All Irish public schools to be Gaelscoils

Marcus.Aurelius

scientific1982 wrote: »

Yes really. Enlightened would be one word. If I wanted to be snobby about it, I would have said cultured.

I think you covered both.

Tribal nonsense the lot of it, IMO.

scotty_irish

MultiUmm wrote: »

Was this because they'd find it difficult to pick up Irish after other children in the class already had some knowledge of it from speaking it at home? If not that just sounds extremely elitist, although I'm assuming it's for reasons of practicality.

A 4 year old child will pick a language up quickly and effortlessly when immersed. No issue with not speaking it at home. Sounding elitist to me, or looking for an excuse to reject people if there's massive demand.

GizAGoOfYerGee

Earthhorse wrote: »

I'd like to see Irish removed from the Constitution as one of our primary languages. I have no problem with people wanting to preserve, learn and spread knowledge of the language, indeed, I wish them well, but it's place in the Constitution is a distraction from becoming a nation with a high percentage of bi-lingual natives, which holds us back both culturally and economically.

Agreed, partially.

We would need a referndum in order to remove Irish from the constitution entirely.

I will submit a poll on this soon.

dizzywizlw

sdonn wrote: »

We all know by now that the general majority here are anti-Irish folk. Barely any point even attempting to promote gaeilge here tbh.

I like Irish fine.

I prefer fiscal prudence.

scientific1982 wrote: »

Yes really. Enlightened would be one word. If I wanted to be snobby about it, I would have said cultured.

Irish is not Latin and it never will be.

scientific1982

dizzywizlw wrote: »

I take it that you believe 'culture' to be static and historical and not something which evolves over time?

Is there anything to be said by 'de-educationalising' Irish and promoting/funding growth through NGOs. Certainly Tourists don't come to Ireland for the general standard of Irish. Not to mention that the FDI for foreign languages may offset the Tourism loss

I never anywhere that culture should be static, but there is something to be said for preserving aspects of ones culture which are valuable.

On your second point, yes some tourists actually do visit this country for the language. People come here to immerse themselves in our culture, compared to other countries there aint much else going on.

scientific1982

Namlub wrote: »

And if I wanted to be blunt about I'd have said you're laughably ignorant.

Care to expand on that point.

Namlub

scientific1982 wrote: »

Care to expand on that point.

It is ignorant to suggest that parents who send their children to gaelscoils are more cultured and enlightened than those who don't. It doesn't require much expansion tbh.

scientific1982

dizzywizlw wrote: »

Irish is not Latin and it never will be.

Could you point out where I said it was latin. And tell me what the relevance of that statement is to being with.

HavingCrack

Preferred option-Teach Spanish/French/German (preferably Spanish I think, far more speakers than the latter two) from Junior Infants instead of Irish. This idea of starting to learn foreign languages from secondary school is madness.

Alternative option-If you insist on teaching Irish in schools, overhaul its teaching drastically. Cut out all reading and writing of Irish until secondary school. Spend all of primary just focusing on speaking Gaeilge. Introduce videos, cds, television etc. If people can speak it, we can focus on reading and writing later.

dizzywizlw

scientific1982 wrote: »

I never anywhere that culture should be static, but there is something to be said for preserving aspects of ones culture which are valuable.

On your second point, yes some tourists actually do visit this country for the language. People come here to immerse themselves in our culture, compared to other countries there aint much else going on.

Can the 'Craic' not be preserved without the current Irish system? If the Irish language areas and the Trad tourism lark are no longer unique then a surely tourism would flounder.The 'Trad Irish' aspect of our National Identity is fairly self sustaining IMO and the majority will never adopt Irish as it is taught now.

Then again if DeutschePost AG (DHL) or Total relocated here for hi-tech bilingual jobs I doubt anybody would give two hoots about the Tourism revenue.

dizzywizlw

HavingCrack wrote: »

Preferred option-Teach Spanish/French/German (preferably Spanish I think, far more speakers than the latter two)

110 Million people in Europe speak German or a sub language. 1/5th of Spanish worldwide but more on the continent. In economic terms German is the best bet. I'd love to learn Spanish,Italian or Russian though.

Donal Og O Baelach

Pace2008 wrote: »

You're neglecting to mention, or have not considered, one of the main reasons Gaelsocils are so popular:

They are sparsely attended by foreign nationals and members of the working class, so many middle-class parents who'd rather their children not rub shoulders with these sorts look to send them there.

This is correct.

scientific1982

Namlub wrote: »

It is ignorant to suggest that parents who send their children to gaelscoils are more cultured and enlightened than those who don't. It doesn't require much expansion tbh.

Then you should look up the term "cultured". And you called my opinion ignorant.

Earthhorse

GizAGoOfYerGee wrote: »

We would need a referndum in order to remove Irish from the constitution entirely.

I'd even be happy if it moved into some sort of secondary position, where maybe it had to be taught to primary level, but it's probably neater not to have that in the Constitution.

I will submit a poll on this soon.

No need. I'm quite sure any such referendum would fail because, in my opinion, people wouldn't put their money where their mouth is nor their mouth where their mind is. People like the idea of having our own language but many when it comes down to it actually resent it, or at least the way in which it is taught. When asked about though they will be two faced, claiming they'd love to know it better (but making no effort to do so) and that they wish they'd given it more attention in school (conveniently forgetting how much they hated it at the time).

Schapiro

Does everything have to be done solely for practicality?
I have a funny feeling that the sh!te most people have or do isn't for practicality. And what about other nations anyway? If the Swedish or French or whomever else can speak their native language, English, as well as other languages, there is absolutely no reason that we can't do the same here.

Irish isn't practical, it's useless, so get rid of it.
The GAA isn't practical, so get rid of it as well.
Sweets aren't practical, unless you want to gain weight or get cavities, neither of which are useful, so out all of that.
Fancy, expensive cars aren't entirely practical, as well as SUVs, so them too.
Sure lets get rid of music and dance because they're not practical in the big scope of things either.



If the world turns into a place that does things only for practical purposes, for money-making or profit or work or whatever "practical" things are for, it's going to be an insanely lifeless, cultureless, sad place.

HavingCrack

dizzywizlw wrote: »

110 Million people in Europe speak German or a sub language. 1/5th of Spanish worldwide but more on the continent. In economic terms German is the best bet. I'd love to learn Spanish,Italian or Russian though.

Depends on the job really. I've a relative working in the financial sector in London and the vast majority of his mutli national companies overseas business is with Spanish speakers in Latin America. They insisted he learned it and even sent him to Mexico for 2 months :pac:.

Anyway I'd be delighted if German or Spanish were being taught from the moment they start school .

gcgirl

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Many children with learning difficulties do extremely well in Gaelscoileanna.

I may sit on the fence with this one my eldest is exempt from Irish because she has a sever learning disabilty

Sleepy

No thanks. I'd rather see it made optional, the curriculum reformed to have it taught to an acceptable conversational level and more funding and emphasis placed on more important subjects like maths and science.

There's another point you're missing in that the vocabulary of the Irish language isn't sufficient to teach most subjects to secondary level. Having been involved in a government project which required all outputs to be professionally translated by an Irish university proved that the language simply doesn't have the words to deal with much of modern finance. It's not evolving sufficiently because it's not widely enough spoken.

Marcus.Aurelius

Schapiro wrote: »

Irish isn't practical, it's useless, so get rid of it.
The GAA isn't practical, so get rid of it as well.

A wonderful suggestion, thank you!

Sweets aren't practical, unless you want to gain weight or get cavities, neither of which are useful, so out all of that.
Fancy, expensive cars aren't entirely practical, as well as SUVs, so them too.
Sure lets get rid of music and dance because they're not practical in the big scope of things either.

All of these things make money, Irish wastes it.

If the world turns into a place that does things only for practical purposes, for money-making or profit or work or whatever "practical" things are for, it's going to be an insanely lifeless, cultureless, sad place.

Oh yeah, tourists won't travel here anymore because we stopped speaking gibberish on our days off. The loss of Irish will lead to the landscape becoming ugly and unseemly and nobody will want to travel to see the former emerald isle.

Utter rubbish.

fkt

When the country is going through some of it's most difficult times and needs an intelligent, sharp minded, educated workforce to get through the next decade, the next generation are sitting there everyday being taught conas ata tu and God is great.

If the country was rich, thriving and had time to spare, fine.

You're trying to attract MNC's to create crucial employment, what to they think when they enquire "What are the Irish being taught?" and they see a couple of hundred thousand of us are being force fed something that will never aid anyone every day.

It's a f*cking scandal

byhookorbycrook

I have already stated that our children learn German in senior classes. Children who are bi-lingual at an early age find it easier to learn a 3rd and even 4th language.I'm a bit wary of children being exempted from Irish in primary school. I'm not sure if it sends the wrong message to the child.

byhookorbycrook

fkt wrote: »

You're trying to attract MNC's to create crucial employment, what to they think when they enquire "What are the Irish being taught?" and they see a couple of hundred thousand of us are being force fed something that will never aid anyone every day.

It's a f*cking scandal

Our children have been involved in a pilot programme using 3-d immersive technology in an educational setting- any MND would be damn lucky to get any of these children in a few years time.

KeithAFC

scientific1982 wrote: »

Learning irish doesnt have to be about practicality, its an important part of our cultural identity. One of the only reasons for tourism into this country is Irish culture, of which the Irish language is a large part. Its also good for kids to become comfortable learning different languages.

Thank fvuk for the nationalist community in the North and more enlightened parents.

No son or daughter of mine will be forced to learn Irish in the future. I will take them out of that and also RE studies when that times comes.

kowloon

Learn Chinese, before they make us learn.

Schapiro

Caesar Augustus wrote: »

Oh yeah, tourists won't travel here anymore because we stopped speaking gibberish on our days off. The loss of Irish will lead to the landscape becoming ugly and unseemly and nobody will want to travel to see the former emerald isle.

Utter rubbish.

When did I mention anything about tourism? I'm not talking simply about Ireland, I'm talking about world cultures in general. If we don't see Irish as being worth preserving then why should anyone preserve any language other than English? What's the point?

Marcus.Aurelius

Schapiro wrote: »

When did I mention anything about tourism? I'm not talking simply about Ireland, I'm talking about world cultures in general. If we don't see Irish as being worth preserving then why should anyone preserve any language other than English? What's the point?

Maybe because languages like German, Spanish, French are a primary language of other countries, principally trading partners. If you wish to debate what culture actually consists of, you are in the wrong forum.

If a culture cannot perpetuate itself, and dies, it is simply cultural Zeitgeist in action. Real culture does not require life-support.

aDeener

Caesar Augustus wrote: »

A wonderful suggestion, thank you!



All of these things make money, Irish wastes it.



Oh yeah, tourists won't travel here anymore because we stopped speaking gibberish on our days off. The loss of Irish will lead to the landscape becoming ugly and unseemly and nobody will want to travel to see the former emerald isle.

Utter rubbish.

let me guess, the fat kid picked last?

Schapiro

Ar aon nós, I see the language as being worth preserving.

And to answer the OP: No, making all public schools taught through the medium of Irish is not the answer, by any means. The poll needs more options. Making the language a choice in secondary schools, and keeping Gaelscoileanna running (as well as making sure they are able to meet enrollment demands), would be my vote.

wilson10

It's been proven over generations that the force feeding of Irish doesn't work, so why perpetuate it or ramp it up as some propose.

I was taught in secondary school through the medium of Irish, many years ago and excelled in subjects such as maths, physics & engineering studies.

When I went out into the real world of work and into the field of engineering I was somewhat lost, not knowing the simplest of words used in the everyday use of maths and geometry.

It took me years to catch up, and not because I was lacking in any way in intellect or understanding of the subject.

I simply didn't have the English words to be able to converse with my colleagues.

It's all very well having a knowledge of your heritage and your native tongue but I think that the ability to earn a decent living comes first.

European languages are more important now for the world of work, indeed a working knowledge of Chinese at the present time would guarantee anyone a job without having to emigrate.

If the Government wants to do something practical for the Irish language, let them fund free evening classes for those who willingly want to learn instead of wasting valuable resources on those who don't.

Marcus.Aurelius

aDeener wrote: »

let me guess, the fat kid picked last?

Pathetic. Can't you argue without the ad hominem?

aDeener

Caesar Augustus wrote: »

Pathetic. Can't you argue without the ad hominem?

hardly as pathetic as wanting to get rid of an organisation that creates enjoyment for hundreds of thousands of people......

still bitter from your school days

Marcus.Aurelius

aDeener wrote: »

hardly as pathetic as wanting to get rid of an organisation that creates enjoyment for hundreds of thousands of people......

still bitter from your school days

Again with the ad hominem.

What's the problem? The GAA can survive if it is managed well and continues to be popular. I just want it off life-support, surely it can fend for itself, if not, good riddance.

AnneElizabeth

Irish is absolutely the most useless thing you will ever learn. It serves no purpose whatsoever. The LC standard of French is ridiculously low. I wish I had been taught French in primary school as opposed to Irish. I hate having to learn it.

People who are still demanding that Irish be mandatory are so ignorant. The fact is that it's a useless language, it's very difficult and no one wants to learn it. You can't force people to do something they don't want to do and it's a million times harder when it serves no purpose. Who cares about culture. Let Irish die.

aDeener

Caesar Augustus wrote: »

Again with the ad hominem.

What's the problem? The GAA can survive if it is managed well and continues to be popular. I just want it off life-support, surely it can fend for itself, if not, good riddance.

off life support? are you an idiot, do you know what the GAA even is?

that is actually hilarious :rolleyes:

Marcus.Aurelius

aDeener wrote: »

off life support? are you an idiot, do you know what the GAA even is?

that is actually hilarious :rolleyes:

Does the Gaelic Athletic Association require government funding?

If yes, why?

Metallergy

droll poll trolls

keep irish; cut french/spanish. or english, rather - we'd be keen enough to learn the english in our own time. even if just so as we can understand what the fúck that fella's sayin on TV

Namlub

scientific1982 wrote: »

Then you should look up the term "cultured". And you called my opinion ignorant.

Parents send their children to a gaelscoil --> They must be far more enlightened than those that don't
Someone takes issue with this opinion --> They must not have understood the highly obscure word I used

Yeah, I don't think we're going to get anywhere.

aDeener

Caesar Augustus wrote: »

Does the Gaelic Athletic Association require government funding?

If yes, why?

so just because it receives funding means it is on life support? christ almighty.....

no more so than any other sporting organisation? :rolleyes: are you honestly suggesting any sport shouldn't receive anything?

God you have some ridiculous views if that is the case

Orizio

Caesar Augustus wrote: »

Does the Gaelic Athletic Association require government funding?

If yes, why?

So all organisations that require government funding are on life support?

You can't possibly mean this, as its nonsense, so I can only assume you seem to believe the GAA needs government funding to survive. This, obviously, is not true. Like at all.

Orizio

Caesar Augustus wrote: »

If a culture cannot perpetuate itself, and dies, it is simply cultural Zeitgeist in action. Real culture does not require life-support.

This is entirely true btw. But its only true for the Irish language, which the Irish people have rejected through their apathy, and not Gaelic Games, which are one of the very few aspects of Irish culture that is still vibrant.

Marcus.Aurelius

Orizio wrote: »

So all organisations that require government funding are on life support?

You can't possibly mean this, as its nonsense, so I can only assume you seem to believe the GAA needs government funding to survive. This, obviously, is not true. Like at all.

Ah a red herring for a change! Back on topic, are there organisations as non-essential as the GAA (EDIT: not in the arts/sports category) that get such funding?

And if the GAA does not require funding, then it should not receive it, not that it should ever be given public money.

Marcus.Aurelius

Orizio wrote: »

This is entirely true btw. But its only true for the Irish language, which the Irish people have rejected through their apathy, and not Gaelic Games, which are one of the very few aspects of Irish culture that is still vibrant.

I agree with you Orizio, I just think that if the GAA is so vibrant, it shouldn't need funding. At the same time, if the GAA has the support of a majority of voters/citizens, and it requires money to survive, there is nothing democratically wrong with continuing to support it, if the people will.

Marcus.Aurelius

aDeener wrote: »

so just because it receives funding means it is on life support? christ almighty.....

no more so than any other sporting organisation? :rolleyes: are you honestly suggesting any sport shouldn't receive anything?

God you have some ridiculous views if that is the case

See last post.

Orizio

Caesar Augustus wrote: »

Back on topic, are there organisations as non-essential as the GAA that get such funding?

And if the GAA does not require funding, then it should not receive it, not that it should ever be given public money.

Yes? But the GAA is in no way non-essential - we live in a country increasingly defined by laziness and poor health, this point alone makes all sporting organisations very important.

Regarding public funding for the GAA, I dislike the way sports are funded (basically split between the big three sports) - rather, we should be using that money to build community centers throughout the country to facilitate as many sports as possible.

Orizio

Caesar Augustus wrote: »

I agree with you Orizio, I just think that if the GAA is so vibrant, it shouldn't need funding.

Are you simply suggesting that all 'non-essential' public funding should be cut then? i.e. the tax-payers money should be used only for the most basic of services - health, education etc - and nothing else?

Marcus.Aurelius

Orizio wrote: »

Yes? But the GAA is in no way non-essential - we live in a country increasingly defined by laziness and poor health, this point alone makes all sporting organisations very important.

I think we're confusing two different issues, this is not about health, it's purely from a cultural POV, and besides, this is not the topic of the thread.

Regarding public funding for the GAA, I dislike the way sports are funded (basically split between the big three sports) - rather, we should be using that money to build community centers throughout the country to facilitate as many sports as possible.

No disagreement from me on that point.

Marcus.Aurelius

Orizio wrote: »

Are you simply suggesting that all 'non-essential' public funding should be cut then? i.e. the tax-payers money should be used only for the most basic of services - health, education etc - and nothing else?

Small government is a nice idea, but there are a lot of organisations, within say, the Justice umbrella that require funding to survive, these provide essential services.

And essential does not mean basic or draconian cutting. My argument is about the sheer waste of money on something like a dead language.

Orizio

Caesar Augustus wrote: »

I think we're confusing two different issues, this is not about health, it's purely from a cultural POV, and besides, this is not the topic of the thread.

Fair enough. Essentially you are saying if a cultural organisation (I don't really consider the GAA to something like that tbh) is vibrant then it doesn't need public funding as it would be better used elsewhere, and if does need public funding then it has become culturally irrelevent and is going to die regardless. Am I warmer?

KindOfIrish

KeithAFC wrote: »

Perhaps they could take the money from the Irish language and use it to create jobs for unemployed people instead?

Or better teaching of mathematics, physics and chemistry

Orizio

Caesar Augustus wrote: »

Small government is a nice idea, but there are a lot of organisations, within say, the Justice umbrella that require funding to survive, these provide essential services.

And essential does not mean basic or draconian cutting. My argument is about the sheer waste of money on something like a dead language.

I was using 'health' and 'education' as the two most obvious examples amongst many, although I was assuming you were coming at this subject with a classical liberal bent.

We seem to be in agreement regardless.