Next Leader of FF - Martin or Lenihan?

Tragedy

steelcityblues wrote: »

FF are a populist party filed with too many self serving careerists.

That makes them different to SF/FG/Lab how? Is any significant irish party not populist and filled with careerists?

steelcityblues

Less careerists in the other parties ranks, but it is still a sorry state alright!

johngalway

steelcityblues wrote: »

Sounds like Brian Lenihan is hinting that the election will be in Feb

Doesn't matter a bit what Lendahand says now, opposition benches have the numbers now, so it's go or be pushed, simple as that

johngalway

Balmed Out wrote: »

fiana fail are a centre left party.

Say what now? It's been a long time since they've been that. Perhaps in the early 90's was the last time. They're a populist party as said. Swung to the right massively with the PD's and since.

thetonynator

Martin 1/8 today on paddy power.
Lenihan 9/2
O'Cuiv 16/1
Hanifan 18/1.

Here.

darragh16

Fianna Fail, centrist/populist. Although they have some leftist/socialist ideas they're ultimately a populist party. FG and Lab. are slightly on either side of the spectrum.

Tragedy

steelcityblues wrote: »

Less careerists in the other parties ranks, but it is still a sorry state alright!

How do you figure there's less careerists in other parties? Not trying to be picky, but I don't understand why people seem to think politicians from one party are any different to politicians from another party. Our political system, is exactly that: a system.
Take England for example, three wildly different parties with different histories and ethos', and all three involved in expenses scandals.

steelcityblues

Tragedy wrote: »

How do you figure there's less careerists in other parties? Not trying to be picky, but I don't understand why people seem to think politicians from one party are any different to politicians from another party. Our political system, is exactly that: a system.
Take England for example, three wildly different parties with different histories and ethos', and all three involved in expenses scandals.

Well, the overwhelming number of politicians who have gave evidence to tribunals have been from FF - Haughey, Burke, Ahern, Lawlor, Flynn, etc.

At least that gives the average punter that FG and Labour people in general mght be in there or at least partially, for the right reasons.

But of course all the major parties take part in the 'game' of politics on a regular basis, much to the average citizen's detriment.

The credibility of all three big parties in England is severely damaged, I agree.

Tragedy

steelcityblues wrote: »

Well, the overwhelming number of politicians who have gave evidence to tribunals have been from FF - Haughey, Burke, Ahern, Lawlor, Flynn, etc.

At least that gives the average punter that FG and Labour people in general mght be in there or at least partially, for the right reasons.

But of course all the major parties take part in the 'game' of politics on a regular basis, much to the average citizen's detriment.

The credibility of all three big parties in England is severely damaged, I agree.

And the argument that "the overwhelming number of politicians who have given evidence to tribunals have been from FF" is because, simply put, they were the ones who have been mostly in power for the last 20 years has no credence?

I'm an equal opportunities hater, I've just gotten tired of people being deliberately blinkered with their hate/loathing(not saying that you're one of them mind!). The system needs reform, and that message is going completely lost in the vitriol of "GET FF OUT AND EVERYTHING WILL BE MAGICALLY FIXED".

steelcityblues

Tragedy wrote: »

And the argument that "the overwhelming number of politicians who have given evidence to tribunals have been from FF" is because, simply put, they were the ones who have been mostly in power for the last 20 years has no credence?

I'm an equal opportunities hater, I've just gotten tired of people being deliberately blinkered with their hate/loathing(not saying that you're one of them mind!)

I'm not supporting FG or Labour come election, but it's clear who has a massive lead in the corruption stakes.

Your comments are justifying their behaviour - intentional or not!

goose2005

hotmail.com wrote: »

Hanafin referred to her "concerns on social matters" today - so her right wing views have come out.

are you sure they weren't her hardline Catholic views?

Liam Byrne

Tragedy wrote: »

I've just gotten tired of people being deliberately blinkered with their hate/loathing(not saying that you're one of them mind!). The system needs reform, and that message is going completely lost in the vitriol of "GET FF OUT AND EVERYTHING WILL BE MAGICALLY FIXED".

How do you distinguish between the two ?

I detest everything that FF represent because of their track record, and I'd put an alternative in that I would hope would have less corruption.

If they don't, then I'll hate them just as much.

Getting FF out won't fix anything; and indeed, they may even have done too much damage this time for it to be fixed.

But getting them out will prevent them from making it worse.

I've said it already; anyone in the running for FF's leader has already voted unacceptably re NAMA & Anglo & confidence in incompetent and/or dodgy characters & has shafted ordinary people while letting the big guns off with massive payoffs, bonuses and pensions.

So changing who's spouting the nonsense and lies at the top of FF will make no difference.

bhovaspack

Just for the uninitiated such as myself, can somebody please clearly explain why Ó'Cuív is considered such a terrible candidate? The De Valera connection would seem to provide some assets, at a symbolic level at least, particularly if FF are going to try and claim "ownership" of the 1916 centenary, as I think is expected. Also at the symbolic level, perhaps he might also have a certain "west's awake" appeal.

Though maybe he went a bit too far with that whole shtick when he promoted the Tuam Herald as the primary vehicle for his policies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zjK4Ifn5Ww

Anyway, I just wondered what people think, since he seems to be discounted as a serious contender by most. Is he considered inept, or implicated in corruption, or both? Thanks.

BP

Tragedy

steelcityblues wrote: »

Your comments are justifying their behaviour - intentional or not!

If I say "it's ok for X to do something because Y and Z have done or will do it too", that's justifying it.

If I say(and did say) "X did something, but it's blind and stupid to ignore the that Y and Z have done or will do it too, as that way the system that produces and engenders X, Y and Z won't ever change", that isn't justifying it.

It isn't anything of the sort.

So again, please do actually look up what justification actually is and maybe that way next time you won't use it incorrectly.

@Liam, I'm not even bothering arguing with you. Lately it seems like I can go on ANY forum on boards, and I'll see you spouting the same rabble rabble posts as loudly as you can and from as many places as possible. Not interested.

steelcityblues

bhovaspack wrote: »

Just for the uninitiated such as myself, can somebody please clearly explain why Ó'Cuív is considered such a terrible candidate? The De Valera connection would seem to provide some assets, at a symbolic level at least, particularly if FF are going to try and claim "ownership" of the 1916 centenary, as I think is expected. Also at the symbolic level, perhaps he might also have a certain "west's awake" appeal.

Though maybe he went a bit too far with that whole shtick when he promoted the Tuam Herald as the primary vehicle for his policies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zjK4Ifn5Ww

Anyway, I just wondered what people think, since he seems to be discounted as a serious contender by most. Is he considered inept, or implicated in corruption, or both? Thanks.

BP

The guy recently issued a rallying call to his local party members about people who want to get rid of the 'Catholic Church, GAA , Fianna Fail'.

Do you think someone with that tribal mentality would be a good leader for anyone else apart from the party diehards? I certainly don't.

Balmed Out

My problem with O'Cuiv would be that the basis for his popularity would apparently be from the td's he's helped out sending grants to causes in their constituencies.


Never voted fianna fail and not about to.
Would prefer we didnt rush boldly into an election when no party has yet been able to give us a reason to vote FOR them rather then AGAINST the government. Im sick of reading silly policies from labour, a different set of policies each season from fianna gael and mathematical impossibilities from sin fein who seem to think since they have no hope they may as well promise anything for a bit of publicity.

LiutenantDan

I never voted for FF and don't see that changing any time soon.
That said, I think Martin is the one figure there that I personally feel has an ounce of credibility if anyone in FF still does!

hotmail.com

goose2005 wrote: »

are you sure they weren't her hardline Catholic views?

Yep that's what I mean. Her right wing views stem for her Catholic beliefs. She's a step backwards for FF and the country.

iPlop

hotmail.com wrote: »

Yep that's what I mean. Her right wing views stem for her Catholic beliefs. She's a step backwards for FF and the country.

She's no good for FF credibility ,i am not a FF supporter at all ,but I think Charlie O' Connor has more cred than the current line up

SB-08

bhovaspack wrote: »

Just for the uninitiated such as myself, can somebody please clearly explain why Ó'Cuív is considered such a terrible candidate? The De Valera connection would seem to provide some assets, at a symbolic level at least, particularly if FF are going to try and claim "ownership" of the 1916 centenary, as I think is expected. Also at the symbolic level, perhaps he might also have a certain "west's awake" appeal.

Though maybe he went a bit too far with that whole shtick when he promoted the Tuam Herald as the primary vehicle for his policies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zjK4Ifn5Ww

Anyway, I just wondered what people think, since he seems to be discounted as a serious contender by most. Is he considered inept, or implicated in corruption, or both? Thanks.

BP

Because the man is a complete moron. There are a lot of very ignorance politicians in this country but O'Cuiv really is one of the ultimate gobsheens there is. I have seen the man on many current affairs shows over the years and it never ceases to amaze me how poor he is and how appalling his knowledge is on so many issues. Vincent Browne's humiliates him on a regular basis without even trying. Even Conor Lenihan is an astonishingly brilliant debater when compared to this man.

I can only begin to image how bad he would be in the leaders debates. His knowledge of the economy is so utterly **** he would make Enda Kenny seem like the next Morgan Kelly FFS.;)

If FF elect him as leader they will ensure it will have begun with a Dev and ended with one.

The only options are Lenny and Martin and Lenny really is damaging himself more and more every time he opens his mouth.

ninty9er

later10 wrote: »

I believe Peter Power's name has been thrown into the ring by some commentators; wouldn't surprise me if he put himself forward,, although he'd never win yet. He's ambitious, he has a definite future in Government at some level.

I spoke to him this evening and I can confirm that he will not be contesting. I would also advise him against doing so in future. I did however express my dissatisfaction, that the only offerings are from cabinet.

jank

ninty9er wrote: »

I spoke to him this evening and I can confirm that he will not be contesting. I would also advise him against doing so in future. I did however express my dissatisfaction, that the only offerings are from cabinet.

Are you surprised? This is FF we are talking about.

raymon

Next leader of FF , will it be Lenihan or Martin or maybe even the Kebabs Lenihan ?? - come on - Do we really care ??

FF have ruined our economy !! So are we supposed to care who is the leader of their failed party ?

If I was in FF I would get down to SVP , Focus Ireland , or the Simon Community to donate / volunteer / apologise for the state of the economy rather than engage in this "Im king of the castle" pantomime .

Shame on you FF , Shame on you

ninty9er

raymon wrote: »

Next leader of FF , will it be Lenihan or Martin or maybe even the Kebabs Lenihan ?? - come on - Do we really care ??

FF have ruined our economy !! So are we supposed to care who is the leader of their failed party ?

If I was in FF I would get down to SVP , Focus Ireland , or the Simon Community to donate / volunteer / apologise for the state of the economy rather than engage in this "Im king of the castle" pantomime .

Shame on you FF , Shame on you

I think you'll find that you wouldn't have to listen to it if the media weren't interested. 99% of the population doesn't give a shit, but if there's a demand from the media, the supply will exist.

FF would rather get this over and done with with no media coverage whatsoever until a result is declared.

tfitzgerald

Martin willbe the next leader of fianna faíl

jank

ninty9er wrote: »

I think you'll find that you wouldn't have to listen to it if the media weren't interested. 99% of the population doesn't give a shit, but if there's a demand from the media, the supply will exist.

FF would rather get this over and done with with no media coverage whatsoever until a result is declared.

Is it the media fault so?

femur61

I would be hoping Martin doesn't get it as a week is a long time in politics and th man has so much appeal and he could swing a lot of the electorate. Some people will forget the damage FF have done to this country.

Tragedy

jank wrote: »

Is it the media fault so?

Is the media circus the medias fault?
Yes?
Why are you even asking?

outandabout

I don't support FF but I'd prefer Lenihan to Martin. Martin, in my opinion, is a fence sitter and not decisive enough.

Lenihan appears more decisive and is a better communicator.

jmayo

hotmail.com wrote: »

Mary Hanafin's brother is a senator and voted against the civil partnership last year. Her father is equally right wing.

Anyone know what Hanafin's leanings are on social matters?

Right wing like the rest of her family.

outandabout wrote: »

I don't support FF but I'd prefer Lenihan to Martin. Martin, in my opinion, is a fence sitter and not decisive enough.

Lenihan appears more decisive and is a better communicator.

It is no use being decisive when all one's decisions are the wrong ones. :rolleyes:
Likewise it is no use being a good communicator when all one is communicating are lies, spin and more spin. :rolleyes:

outandabout

It is no use being decisive when all one's decisions are the wrong ones.
Likewise it is no use being a good communicator when all one is communicating are lies, spin and more spin
...

Hi JMayo

I think you're being a bit harsh here. No matter what way the election ends up, we'll need a good opposition.

For that reason, I'd prefer to see Lenihan leading FF but Martin would be a decent enough alternative.

Electing then Taoiseach would be a completely different matter.

Devilman40k

With Calleary being Martins 2nd proposer I would suggest that it is nailed on now that he will become FF leader and probably with Calleary as his no 2, to groom him for the role of future leader.

Balmed Out

How does anyone see lenihan as being decisive? He comes from a political family and as such has had a pathway laid out for him to follow. He's best known as being a big time ahern and cowen lackey and his fiery defence of liam lawlor, he didnt seem to do absolutely anything as minister for justice and has been awarded worst eu finance minister two years running.
He was given highly sought after portfolios without having done anything to deserve them simply because he's a yes man.
Look at Martin in contrast. In education he brought in learning support, in health the smoking ban and he got rid of the health boards for the hse, as minister for enterprise he got rid of the groceries act, in foreign affairs he visited gazza and stood up to israel more then any other eu foreign minister. If you look at the guys career you wont agree with everything hes done but youll see he was always one of the busiest ministers and was alwasy moved aside when doing well. That doesnt happen if you do the yes man thing in the cabinet all the time. Rumour has it it has him cowen and dermot ahern who got bertie to step down.

Is it that lenihan is broader or something that people get the weird opinion that hes somehow got leadershi potential and is decisive?

Im not a ff supporter but I do find myself strangely wanting them to bring martin in and not get totally decimated in the election. For a start while i dont see it happening due to the grey vote ff will still get but id be horrified if sinn fein were the main opposition party. Secondly I worry about the long term stability of a fine gael / labour coalition if they are both big enough to have other options available.

geeky

Balmed Out wrote: »

he got rid of the health boards for the hse.

For many people, this alone disqualifies him from being a suitable candidate.

Balmed Out

My point was that hes proactive and a decision maker not that he always makes correct decisions. As for the hse its ineficent and needs reforming but its still really still only in a transitional phase from the health boards from which even now its probably an improvement. The health boards were the biggest source of jobs for the boys cronyism in their day. Better off rid of it but plenty still to do. If I was to point out martins biggest failing for me itd have to be the original lisbon referendum which he failed to get passed and more imortantly failed to get most of us to understand.

JP Liz V1

I think it will be Martin

Liam Byrne

jmayo wrote: »

R
It is no use being decisive when all one's decisions are the wrong ones. :rolleyes:
Likewise it is no use being a good communicator when all one is communicating are lies, spin and more spin. :rolleyes:

Agree 100%. Lenihan's decisions cost us fortunes, and aside from the initial "do it now" banking guarantee (which was so decisive that he didn't even read the report) it took him 2 years to "be decisive" re bank bonuses and payoffs.

Also a strange statement at the weekend that politics suited his illness or something like that, and has caused it to abate ? Very, very strange, since stress is normally something that makes it worse.

mike65

Bad news Lennie - Eoghan Harris is backing you! (todayfm interview)

steelcityblues

mike65 wrote: »

Bad news Lennie - Eoghan Harris is backing you! (todayfm interview)

Basically, he's detailing his man crush for the man right now!

GSF

mike65 wrote: »

Bad news Lennie - Eoghan Harris is backing you! (todayfm interview)

10 minute monologue too!

Trotter

Harris is unreal.. He's like the boy in the class running around trying to stand behind whichever fella will protect him and stand over him.

I cannot listen to the man. Working class people value Lenihan.. Good God.

GSF

In fairness to Harris he was good at pointing out the flaws of Martin. There a plenty and he is a lightweight. I wasnt buy the Lenny love in though.

SB-08

Harris is such a ****ing gob****e. :mad::mad:

I cannot stand the man - he is such a moronic prick. :rolleyes:

He clearly has a serious personal issue with Martin and seems to hate the man for whatever reason. Perhaps Martin told him to his face what a gob****e he thinks he is. Martin does appear to be a straight talker so it wouldn't surprise me.

A great endorsement for Lenny that Harris is supporting him. You have to be a genius as bull****ting to win the support of this vile man. I cannot get over how stupid he is. Delusional doesn't even begin to describe him. He says Lenny is made of steel and can think on his feet better than anyone - what rubbish. Once he is confronted with someone who has a strong knowledge on the economy he is exposed for the inept fool he is. Only a complete moron would at this stage STILL be under the illusion that Lenny knows his stuff and is the only man who knows how to get us out of this mess - Harris is one of them.

Tragedy

Balmed Out wrote: »

How does anyone see lenihan as being decisive? He comes from a political family and as such has had a pathway laid out for him to follow.

Wikipedia wrote:

He began lecturing in law at Trinity College, Dublin in 1984 and in the same year was called to the Irish Bar. From 1992 to 1995 he was a member of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Tribunal and the Garda Síochána Complaints Appeal Board,[2] and in 1997 he became a Senior Counsel.

It was also assumed that he would lose his first election in Dublin West, it was a bit of an upset when he just about pipped Joe Higgins to the last seat in it.

He's best known as being a big time ahern and cowen lackey

The Ahern lackey who Pat Rabbite publically congratulated on his position vis a vis Ahern accepting personal payments?

How do you figure him a Cowen lackey?

and his fiery defence of liam lawlor,

You mean when he said

Brian Lenihan said there had been no proper apology or explanation for the reports(of his death in Moscow), and pointed out that no adverse finding had been made against Mr Lawlor by any court or tribunal at the time of his death.

Quite a fiery defence indeed.

he didnt seem to do absolutely anything as minister for justice

He fought to get illegal immigrants deported(including the infamous roma living on the M50 roundabout case, and Pamela Izvehshdashdashdhbeki). He rushed through emergency legislation after the rape loophole was discovered.
That's just from 5minutes googling.
You do know he was only minister for justice for only a year right?

and has been awarded worst eu finance minister two years running.

Did you actually read the FT rankings?
Did you actually read how the figured out the metrics?
No? I'm not surprised. The FT rankings were basically a popularity contest, based almost wholly on how well (politically) the finance ministers did. Not judging results, or judging the challenges each individual finance minister faced.
In 2009, he was slated by the FT report for 'going it alone'. In 2010, when he went co-operated with the EU and IMF, he came last again despite the sole criticism for 2009 being he didn't co-operate and work with the EU and IMF.

Are you seeing how pointless the popularity contest from the FT is?
No? Nevermind so.

He was given highly sought after portfolios without having done anything to deserve them simply because he's a yes man.

Excuse me, Minister for Children wasn't a highly sought after portfolio, it wasn't even a cabinet ministry and he worked at it for 5 years. He was promoted to Minister for Justice solely because Michael McDowell wasn't re-elected and he was the most qualified to take over(you know, having a fairly distinguished career in Law?).

He was made Minister for Finance in large part due to his handling of Minister for Justice, and I don't recall anyone claiming he was a yes-man and only getting the job because of it back then.

Look at Martin in contrast. In education he brought in learning support, in health the smoking ban and he got rid of the health boards for the hse, as minister for enterprise he got rid of the groceries act, in foreign affairs he visited gazza and stood up to israel more then any other eu foreign minister. If you look at the guys career you wont agree with everything hes done but youll see he was always one of the busiest ministers and was alwasy moved aside when doing well. That doesnt happen if you do the yes man thing in the cabinet all the time. Rumour has it it has him cowen and dermot ahern who got bertie to step down.

What a load of ****e. You pick all the 'bad' things from one politicians career, then pick the only 'good' things from another politicians, while dismissing all his bad things as being simply "getting things done".
Do you not realise how stupid and short-sighted that is?

Is it that lenihan is broader or something that people get the weird opinion that hes somehow got leadershi potential and is decisive?

Because he's articulate, intelligent, a great speaker in person(dunno on TV), he's seen as being the young TD's choice and has the greatest likelihood of actually seeing the old guard out and bringing all the new young td's/councillors up the ranks and rejuvenating the party for election 201*.

PeterIanStaker

Harris would cheerlead a lobotomised ape if it was a member of Fianna Fail.

Back on topic though, Hanafin is very right wing, conservative catholic, and even maybe a member of Opus Dei.

So if she became leader would a good headline be "Member of Secretive Cult becomes Leader of Another Secretive Cult"?

NewHillel

Trotter wrote: »

Working class people value Lenihan.

Thank you, we sure do. With a bit of luck we'll get him over the line.

The best thing the bold Michael could do now is get back to the classroom and take Mary Hanifan with him.

NewHillel

Balmed Out wrote: »

Im not a ff supporter but I do find myself strangely wanting them to bring martin in ...

Strange indeed - he has no experience outside politics and his track record in politics was mediocre.

We now need a strong oposition, more than ever. Realistically, this has to come from FF and that requires a strong leader. Brian L has more leadership capability in his little finger that the other three contenders put together.

steelcityblues

NewHillel wrote: »

Strange indeed - he has no experience outside politics and his track record in politics was mediocre.

We now need a strong oposition, more than ever. Realistically, this has to come from FF and that requires a strong leader. Brian L has more leadership capability in his little finger that the other three contenders put together.

Please explain as to what 'leadership' actually is!

NewHillel

steelcityblues wrote: »

Please explain as to what 'leadership' actually is!

Please, not another (aspiring?) teacher...

However, this might be a good starting point, for you.

steelcityblues

NewHillel wrote: »

Please, not another teacher...

Answer the question!