Books and career advice

OVERTONE69

Ok, Im a third year cs student getting my degree september of this year.
I may go on to fourht year but i'd like to get a years experience in between.

my questions a 2 part i guess. I notice all these jobs advetised on boards for recent graduates with 2 years experience. asides from wanting to rid the earth of the people who wrote that, i have no option but to give myself a headstart out of college. Its my understanding that the software industry isnt to good in ireland in terms of its support structre (this is according to the only developer i know outside college) but that still doesnt mean i want to try.

I know i need 2 things to make it in this world. I need to know one or 2 languages inside and out.

I need some experience with said languages.

SO: my birthdays coming up, and as lame as i am, i asked my girlfriend to get me some programing books. i've taken a look at the thread for books but i'm looking for a specific kind. one that will put me ahead of the pack and into a job with an enjoyable language. (im an underachiever if anything, at this rate ill be lucky if i get a 2.1) experience is my only other option.


I know the best way to gain experience is to get myself involved in a project, open source. but what kind of project should i aim for? and again, what language?

So in short, i'd love some recomendations on books you think are great for first time jobs,

and some recomendations for projects, sources, internships or other experience alternatives.


NOTES:

so far i know

(quite well)
Java
c++

(Not so well) ive only dabbled in
SQL
PHP#
HTML
CSS
C#/ asp.net

I want to be a games developer someday if possible, so software development is the one i want to be. not web developer.


Thanks in advance guys, really high ambition at the moment.

fasty

Game Developer? Game Engine Architecture by Jason Gregory. It's pretty great and he works for Naughty Dog of Uncharted fame.

If you want to get into game dev, make some demos, make a game. Finished projects are what's required.

I'm trying to get into game development myself having worked on financial stuff for 5 years and that's what I'm doing based on the advice of people on this forum and elsewhere.

OVERTONE69

fasty wrote: »

Game Developer? Game Engine Architecture by Jason Gregory. It's pretty great and he works for Naughty Dog of Uncharted fame.

If you want to get into game dev, make some demos, make a game. Finished projects are what's required.

I'm trying to get into game development myself having worked on financial stuff for 5 years and that's what I'm doing based on the advice of people on this forum and elsewhere.

Nice one. but game development is miles down the road. juyst getting into a job is the key thing i want to do here. It was just something i wanted to make everyone aware.


but if you have any projects going later in the year (summer) i'd gladly chip in


making a game for my 3rd year project btw.

fergalr

OVERTONE69 wrote: »

Nice one. but game development is miles down the road.

Why?

If you are driven, and willing to work hard, there shouldn't be any reason you couldn't get a game dev job out of college - or shortly afterwards, at least.
Just hone you skills constantly, so you are as good a programmer as you can be, make sure to learn your fundamentals, read lots, and make games outside your course.
Theres lots of opportunity to break into the industry that wasn't there before, with flash games, facebook apps, iphone games etc.
Thats if you want to be a games programmer, the career has a many bad points.

OVERTONE69 wrote: »

juyst getting into a job is the key thing i want to do here. It was just something i wanted to make everyone aware.

You sure you want to work a job for a year between 3rd and 4th year?
If you are willing to work hard, in your spare time (eg develop and ship iphone games, during summers, and in evenings and/or get summer work for a startup), then you'd probably be in a better position after degree + MSc, than degree+1years work.

Thats if you are determined, and sure thats the path you want to follow, etc.

but if you have any projects going later in the year (summer) i'd gladly chip in

making a game for my 3rd year project btw.

Books like 'The Pragmatic Programmer' are a good read for someone who is an intermediate programmer.

fasty

If you want to be a game developer, why not just go for it? I made the mistake of waiting and it's taken a lot of time and effort to get up to speed on making games.

OVERTONE69

fergalr wrote: »

Why?

If you are driven, and willing to work hard, there shouldn't be any reason you couldn't get a game dev job out of college - or shortly afterwards, at least.
Just hone you skills constantly, so you are as good a programmer as you can be, make sure to learn your fundamentals, read lots, and make games outside your course.
Theres lots of opportunity to break into the industry that wasn't there before, with flash games, facebook apps, iphone games etc.
Thats if you want to be a games programmer, the career has a many bad points.

I suppose because im nto really sure if games is what i want. I like games, but i dont know if games development is for me. ive never made one. i should have a better idea after this course.

Making games outside of course is gonna be hard. up until recently i had been working a 35 hour week and had no time to do antyhing. its recently been cut to 20 but im not sure how long it'll last.

I'd be happy enough paying bills with day job, and making games as a hobby.
I highly doubt theres many game jobs straight out of college anyway. Im really just looking for advice on how to get into the softyware industry. best way to get in the door, so i can make some money, keep a roof over my head (im renting) and my girlffirned happy.

And if i get to make games in the end,. then so much the better. But i think there are more jobs in standard development than games at the moment so thats my best option.

You sure you want to work a job for a year between 3rd and 4th year?
If you are willing to work hard, in your spare time (eg develop and ship iphone games, during summers, and in evenings and/or get summer work for a startup), then you'd probably be in a better position after degree + MSc, than degree+1years work.

Thats if you are determined, and sure thats the path you want to follow, etc.

Its actually a 2 part. one is i want to save some money so i can go through fourth year with no part time job supporting, that way i come out with a higher degree.

I can work as hard as i want outside of college, with the sheer lack of time i have, im having trouble keeping my grades steady, let alone make an app to myself. Im doin the best i can at the moment so a year out for industry experience seemed the best option. do you think i should just make a run through?

The other is that a year in between will put me ahead of the pack straight out of graduation. And ill know a bit more for when my studies start up.

Ive considered going straight into 4th yr, but if i come out of it with a brutal score degree then it defeats the purpose.

Theres absolutely no way i can get a msc this soon. I cant keep working part time and going to college. Not trying to sound lazy but im truly sick of working outside my desired field. I'm looking to get into industry as quick as i can. Even coding in a dead cubicle is better than serving another chicken or taking another angry idiot on tech support (ok the tech support isnt that bad but its still not my lifes ambition). i dont think my tech job will last much longer anyway.

Books like 'The Pragmatic Programmer' are a good read for someone who is an intermediate programmer.

Awesome. I wouldnt call myself intermiediate, but im not a sure beginner either. ill give it a look THANKS!




Last note to take away. I want to code. i want to be the best damn software developer i can be and thats not gonna happen anytime soon at this rate. i want to get real world experience and i want to be good enough at what i do to survive. Ill read as many books i can, and code as much i can but ill always be afraid that it wont be enough.

That first job, the first baby step, its gonna be the hardest. I dont want to step through the door into software, i want to blow the thing of its hinges. At the rate the economy is going, and the what ridicluous hoops hr expect from a candidate, thats all i can do to get myself a job.

OVERTONE69

fasty wrote: »

If you want to be a game developer, why not just go for it? I made the mistake of waiting and it's taken a lot of time and effort to get up to speed on making games.

I guess theres no easy answer., Ive never coded a game (yet). I dont know if its for me yet. There also seems to be the matter of getting into the industry. it seems to be easier with boring application code than games.

Id be happy enough just to get a sdev position. dont care for glamour.

One final note is that games are my hobby, if they become my job, they might become a chore. And if i have that doubt so early, then maybe games isnt for me.

as i said, i just dont know yet. first step, get a job coding whatever. Need skillz to pull that off. so where i get those skills is the question.

p.s. im sorry if it seems i just shot your opinion out of the air, i really appreciate the feedback, im actively refreshing this page to see if u or others respond.

fergalr

OVERTONE69 wrote: »

I suppose because im nto really sure if games is what i want. I like games, but i dont know if games development is for me. ive never made one. i should have a better idea after this course.

Making games outside of course is gonna be hard. up until recently i had been working a 35 hour week and had no time to do antyhing. its recently been cut to 20 but im not sure how long it'll last.

The economy overall has taken a pasting, and there's lots of people looking for work, sadly - but software is one of the few fields in Ireland its still possible to find jobs in. If you are a good coder, there is work.

I wasn't sure what your situation was, when I first posted, so I wrote with certain assumptions. If you are working a 35 hour week, in addition to your course, then you are going to have a tough time making things extra-curricularly - thats fair enough.

Having a job complimentary to your primary focus is good, if you can get it. So, rather than work as a barman, try work as a QA software tester; or work in IT support over a retail job, etc. Jobs that will show up on the CV as a progression towards a software development job, and show that you know your way around computers, and technology, would be much better than unrelated ones, in general.

OVERTONE69 wrote: »

I'd be happy enough paying bills with day job, and making games as a hobby.
I highly doubt theres many game jobs straight out of college anyway.

There are some, especially if you've learned how to make games part time, and/or if you are a very good programmer.

OVERTONE69 wrote: »

Im really just looking for advice on how to get into the softyware industry. best way to get in the door, so i can make some money, keep a roof over my head (im renting) and my girlffirned happy.

There are definitely more jobs in the general software industry - its just a bigger space than games, especially in Ireland. Its also, in general, considered less aspirational than game development by software developers, which affects supply/demand.


As soon as you can, try and get a software job where you will be programming, if you can at all, and prioritise a job/company where you'll get to learn a lot.
It sounds simple, but it can be hard to take a less well paying job, with better learning opportunities - but its often the right thing to do in software, where skills and knowledge, and continuing development, mean so much.

OVERTONE69 wrote: »

And if i get to make games in the end,. then so much the better. But i think there are more jobs in standard development than games at the moment so thats my best option.

Its actually a 2 part. one is i want to save some money so i can go through fourth year with no part time job supporting, that way i come out with a higher degree.

I can work as hard as i want outside of college, with the sheer lack of time i have, im having trouble keeping my grades steady, let alone make an app to myself. Im doin the best i can at the moment so a year out for industry experience seemed the best option. do you think i should just make a run through?

The other is that a year in between will put me ahead of the pack straight out of graduation. And ill know a bit more for when my studies start up.

Ive considered going straight into 4th yr, but if i come out of it with a brutal score degree then it defeats the purpose.

I don't know what institution you are in. If you are in a reasonable university, where the degree will be a career selling point for a few years, then its a absolutely worth trying to set things up so you get a 2.1 in your degree - in case you wanted to do further study later, or because some employers set 2.1 as a minimum standard (not that this necessarily makes sense, but it does happen.)

If you are in a less regarded institution, then a good degree - while always worth having if you can - is maybe less important because you are going to be trying to sell yourself on skills and experience anyway, even early on your career.

In general, its more important to learn a lot, than to get a good degree - but both help, to keep your options open later.

OVERTONE69 wrote: »

Theres absolutely no way i can get a msc this soon. I cant keep working part time and going to college. Not trying to sound lazy but im truly sick of working outside my desired field. I'm looking to get into industry as quick as i can. Even coding in a dead cubicle is better than serving another chicken or taking another angry idiot on tech support (ok the tech support isnt that bad but its still not my lifes ambition). i dont think my tech job will last much longer anyway.

You are quite right here - if you have to work urgently, its good to get into jobs where you are learning skills that work towards your overall goal, as soon as possible.

OVERTONE69 wrote: »

Awesome. I wouldnt call myself intermiediate, but im not a sure beginner either. ill give it a look THANKS!

Its a good book, it contains a lot of information, usually learned from experience, on whats required to actually develop software. A lot of useful common sense things, that aren't typically mentioned in 3rd level education are in there.

OVERTONE69 wrote: »

Last note to take away. I want to code. i want to be the best damn software developer i can be and thats not gonna happen anytime soon at this rate. i want to get real world experience and i want to be good enough at what i do to survive. Ill read as many books i can, and code as much i can but ill always be afraid that it wont be enough.

That sounds like a great attitude to have.
You sound hungry. Honestly, that's the best way to be.

I don't know how to be the 'best damn software developer' you can be - I think that takes years and years. I'm not sure you ever become the best you can be, I think its just a constant learning process. Many people stop learning when they find a comfortable job. Its important to try keep learning, and stay hungry, but its not always easy or practical to do so.

Try get yourself into a position where you can maximise your learning as soon as possible.
If you find work for the year out, scrimp and save so you can focus on your studies in 4th year - years down the line, it should be worth it.


If you haven't done programming competitions (like on topcoder.com) you should have a look at them. They are a great tool to sharpen your fundamental ability to program algorithmically. They also help you get a good idea where you are at, and what you need to work on, in that area.

Now, a lot of software developers do work where they don't need much algorithmic programming ability, and thats fine. But its a core skill, and a good thing to do when you are learning to program - its also something they look for a lot in interviews of companies like hardcore games companies.

OVERTONE69 wrote: »

That first job, the first baby step, its gonna be the hardest. I dont want to step through the door into software, i want to blow the thing of its hinges. At the rate the economy is going, and the what ridicluous hoops hr expect from a candidate, thats all i can do to get myself a job.

It could be worse - there are many careers out there where its impossible to get started - things like civil engineering are a nightmare at the moment, and I've met several people trying to break in to it, and theres no real path in.
At least its still possible to break in to software development, you can develop your skills, build apps, show people what you can do, etc.


You sound like you are on a good track, anyway. Make sure to learn your fundamentals, read a good book on algorithms (maybe Sedgewick, or even 'introduction to algorithms' by cormen et al if you want a realllly loong read), program lots, read books on crafting code like 'Code Complete' by McConnell and 'The Pragmatic Programmer'.

I'm reluctant to give advice on whether to go straight through college or take a year out - only you know the subtleties of your situation.

Definitely finish your degree.

And definitely try and arrange things so you aren't just attending your course, doing the minimum it takes to pass exams.
Its really crucial you understand the material covered, and that you have the time and opportunity to take in and read around the material you are covering. Now, this isn't the case for all subjects and material - and course will have a certain amount of irrelevant or poor content, which you have to try and steer around. But don't just pass the exams - take in and understand the important material.

Your attitude sounds great, you seem to really want to learn and get good at what you do. I believe you can't keep someone like that down. Best of luck with whatever you decide.