This kind on hyperbole of EI CC being cut year after year till they are working for nothing is just ott

If I have to work a bit longer next year so be it I much prefer to be in employment.

I don't think the changes being imposed on cabin crew amount to just a bit longer. It appears to me to be a more fundamental change than that.

kevinmcc

kate74 wrote: »

Well done for dividing that by 52 weeks but I'm sure the cabin crew get some holidays as well which would increase those hours. The crew can be scheduled 60 hours in 7 day period

I guess they'd have to work 60 hours some weeks if they have 5 weeks off eh!

Skadoosh

chalkitdown wrote: »

I don't think the changes being imposed on cabin crew amount to just a bit longer. It appears to me to be a more fundamental change than that.

50 hours over the course of a year? An hour a week (not taking annual leave into account)? In line with industry practices elsewhere?

kate74

Skadoosh wrote: »

Kate74, you're remarkably well-informed on cabin crew rostering procedures for someone who just "flies to the UK a lot for work".

It would be helpful if "vested interests" could declare themselves at the outset. I've already made it clear where I'm coming from.

All this information is available online or in the papers, I can read

macbrada

chalkitdown wrote: »

I'd like to respond, but I haven't a bleedin' clue what you are trying to say.

Let those with expertise make the decisions related to that expertise...

Air stewards should make decisions specifically related to their training.
Those with business management expertise should make the decisions related to managing a business........no disrespect to the stewarding profession, but who would you ask to look after your money? An accountant, a doctor, a carpenter or an air steward?

chalkitdown

macbrada wrote: »

Let those with expertise make the decisions related to that expertise...

Air stewards should make decisions specifically related to their training.
Those with business management expertise should make the decisions related to managing a business........no disrespect to the stewarding profession, but who would you ask to look after your money? An accountant, a doctor, a carpenter or an air steward?

Not Herr Mueller anyway, he's already proved he's not up to that particular job.

chalkitdown

Wow, I've just noticed that most of the posters that are supporting management in this are new to boards....Hmmm....

mad m

kevinmcc wrote: »

Wow I've just realised that Aer Lingus Cabin Crew get around 35 days annual leave :eek:

Obviously that includes the bank holidays.

not yet

SIX PACK wrote: »

Does anyone know if the Pilots are on Strike ? Also how come we never hear of Ryanair staff going on Strike

What fcuking planet are you on.................The reason ryanair never go on strike is because they are not in a union, Aer lingus staff are some of the best in the world and are being screwed over by some jumped up little german cnut. Now if you think thats a good thing then your better off flying ryanair.

AfterDusk

not yet wrote: »

What fcuking planet are you on.................The reason ryanair never go on strike is because they are not in a union, Aer lingus staff are some of the best in the world and are being screwed over by some jumped up little german cnut. Now if you think thats a good thing then your better off flying ryanair.

:pac: You think they're being screwed over?! :pac:

Honestly, EI crew have it a lot easier than most people seem to believe. I would love to see them attempt a day in Ryanair uniform

Taceom

not yet wrote: »

What fcuking planet are you on.................The reason ryanair never go on strike is because they are not in a union, Aer lingus staff are some of the best in the world and are being screwed over by some jumped up little german cnut. Now if you think thats a good thing then your better off flying ryanair.

OH PLEASE ...........best in the world, and being screwed over.......give us a break!

MazG

It's still an average of around 33 hrs though. So yeah, they work 60 hour weeks, but then other weeks they work feck all

I think you need to check your sums there, Neil.

1716 Duty Hrs per year works out at an average of 39 hrs per week as follows:

52 weeks in the year
less 4 weeks annual leave
less (almost) the equivalent of 2 weeks in public holidays = 44 working weeks

1716/44 = 39

So an average working week then.

While I can appreciate that customers are frustrated when industrial action disrupts their travel plans (I know I would be hopping mad if my flights were cancelled), I do sympatise with the cabin crew to a certain extent.

I appreciate that many people here supporting EI management have made sacrifices in their salaries and their work/life balance to ensure that their company stays going and to secure their jobs, but I know that it would make a hell of a lot of difference to me how this might be carried out. So if my boss called me into his office and said 'MazG, we appreciate all the work that you've done over the last x years, but we are really struggling to compete at the moment. We're very sorry, but we need to reduce your lunch-break from 1hr to half an hour and we need you to work every second Saturday' or something like that, then I would give it serious consideration, and maybe accept the new deal. BUT, if my boss just announced 'breaks are hereby reduced to half an hour, all staff are expected to work every second Saturday' and then suspended staff who took a 35 minute break, then I would not be a happy MazG.

What I'm trying to say is, it's great that some of you have made such sacrifices. But I don't think it gives you the right to expect the EI cabin crew to accept changes to their Terms and Conditions that were not agreed to, and that are being communicated and enforced in this way.

AfterDusk

MazG wrote: »

I think you need to check your sums there, Neil.

I didn't do the sums, another poster did. I just assumed they were correct

kevinmcc

mad m wrote: »

Obviously that includes the bank holidays.

Actually no, Annual Leave is seperate from Public Holidays of which there are nine. And, as far as I'm aware CC at EI get more days off the longer they're there.

MazG

neil2304 wrote: »

I didn't do the sums, another poster did. I just assumed they were correct

Apologies.

kevinmcc

MazG wrote: »

I think you need to check your sums there, Neil.

1716 Duty Hrs per year works out at an average of 39 hrs per week as follows:

52 weeks in the year
less 4 weeks annual leave
less (almost) the equivalent of 2 weeks in public holidays = 44 working weeks

1716/44 = 39

So an average working week then.

So MazG how do you know the poster Cabincrew didn't already take into account the annual leave and public holidays? Furthermore how do they only work 44 weeks?

macbrada

not yet wrote: »

What fcuking planet are you on.................The reason ryanair never go on strike is because they are not in a union, Aer lingus staff are some of the best in the world and are being screwed over by some jumped up little german cnut. Now if you think thats a good thing then your better off flying ryanair.

Oh dear..cursing racism and telling people to fly with another airline.. I think you should manage AL... You would ensure the highest wages are maintained for the 1-2 weeks the company would survive...

MazG

kevinmcc wrote: »

So MazG how do you know the poster Cabincrew didn't already take into account the annual leave and public holidays?

Well Cabincrew used the term 'Duty Hours', which I took to mean actual hours at work, as opposed to hours paid.

kevinmcc

MazG wrote: »

Well Cabincrew used the term 'Duty Hours', which I took to mean actual hours at work, as opposed to hours paid.

OK but you said 44 working weeks?

So even if they did get 28 days annual leave and their 9 public holidays that is 5 weeks 2 days? Doesn't add up to 52?

Skadoosh

chalkitdown wrote: »

Not Herr Mueller anyway, he's already proved he's not up to that particular job.

Ah yes, Sabena.

Let's see. Founded in the 1920s, one of the original big airlines, boomed in the 40s and 50s. Had trouble in the 70s due to fuel costs and labour problems. Required numerous bailouts and was regarded as a "bottomless pit". Restructuring attempt in the 80s which helped a bit but it was too small a carrier and its costs were too high to survive without a partner.

Signed a deal with Swissair after a lot of foostering around trying to find another partner. Swissair signed up to get Sabena's hub.

Aggressive expansion policy, made a profit for the first time in over a decade, but its finances were actually quite weak behind the scenes thanks to an enormous deal they'd entered with Airbus, which was twice the stock-market value of Swissair, it's majority partner. Enter Mueller, who within a month declared the danger the airline was in, and proposed a "Blue Sky" restructuring policy ("Green Fields", not much imagination evidently).

Unions protested, staged stoppages and blocked planes. Swissair got cheesed off, abandoned its aggressive policy and balked on investing promised funding. Then came 9/11.

Any of this sound similar to what's going on in EI?

Mueller is not regarded as being to blame, the Airbus deal signed by the previous CEO is regarded as corporate malfeasance. What Mueller did show, though, was the mettle to take on the unions, even though it meant he had to have protection.

And you think he's going to back down over whether or not CC eat your lunch on the plane or on the ground? :rolleyes:

MazG

kevinmcc wrote: »

So MazG how do you know the poster Cabincrew didn't already take into account the annual leave and public holidays? Furthermore how do they only work 44 weeks?

Bah! Mental arithmatic fail!

Yes, 52 - 6 is of course 46 weeks. So an average of 37.3 hrs per week then. Still a normal working week for a lot of people, I would have thought

hardCopy

chalkitdown wrote: »

Wow, I've just noticed that most of the posters that are supporting management in this are new to boards....Hmmm....

I'm not sure what that's supposed to imply but I'm pretty sure you're mistaken.

Two of the most active posters on the thread registered in 2011 and they don't support management.

Anyway, emotive issues often draw lurkers out of the shadows.

Skadoosh

hardCopy wrote: »

I'm not sure what that's supposed to imply but I'm pretty sure you're mistaken.

Two of the most active posters on the thread registered in 2011 and they don't support management.

Anyway, emotive issues often draw lurkers out of the shadows.

I've already said that I'm a poster under another name but I'm posting under this name here because I don't want my husband to be identified.

Cabincrew who's obviously extremely anti-management is also a new poster. Do we cancel each other out?

kevinmcc

MazG wrote: »

Bah! Mental arithmatic fail!

Yes, 52 - 6 is of course 46 weeks. So an average of 37.3 hrs per week then. Still a normal working week for a lot of people, I would have thought

Actually to be correct 46.85 which brings it down to 36.6 hours per week

chalkitdown

Skadoosh wrote: »

Ah yes, Sabena.

Let's see. Founded in the 1920s, one of the original big airlines, boomed in the 40s and 50s. Had trouble in the 70s due to fuel costs and labour problems. Required numerous bailouts and was regarded as a "bottomless pit". Restructuring attempt in the 80s which helped a bit but it was too small a carrier and its costs were too high to survive without a partner.

Signed a deal with Swissair after a lot of foostering around trying to find another partner. Swissair signed up to get Sabena's hub.

Aggressive expansion policy, made a profit for the first time in over a decade, but its finances were actually quite weak behind the scenes thanks to an enormous deal they'd entered with Airbus, which was twice the stock-market value of Swissair, it's majority partner. Enter Mueller, who within a month declared the danger the airline was in, and proposed a "Blue Sky" restructuring policy ("Green Fields", not much imagination evidently).

Unions protested, staged stoppages and blocked planes. Swissair got cheesed off, abandoned its aggressive policy and balked on investing promised funding. Then came 9/11.

Any of this sound similar to what's going on in EI?

Mueller is not regarded as being to blame, the Airbus deal signed by the previous CEO is regarded as corporate malfeasance. What Mueller did show, though, was the mettle to take on the unions, even though it meant he had to have protection.

And you think he's going to back down over whether or not CC eat your lunch on the plane or on the ground? :rolleyes:

Thank you, informative post. I think a stint in industrial relations for Herr Mueller wouldn't go amiss though.

MazG

kevinmcc wrote: »

Actually to be correct 46.85 which brings it down to 36.6 hours per week

You'll have to bring me through your calculations there Kev, I've already proven tonight that I'm not up to the task...

kevinmcc

MazG wrote: »

You'll have to bring me through your calculations there Kev, I've already proven tonight that I'm not up to the task...

OK well take your 28 days plus 9 public = 37.

365-37 = 328
1716/328 = 5.23 X 7 = 36.62 hours per week

Then again that is assuming Aer Lingus gives the bare minimum of annual leave.

MazG

kevinmcc wrote: »

OK well take your 28 days plus 9 public = 37.

365-37 = 328
1716/328 = 5.23 X 7 = 36.62 hours per week

Then again that is assuming Aer Lingus gives the bare minimum of annual leave.

Ah yes, I see what you mean. I work a weekly payroll so that's why I tend to think in weeks.

I'd say:

52 weeks - 4 weeks annual leave - 1.8 weeks public holidays = 46.2

1716/46.2 = 37.14.

In either case, both our calculations are significantly greater than the 28 and 33 hr claims being made earlier.

No one has responded to my point about the way in which the disputed changes to terms and conditions are being introduced. Would you be ok with the strong-arm approach, or would you stand up for yourself? Particularly if you had already made concessions, with the implication being that if you agreed to those previous changes, then you would be left alone...

kevinmcc

OK so i've worked out that the lowest income an EI Cabin Crew member is on is 350 per week after tax but not including commission. Obviously as this is the entry rate and EI haven't recruited in a few years all are on more.

And let's not forget once you reach the top of the scale as a regular cabin crew member you get 570 per week after tax. Again not including commission. And again if you move up to a more senior crew position this will be higher. Not shabby at all!

Diddler1977

chalkitdown wrote: »

Wow, I've just noticed that most of the posters that are supporting management in this are new to boards....Hmmm....

I wouldn't consider myself new.

Ganimede

Its mad. I was out in T2 this morning on a simple return jaunt to London that never transpired. Awkward faces on the ground staff and handlers at the desks.

We had to let go 50% of our colleagues in my business (biotech) in 2010 due to the economic crisis in the USA. My colleagues really worked their asses off... up to 14 hours a day in stressful circumstances. 20 days holidays per annum, statutory minimum redundancy, lunch on the move all the time.... And the mad part about this..... All of my former colleagues would do it all again.

Its about the type of person you become working for an organisation that fashions a sense of ENTITLEMENT. For Shame....

chalkitdown

Diddler1977 wrote: »

I wouldn't consider myself new.

Nor do I, when I posted that comment I just noticed that the previous few posts were all low count posters, that's all.

scorpioishere

whycliff wrote: »

This thread is full to the neck of people making comments that they know absolutely nothing about.

You really need to have some sort of grasp on the aviation industry to have an informed opinion on all of this dispute.

What has Aerlingus staff getting a tea or coffee in Butlers got to do with this dispute scorpioishere?
They could have been ground staff for all you know, this dispute is got to do with Cabin Crew.

I agree that there are a lot of old ways in Aerlingus that needs to be eradicated in order for the company to be profitable but I think the way the company is going about it is not the correct way.

Oh they are definetely cabin crew as i heard them moaning about the place they are going, they doesn't like it or they doesn't like the colleague who will be working with them on that flight. Definetely not ground staff. Anyway these EI crews, ground staff, pilots, EI office workers are all a bunch of lazy ****ers, always moaning.

10belowzero

Bloody worker's , nobody give's a toss about the poor manager and management team that have to implement these change's , esp those who's bonus's and incentive's have already being cut , this year , and might not receive their dividend's from their corporate share allocation's , on top of all this .
Aye , it's the bloody worker's fault ,(esp contract workers - they bitch the most ) why can't EI cabin crew not sleep in the cargo hold's , whilst off duty
( worker's used to sleep by their machine's year's ago) and they did't get day's off.
Another racket is sick leave , and as for maternity leave , the employee decide's to have an unproductive unit or unit's , without as much as consulting their manager or employer , and then expect the company to stop everything to facilitate them , and then have the cheek to go missing for month's and then come back as if they had done nothing wrong .
Parental and special leave - i'm not even going there , worst of all , is staff looking for time off to attend family or '' friend's'' funerals , and going around all pole faced and moany ,effecting productivity no end.
Year's ago an employer or manager ,could give the slovenly or tardy employee a damm good thrashing , this soon resolved any productivity related issue's that the lazy employee had , i also feel ''contracted employee's'' should be thrashed more resolutely , as they sell their soul's for bit's of paper and then proceed to moan , bitch , cry and bad mouth anyone they perceive in life to have more than them.
Pay related bonus's and productivity is another racket that need's sorting , staff expecting '' a fair day's pay for a so called fair day's work'' , how can it be fair to employer's , when staff expect tea in the morning , a shagging lunch hour and bloody afternoon tea with biscuit's before employee's loaf off home (usually in a company car or vehicle) to pursue all manner of anti productivity pursuits and mischief's.
Aye staff should be working extra hour's ,pro gratis for their employer's to make up for all the money ,they got for doing nothing during the septic tiger year's ,and be glad too as well.
Now ye better all tug yere forelock's and be off to bed with ye , if ye have no work to occupy ye and don't forget if it was't for the generosity of yere employer's - giving ye good job's , that other's would work for nothing to have - ye woul't have a bed to sleep in ,Now go to sleep for work in the morning.

kevinmcc

cabincrew wrote: »

We are entiltled to rest just like everyone else.if we were to operate with 12hrs gap betwwen a return nyc leg we would be lucky to get 6hrs sleep and that would mean us we would be going across the atlantic during our wocl(window of circadian low) defo not a good idea for your captain and first officer.

How do you calculate 6 hours sleep? The Captain and First Officer have a more strict rest period than cabin crew. And as you said they will be on the same flight as you, that means you will both have the same amount of sleep. A flight will be delayed by the captain if he/she hasn't had their minimum rest period anyway. So they've enough rest to fly an A330, but you don't have enough rest to perform some cabin duties?

Corsendonk

Its not just about wages but the lost of prestige to the job for some of the older staff it seems. Air crew for Aer Lingus was once one of the most glamourous jobs to have in this state. Now there expected to be like their Ryanair counter parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_i3iX6ozvI

kevinmcc

Corsendonk wrote: »

Now there expected to be like their Ryanair counter parts.

I wouldn't go that far:

Ryanair salary is about half of EI.
No flight benefits on Ryanair.
No pension on Ryanair.
No company share with Ryanair.
No healthcare with Ryanair.

And i'm sure if you compared an EI and FR contract there would be a lot more conditions with a FR contract.

OPENROAD

Corsendonk wrote: »

Its not just about wages but the lost of prestige to the job for some of the older staff it seems. Air crew for Aer Lingus was once one of the most glamourous jobs to have in this state. Now there expected to be like their Ryanair counter parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_i3iX6ozvI

Cabin crew jobs in general were, aviation industry has changed significantly over the years and will continue to do so through mergers etc...

thebullkf

pocketvenus wrote: »

Could you please lay off the caps. You can make a valid point without them. People are more inclined to listen when they are not being shouted at.

i don't blame her tbh....people posting the same crap,without reading the thread,,,,hence the frustration... typical moaners.

thebullkf

RasTa wrote: »

Yeah this, trying to scaremonger us into the usual nonsense whilst making up points and shouting about the owners nationality.

Goodbye, enjoy the dole.

#


no need for that, petty+small minded....you just marred any sensble post you might contribute.

thebullkf

Brycen Gifted Lavender wrote: »

It's all about what you're "entitled" to with you, isn't it? I work with a lot of people like that. Institutionalised from being employed there too long, they become self-important and deluded because they think that they should do less work for more money than the rest of us johnny-come-latelys. They should spend more time actually coming into work and less time complaining about foreigners working being willing to work overtime for only time and a half or cribbing and moaning about their "entitlements."

entitlements are T's+C's...so i don't see the issue really..

since when are they doing less work?

if anything its more work they're being asked to do....


mindboggling tbh.. jealous much?

thebullkf

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Cabincrew... word in your ear.


You are making a total hash of the arguments which you obviously believe in.

You are doing neither yourself or your colleagues any favours at all .

Most posters here would deem that your attitude of raw intransigence and long

diatribes against what you perceive as bad management as the reason EI is

in the situation they are in.


That's just my opinion ,you can ignore it, or take heed, but your contributions

here do nothing to endear the Cabin Crew position to those not in the know

in these situations.

your posts are worse, your appearance of rationale now doesn't change the fact,you were initially trolling (imo) on this thread.

thebullkf

pocketvenus wrote: »

The type of people who have this country in the toilet as you so equolently put it are the likes of the EI CC.

so its not the government/bankers et al?

People who refuse to accept that we live in changing economic times where companies need to change with the times and kept cost effective. For years EI was a bloated Gov owned operation and where did that get them in the end no place. They could not compete due to high costs and operating system.

So to try to save the company and workers from the dole, where alot of them would stay considering the airline industry is already in a bad place, they streamlined, cut out deadwood and tried to operated as per most other airlines.

AL is a business, profitable.... you are mistaken if you think they give aflying fiddlers about people on the dole...

In order to save my job I took a €4k paycut, work 1 hour longer per day- that is 1/2 shorter lunch and 1/2 longer in evening. None of my colleagues or I kicked up a fuss, we prefer to stay in employment even though it was a change in our contracts which we had not previously agreed to.!!!

AT LAST!....the truth behind your posts.... Bitterness,and Jealousy.... if you and your colleagus chose to do it. its your business... enough of the begrudgery please.

thebullkf

Skadoosh wrote: »

Kate74, you're remarkably well-informed on cabin crew rostering procedures for someone who just "flies to the UK a lot for work".

It would be helpful if "vested interests" could declare themselves at the outset. I've already made it clear where I'm coming from.

very true....the amount of conair ryanair staff here...

thebullkf

neil2304 wrote: »

:pac: You think they're being screwed over?! :pac:

Honestly, EI crew have it a lot easier than most people seem to believe. I would love to see them attempt a day in Ryanair uniform

point in case:rolleyes:

FreudianSlippers

Everyone seems to be evading the point I made earlier about the decision being made already in arbitration and the unions attempting to usurp the decision by relying on a loophole in implementation.

If EI CC are so damaged by this deal then isn't it really your union's fault for entering into arbitration?