Gerry Adams? Are things that bad?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

That's the whole point. Wee Truck states that SF will get rid of the problems, correct the mess, and build a better future. When quized on how this will be done, he says he is not a member of SF and can't speak for them. YET, he'll spout their retoric 'till the cows come home. He'll advocate a vote for them without knowing how they plan to achieve anything, let alone decide if those plans actually hold water.

There's too much "we'll throw this out", "we'll not allow that" going on without proper alternatives being offered. Even to say "We'll stimulate infrastructure investment" while blocking any routes to further borrowing is a nonsense spouted by SF. How I long to debate this with them at the doorstep and yet a part of me says I should just give them the bum's rush and refuse to even entertain their nonsense.

Wolfe Tone

Baylee Few Tigress wrote: »

Oh how true. People want to wipe this from history but too many of us know the truth to allow it.

As early as 1980 Gerry was manovering towards the eventual settlement. Quite amazing that he did it and brought the IRA along with him, he did what Collins and Dev couldn't and avoided a devastating split.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Care to comment on his activities from 1970 to 1980?:rolleyes:

Wolfe Tone

Who knows?

Fighting the brutal occupying forces no doubt, collapsing stormont, you know, the usual.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

:D
Oh plenty know!

But, thanks for the laugh. I didn't think anybody still thought or spoke that way anymore.

Thanks again, I needed that.

Wolfe Tone

Plenty think they know, but only Gerry himself knows for sure.


Strange you think its funny, did you think the Special Powers Act was funny? What happened Bombay street was a good laugh as well?

Lord TSC

It also strikes me that although they will defend him and give out about people bringing it up, some SF supporters are happy to jump into the historical argument, using it as a shield for having to deal with the lack of actual policies. It strikes me there are some SF supporters who would rather consider all anti-SF people as those obsessed with his history and not his potential standing in government.

Lets put aside the whole matter of his historical background for a moment, even though GA himself has made sure it's hard to do that. Let's not judge the man based on his past but on the policies he would try to implement should he get into some form of power.

And let me ask my question again; what would GA and SF do about the current problems in Ireland? What would they do (again, not what would they NOT do) to help bring Ireland out of its current slump? Cause again I say, there's plenty of "we won't do this" and "we'll say no to that", but little in terms of "We WILL Do this".

wee truck big driver

what is the point you have already made your mind up and if something that somebody writing here says can change your mind more fool you if you were interested to know what sinn fein intends to do then go on there website pick up there leaflets ask there canvassers how do you know what lab/fg intend to do

Lord TSC

Breaking this up into sentences to deal with some of the points...

wee truck big driver wrote: »

what is the point you have already made your mind up

I really haven't. I don't hold allegences to one party or the other. I won't be voting for Fianna Fail, given the mess they have made in recent times, but after that, I genuinely have not decided who to vote for. I am making a simple observation I find about a group of political supporters but it is just that; an observation. One, by the way, you can prove to be false very easily but seemingly refuse to do so...

and if something that somebody writing here says can change your mind more fool you

If we did take this attitude, we may as well just shut down the internet and message boards in general. People are asking for a debate and a discussion on the policies of a certain party. If one takes that attitude you outlined, so too could we say "don't bother canvassing, only fools change their minds based on what they say." "Don't bother campaigning, only fools base their decisions on posters on display." The nature of the time prior to an election is all sides lay out their agendas, their policies and their advantages to being elected. The nature of elections is that there is a huge amount of people who have not decided on who to vote yet. If political parties followed your line of thinking, then we'd get nowhere. Meanwhile, I take everyone's point of view on board; everyone should always be considerate to other people's way of thinking. At the same time, if you want people to side with you in a debate, you've got to give them reasons to.

if you were interested to know what sinn fein intends to do then go on there website pick up there leaflets ask there canvassers

Again, if people took this attitude, there'd be no campaign, no canvassing etc. If YOU are going to come into this topic and start defending a group, then YOU are going to be asked to back up your points. People have put forward serious concerns with regards SF, and your attitude seems to constantly to be "SF are grand, but look up the reasons why yourself." In a political topic and a political debate, you cannot defend a party without offering reasons for others to conciede to your belief.

how do you know what lab/fg intend to do

More deflection. Once again, rather than actually state what SF's policies or intentions are or trying to prove me wrong, you're trying to launch attacks on other parties and call their beliefs into question. Once again, you're trying to avoid outlining what SF stands for and instead trying to make other parties out as the "big bads."

I don't know what Lab or FG are going to do, but they are currently seperate from the issue at hand (the discussion of SF). When the Lab and FG people come to my door or post on boards, I will have plenty of questions for them as well. In fact, most are the same; what are you going to do about the slump the country is on top of the list. I'll put that question to all parties involved. Again I say, I've got no current allegences. So don't try and paint me as someone who has already decided to vote for one party and is thus attacking another.

The funny thing is I'm actually trying to help the SF side here. I'm trying to steer this topic away from the historical problems that people have with GA and deal with only the current political problems. Any party should be able to answer the question "What will you do to help the country?" without too much hassle. But it strikes me WTBD that you're much happier to argue with people about their points without actually providing any support for your own

wee truck big driver

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Breaking this up into sentences to deal with some of the points...



I really haven't. I don't hold allegences to one party or the other. I won't be voting for Fianna Fail, given the mess they have made in recent times, but after that, I genuinely have not decided who to vote for. I am making a simple observation I find about a group of political supporters but it is just that; an observation. One, by the way, you can prove to be false very easily but seemingly refuse to do so...



If we did take this attitude, we may as well just shut down the internet and message boards in general. People are asking for a debate and a discussion on the policies of a certain party. If one takes that attitude you outlined, so too could we say "don't bother canvassing, only fools change their minds based on what they say." "Don't bother campaigning, only fools base their decisions on posters on display." The nature of the time prior to an election is all sides lay out their agendas, their policies and their advantages to being elected. The nature of elections is that there is a huge amount of people who have not decided on who to vote yet. If political parties followed your line of thinking, then we'd get nowhere. Meanwhile, I take everyone's point of view on board; everyone should always be considerate to other people's way of thinking. At the same time, if you want people to side with you in a debate, you've got to give them reasons to.



Again, if people took this attitude, there'd be no campaign, no canvassing etc. If YOU are going to come into this topic and start defending a group, then YOU are going to be asked to back up your points. People have put forward serious concerns with regards SF, and your attitude seems to constantly to be "SF are grand, but look up the reasons why yourself." In a political topic and a political debate, you cannot defend a party without offering reasons for others to conciede to your belief.



More deflection. Once again, rather than actually state what SF's policies or intentions are or trying to prove me wrong, you're trying to launch attacks on other parties and call their beliefs into question. Once again, you're trying to avoid outlining what SF stands for and instead trying to make other parties out as the "big bads."

I don't know what Lab or FG are going to do, but they are currently seperate from the issue at hand (the discussion of SF). When the Lab and FG people come to my door or post on boards, I will have plenty of questions for them as well. In fact, most are the same; what are you going to do about the slump the country is on top of the list. I'll put that question to all parties involved. Again I say, I've got no current allegences. So don't try and paint me as someone who has already decided to vote for one party and is thus attacking another.

The funny thing is I'm actually trying to help the SF side here. I'm trying to steer this topic away from the historical problems that people have with GA and deal with only the current political problems. Any party should be able to answer the question "What will you do to help the country?" without too much hassle. But it strikes me WTBD that you're much happier to argue with people about their points without actually providing any support for your own

this sounds like the rubbish you get from all politicans and that is a bunch of lies. firstly i could put on here facts and figures of how the tax figures and cuts that sinn fein propose work out and we all live happily ever after. who is to say whether or not they are true most of whats put up here is b.s of the highest order. so we have to judge parties likee f.f f.g and lab on their economic actions in the and at the last election was lower taxes more spending even though every dog in the street could see what was coming. yet now all of a sudden f.g/lab or seen as some sort of saviours please pass me the bucket

Bosh

wee truck big driver wrote: »

this sounds like the rubbish you get from all politicans and that is a bunch of lies. firstly i could put on here facts and figures of how the tax figures and cuts that sinn fein propose work out and we all live happily ever after.

Well, off you go then......

Utopia here we come :rolleyes:

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

wee truck big driver wrote: »

. firstly i could put on here facts and figures of how the tax figures and cuts that sinn fein propose work

At last. We've asked you to provide some concrete items for days and all we get is retoric. Please give the figures so we can get to a discussion with substance.

Oh, and don't assume you know how people will vote. I genuinely have not made up my mind and have never supported a party. You took it on yourself to push the virtues of SF and have failed to convinvce me with your lack of any material whatsoever to justify your stance. I'll welcome discussion with the other parties should they, or anybody on their behalf, care to post here or call to my door.

Wolfe Tone

Couldn't you just look at their site? They have a series of pdfs and such on this

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Oh I have. I have all the "facts & figures" but the Wee Trucker doesn't seem to be aware of them, or able to explain what it is in the policies that convince him. I'll have a discussion when the reps come to the door but I'll not sit idle while someone spouts their brilliance here, without being able to show some cause for their stance. It's called being a responsible voter.

Lord TSC

Couldn't you just look at their site? They have a series of pdfs and such on this

The burden of proof in this situation is surely on you; since there are people saying there is a lack of real policies being offered, it's up to those who are defending themselves to provide the retort.

I like to think of this as a job application since at a basic level, thats exactly what it is. GA is applying for a job. When you go to a job interview, you are asked to provide examples of why you are the best person for the job. You are asked to provide references who can back you up. If you went to an interview and responded to these requests with "look them up yoruself, I'm not going to show you them", you probably wouldn't get the job <_<

If SF wants the position, if you back up SF, then its up to you to defend them with valid points and policies. It's up to you to provide us with the reasons why they should be voted for. It is not your duty to say "they are great, but look up why yourself".

this sounds like the rubbish you get from all politicans and that is a bunch of lies.

What exactly is a lie? That people should have to back up and support their own points? That campaigning is about convincing people you are the best person for the job? It's a weird accusation to level against me tbh, since I'm not entirely sure what you are accusing me of lying about.

firstly i could put on here facts and figures of how the tax figures and cuts that sinn fein propose work out and we all live happily ever after.

Yeay! Please do. I'd be fascinated to discuss such facts and figures, but again, the burden is on you to provide them, not on the skeptics.

ho is to say whether or not they are true most of whats put up here is b.s of the highest order. so we have to judge parties likee f.f f.g and lab on their economic actions in the and at the last election was lower taxes more spending even though every dog in the street could see what was coming. yet now all of a sudden f.g/lab or seen as some sort of saviours please pass me the bucket

Please do not put words in my mouth. As I said, I have no allegencies to FG or Lab, despite how easy that might make this arguement for you. In fact, I am skeptical about FG as well since I struggle to see any real differences between them and FF, and I don't trust Lab to get enough seats to really do much good. Likewise, I'm not aware of their policies. I'd put the exact same questions to them, and I will if and when they come to the door. I am as ignorant about their parties as I am about SF, so please do not think my position is one where I am going to defend them. If someone starts going on about the reasons they think FG or Lab should get into power, I will have the same questions and a different set of skeptic worries about them too.

But this topic is not about them. It's about SF. Once again, you're deflecting the questions being asked of SF and trying to swing this into a debate on the other parties. All this shows is you are trying to skirt the issue, and one can only presume from that that you don't have answers to back up your points. If you have answers, if you can post facts and figures, then please do.


On a similiar note, I was in Drogheda today collecting my Dole and low and behold, who has their offices right outside the front door of the Post Office but GA. You cannot stand anywhere in the Post Office without seeing his face and the slogan about it being a time for change. You actually have to admire him for the thought; what better place to plaster your face than outside the place people are going to get their various benifits.

Wolfe Tone

The burden of proof in this situation is surely on you; since there are people saying there is a lack of real policies being offered, it's up to those who are defending themselves to provide the retort.

Why should I or anyone else hold you by the hand so you can find information which is clear on another site? Surely you are competent enough to use our mutual friend google?

Lord TSC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Why should I or anyone else hold you by the hand so you can find information which is clear on another site? Surely you are competent enough to use our mutual friend google?

I am, but what is my motivation? I am trying to remain as neutral as possible but SF have bad press. You cannot deny that. And I have no reason to really go looking up stuff about the party.

If SF wants my vote, it's up to SF and it's followers to provide me with reasons. If any party wants my vote and anyone else's vote, the burden is on THEM to provide me with reasons to vote for them. It is not on me to go and research them. You "hold my hand" because its you who should be trying to give me reasons to vote for the party.

That's how politics works ladies and gentlemen. An election is a popularity contest and its up to those running and their supports to provide reasons as to why their candiate should win. If you can't understand that, then I can't see how this topic can go much further...

Wolfe Tone

If you want to make an informed choice you should read all the parties proposals. I read FFs even though there is no way I will vote for them.

lucernarian

In fairness and as much as I dislike Gerry Adam's grasp of economics and their realities (my own opinion and I'm not trying to shove that view on anyone else here), it's a bit innocent and convenient to think that you can ignore a man's achievements or failings in the past when he's running for public office. I would consider his negotiating during the Troubles to be a positive attribute of Gerry's. Just like how his performance in the 2007 small parties debate showed a poor grasp of economic matters in the 26 counties.

*I have to add that it seems most of the political leaders of the time were not quite tuned in with economic realities either!

steve9859

SF have a very clear finance policy. Their finance representative clearly outlined it on Vincent Browne last night. It went like this (and I am serious!)

1: Unilaterally default on our debt.
2: use the national pension reserve fund to run the country
3: If that doesnt work, go back to the banks to look for a new loan (the ones we have just screwed)

If there ever was a 'facepalm' moment.....!!

Lord TSC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

If you want to make an informed choice you should read all the parties proposals. I read FFs even though there is no way I will vote for them.

Thats fair enough and I respect the logic behind the post. But can you not see my point; that by refusing to support your claims with solid evidence and constantly trying to make us search for evidence to support your beliefs, you weaken your own stance?

Wolfe Tone

Whats the point in me or anyone else copy and pasting a few links when you can just as easily do it yourself?

Lord TSC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Whats the point in me or anyone else copy and pasting a few links when you can just as easily do it yourself?

The point is you support your points with tangible evidence. Yeah, linking to a few pages may not prove your arguement beyond doubt, but you at least bring substance to your points. Again, the burden is not on me to support your points. It's on you.

Wolfe Tone

You have been told where it is, go look.

Lord TSC

I also have to say I find it funny that a SF person would be encouraging me to google them, rather than trying to control what links I follow. Again, I've tried to take the historical worries out of this debate and focus on political ones, but if you encourage someone to google Sinn Fein, you're opening up those flood gates again cause the internet can be vicious sometimes....

Wolfe Tone

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I also have to say I find it funny that a SF person would be encouraging me to google them, rather than trying to control what links I follow. Again, I've tried to take the historical worries out of this debate and focus on political ones, but if you encourage someone to google Sinn Fein, you're opening up those flood gates again cause the internet can be vicious sometimes....

Im not a "SF person" at all......

http://www.sinnfein.ie/

Theres the site, best of luck. I find it strange that you would be so obtuse.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Fine. I've waded through the website for 30 minutes and found no costings whatsoever. So, where are the figures people claim are there to be seen? Where are the specifics that tell me they have something to offer. I'm looking for someone to vote for. Where can I find some comfort that I can vote for GA and actually see some realistic action that will turn the economy around?

Their first 3 points:

1. Regenerate the economy by investing in a major job creation programme to get Ireland back to work. Certainly a laudable ideal. But how? Where will the funds come from? The Pension Reserve Fund will be used (in SFs mind) to cover the operating costs of the country (max 3 months) after we boot out the IMF. See point 3.

2. Reverse the savage cuts and prioritise frontline services. Again, where are the funds? What cuts are the savage ones and which services in particular will be restored? Inciting language but not detail.

3. Burn the bondholders in Anglo and wind it up. Brilliant. Default on bonds and then try to regenerate the economy by going to the bond markets for funds.

It just doesn't add up. There are no specifics and lots of language to raise the blood of the faithful who won't delve too deep into it.

marienbad

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Im not a "SF person" at all......

http://www.sinnfein.ie/

Theres the site, best of luck. I find it strange that you would be so obtuse.

He is not being obtuse al all Wolftone,( and I suspect you know that) . He and others posters are simply asking those supporting the SF view to provide some information on their policies and thus prompt a debate on those policies.

One of the ideal uses of boards I would think.

No different to me saying my favourite car is a Mondeo or a Merc and you , quite reasonably ask me why .

Wolfe Tone

The pre budget submission would be a good place to start..

http://www.sinnfein.ie/pre-budget-submissions

marienbad

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The pre budget submission would be a good place to start..

http://www.sinnfein.ie/pre-budget-submissions

Ah Wolftone , presupposes we hav'nt read all that ! but it the headlines behind the headlines that really matter.