Aerlingus Cabin Crew want the best of both worlds

OutlawPete

cabincrew wrote: »

If the company come to the table and talk that's a start,we are not fighting about pay cuts extra hours etc we are fighting for the right to have a balance between life and work,no work 60hours one week 7days in a row,followed by 35 the next and so on,190duty in 28days...i am sitting looking at it in black and white.where is the balance in that.yes we want to be loyal to our company but also our families.

You're wasting your time.

People just want Lidl with wings.

And the sad thing is, they may get it - as the days of having an airline of the standard of Aer Lingus, may be numbered.

Skadoosh

And just to be completely clear:

Ground crew get up at 2.30 a.m. to go to work. They have had their shifts changed so that they can work 12 hour shifts some days, 4 hours other days. Their shifts can be changed the day before. They have to work in whatever section management decide, sometimes several different sections a day. They get two fifteen minute breaks a day at a time of management's choosing. They don't get weekends off (they get one whenever, once every couple of months) and can request a particular day off but absolutely no guarantee of getting it, and usually get their days that they need of by managing swaps but since there has been a major cutback in staff it's difficult to find someone to swap with so usually they don't get their days off at all. It's almost impossible to organise doctor or dentist appointments.

They don't get shift pay, they don't get lieu days, they've lost annual leave, they've taken pay freezes and pay cuts. They don't get to do a week of earlies or lates, they can be working a 3.00 a.m. start one day, 9.00 a.m. the net day, off the next day, 1.30 p.m. the next day, 10.00 the next day. They don't get the payouts that cabin crew do (commission for duty free sales etc.). But of course only cabin crew have it tough. :rolleyes:

Skadoosh

cabincrew wrote: »

If the company come to the table and talk that's a start,we are not fighting about pay cuts extra hours etc we are fighting for the right to have a balance between life and work,no work 60hours one week 7days in a row,followed by 35 the next and so on,190duty in 28days...i am sitting looking at it in black and white.where is the balance in that.yes we want to be loyal to our company but also our families.

They came to the table. They negotiated. They reached agreement. The union and the cabin crew now don't want to implement the agreement they signed up to.

As I asked before, why on earth would they bother negotiating again? So the union can agree and renege again? That's ridiculous.

marienbad

cabincrew wrote: »

If the company come to the table and talk that's a start,we are not fighting about pay cuts extra hours etc we are fighting for the right to have a balance between life and work,no work 60hours one week 7days in a row,followed by 35 the next and so on,190duty in 28days...i am sitting looking at it in black and white.where is the balance in that.yes we want to be loyal to our company but also our families.

But cabincrew ye have been talking for months and months, voting rejecting voting accepting and now working to rule.

It would appear to be a moving target with CC/Impact .

as for the latest buzzword soundbite ''work/life balance'' , where did that come from ? It is an indefinable term and therefore meaningless.

kevinmcc

cabincrew wrote: »

If the company come to the table and talk that's a start,we are not fighting about pay cuts extra hours etc we are fighting for the right to have a balance between life and work,no work 60hours one week 7days in a row,followed by 35 the next and so on,190duty in 28days...i am sitting looking at it in black and white.where is the balance in that.yes we want to be loyal to our company but also our families.

This doesn't make sense..60 hours one week, and 35 the next you say. Seeing as the average per week for you works out at 36/37 I'd very much doubt that it would be as high as that in the second week. I now think it's time you showed us your actual roster instead of fibbing.

foxinsox

cabincrew wrote: »

If the company come to the table and talk that's a start,we are not fighting about pay cuts extra hours etc we are fighting for the right to have a balance between life and work,no work 60hours one week 7days in a row,followed by 35 the next and so on,190duty in 28days...i am sitting looking at it in black and white.where is the balance in that.yes we want to be loyal to our company but also our families.

Ok.. I haven't read the stuff about the actual agreements that were made with AL management through the unions. Sorry!

Were the new hours agreed at the "meetings" with all sides?

Is it a case that all cabin crew are doing the hours you mentioned above?

Or is it that they could possibly end up doing those kind of shifts sometimes? That AL want the option of rostering staff on those shifts sometimes? To cover all their bases in the T & C if you know what I mean?

How does the Working Time Directive apply to airline staff (when in air)?

I mean you can't pop out for lunch..

kate74

Skadoosh wrote: »

Have they? Where have you "read" this? (Of course you're not talking from personal knowledge because you're not cabin crew). So you read this in a newspaper? Well, it's not true. Simple as that.

They've gone after my DH numerous times. As I've said. He's been in the company for almost five times the amount of time cabincrew has worked there so he's been hit a lot more times. And he's given, and given, and given, as have other ground crew. Cabin crew have not been as hard hit because they're more militant and the reality is it's easier to replace catering staff or boarding crew with management if necessary, than to replace cabin crew, because you don't have to have particular training to do catering/baggage. And yes, I'm saying that cabin crew have a skilled job, never suggested otherwise. But that doesn't mean they don't have to share the pain to keep the airline afloat rather than expecting everyone else to do it for them.

If you're not cabincrew and you're only arguing with what you've read in the paper, as you've stated, then can I suggest you change newspapers? Because this is just completely wrong (and dare I say it, biased for somebody who declares themselves neutral).

Eh you were the one who said they got a payoff and were on 40% less pay or something. As I said before I can read.

And when you questioned how I knew that crew could work 60 hours in 7 days and again you were baffled as to how i could know this without having insider info I told you I read this also on the internet (the google search function, you should try it). I like to equip myself with all the information before forming an opinion something you don't seem to be familiar with your one side info from your DH

kevinmcc

kate74 wrote: »

And when you questioned how I knew that crew could work 60 hours in 7 days

They work on average 36/37 hours per week.

FreudianSlippers

Skadoosh wrote: »

And just to be completely clear:

Ground crew get up at 2.30 a.m. to go to work. They have had their shifts changed so that they can work 12 hour shifts some days, 4 hours other days. Their shifts can be changed the day before. They have to work in whatever section management decide, sometimes several different sections a day. They get two fifteen minute breaks a day at a time of management's choosing. They don't get weekends off (they get one whenever, once every couple of months) and can request a particular day off but absolutely no guarantee of getting it, and usually get their days that they need of by managing swaps but since there has been a major cutback in staff it's difficult to find someone to swap with so usually they don't get their days off at all. It's almost impossible to organise doctor or dentist appointments.

They don't get shift pay, they don't get lieu days, they've lost annual leave, they've taken pay freezes and pay cuts. They don't get to do a week of earlies or lates, they can be working a 3.00 a.m. start one day, 9.00 a.m. the net day, off the next day, 1.30 p.m. the next day, 10.00 the next day. They don't get the payouts that cabin crew do (commission for duty free sales etc.). But of course only cabin crew have it tough. :rolleyes:

So? THAT's the new job. The alternative is redundancy.

The unions are destroying the market

FreudianSlippers

foxinsox wrote: »

Ok.. I haven't read the stuff about the actual agreements that were made with AL management through the unions. Sorry!

Were the new hours agreed at the "meetings" with all sides?

Is it a case that all cabin crew are doing the hours you mentioned above?

Or is it that they could possibly end up doing those kind of shifts sometimes? That AL want the option of rostering staff on those shifts sometimes? To cover all their bases in the T & C if you know what I mean?

How does the Working Time Directive apply to airline staff (when in air)?

I mean you can't pop out for lunch..

It was decided through months of negotiations and eventually in arbitration.

The working time directive applies to all workers, including those in the air. There are certain exceptions but that's for doctors etc.

Skadoosh

kate74 wrote: »

Eh you were the one who said they got a payoff and were on 40% less pay or something. As I said before I can read.

And when you questioned how I knew that crew could work 60 hours in 7 days and again you were baffled as to how i could know this without having insider info I told you I read this also on the internet (the google search function, you should try it). I like to equip myself with all the information before forming an opinion something you don't seem to be familiar with your one side info from your DH

Some staff got a payout. Not all. And a lot of the cuts came about over the years long before there was a payout, as you'd know if you read my posts.

And just a small word of warning, just because you google something doesn't make it true.

Please don't patronise me by stating I'm getting "one info from my DH". I'm not a little wifey sitting at home being fed information by my lord and master. Aer Lingus is a major factor in us paying our mortgage and has been since the 80s, so believe me, I'm better informed than somebody who, we're supposed to believe, has had no interest in Aer Lingus disputes up to the last couple of days and is "googling".

Skadoosh

OisinT wrote: »

So? THAT's the new job. The alternative is redundancy.

The unions are destroying the market

Oisin, you're preaching to the converted. What I'm trying to point out is what the rest of the staff are putting up with. That's why there's little sympathy for cabin crew and their "we'd like to take our meal breaks together, off the plane" complaints.

FreudianSlippers

Skadoosh wrote: »

Oisin, you're preaching to the converted. What I'm trying to point out is what the rest of the staff are putting up with. That's why there's little sympathy for cabin crew and their "we'd like to take our meal breaks together, off the plane" complaints.

No, I know... my post wasn't actually meant to be directed at you - rather a backup of your point.

Goldenegg

I have googled this alot it and have a friend who works on the ground in EI.

She told me that they get their weekends off before their annual leave,crew don't.

Crew also gave up 10 days out of their annual leave - they lost annual leave the same as the ground.

Crew have taken pay cuts, freezes, and lost increments- the ground got a hefty lump sum pay off or "migration" package as it was known. Crew were not offered this as far as I can see, although correct me if I am wrong, I read a few pages back that their union turned this down.

I think skadoosh is coming across quite bitter in this debate, and trying to put on the poor mouth of poor me and my husband he has given this and that. Obviously he would have given more as you say he is there 20+ years, where as the average length for CC at the moment is 7/8 years, the old dears seem to have left...obviously not all of them.

I whole heartily support cabin crew in their fight against bullying management! I think it is wrong of employers to be jumping on the bandwagon, using the recession as an excuse to treat their employees like a piece of dirt on the street. If we start bowing down to this, kiss your @ss goodbye people, because the work policies in ireland as we know it will have changed forever.

Best of luck to the CC,
From a sympathetic aerlingus passenger

cabincrew

Skadoosh wrote: »

They came to the table. They negotiated. They reached agreement. The union and the cabin crew now don't want to implement the agreement they signed up to.

As I asked before, why on earth would they bother negotiating again? So the union can agree and renege again? That's ridiculous.

Ive explained many times that only a fraction of the current work practice was agreed,the rest wasn't...so while what we agreed is binding,its also binding that any additional changes to our contracts must be agreed by us first..you all seem to miss that.and u also miss the fact that the cabin crew are working to the binding arbitration agreement,its the company that's not

Skadoosh

I'm not bitter. I'd just prefer if, after all my husband has given up over 20 odd years, a militant group didn't shut the airline down because they don't like the terms and conditions their union accepted.

That's common sense. Do you really think the company are going to back down on this one?

And I'm annoyed at cabin crew and pilots demanding that other staff back them up, when they haven't backed up any other sections and in fact pilots suggesting laying off a whole section rather than them having to take a pay cut. Solidarity? I don't think so.

Bitter, no. Just an ordinary wife with a mortgage and a husband who'd like to have a job next week.

foxinsox

foxinsox wrote: »

Is it a case that all cabin crew are doing the hours you mentioned above?

Or is it that they could possibly end up doing those kind of shifts sometimes? That AL want the option of rostering staff on those shifts sometimes? To cover all their bases in the T & C if you know what I mean?

Still wondering about the answer to the above?


Apologies for quoting myself

Skadoosh

cabincrew wrote: »

Ive explained many times that only a fraction of the current work practice was agreed,the rest wasn't...so while what we agreed is binding,its also binding that any additional changes to our contracts must be agreed by us first..you all seem to miss that.and u also miss the fact that the cabin crew are working to the binding arbitration agreement,its the company that's not

Ground crew didn't agree the 12 hour, 8 hour, 8 hour, 2 x 4 hour roster either (or something like that, I'm tired). Guess what? They didn't try to go back and renegotiate.

Do you think the company should have printed out draft rosters for cabin crew for their approval before Impact signed up?

You'd get a bit more sympathy if you stopped talking about "11 hours with no meal break" and stated the reality which is "meal breaks on the plane, staggered". If you won't admit things have that already been clarified elsewhere, why would anyone listen to any of your other points?

cabincrew

Goldenegg wrote: »

I have googled this alot it and have a friend who works on the ground in EI.

She told me that they get their weekends off before their annual leave,crew don't.

Crew also gave up 10 days out of their annual leave - they lost annual leave the same as the ground.

Crew have taken pay cuts, freezes, and lost increments- the ground got a hefty lump sum pay off or "migration" package as it was known. Crew were not offered this as far as I can see, although correct me if I am wrong, I read a few pages back that their union turned this down.

I think skadoosh is coming across quite bitter in this debate, and trying to put on the poor mouth of poor me and my husband he has given this and that. Obviously he would have given more as you say he is there 20+ years, where as the average length for CC at the moment is 7/8 years, the old dears seem to have left...obviously not all of them.

I whole heartily support cabin crew in their fight against bullying management! I think it is wrong of employers to be jumping on the bandwagon, using the recession as an excuse to treat their employees like a piece of dirt on the street. If we start bowing down to this, kiss your @ss goodbye people, because the work policies in ireland as we know it will have changed forever.

Best of luck to the CC,
From a sympathetic aerlingus passenger

Thank you so much,we all really appreciate your support,your right that cabin crew were offered the migration package of a min of 30 grand,our career was more important than money,both impact and Siptu who both represent cabin crew declined the offer.i really hope we get this sorted out soon and thanks again.

kevinmcc

cabincrew how many days annual leave are you entitled to at EI not including public holidays and does this increase over time?

kate74

Skadoosh wrote: »

Some staff got a payout. Not all. And a lot of the cuts came about over the years long before there was a payout, as you'd know if you read my posts.

And just a small word of warning, just because you google something doesn't make it true.

Please don't patronise me by stating I'm getting "one info from my DH". I'm not a little wifey sitting at home being fed information by my lord and master. Aer Lingus is a major factor in us paying our mortgage and has been since the 80s, so believe me, I'm better informed than somebody who, we're supposed to believe, has had no interest in Aer Lingus disputes up to the last couple of days and is "googling".

Thank you for the word of warning I will no longer google. Seriously though it appears that cabincrew have taken as many cuts, payfreezes etc as other sections. My problem anyway is how the company are evidently bullying the staff.

And I never said I had no interest in the dispute up until the last few days? I don't need a DH in the industry to be interested in this

barrackali

Goldenegg wrote: »

I have googled this alot it and have a friend who works on the ground in EI.

She told me that they get their weekends off before their annual leave,crew don't.

Crew also gave up 10 days out of their annual leave - they lost annual leave the same as the ground.

Crew have taken pay cuts, freezes, and lost increments- the ground got a hefty lump sum pay off or "migration" package as it was known. Crew were not offered this as far as I can see, although correct me if I am wrong, I read a few pages back that their union turned this down.

I think skadoosh is coming across quite bitter in this debate, and trying to put on the poor mouth of poor me and my husband he has given this and that. Obviously he would have given more as you say he is there 20+ years, where as the average length for CC at the moment is 7/8 years, the old dears seem to have left...obviously not all of them.

I whole heartily support cabin crew in their fight against bullying management! I think it is wrong of employers to be jumping on the bandwagon, using the recession as an excuse to treat their employees like a piece of dirt on the street. If we start bowing down to this, kiss your @ss goodbye people, because the work policies in ireland as we know it will have changed forever.

Best of luck to the CC,
From a sympathetic aerlingus passenger

The Cabin Crew won't have any jobs if they don't work to the agreement they made with EI. Aer Lingus will be well within their rights to fire them.

cabincrew

Skadoosh wrote: »

Ground crew didn't agree the 12 hour, 8 hour, 8 hour, 2 x 4 hour roster either (or something like that, I'm tired). Guess what? They didn't try to go back and renegotiate.

Do you think the company should have printed out draft rosters for cabin crew for their approval before Impact signed up?

You'd get a bit more sympathy if you stopped talking about "11 hours with no meal break" and stated the reality which is "meal breaks on the plane, staggered". If you won't admit things have that already been clarified elsewhere, why would anyone listen to any of your other points?

Again i ask you to find a way to have staggered breaks on a duty that takes you from dub-Paris-dub-ams-dub both flights are 1hr15-1hr 10 they are early am flights for business passengers so always full and busy,like i said we rarely get to do duty free because the service is so busy.they check in between 5-6am and don't land home until after 4pm.they are over a ten hour duty,of course u,d think we,d get time for a break even for 15mins here and there but its not possible on those flights.

kevinmcc

cabincrew wrote: »

Again i ask you to find a way to have staggered breaks on a duty that takes you from dub-Paris-dub-ams-dub both flights are 1hr15-1hr 10 they are early am flights for business passengers so always full and busy,like i said we rarely get to do duty free because the service is so busy.they check in between 5-6am and don't land home until after 4pm.they are over a ten hour duty,of course u,d think we,d get time for a break even for 15mins here and there but its not possible on those flights.

Why don't you ask your colleagues in Belfast instead how? After all they've been able to do it for three years now

Goldenegg

You have to look at it from both sides.

We the public are being told that they agreed new T+C, by a whopping 93% and then the CEO comes back with new T+C which were not agreed to.

I totally agree that in this day and age in order to survive in the aviation industry, sacrifices have to me made within the CO to keep it in profit and afloat. I don't think this is what the CC are arguing about here, I think they are arguing about the unwarrented changes to their rosters.

It was my understanding that a CO cannot fire an employee who is partaking in industrial action, be it work to rule or strike.

Surely if EI are completely in the wrong, if this goes back to the LRC they won't have a leg to stand on.

cabincrew

barrackali wrote: »

The Cabin Crew won't have any jobs if they don't work to the agreement they made with EI. Aer Lingus will be well within their rights to fire them.

We didn't agree to the company new roster and contract plans.if we did then why does the letter the company are trying to get us to sign go along the lines of....i agree to work my published roster even thou its not part of the the binding arbitration agreement...... and before i get accused of lieing because lets face facts its a cheek of a letter,i swear i tell the truth.

kate74

Skadoosh wrote: »

. Just an ordinary wife with a mortgage and a husband who'd like to have a job next week.

and I'm sure the cabin crew who haven't been paid in over a week want to pay their mortgages too.

kevinmcc

So I've just discovered that Aer Lingus Pilots get 34 days leave increasing to 46 with length of service and rank.

Somehow I'm thinking this is similar for EI cabin crew, given the user 'cabincrew's lack of response on it.

cabincrew

Goldenegg wrote: »

You have to look at it from both sides.

We the public are being told that they agreed new T+C, by a whopping 93% and then the CEO comes back with new T+C which were not agreed to.

I totally agree that in this day and age in order to survive in the aviation industry, sacrifices have to me made within the CO to keep it in profit and afloat. I don't think this is what the CC are arguing about here, I think they are arguing about the unwarrented changes to their rosters.

It was my understanding that a CO cannot fire an employee who is partaking in industrial action, be it work to rule or strike.

Surely if EI are completely in the wrong, if this goes back to the LRC they won't have a leg to stand on.

Exactly,that's why they wont go back because they wont have a leg to stand on,if they are so right with what they are doing then why wont they go to the lrc?that says it all.

marienbad

Cabin Crew, you need to realize that the ''golden age'' of air travel is long gone. The days when it cost 400 pounds to fly to London and Jumbos flew to JFK with 50 passengers are over,with the tax payer will making up any loss.

Stop listening to the old dears on the TA flights. They are filling your head with nonsense. The days when Ireland had to have their own banks and Airlines are gone . And it is their own employees that have brought this about.

You have been in a protected environment longer than most but those days are gone. You either make a profit or go under.Simple as . Get used to it.

kate74

kevinmcc wrote: »

So I've just discovered that Aer Lingus Pilots get 34 days leave increasing to 46 with length of service and rank.

Somehow I'm thinking this is similar for EI cabin crew, given the user 'cabincrew's lack of response on it.

Goldenegg just posted they gave up 10 days leave in presumably last agreement

kevinmcc

kate74 wrote: »

Goldenegg just posted they gave up 10 days leave in presumably last agreement

That's coming from Goldenegg's ground staff friend. I'd like to hear from cabin crew exactly how many days leave she currently gets. Because so far she avoids answering this.

She also avoids answering how much her salary is and avoids showing her new roster.

Without any of this info, it's hard to support any EI Crew member.

Hannibal

kevinmcc wrote: »

So I've just discovered that Aer Lingus Pilots get 34 days leave increasing to 46 with length of service and rank.

Somehow I'm thinking this is similar for EI cabin crew, given the user 'cabincrew's lack of response on it.

Was it your lifes ambition to be cabin crew or a pilot seen as you're so obsessed by the airline industry?
The facts is simple, cabin crew have agreed to pay cuts and pay freezes the last few years a lot, there's only so much a piece of string can take especially from a hostile management. They dont earn anywhere near as much as you seem to be under the illusion they do. Theyre right in this dispute when you understand the facts of it.

cabincrew

kevinmcc wrote: »

So I've just discovered that Aer Lingus Pilots get 34 days leave increasing to 46 with length of service and rank.

Somehow I'm thinking this is similar for EI cabin crew, given the user 'cabincrew's lack of response on it.

Maybe they do,i don't know,but we don't.we get 28a/l days plus ten bank hols =38,we don't get extra with l.o s i can assure you,you use to be able to carry some over for up to 3months so that's the only way it would be extra days for that year,that's only when the company cant honor ur leave days the previous year,im also not complaining about my leave days so i don't know why that's relevant?

kevinmcc

Dotsey wrote: »

Was it your lifes ambition to be cabin crew or a pilot seen as you're so obsessed by the airline industry?
The facts is simple, cabin crew have agreed to pay cuts and pay freezes the last few years a lot, there's only so much a piece of string can take especially from a hostile management. They dont earn anywhere near as much as you seem to be under the illusion they do. Theyre right in this dispute when you understand the facts of it.

No, I work in the airline industry, hence my knowledge of it. The facts are simple you say, well why not reread the lies which 'cabincrew' has been telling on this forum which she's been caught out in

foxinsox

I think I've formed an opinion of sorts on this situation and I am open to correction if I've got it wrong on some parts.

If these hours were all signed off and agreed, cabin crew have to do them.

If you are working a 10/11 hour shift and not getting any break, get a solicitor, go to the labour court because surely this is against all employee's rights?

Why bother being a member of a union if all they are doing is "shiv stirring"?

Approach your HR department and take your personal/particular complaint or grievance with them, again surely they have to abide by employee legislation.

Who on board the plane tells you that you cannot have a break?

Is it written in your contract that you cannot have a break within these hours?

From all I have read on here, newpapers and any reports I have read seem to tell me that AL is in crisis, they are an airline, they are not flying planes (ok some) so they are not taking in money.

The basics of any business..

customers need service/product

customers pay for service/product

business pays staff to provide service/product

if there is no service/product there are no customers

if there are no customers there is no business

if there is no business there is no need for staff

if there is no business, no customers, no staff there is no money..


If I was in a situation where I had a family, bills to pay etc. I would be working the shifts I was given and just get on with it.

I honestly don't think anyone is taking advantage of the recession, times are tough. People don't have as much money to spend on anything. So every passenger's ticket money is paying the wages of the staff.

The publicity over AL's "disputes" (not just this one) just puts customers off using their service for fear of flights being disrupted. And so the vicious cycle continues.

Once again, no customers, no business.

I don't mean to offend anyone on here who maybe staff and I do understand it is tough. But from what I understand from a legal point of view AL can refer to the contracts signed and if staff are not meeting any requirement of the T & C they most probably will be let go and replaced by new staff. That situation is the world over regardless of years of service.

One signs a contract and agrees to do a job, agrees to an amount to be paid for that job, one either does the job as outlined in the contract or may be asked to leave that job.

I would like to see it sorted one way or another for everyone's sake.

kevinmcc

cabincrew wrote: »

Maybe they do,i don't know,but we don't.we get 28a/l days plus ten bank hols =38,we don't get extra with l.o s i can assure you,you use to be able to carry some over for up to 3months so that's the only way it would be extra days for that year,that's only when the company cant honor ur leave days the previous year,im also not complaining about my leave days so i don't know why that's relevant?

OK that's cool, it's relevant because I wanted to make sure that my calculations are correct. So you will work 36.6 hours per week on average, going from your earlier post that you have 1716 duty hours per annum.

cabincrew

kevinmcc wrote: »

That's coming from Goldenegg's ground staff friend. I'd like to hear from cabin crew exactly how many days leave she currently gets. Because so far she avoids answering this.

She also avoids answering how much her salary is and avoids showing her new roster.

Without any of this info, it's hard to support any EI Crew member.

We also gave ten days leave up last year,everyone had a choice of give up the ten leave days or if you wanted to keep the days then u gave up ten days pay instead.personally i gave the leave days if thats what your asking

kate74

kevinmcc wrote: »

No, I work in the airline industry, hence my knowledge of it. The facts are simple you say, well why not reread the lies which 'cabincrew' has been telling on this forum which she's been caught out in

Who do your work for? what is your salary and upload your roster for us? Go on Go on..

Goldenegg

So how much salary do you earn each year? Why don't you upload your roster for everyone to see? I know you don't need to obviously do that but my point is, the first question you asked there is extremely personal and displays a lack of manners IMO.

kevinmcc wrote: »

That's coming from Goldenegg's ground staff friend. I'd like to hear from cabin crew exactly how many days leave she currently gets. Because so far she avoids answering this.

She also avoids answering how much her salary is and avoids showing her new roster.

Without any of this info, it's hard to support any EI Crew member.

kevinmcc

Goldenegg wrote: »

So how much salary do you earn each year? Why don't you upload your roster for everyone to see? I know you don't need to obviously do that but my point is, the first question you asked there is extremely personal and displays a lack of manners IMO.

Because I aint the one crying that my roster is unworkable and can't have a "work/life balance". If 175 people aren't able to accept these new rosters, what's so harsh about showing them to the media to inform the irish public just how bad they are. I just have very strong disbelief that someone on 36.6 hours a week can have a roster so unworkable.

Hannibal

kevinmcc wrote: »

No, I work in the airline industry, hence my knowledge of it. The facts are simple you say, well why not reread the lies which 'cabincrew' has been telling on this forum which she's been caught out in

I havent read all 'cabincrews' posts, I have friends who are cabin crew and I know from them the last few years they have been giving and giving and that the companys new conditions are a bit off the wall. IMHO management have handled this situation wrong and Mr Mullers head could roll on this eventually. Normal cabin crew don't get paid a lot, its decent but not great.
EI have a problem with having too many middle management on bumped up legacy pay and from what I've heard a lot of the older staff ie 50+ were holding out the last few years hoping for a nice pay off to the detriment of the younger staff. Its a conflict that has to be resolved urgently as its not good for the company or the countries image as a whole. But the manner and contempt in which the management are treating these employees with cannot be tolerated and we need parties around the table asap.

Goldenegg

I'm not being funny, but would uploading a roster, which i presume would have the employees details and flight numbers everyday for the week not be a little bit of a security breach? Coming from someone in the aviation section Kevin, you of all people should know that. If I uploaded my roster on the Internet with all the inside company and personal details on it, I would more than likely be given my p45.

cabincrew

kevinmcc wrote: »

OK that's cool, it's relevant because I wanted to make sure that my calculations are correct. So you will work 36.6 hours per week on average, going from your earlier post that you have 1716 duty hours per annum.

no we work an ave of about 41 hrs a week give or take.ur not deducting our reg days off each week either,ur just deducting our leave days then dividing the balance by 1716,u also have to deduct our normal days off.so its roughly 41hrs a week but again we could work 60 hrs in 7 days and say 35 the next and so on.

kevinmcc

Goldenegg wrote: »

I'm not being funny, but would uploading a roster, which i presume would have the employees details and flight numbers everyday for the week not be a little bit of a security breach? Coming from someone in the aviation section Kevin, you of all people should know that. If I uploaded my roster on the Internet with all the inside company and personal details on it, I would more than likely be given my p45.

I don't mean all the company and personal info of course, I mean the hours, the destinations, times..that's not a breach.

kate74

Regardless whether the cabin crew in AL earn a million quid a year or have 300 days off the issue in hand is that the company seem to think they can impose new appalling changes at the drop of a hat without any type of agreement and workers are expected to accept them coz they are damn well lucky to have a job. Respect to the cabin crew for standing up for themselves

kevinmcc

cabincrew wrote: »

no we work an ave of about 41 hrs a week give or take.ur not deducting our reg days off each week either,ur just deducting our leave days then dividing the balance by 1716,u also have to deduct our normal days off.so its roughly 41hrs a week but again we could work 60 hrs in 7 days and say 35 the next and so on.

No, you are calculating it wrong. You work 36.6 hours on average per week. I will show you how its worked out:

Take your 28 days annual leave plus 9 public holidays = 37.

365 days -37 leave = 328
1716 duty hours/328 = 5.23 X 7(week) = 36.62 hours per week.

Your assumption that you can work 60 hours one week and 35 the next is also strange. Assuming you worked 60 hours one week, 35 the next, your already over by 21.8 hours in the first 2 weeks, so week 3 must have 15 hours?

cabincrew

kevinmcc wrote: »

No, you are calculating it wrong. You work 36.6 hours on average per week. I will show you how its worked out:

Take your 28 days annual leave plus 9 public holidays = 37.

365 days -37 leave = 328
1716 duty hours/328 = 5.23 X 7(week) = 36.62 hours per week.

Your assumption that you can work 60 hours one week and 35 the next is also strange. Assuming you worked 60 hours one week, 35 the next, your already over by 21.8 hours in the first 2 weeks, so week 3 must have 15 hours?

No kevin..that would be saying that apart from our leave and public hols that we work the balance remaining..but we dont,u must factor in our normal days off in each week,then divide the balance.if i wasnt so tired i,d so it for you but i havnt the energy. we can work 190 duty hours in 28 days. spread our or not so spread out what ever way the company decide.

qwerty13

Of course we'd all love shorter flowers and more honey, not just in EI, but in every job; but let's face it, those times are gone. Well gone.

I, and almost all of my friends, have had to take paycuts, do extra hours and be extremely flexible about deadlines, late hours, and weekends. You could argue that if everyone said no to that, then it wouldn't be imposed on any of us. But if everyone in our company said no, where do you think the customers would go? - to the cheaper competitor. And we'd be taking a salary cut down to zero then. Again, you could argue that things should be more about people and a nice working environment than profit, but times have changed, businesses don't operate like that anymore - because customers are far better informed, and aren't prepared to put up with the higher costs - and competitors set themselves us to take advantage of that. I mean to take it to a very familar level, I'm sure everyone here shops around for the best value that they can get for groceries - and if you think that makes the job of anyone in retail any easier, then I'm afraid you are mistaken. Of course there's always the tiny % that will pay more for high-end goods/services, but most people don't have the cash or the snobbery to do that.

So where does ths leave EI? Aim for the high end market, or try to cut costs to remain competitive (with MO'L snapping at their heels at every turn). They've clearly decided to try to be competitive, so the reality is that they simply can't afford to leave a plane lying idle while crew have their break on the ground, all together. And I can't see what the problem is. I work in a desk job, sandwich at my desk while I'm working most days - at whatever time fits in around my working schedule. Is anyone seriously saying that this is not possible on a flight? Come on, I'd often have half my lunch in under 5 mins, get interrupted, and return to the other half of by then soggy sandwich later on - fitting in around work. Of course I'd love to have lunch at a time of my choosing, with my friends/colleagues, but really, it's hardly something to be up in arms over.

I've read all of this thread, and I can't feel the slightest bit of sympathy for the cabin crew. All I feel like saying is 'welcome to reality'. And the ridiculous points put forward about women with children and the data protection act re couriers just makes me feel that the union clearly have not got a leg to stand on, if they are advancing beyond silly arguments like that. Time and time again on this thread, people have asked for the huge sense of grievence to be explained - and I don't feel that anyone has done that. Guys, all I can say is that you can choose to stand firm on your principles - which, some of you at least, clearly believe in - but at what cost? And at what personal cost to the people in EI who are willing to meet reality? Can't you see that? Can't you feel the overwhelming lack of support here? Can't you see that for EI to be competitve and yet have T&C that are way out of whack with competitors is just not sustainable? I mean what do you want to happen, do you genuinely believe that it is possible to retain the advantageous EI T&C, and that the company can be competitve? Really?

Corsendonk

Dotsey wrote: »

I havent read all 'cabincrews' posts, I have friends who are cabin crew and I know from them the last few years they have been giving and giving and that the companys new conditions are a bit off the wall. IMHO management have handled this situation wrong and Mr Mullers head could roll on this eventually. Normal cabin crew don't get paid a lot, its decent but not great.
EI have a problem with having too many middle management on bumped up legacy pay and from what I've heard a lot of the older staff ie 50+ were holding out the last few years hoping for a nice pay off to the detriment of the younger staff. Its a conflict that has to be resolved urgently as its not good for the company or the countries image as a whole. But the manner and contempt in which the management are treating these employees with cannot be tolerated and we need parties around the table asap.

Basically whats happened in most large private companies in the state in the last 5 years yet nothing was said. When the same happens to the cabin crew they still think their state employees and it shouldn't happen to them so we get this hysteria from them. Whats to stop Aer Lingus sub contracting cabin staff out to a third party contract?