Aerlingus Cabin Crew want the best of both worlds

FreudianSlippers

vbold wrote: »

good comeback.

Not a comeback. I don't really care about your problems - you have a union that went into negotiations on your behalf and they went to arbitration. That decision is binding and represents a compromise between the 2 parties.

The unions in this country are really fúcking the place up. They want their way all the time and refuse to compromise.

coylemj

vbold wrote: »

The increase in flight times can be done without the changes the company want to make to the rosters.

If you'd prefer you could fire them all, put 2000 people on the dole. hire a load of east Europeans who are willing to work any contract under any conditions and are burnt out in a couple of years. It would greatly benefit the economy...!

You mean do like Ryanair - reduce airfares so we can get more tourists to come to Ireland and revitalise the economy, brilliant idea!

vbold

coylemj wrote: »

I'm afraid that the people who work for Aer Lingus don't get much sympathy from the general population. For years they availed of high wages, protected jobs and working conditions and they lorded it over everyone who was unfortunate to live in the Swords/Malahide part of Dublin and had to put up with them bragging about the foreign holidays they were able to take for next to nothing. As if that wasn't bad enough, they had Roisin Shortall T.D. on a short leash to go on the tele when told to by SIPTU to fight the union's corner in any PR battle that needed fighting.

The maintenance guys in TEAM Aer Lingus really took the biscuit. This company was built up using Aer Lingus (i.e. taxpayers) money which built that huge hanger in Dublin Airport. Yet when the company was sold to SR Technics, Aer Lingus was so delighted to be rid of the workers that the money they received for the company was handed straight out to the workers in return for them surrendering the 'letter of comfort' each had received as a guarantee of a job back in Aer Lingus if the company was ever sold.

Then when SR Tecnics discovered that they could do the maintenance cheaper in Zurich, Switzerland of all places, they rightly walked away from the spoilt brats they had taken on in Dublin whereupon the unions blamed the government for the loss of their jobs.

That's a rant about SR Technics and AerLingus Management decisions, it really doesn't concern the arguments I've put up or the issue at hand. Either stick to the topic or have your rant somewhere else

coylemj

vbold wrote: »

That's a rant about SR Technics and AerLingus Management decisions, it really doesn't concern the arguments I've put up or the issue at hand. Either stick to the topic or have your rant somewhere else

Excuse me, this is the after hours forum and you are not a mod so come down off your high horse.

You're not even the original poster, get lost!

mkdon05

I'm not saying anything for or against the cabin crew, but those changes would have quite an impact on anyone's routine, and only in a negative way. I think a lot of people are not considering that the cc are people with lives outside of work too!

FreudianSlippers

mkdon05 wrote: »

I'm not saying anything for or against the cabin crew, but those changes would have quite an impact on anyone's routine, and only in a negative way. I think a lot of people are not considering that the cc are people with lives outside of work too!

Of course they are, but when a decision is made in arbitration it should be followed and the unions should not be attempting to usurp this.

Gunsfortoys

OisinT wrote: »

Not a comeback. I don't really care about your problems - you have a union that went into negotiations on your behalf and they went to arbitration. That decision is binding and represents a compromise between the 2 parties.

The unions in this country are really fúcking the place up. They want their way all the time and refuse to compromise.

Fully agree with this, it is ridiculous in a country were people would kill for a job like this, there are arrogant people such as this wanting everything for not much really.

Ryanair are a perfect example of how work should be rewarded with incentives. So many people in this country have such an arrogant sense of entitlement. :mad:

vbold

coylemj wrote: »

Excuse me, this is the after hours forum and you are not a mod so come down off your high horse.

You're not even the original poster, get lost!

It was still an irrelevant rant.. considering its AH, here's a picture of a cat
http://cucinatestarossa.blogs.com/weblog/images/cat.jpg

cornbb

vbold wrote: »

If you'd prefer you could fire them all, put 2000 people on the dole. hire a load of east Europeans who are willing to work any contract under any conditions and are burnt out in a couple of years. It would greatly benefit the economy...!

Hang on, who said anything about that? I pointed out that Aer Lingus needs its staff to give it a break if it wants to be competitive. If it can't be competitive then everyone will be out of a job, Irish or Eastern European or whoever.

I'll say it again: if Aer Lingus management, staff and unions can all start pulling in the same direction, then everyone wins - especially the employees. In this case its pretty obvious to me that the unions are the ones who are not working for the common good.

vbold

cornbb wrote: »

Hang on, who said anything about that? I pointed out that Aer Lingus needs its staff to give it a break if it wants to be competitive. If it can't be competitive then everyone will be out of a job, Irish or Eastern European or whoever./QUOTE]

wooo there fella, the staff have taken a pay cut, increased working hours, reduced many terms and conditions like days off bu8t you think they should also agree to the implementation of the conditions of the new rosters?

cornbb wrote: »

I'll say it again: if Aer Lingus management, staff and unions can all start pulling in the same direction, then everyone wins - especially the employees. In this case its pretty obvious to me that the unions are the ones who are not working for the common good.

Really how ? They will work the extra hours, have taken the pay cuts, re-negotiated their terms and conditions but they can't agree to their employer having the unilateral right to have them work away from home for 26 days a month or request 1 weekend off every 2 months ?

There have to be give and take and tbh those conditions are all take

Orando Broom

vbold wrote: »

The increase in flight times can be done without the changes the company want to make to the rosters.

If you'd prefer you could fire them all, put 2000 people on the dole. hire a load of east Europeans who are willing to work any contract under any conditions and are burnt out in a couple of years. It would greatly benefit the economy...!

There are plenty of Irish that would work under the conditions on offer.

Don't start with this 'took er jerbs' crap. Eastern Europeans have contributed massively to this economy when times were good.

I see tacit racism is still alive and well in some sectors.

vbold

Orando Broom wrote: »

There are plenty of Irish that would work under the conditions on offer.

Don't start with this 'took er jerbs' crap. Eastern Europeans have contributed massively to this economy when times were good.

I see tacit racism is still alive and well in some sectors.

I'll take back any inference that the comment was related to eastern europeans in general, it was a comparison to another airline who adopts that model and I was making the comparison to that airline. The point still stands though that you are undermining anybody with a contract or job if you say that you should be glad of it and work it under any conditions or someone else will take it.

novarock

What vbold needs to realise is that no matter the outcome of this, because the small minority of workers are causing so much hardship to a large number of people, they will never get sympathy from the public at all.

All that the union's bully tactics are accomplishing is the rest of the countries population, that are trying to get on with it, are listening to more bad news every day.

AfterDusk

vbold wrote: »

I'll take back any inference that the comment was related to eastern europeans in general, it was a comparison to another airline who adopts that model and I was making the comparison to that airline. The point still stands though that you are undermining anybody with a contract or job if you say that you should be glad of it and work it under any conditions or someone else will take it.

What a disgraceful attitude! That 'other airline' (let's not beat around the bush, we know you're talking about FR) comprises of a very different workforce than you seem to think. The order of nationality by quantity of employees in 'that airline' are No 1. Irish, 2. English, 3. Italian and 4. Spanish. Don't go throwing around statements that you made up in your head and can't back up!

coylemj

If they want jobs that fit into their lifestyle tell them to go down to their local Tesco or Dunnes. This is typical trades union attitude, the job needs to be tailored to suit the employees instead of the requirements of the customer.

On multiple occasions in the past Aer Lingus opened new routes only to have to close them down because of rigid trades unions attitudes to rosters and breaks.

novarock

coylemj wrote: »

If they want jobs that fit into their lifestyle tell them to go down to their local Tesco or Dunnes. This is typical trades union attitude, the job needs to be tailored to suit the employees instead of the requirements of the customer.

On multiple occasions in the past Aer Lingus opened new routes only to have to close them down because of rigid trades unions attitudes to rosters and breaks.

Further to the point that semi state unionised dinosaurs like ESB, Eircom, Aerlingus etc.. need to be wound down and save the taxpayer paying for past mistakes.

RasTa

vbold wrote: »

I'll take back any inference that the comment was related to eastern europeans in general, it was a comparison to another airline who adopts that model and I was making the comparison to that airline. The point still stands though that you are undermining anybody with a contract or job if you say that you should be glad of it and work it under any conditions or someone else will take it.

Hmm stop talking rubbish in fairness. I fly about 30 times a year(both ways) and these "Eastern Europeans" you reffer to, just say Ryanair are fine. I swear to god the self importance you and BA have towards your roles is astonishing. Hopefully they all are sacked who refuse to work and hire said 'Eastern Europeans' will still be paying tax in Ireland if Aer Lingus goes with them.

LittleBook

vbold wrote: »

request 1 weekend off every 2 months?

The weekend is the busiest time for an airline I would have thought, the only weekends a lot of people have off (my partner included) in many industries are those they take as part of annual leave.

vbold wrote: »

they can't agree to their employer having the unilateral right to have them work away from home for 26 days a month

As dramatic as this sounds, it's not actually on any of the rosters which have been issued. Until it actually happens to somebody, I reserve my sympathies.

vbold wrote: »

The point still stands though that you are undermining anybody with a contract or job if you say that you should be glad of it and work it under any conditions or someone else will take it.

My issue with this point is more to do with people who've chosen a career, well aware of the impact it will have on their family life and then complain that it has an impact on their family life.

I would have been interested in a similar career but was not prepared to make the compromise it would have demanded, so I do a job that suits my "family responsibilities".

I'm sorry but I can't (yet?) see what is so bad about these working conditions or how vitally different they are to the current rosters that warrant destroying the airline.

thebullkf

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

:rolleyes:

They are hardly going to say they are in the wrong are they?

Strikes me a strange that the country is in an unemployment crisis and the only unrest of any consequence is Aer Lingus. As has been the case for the last decade.

Company are dead right to say enough of the endless talks and negotiations.

Do the job or get the fcuk out and let others do it.

There would be plenty of takers.

thats the crtux of the matter..... its a race to the bottom.

your attitude stinks of ryanair tbh...

care to back up your statements?

thebullkf

syklops wrote: »

Utter rubbish.

Since when do our unions have no power? Flights are being cancelled across Europe because 4 cabin crew members had a tantrum. Sounds pretty powerful to me.

Crap wages? Who is on crap wages? AL cabin crew? I think you will find they are on pretty decent wages, in fairly secure jobs, with a decent pension, all negotiated by their 'powerless' union.


I don't understand your Ryanair comments can you explain further?

jealousy is the reason people are slating Aer Lingus, among other thingsl.

FlutterinBantam

thebullkf wrote: »

thats the crtux of the matter..... its a race to the bottom.

your attitude stinks of ryanair tbh...

care to back up your statements?

Try to make a bit of sense there poster.

thebullkf

whycliff wrote: »

Don't comment on something you know nothing about. The 850 hours is 850 hours flight time, not actual working hours. So its basically from the time the aircraft takes of until it lands and reaches its gate.

Having worked in Aerlingus in the past i know how it goes.

As Cabin Crew you check in an hour before a flight, and 2 hours before an Transatlantic flight.

Cabin Crew work unsocialble hours 7 days a week, bank holiday, easter, christmas all year round.

Its not all the glitz and glam that some people would make it out to be.

You fly to a destination, turn around and come back.

If you do happen to do a Transatlantic flight, You fly out for up to a 14 hour duty, and then stay one night away from your family/friends and fly back the following day through the night Irish Time.
You get home and your not worth a sh*t for 2 days because your body clock is all over the place.

There are many different aspects to this dispute. One of which is Aerlingus do not wish to grant a half hour meal break during a duty. A duty could last anything up to a 10 hour day. In what other job would someone not get a half hour break during a 9 hour day?

In saying that, there are plenty of people in Aerlingus that should be glad they have a job.

I'm neither siding with the Union or the Company, but people should know all the facts.

excellent post..... no thanks whores about either... makes one wonder...

thebullkf

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Try to make a bit of sense there poster.

so you don't care to back up your statements?

thought so.

FlutterinBantam

thebullkf wrote: »

so you don't care to back up your statements?

thought so.

The sun was out today and it was cold.

Do you want me to back that up.:rolleyes:

RasTa

thebullkf wrote: »

so you don't care to back up your statements?

thought so.

He is right you aren't making any sense. You asked him to back up his statement and bolded that part about there being plenty of takers.

You are aware of the figures on the live register yes?

the_syco

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Cabin crew complain about working 11 hour shifts but only 4 of those hours are actually flight time.

Thought the concord no longer flew on the Dublin to New York flight?

cornbb

thebullkf wrote: »

thats the crtux of the matter..... its a race to the bottom.

your attitude stinks of ryanair tbh...

This sort of attitude is exactly the problem with Aer Lingus. And you what? Its only their problem, not anybody else's. They need to realise that their work is not intended to lead to the sort of glamorous lifestyle it meant in the 1950s, they need to realise that Ryanair (who they seem to love looking down their noses at) are hammering them in the marketplace.

Nobody much *likes* Ryanair, but you've got to hand it to them that they run a tight ship. Everything I see about them certainly tells me that their staff works hard, that is fundamentally important to the success of the company. And when the company does well, the employees do well. This is a fundamental law of the free market.

If the cabin crew and unions can't play ball, Aer Lingus will either go under or Michael O'Leary will step in. I wonder whether Aer Lingus cabin crew would prefer to accept new rosters or prefer to work for Michael O'Leary?

kevinmcc

So how much does a DUB based crew member receive in total including salary, hourly pay, away from home pay allowances etc on average? A lot I'd imagine for the times that are in.

Let's not forget EI have not been making a profit recently, would they rather EI went bust and have no jobs?

Chinasea

Crazy how a thread about Aerlingus who have been robbin us blind since the day they began still brings out the Ryanair bashers in their droves.

coylemj

Chinasea wrote: »

Crazy how a thread about Aerlingus who have been robbin us blind since the day they began still brings out the Ryanair bashers in their droves.

Steady on there, no off-thread irrelevant 'rants' or the self-appointed one-thread mod Vbold will be down on you.

FlutterinBantam

coylemj wrote: »

Steady on there, no off-thread irrelevant 'rants' or the self-appointed one-thread mod Vbold will be down on you.

A one hit wonder from the wilderness of Collinstown:D

thebullkf

david75 wrote: »

It's a bit selfish to have children and have that kind of job anyways. Some mothers..suppose that explains the whole 'want our cake and eat it' mentality they have.

so you've been wrong twice,you've misquoted after being informed of your error's,and now you result to slagging off mothers....

Trollers gonna troll:rolleyes:

and to have a MOD thanks whore you for it is even worse. {ah or not)

thebullkf

coylemj wrote: »

You mean do like Ryanair - reduce airfares so we can get more tourists to come to Ireland and revitalise the economy, brilliant idea!

Ryanair....revitalisingthe economy.....:eek:


I wouldn't fly (again),or work for ryanair. shower of cúnts.

each and every time the service from AL is spot on.

never had a bad experience.

Isn't there a Ryanair thread in consumer issues here
Is there an aer lingus one?

tbh i'm sick of the begrudgery on this thread,same as civil servant bashing..10 years ago nobody wanted to work for the CS..now its "lemme do their job.."

if AL was so cushy why hasn't everyone on this thread joined them????


Envy is a terrible thing.

thebullkf

coylemj wrote: »

Excuse me, this is the after hours forum and you are not a mod so come down off your high horse.

You're not even the original poster, get lost!

vbolds right though.

maybe you should get lost?

thebullkf

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

Fully agree with this, it is ridiculous in a country were people would kill for a job like this, there are arrogant people such as this wanting everything for not much really.

Ryanair are a perfect example of how work should be rewarded with incentives. profit making So many people in this country have such an arrogant sense of entitlement. :mad:

Kersh

Isn't there a Ryanair thread in consumer issues here
Is there an aer lingus one?

Thats cos no one can fly with them to have a complaint . . the planes are on the ground more than they are in the air. :P

thebullkf

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

The sun was out today and it was cold.

Do you want me to back that up.:rolleyes:

i too have the use of :rolleyes: function.

so thats a no then-just in having a dig....

fair play to you :rolleyes:

thebullkf

RasTa wrote: »

He is right you aren't making any sense. You asked him to back up his statement and bolded that part about there being plenty of takers.

You are aware of the figures on the live register yes?

i am. i'm on it.:(

and i don't begrudge them anything. i'd love their job, employers are raping this country now. its a case of how little you're willing to work for.

Unions have had it handy,no question .

AfterDusk

thebullkf wrote: »

Ryanair....revitalisingthe economy.....:eek:


I wouldn't fly (again),or work for ryanair. shower of cúnts.

each and every time the service from AL is spot on.

never had a bad experience.

Isn't there a Ryanair thread in consumer issues here
Is there an aer lingus one?

tbh i'm sick of the begrudgery on this thread,same as civil servant bashing..10 years ago nobody wanted to work for the CS..now its "lemme do their job.."

Trolling at it's finest.......

thebullkf

cornbb wrote: »

This sort of attitude is exactly the problem with Aer Lingus. And you what? Its only their problem, not anybody else's. They need to realise that their work is not intended to lead to the sort of glamorous lifestyle it meant in the 1950s, they need to realise that Ryanair (who they seem to love looking down their noses at) are hammering them in the marketplace.

who said anything about glamour?...eh it was you..

Nobody much *likes* Ryanair, but you've got to hand it to them that they run a tight ship. Everything I see about them certainly tells me that their staff works hard, that is fundamentally important to the success of the company. And when the company does well, the employees do well. This is a fundamental law of the free market.

the staff work hard,for less pay,worse conditions and additional costs...every other day there's complaints about ryanair. Its a fundamental law of michael o'leary of fleecing/charging where he sees fit.

If the cabin crew and unions can't play ball, Aer Lingus will either go under or Michael O'Leary will step in. I wonder whether Aer Lingus cabin crew would prefer to accept new rosters or prefer to work for Michael O'Leary?

thats a no brainer- and a terrible connundrum to have to face.

i personallly wouldn't work for o'leary, i worked in his building in the airportand saw first hand the environment staff were working in .

lets just say it wasn't nice.

thebullkf

neil2304 wrote: »

Trolling at it's finest.......

how?

explain please? {instead of thanking every anti AL post}

kevinmcc

thebullkf wrote: »

if AL was so cushy why hasn't everyone on this thread joined them????

You obviously don't know how long ago it is since EI recruited crew. Find me where to apply and I will.

thebullkf

kevinmcc wrote: »

thebullkf wrote: »

if AL was so cushy why hasn't everyone on this thread joined them???? /

You obviously don't know how long ago it is since EI recruited crew. Find me where to apply and I will.

enlighten me so...

AfterDusk

thebullkf wrote: »

how?

explain please? {instead of thanking every anti AL post}

What you're ranting about Ryanair has absolutely nothing to do with the thread.

I'm not thanking posts because they're anti AL, I'm thanking posts because I agree. That would be the point of the thanks function :rolleyes:

thebullkf

neil2304 wrote: »

What you're ranting about Ryanair has absolutely nothing to do with the thread.

I'm not thanking posts because they're anti AL, I'm thanking posts because I agree. That would be the point of the thanks function :rolleyes:

i replied in kind to a post referencing Ryanair....thought you would've known that,had you bothered to read 'em instead of accusing me of trolling.

kevinmcc

thebullkf wrote: »

enlighten me so...

Well I don't have the exact date but it hasn't been anytime in the past few years for DUB..only LGW and BFS

thebullkf

kevinmcc wrote: »

Well I don't have the exact date but it hasn't been anytime in the past few years for DUB..only LGW and BFS

you obviously weren't looking too hard.

kevinmcc

And here are the high salaries Aer Lingus crew were on in 2005, i doubt it's any lower now:

Scale as of 2005 has been increased in line with national pay deal also apx €5,000 in comission on bar/duty free sales and check in credits also tax free allowance of up to €400 per month depending on routes.

All in €


1st LSI 25 years service.
2nd LSI 30 years service.
3rd LSI 33 years service.
4th LSI 35 years service.

Scales at 1st January 2005

Cabin Crew Member

20,093.11 - 21,141.92 - 22,190.72 - 23,239.54 - 24,288.38 - 25,337.20 - 26,386.01 - 27,434.82 - 28,483.63 - 29,532.44 - 30,581.26 - 31,630.10 - 32,678.92 - 33,727.71 - 34,776.541 - 35,549.342 - 36,322.153 - 37,094.964 - 38,640.60 (LSI max)

Cabin Crew Senior

24,961.81 - 26,049.27 - 27,136.74 - 28,224.18 - 29,311.66 - 30,399.11 - 31,486.56 - 32,574.02 - 33,661.46 - 34,748.91 - 35,836.38 - 36,923.85 - 38,011.31 - 39,098.75 - 40,186.211 - 40,959.032 - 41,731.843 - 42,504.654 - 44,050.28 (LSI max)

Cabin Crew Supervisor

27,821.21 - 28,925.25 - 30,029.25 - 31,133.27 - 32,237.27 - 33,341.31 - 34,445.31 - 35,549.34 - 36,653.37 - 37,757.36 - 38,861.41 - 39,965.40 - 41,069.43 - 42,173.42 - 43,277.461 - 44,050.282 - 44,823.093 - 45,595.884 - 47,141.52 (LSI max)

Cabin Crew Cabin Manager

29,366.84 - 30,470.88 - 31,574.88 - 32,678.92 - 33,782.89 - 34,886.93 - 35,990.93 - 37,094.96 - 38,199.00 - 39,303.00 - 40,407.04 - 41,511.03 - 42,615.07 - 43,719.06 - 44,823.091 - 45,595.882 - 46,368.713 - 47,141.524 - 48,687.13 (LSI max)

kevinmcc

thebullkf wrote: »

you obviously weren't looking too hard.

OK well you enlighten us then, seeing as you seem to know. What happened, did you get too cold outside HQ so decided to come on boards.ie tonight?

thebullkf

kevinmcc wrote: »

And here are the high salaries Aer Lingus crew were on in 2005, i doubt it's any lower now:

Scale as of 2005 has been increased in line with national pay deal also apx €5,000 in comission on bar/duty free sales and check in credits also tax free allowance of up to €400 per month depending on routes.

All in €


1st LSI 25 years service.
2nd LSI 30 years service.
3rd LSI 33 years service.
4th LSI 35 years service.

Scales at 1st January 2005

Cabin Crew Member

20,093.11 - 21,141.92 - 22,190.72 - 23,239.54 - 24,288.38 - 25,337.20 - 26,386.01 - 27,434.82 - 28,483.63 - 29,532.44 - 30,581.26 - 31,630.10 - 32,678.92 - 33,727.71 - 34,776.541 - 35,549.342 - 36,322.153 - 37,094.964 - 38,640.60 (LSI max)

Cabin Crew Senior

24,961.81 - 26,049.27 - 27,136.74 - 28,224.18 - 29,311.66 - 30,399.11 - 31,486.56 - 32,574.02 - 33,661.46 - 34,748.91 - 35,836.38 - 36,923.85 - 38,011.31 - 39,098.75 - 40,186.211 - 40,959.032 - 41,731.843 - 42,504.654 - 44,050.28 (LSI max)

Cabin Crew Supervisor

27,821.21 - 28,925.25 - 30,029.25 - 31,133.27 - 32,237.27 - 33,341.31 - 34,445.31 - 35,549.34 - 36,653.37 - 37,757.36 - 38,861.41 - 39,965.40 - 41,069.43 - 42,173.42 - 43,277.461 - 44,050.282 - 44,823.093 - 45,595.884 - 47,141.52 (LSI max)

Cabin Crew Cabin Manager

29,366.84 - 30,470.88 - 31,574.88 - 32,678.92 - 33,782.89 - 34,886.93 - 35,990.93 - 37,094.96 - 38,199.00 - 39,303.00 - 40,407.04 - 41,511.03 - 42,615.07 - 43,719.06 - 44,823.091 - 45,595.882 - 46,368.713 - 47,141.524 - 48,687.13 (LSI max)

so the maximum wage is 48,687 after 35 yrs service in CC of AL..?

is that right?

an increase of what?....500e a year service??...

whats the problem here?