Aerlingus Cabin Crew want the best of both worlds

biko

This thread seems to just descend further and further into bickering and fighting - we'll leave it for now.

Micky Dolenz

Mutilpe infractions handed out.

mandy30 and xxx000 banned.

We'll keep this closed for now. Please PM me if any new information comes to light and we may re open the discussion.

Micky Dolenz

Story has developed, so will reopen. Please bear in mind if any more fighting occurs it will get locked permanently.

kevinmcc

From the Irish Independent today
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/longer-shifts-with-less-time-off-at-core-of-cabin-crew-row-2512765.html

WORKING longer shifts with less time off are the core issues at the centre of the crippling Aer Lingus cabin crew dispute.

The row over new cabin crew rosters will ground more than 10 flights to European destinations again today, causing chaos for hundreds of passengers.

The exact reasons for the ongoing dispute have remained unclear -- with union Impact highlighting changes in rosters to meal breaks, days off and 'rest time' between flights.

But last night, Aer Lingus insisted the rules on many of these issues have only changed slightly -- to cover exceptional situations -- and claimed staff did not want to spend more time in the air despite agreeing to do so.

It said the key issue was that they would have to work longer shifts that might include two round trips in a day.

This means travelling to and from a destination in one day -- for example, Dublin-London-Dublin-London-Dublin.

The airline wants to increase the time the cabin crew spend in the air by another 20 hours a year, from 830 hours to 850 hours annually -- or 16 hours a week -- as part of its €97m survival plan.

However, Aer Lingus said staff on the new rosters would still only work an average of just under six hours a day, which includes time in the air and on the ground, with shifts ranging from two hours 20 minutes to 11 hours and 55 minutes.

It said the longest shifts were rare, and represented less than 1pc of its entire schedule.

"If your average working day is less than six hours, there is still plenty of time left to spend with your family," said a spokesperson.

The airline claimed the changes it was making to rosters were standard international practice. Cabin crew at other airlines, including Ryanair, work up to 900 hours flying time a year.

Last night, Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary said the Aer Lingus cabin crew were "not overworked people" and were being asked to spend less than 18 hours in the air each week.

He said his cabin crew worked tougher rosters that meant they have four or five days on and three days off, and the arrangement at Aer Lingus was much better.

"The staff at Aer Lingus are doing less than that and we're hearing that they can't manage their children or their lifestyles," he told the Irish Independent.

But Impact claimed the time that cabin crew get off from work was not what it used to be. It said they were entitled to one less day off a month -- a minimum of seven days rather than the previous eight.

Roster

However, the airline said cabin crew were entitled to 16 days within two months under the new rules.

Another roster change means the cabin crew have to accept their working day can be delayed by up to three hours when they turn up for work, if there was a technical issue with the plane for example.

However, the airline said the previous arrangement meant cabin crew accepted delays of up to two hours.

Impact said the airline had halved the minimum 'rest time' they get between transatlantic flights from 24 hours to 12 hours.

The airline accepted that 12 hours is the minimum requirement, but the norm is that there is usually a 24-hour break between flights.

It said, in addition, that staff get two days off after any transatlantic round trip.

On meal breaks, Aer Lingus said staff could still take a break although the union claims meal breaks have been axed on all European flights.

Impact has branded the changes "draconian" and "anti-family".

There is no sign of a breakthrough in the dispute as the airline held disciplinary meetings yesterday with four of 200 staff it had struck off the payroll for refusing to work the rosters.

Impact has asked the Labour Court to intervene, but this is unlikely unless the court also gets a request from the airline.

Another 14 flights were cancelled yesterday during a second week of disruption that has affected more than 5,000 passengers with the cancellation of 60-plus flights.

KerranJast

Seems to me that Aer Lingus is moving to a situation where their cabin crew's t&cs are similar to their competitors, which is sensible given how cutthroat the industry is now.

The biggest complaint I've heard from cabin crew is that the new rostering is "anti-family" and affects their work-life balance. Did they ever stop to thing that as a career, being a cabin crew member isn't very conducive to a normal home life and that's just the way it is? It's not fair but it's reality.

The industry has changed so much that its really only suited to younger staff who are happy to work long hours and aren't going to be in it for the long haul. That's the nature of most service jobs now.

fred252

what's the most likely way this will play out and are we talking a matter of weeks or months here?

Capt'n Midnight

KerranJast wrote: »

The industry has changed so much that its really only suited to younger staff who are happy to work long hours and aren't going to be in it for the long haul.

aren't going to be in it for the long haul :pac:

fred252

KerranJast wrote: »

Seems to me that Aer Lingus is moving to a situation where their cabin crew's t&cs are similar to their competitors, which is sensible given how cutthroat the industry is now.

The biggest complaint I've heard from cabin crew is that the new rostering is "anti-family" and affects their work-life balance. Did they ever stop to thing that as a career, being a cabin crew member isn't very conducive to a normal home life and that's just the way it is? It's not fair but it's reality.

The industry has changed so much that its really only suited to younger staff who are happy to work long hours and aren't going to be in it for the long haul. That's the nature of most service jobs now.

if that's the case how come you only seem to get old fogies on the transatlantic flights of US operators?

jerry2623

Just listened to two CC memeber with Pat Kenny both uninterested in the practices that are standered in there main competitors and worried about the race to the bottom. It seems to me they have there heads in the clouds and canot face realality . This will happen soon enough when the company goes bust

FreudianSlippers

jerry2623 wrote: »

Just listened to two CC memeber with Pat Kenny both uninterested in the practices that are standered in there main competitors and worried about the race to the bottom. It seems to me they have there heads in the clouds and canot face realality . This will happen soon enough when the company goes bust

Company really isn't in danger of going bust at the moment. They may run operating profits this year even.

jerry2623

OisinT wrote: »

Company really isn't in danger of going bust at the moment. They may run operating profits this year even.

Traffic for December back 27% on last year , posted losses of 20 million up to the end of June
cash reserves were 1.2 billion in 2008 now down to approx 500 million what part of loss making do you not understand

pocketvenus

jerry2623 wrote: »

Traffic for December back 27% on last year , posted losses of 20 million up to the end of June
cash reserves were 1.2 billion in 2008 now down to approx 500 million what part of loss making do you not understand

Another point that is worth knowing any major airline needs to have apporx $1.5bn in reserves to operate day to day and avoid bankruptcy.

FreudianSlippers

jerry2623 wrote: »

Traffic for December back 27% on last year , posted losses of 20 million up to the end of June
cash reserves were 1.2 billion in 2008 now down to approx 500 million what part of loss making do you not understand

Welcome to the thread btw. I posted figures earlier including the large loss the first half of last year. Also posted with source the small profit in the 2nd half and the projected minor operating profit 2011.

Big Nasty

This ****e wouldn't be accepted in any normal private sector job!

BOSS: I need you to work an extra 30hrs a year
ME: 30 hrs a year, like an extra 35 mins a week? Feck that, I'm going on strike!

barnaclebill

Cabin crew are treated like **** from what I've seen. It's a glamourised version of a Tesco worker!

FreudianSlippers

barnaclebill wrote: »

Cabin crew are treated like **** from what I've seen. It's a glamourised version of a Tesco worker!

People act the way they want to be treated.

Osgoodisgood

barnaclebill wrote: »

Cabin crew are treated like **** from what I've seen.

What have you seen?

Peanut2011

barnaclebill wrote: »

Cabin crew are treated like **** from what I've seen. It's a glamourised version of a Tesco worker!

Do you see Tesco workers striking???? To say that now is an insult to every Tesco worker!

kevinmcc

Aer Lingus have now confirmed that under the new rosters crew will work on average 5 hours 48 minutes per day including time outside of flying. Much shorter than what EI staff had been trying to come across with on here.

foxinsox

Skadoosh wrote: »

It's not round and round Kate. Foxinbox asked why his question about the 11 hour meal break wasn't answered. I clarified for him.

Can I just say I'm foxinsox

I'm in my sox, not in a box (yet)

I'm also female.. so therefore not a him

Just wouldn't want false information on here

Cheers

dolittle

this is all well and good
but whos gonna save Andy Gray?

Capt'n Midnight

jerry2623 wrote: »

Just listened to two CC memeber with Pat Kenny both uninterested in the practices that are standered in there main competitors and worried about the race to the bottom.

Race to the bottom ?

didn't someone tell them about Aer Lingus DOT Com - big circle thing painted on the side of the planes ?
or that they left the OneWorld Allience
or the whole print your own ticketthing where you can bypass the check-in
maybe they haven't found about about the privitisation yet

There was a time when stewardess was a good job, for the travel and the chance of snagging yourself a wealthy traveller. But that was a long time ago.

FlutterinBantam

All you'll get now is a pot bellied shave headed **** from Kilbarrack, cosying for an Indian dude with two taxis.

SIX PACK

KerranJast wrote: »

Seems to me that Aer Lingus is moving to a situation where their cabin crew's t&cs are similar to their competitors, which is sensible given how cutthroat the industry is now.

The biggest complaint I've heard from cabin crew is that the new rostering is "anti-family" and affects their work-life balance. Did they ever stop to thing that as a career, being a cabin crew member isn't very conducive to a normal home life and that's just the way it is? It's not fair but it's reality.

The industry has changed so much that its really only suited to younger staff who are happy to work long hours and aren't going to be in it for the long haul. That's the nature of most service jobs now.

Well Said . It was an exclusive glamorous Job back in the day, But lets be honest its not a difficult job, & im sure if EI started recruiting new staff offering €10 or €12 per Hr they would get 1000's of Irish Applicants,

Skadoosh

foxinsox wrote: »

Can I just say I'm foxinsox

I'm in my sox, not in a box (yet)

I'm also female.. so therefore not a him

Just wouldn't want false information on here

Cheers

Oops!

My bad

Osgoodisgood

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

All you'll get now is a pot bellied shave headed **** from Kilbarrack, cosying for an Indian dude with two taxis.

Hmmm. Really Flutt? :mad: You sure you want to go there?

FlutterinBantam

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

Hmmm. Really Flutt? :mad: You sure you want to go there?

On mature reflection-no!:eek:

Rodin

whycliff wrote: »

In what other job would someone not get a half hour break during a 9 hour day?

Doctor. 9 hours is just to start.
Cabin crew really need to quit their whinging

Diddler1977

Whats with the stint working off site for maybe 27 days?

soups05

when I worked for an american company it stated in our contract that we could be moved to anywhere in the company should the need arise. this clause was aimed at a different section of worker, mangement,engineers etc but had to be put in everyones contract.

from reading this thread I have to conclude that the AL cabin crew are living in a fantasy where they are the most important part of the airline (or the country from some attitudes). They have repeatedly lied about meal breaks,working conditions etc and at this point I find myself siding with mangement for the frist time in my life.

I have seen frist hand how unions can BS thier members into thinking they should get more and I have seen militant shop floor workers making demands that cannot and should not be met. Unions have a role to play sometimes but I belive they often go too far and this is a prime example.

TL:DR

short version= just sack the trolley dollies and replace them with men. we would do the job better anyway

/runs

Corsendonk

KerranJast wrote: »

Seems to me that Aer Lingus is moving to a situation where their cabin crew's t&cs are similar to their competitors, which is sensible given how cutthroat the industry is now.

The biggest complaint I've heard from cabin crew is that the new rostering is "anti-family" and affects their work-life balance. Did they ever stop to thing that as a career, being a cabin crew member isn't very conducive to a normal home life and that's just the way it is? It's not fair but it's reality.

The industry has changed so much that its really only suited to younger staff who are happy to work long hours and aren't going to be in it for the long haul. That's the nature of most service jobs now.

Another problem is that in "modern times" female cabincrew choose to stay on when having families so you have an inflexible workforce, with long service and higher wages than relatively new starters. What benefit is that to a company?

Diddler1977

Corsendonk wrote: »

Another problem is that in "modern times" female cabincrew choose to stay on when having families so you have an inflexible workforce, with long service and higher wages than relatively new starters. What benefit is that to a company?

Having a family is no excuse for expecting to be treated differently or for getting different condiitons because you have children.

Diddler1977

plasmaguy wrote: »

They also are only being paid for when the flight takes off. They could be two hours in the airport checking people in, waiting for a delayed flight to take off, etc, and they don't get paid.
.

I think this always has been the case - they are asked to "stand down" if the flight is delayed???????

Capt'n Midnight

Diddler1977 wrote: »

I think this always has been the case - they are asked to "stand down" if the flight is delayed???????

The transport industry has always had strange rules.

Crew of a ship get their wages stopped at the time it sinks. But then they (and any passengers) own the lifeboat they are in and entitled to split the proceeds if it is recovered and then sold off.

How has this dispute affected the share price, as that would give some indication of how the market thinks it affects the long term survivabilty of the company and hence the chance that ALL employees would loose their jobs

- if you multiply number of employees by the percentage share price drop at the end of the dispute would that give an indication of the number of jobs 'lost' in this dispute, because unless the company recovers (judge by whatever metric you want) the lost business then eventually jobs will have to be shed

Mervyn Crawford

Would Aer Lingus, and other airline and airport staf, consider setting up your own independent web page?
Aer Lingus workers are finding it very difficult to get into the open the real conditions and history of their struggle at work.

IMPACT are literally WORSE than useless. Their approach, like all trade unions is to accomodate the workforce to the requirements of management.

A trade union’s relationship with the employer is the key nexus as far as they are concerned. The workiers are the pawns in the dance between Aer Lingus and IMPACT – both airline and union regarding the workers as expendable and to be exploited.
If Aer Lingus workers set up their own web page, independent of IMPACT, then they are beginning to take their fate into their own hands.

Big Nasty

Mervyn Crawford wrote: »

Would Aer Lingus, and other airline and airport staf, consider setting up your own independent web page

I don't understand - a webpage for what, to do what?

Mervyn Crawford

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/jan2011/aerl-j31.shtml

Clare Daly has not been clamouring in defence of the Aer Lingus cabin crew.

Apart from the reasons cited in the linked article one should also consider Daly's particular cultivated consituency. The Socialist Party, before that Militant, always had what you might call a donkey jacket concept of the working class. A crude caricaturing of 'working people' which patronises and seeks out/encourages backwardness under the guise of 'militancy'.

Aer Lingus cabin crew don't fit this concept of course.

Mervyn Crawford

The cabin crew at Aer Lingus are being set up by IMPACT for defeat.

Conditions will be imposed and IMPACT leave the staff out to dry via their 'campaign' of work to rule.

Working people must organise. They must defend themselves.
To do that they must break with the trade unions who are in effect the agents of the employer inside the working class.

FreudianSlippers

MCMLXXV wrote: »

I don't understand - a webpage for what, to do what?

Complain about a bunch of useless shít all the time.

Osgoodisgood

Mervyn Crawford wrote: »

Working people must organise. They must defend themselves.
To do that they must break with the trade unions who are in effect the agents of the employer inside the working class.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah......................:P

Good one! For a minute there I thought you were, you know, serious.

Agents of the employer. Brilliant.

Big Nasty

Mervyn Crawford wrote: »

Would Aer Lingus, and other airline and airport staf, consider setting up your own independent web page?
Aer Lingus workers are finding it very difficult to get into the open the real conditions and history of their struggle at work.

IMPACT are literally WORSE than useless. Their approach, like all trade unions is to accomodate the workforce to the requirements of management.

A trade union’s relationship with the employer is the key nexus as far as they are concerned. The workiers are the pawns in the dance between Aer Lingus and IMPACT – both airline and union regarding the workers as expendable and to be exploited.
If Aer Lingus workers set up their own web page, independent of IMPACT, then they are beginning to take their fate into their own hands.

Mervyn Crawford wrote: »

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/jan2011/aerl-j31.shtml

Clare Daly has not been clamouring in defence of the Aer Lingus cabin crew.

Apart from the reasons cited in the linked article one should also consider Daly's particular cultivated consituency. The Socialist Party, before that Militant, always had what you might call a donkey jacket concept of the working class. A crude caricaturing of 'working people' which patronises and seeks out/encourages backwardness under the guise of 'militancy'.

Aer Lingus cabin crew don't fit this concept of course.

Mervyn Crawford wrote: »

The cabin crew at Aer Lingus are being set up by IMPACT for defeat.

Conditions will be imposed and IMPACT leave the staff out to dry via their 'campaign' of work to rule.

Working people must organise. They must defend themselves.
To do that they must break with the trade unions who are in effect the agents of the employer inside the working class.

Excuse my ignorance but what are you trying to say here?

I could well be mistaken but this sounds like waffle to me! :pac::pac::pac:

Mervyn Crawford

MCMLXX

Rather than engage in a dialogue where there is no meeting of minds I suggest you read the linked article in the post above. Concerning the role of unions in Aer Lingus.

It appears you have no agreement with this view? If so that is your choice. My choice is to discuss these issues publicly with those who wish to progress the struggle for socialism and equality.

RasTa

So you are saying the union is acting in the interest of AL? Hmmmmmm, in what way are they setting them up for defeat? Looks like they are trying to save jobs this time.

Aer Lingus workers are finding it very difficult to get into the open the real conditions and history of their struggle at work.

I laughed out loud at this statement, they are slaves!

Gunmonkey

Mervyn Crawford wrote: »

The cabin crew at Aer Lingus are being set up by IMPACT for defeat.

Conditions will be imposed and IMPACT leave the staff out to dry via their 'campaign' of work to rule.

Working people must organise. They must defend themselves.
To do that they must break with the trade unions who are in effect the agents of the employer inside the working class.

Mybe we should establish some new trade-unions to negotiate between the workers and the old trade-unions.

But they would then become puppets of the old trade-unions, so we would need a 3rd set of trade-unions, and so on and so on.

This could be a way to solve our mass employment problems, endless strings of trade-unions :rolleyes:

ilovebiccies

looks like its all been resolved. well fair play to all the cabin crew for standing up for themselves and sticking to their guns and winning in the end. you must all be very proud of yourselves. hahaha...just laughing here thinking of how "physically sick" mandy30 must feel seen as it bothered her that much in a previous post. enjoy your day mandy30!!

Osgoodisgood

ilovebiccies wrote: »

looks like its all been resolved

No, it's just on hold pending the LRC arbitration.

well fair play to all the cabin crew for standing up for themselves and sticking to their guns and winning in the end.

Nobody has "won" anything yet. Best keep the powder dry for now.

RasTa

ilovebiccies wrote: »

looks like its all been resolved. well fair play to all the cabin crew for standing up for themselves and sticking to their guns and winning in the end. you must all be very proud of yourselves. hahaha...just laughing here thinking of how "physically sick" mandy30 must feel seen as it bothered her that much in a previous post. enjoy your day mandy30!!

Looks like Aer Lingus won to me

Mr Grealy said that, while Impact agreed that members would work the 850 hours rosters, Aer Lingus had approved a number of quality-of- life issues surrounding meal breaks, rest periods and time off

ixoy

ilovebiccies wrote: »

looks like its all been resolved. well fair play to all the cabin crew for standing up for themselves and sticking to their guns and winning in the end. you must all be very proud of yourselves.

Really? How have they won - nothing is set in stone yet. The airline has also suffered losses having had to hire in planes from Ryanair lines, not to mention lost sales (I know I'm done with them). Lost revenue is hardly good for an airline that's desperately trying to cut costs...

hahaha...just laughing here thinking of how "physically sick" mandy30 must feel seen as it bothered her that much in a previous post. enjoy your day mandy30!!

Hilarious :rolleyes: Are you that dismissive of anyone who doesn't agree with the cabin crew's perspective that you openly mock them?

Killer Pigeon

Socialist Party nuts.

FreudianSlippers

Thread title change to: AerLingus Cabin Crew fail to get the best of both worlds!