Wicklow

InTheTrees

wonderfulname wrote: »

Its annoying that little progress has been made in Wicklow but its completely bloody understandable.

First off ...

My opinion is swaying somewhat. It would be more frustrating if the election were hanging on their result.

d'Oracle

Some 2500 votes in "Quarantine" at the moment due to some disputes.....

matt-dublin

irishtimes.com wrote:

Mr Roche says he wants all the votes thrown in the air and the whole process begun again. It now looks as if the three Fine Gael candidates are unlikely to be elected until this evening or tomorrow.

come on, is he that desperate for power??

any takers on going to shoreline tonight and protesting him???

d'Oracle

matt-dublin wrote: »

come on, is he that desperate for power??

any takers on going to shoreline tonight and protesting him???

You think he'd listen?
Where have you been?

u140acro3xs7dm

d'Oracle wrote: »

You think he'd listen?
Where have you been?

What about just giving him a good kickin'

d'Oracle

Hayden Gentle Ruffian wrote: »

What about just giving him a good kickin'

That would be anti-democratic.

matt-dublin

d'Oracle wrote: »

That would be anti-democratic.

he's being anti democratic

d'Oracle

matt-dublin wrote: »

he's being anti democratic

I think you will find, he is milking democracy for all its worth.

matt-dublin

d'Oracle wrote: »

I think you will find, he is milking democracy for all its worth.

i think you'll find he's scared of never ever ever ever being able to work in the country ever again!

edanto

Does anyone have any theories about why he might have done this?

1. He honestly believes that (serious) mistakes were made in the count and these could materially affect the final selection of the 5 elected people.

2. He believes that mistakes were made in the count which will affect his own outcome, i.e. that on a recount he will not be the first FF candidated eliminated and instead his running mate would be. What advantage would this give him?

3. He has some reason for wanting to delay the result. Speculation on what that might be?

4. It's purely based on frustration at being eliminated in 10th place overall and he just can't believe that's accurate.

Any other suggestions? Which do you believe is most likely of the above?

matt-dublin

as per the last election he did it because he's an a$$hole who thinks he deserves to be government.

or because he still believes someone owes him a brown paper envelope somewhere

wonderfulname

edanto wrote: »

Does anyone have any theories about why he might have done this?

1. He honestly believes that (serious) mistakes were made in the count and these could materially affect the final selection of the 5 elected people.

2. He believes that mistakes were made in the count which will affect his own outcome, i.e. that on a recount he will not be the first FF candidated eliminated and instead his running mate would be. What advantage would this give him?

3. He has some reason for wanting to delay the result. Speculation on what that might be?

4. It's purely based on frustration at being eliminated in 10th place overall and he just can't believe that's accurate.

Any other suggestions? Which do you believe is most likely of the above?

Because of which candidates are remaining and their respective areas FFs best chance of a seat in Wicklow is with him. He's in a better position to benefit from transfers than his running mate.

cml387

I have seen a picture of the ballot paper used in Wicklow (it's on RTE's live election feed).

It looks as if there are empty boxes to the right of the candidates in the first column,which could be misinterpreted as the place to put your number.

A bit like the famous "butterfly ballot " in the Florida 2000 presidential election.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Florida,_2000

mikedragon32

matt-dublin wrote: »

come on, is he that desperate for power??

any takers on going to shoreline tonight and protesting him???

I know it's less than a mile, but if you give me a lift, I'll gladly join you!

d'Oracle

As far as I can see from the wires, there are serious concerns over some ballots.

When this recheck is done there will probably be a full recount.
A number of candidates are concerned now.

There is apparently a stack of 2500 ballots which need to be adjudicated upon.

joeybloggs

I think we're all expecting some kind of

recount

to happen again when the 5th seat will be decided, so it's just frustrating for this to occur now.

But I do think Cockroche is right to call it. If he did get a higher vote count, a chain reaction could occur with other transfers giving him a slim outside shot. With 24 candidates and a voting card the size of a newspaper, human error is naturally going to occur.

Good Article, apologises if It's already been posted http://www.thejournal.ie/explained-why-the-wicklow-count-is-taking-so-long-2011-2/


Maybe if we're all patient enough, they'll discover that they made some catastrophic errors and the financial messiah, President Tallon will leap back into contention

Long Live The Independent State of Glasnost

d'Oracle

cml387 wrote: »

I have seen a picture of the ballot paper used in Wicklow (it's on RTE's live election feed).

It looks as if there are empty boxes to the right of the candidates in the first column,which could be misinterpreted as the place to put your number.

A bit like the famous "butterfly ballot " in the Florida 2000 presidential election.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Florida,_2000

You mean the party logo box? On the left?
That could be a hell of a shout right there.

andrewdcs

Wicklow gets it's "hanging chad" moment at last!
Quick To the Supreme Court of Florida!


Why so many candidates? Can we charge a little more to make the large number of sub 1k votes go away, or expect some other system of getting nominated? Gather ye 1000 signatures and addresses, committing at minimum €1 each to your campaign.

Even as a software eng. and massive hater of time wasting (boards.ie is my time to 'waste', not yours!) I've always been against electronic voting, for the physical reason that its easy to trick a machine and not know. You can literally fool all the people all of the time on the internet.
This makes me think is there a system that can do both.

How about paper voting, that is then fed into a machine and scanned, so you get the instant count moments after the polls close, and any irregularities can be worked through with the physicals / looking at scans.

i.e if we have a few thousand funny votes, it's relatively easy to put them in front of a panel of experts / judges to give a yey, nay.

Scanners are super cheap, the rest of it is encrypted and sent to a central counting system (a la a bank transfer), the physicals are counted as always and no one can think they were cheated? Solves the receipt problem of vote buying, the physical oddness of voting booths, and provides a simple to administer backup counting system (i.e. the good old way, with rubber bands and sweaty hands)

Anyway, to Dick and his FF douche bag brethren I say to you this:

Later douche bags!

gcgirl

How hard is it to fill a ballot paper ! if there is any descrepences on any ballot paper it should be spoiled, i also heard a lot of ballot papers were not properly franked

Alun

andrewdcs wrote: »

How about paper voting, that is then fed into a machine and scanned, so you get the instant count moments after the polls close, and any irregularities can be worked through with the physicals / looking at scans.

Didn't they try something similar to this in Scotland not that long ago? I can't remember the details but I seem to recall it wasn't exactly a resounding success.

wonderfulname

Alun wrote: »

Didn't they try something similar to this in Scotland not that long ago? I can't remember the details but I seem to recall it wasn't exactly a resounding success.

The machine called more votes spoilt than actually were.
To be honest I would have assumed with a system like this that would be assumed, and that the counting would be carried out under the assumption that all spoilt votes would be checked the old fashioned way.

Bannasidhe

Have some sympathy for poor Dick Roche - if your name translated into Penis Cardboardtubeinaspliff you have issues too.

InTheTrees

Alun wrote: »

Didn't they try something similar to this in Scotland not that long ago? I can't remember the details but I seem to recall it wasn't exactly a resounding success.

Machine counting. So your ballot is a kind of punch card and you poke a hole thats later read by a machine.

Those machines are really the origin of the "hanging chad" and the cause of so much grief in florida in 2000. All those frail old people in florida who didnt haev the strength to fully punch a hole in a piece of paper. And then there were alignment issues with the printing(!) and lining it up in the machine to punch the hole.

Although there is a paper trail. SO I'd rate it better than electronic voting.

wonderfulname

Anyway back to the matter at hand, whats going on in wicklow??

RTEs twitter says "Lots of legal types here. Ominous." I want to know whats happening!

Sierra Oscar

wonderfulname wrote: »

Anyway back to the matter at hand, whats going on in wicklow??

RTEs twitter says "Lots of legal types here. Ominous." I want to know whats happening!

Looks like there will be a battle over the disputed ballots.

jaffa20

wonderfulname wrote: »

Anyway back to the matter at hand, whats going on in wicklow??

RTEs twitter says "Lots of legal types here. Ominous." I want to know whats happening!

Scrutinising ballot papers no doubt. In other words, time wasting as they should be spoiled.

raymon

The FF core vote is primarily elderly or uneducated.

If spoilt votes are excluded then FF will get an even worse result

So count away Dick roche , you will not get in. You were a terrible politician anyway

SarahBM

any word yet? do ye think Dick Roache will get his wish, or was it all a waste of time?

Would it not be a good idea, that you electronic vote, when you press "Submit" it gives a print out, which could then be counted the old fashioned way as a back up?

DeVore

I'm only getting to this now.... Can anyone give me a serious, concise recap on what has happened since this morning? (Keep the jokes for Mr Roche, thanks).

Also, any links to the current count spreadsheet?

DeV.

wonderfulname

If only this has happened on saturday, the media would care enough to keep us decently abreast.

d'Oracle

DeVore wrote: »

I'm only getting to this now.... Can anyone give me a serious, concise recap on what has happened since this morning? (Keep the jokes for Mr Roche, thanks).

Also, any links to the current count spreadsheet?

DeV.

Recheck of ballots, by the request of Dick Roche TD, last night.
2500 ballots have been placed in "Quarantine" and are being individually adjudicated on by the RO.

Fitz thinks he shouldn't have done it.
A number of candidates have expressed concerns over the process.
Full recount is on the cards.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/lv?authkey=CNmA4JUO&hl=en&key=tJuOtPoe46JqAQJSEQHmxRQ&toomany=true

Also question over whether some ballots were Perforated properly.

d'Oracle

wonderfulname wrote: »

If only this has happened on saturday, the media would care enough to keep us decently abreast.

RTE has kept us well abreast via their live election count feed.

SarahBM

d'Oracle wrote: »

Recheck of ballots, by the request of Dick Roche TD, last night.
2500 ballots have been placed in "Quarantine" and are being individually adjudicated on by the RO.

Fitz thinks he shouldn't have done it.
A number of candidates have expressed concerns over the process.
Full recount is on the cards.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/lv?authkey=CNmA4JUO&hl=en&key=tJuOtPoe46JqAQJSEQHmxRQ&toomany=true

according to a guy on with matt cooper there was confusion over the lay out of the ballot paper, people filling in the blank box beside an independents pic, which is where a party logo should be but there is nothing there when its an ind.
the ballot paper was huge!

d'Oracle

SarahBM wrote: »

according to a guy on with matt cooper there was confusion over the lay out of the ballot paper, people filling in the blank box beside an independents pic, which is where a party logo should be but there is nothing there when its an ind.
the ballot paper was huge!

I know.
Speculative though.
And as much of a pain in the arse as it was, the size of the ballot paper should not really matter, bar maybe taking a little longer to count.

wonderfulname

d'Oracle wrote: »

RTE has kept us well abreast via their live election count feed.

Which I am half keeping an eye on myself, its great for statistics, not for news. I mean that had this been Saturday we would get more detailed information than some suits from some parties found some problems.

d'Oracle

wonderfulname wrote: »

Which I am half keeping an eye on myself, its great for statistics, not for news. I mean that had this been Saturday we would get more detailed information than some suits from some parties found some problems.

The service which has kept me the most up to date has been this: http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0228/election_count_live_monday.html

That's for news.
There has not been much, but right down to 2 updates on how the Laois Offaly candidates are getting tetchy about nothing happening its been there.

Mr.Micro

That big slug Roche cannot accept he has not been elected....the utter arrogance. Just fu*k off under a rock.

lucylu

SarahBM wrote: »

according to a guy on with matt cooper there was confusion over the lay out of the ballot paper, people filling in the blank box beside an independents pic, which is where a party logo should be but there is nothing there when its an ind.
the ballot paper was huge!

Ah there wasn't any confusion with the ballot paper.. it was large and awkward filling it out on the tiny booths.but not confusing..
If people were so stupid to vote 1-12 on both in both columns of ballot paper, honestly do they deserve a vote?

gcgirl

lucylu wrote: »

Ah there wasn't any confusion with the ballot paper.. it was large and awkward filling it out on the tiny booths.but not confusing..
If people were so stupid to vote 1-12 on both in both columns of ballot paper, honestly do they deserve a vote?

i would be inclined to agree with this

d'Oracle

lucylu wrote: »

Ah there wasn't any confusion with the ballot paper.. it was large and awkward filling it out on the tiny booths.but not confusing..
If people were so stupid to vote 1-12 on both in both columns of ballot paper, honestly do they deserve a vote?

This.
If you spoil the ballot, the ballot is spoiled.

Sala

If people were so stupid to vote 1-12 on both in both columns of ballot paper, honestly do they deserve a vote?

I would agree these type of ballots are spoiled- no real way to prove who they wanted to vote for. The problem is where people wrote the numbers in the empty boxes. This will affect independents obviously as they had an empty logo box, but I would have thought if it was consistent (ie: 1,2,3 in same areas) it shows a clear preference?

wonderfulname

Sala wrote: »

I would agree these type of ballots are spoiled- no real way to prove who they wanted to vote for. The problem is where people wrote the numbers in the empty boxes. This will affect independents obviously as they had an empty logo box, but I would have thought if it was consistent (ie: 1,2,3 in same areas) it shows a clear preference?

Yes I agree its a tough one, the ballots are technically spoilt but the voters intention is clear to see. Given the huge body of independents its an understandable enough mistake. Next time round a thin diagonal across the space for candidates without logos might be a smart idea.

donothoponpop

lucylu wrote: »

Ah there wasn't any confusion with the ballot paper.. it was large and awkward filling it out on the tiny booths.but not confusing..
If people were so stupid to vote 1-12 on both in both columns of ballot paper, honestly do they deserve a vote?

Have you seen a picture of it? I don't believe the major difficulty will be with the two columns. When in the booth, the first thing you are confronted with is a choice of boxes (for the non-party candidates). Which one do you fill out, the white box beside their name, or the identical white box beside their photograph? The small print tells you to fill the one beside their photo, but there's no such confusion with the party candidates, who have a party logo in place of where the independents have a white box.

Appalling design, if no logo was to go in the white box beside their names, it should have a printed cross, or "non-party", instead of presenting voters with a choice of identical white boxes for non-party candidates.

"Enemies of democracy", indeed.

johnny_ultimate

I'd agree that if the 'blank boxes' are proving to be an issue they should probably be counted if it's clear who is actually being voted for. I can see why candidates would argue against it, especially if the last seat is as tightly contested as it is looking to be. The 'legal types' twitter comment has me extremely curious I must say though, sounds like madness down there!

Who'd have thought it would take this long to count some numbers :pac:

hdowney

well in my polling station they TOLD people how to vote - i.e. b careful because there are some sections where there is no logo, such as for indos. they showed me (altho i already knew) which column of empty boxes were for the numbers.

i agree either 1-12 twice or numbers in the wrong box = a spoiled vote. sorry to be so blunt but thems the breaks. the people in all the polling stations should have informed each voter which column and remember there are two sides.

d'Oracle

donothoponpop wrote: »

Have you seen a picture of it? I don't believe the major difficulty will be with the two columns. When in the booth, the first thing you are confronted with is a choice of boxes (for the non-party candidates). Which one do you fill out, the white box beside their name, or the identical white box beside their photograph? The small print tells you to fill the one beside their photo, but there's no such confusion with the party candidates, who have a party logo in place of where the independents have a white box.

Appalling design, if no logo was to go in the white box beside their names, it should have a printed cross, or "non-party", instead of presenting voters with a choice of identical white boxes for non-party candidates.

"Enemies of democracy", indeed.

I looked at the candidates who were in parties and from this rather easily deduced that the box beside the picture was the one to fill in.
The instructions printed at the top backed this up.

I figured this out on my own whilst tired, excited and about to drive to Galway.

This really isn't an issue.

edanto

hdowney wrote: »

numbers in the wrong box = a spoiled vote.

What are you basing that on?

hdowney

edanto wrote: »

What are you basing that on?

what i mean by that is numbers in the party box instead of in the correct box for numbers. i can however see if it is obvious how the person intended their 1,2,3 etc to go (with some numbers in the correct boxes and some in the wrong) why the count centre staff would decide to keep them as ok votes. however now with all this hooha and recount business i can see that any vote that is not 'perfect' will be deemed a spoiled vote. so i think we can assume wicklow will have considerably more spoiled votes by the time we elect our five tds

johnny_ultimate

hdowney wrote: »

the people in all the polling stations should have informed each voter which column and remember there are two sides.

That's true, and it was pretty obvious what went where. But I don't remember being told where each thing went, and you can't assume everyone was told. Obviously, people should have been able to tell rather easily where to put the numbers, but at the same time if the ballot is readable even with the silly but somewhat understandable mistake, then I'd personally feel it should be counted.

Is there a precedent for such things out of curiosity, or indeed any specific documentation defining a spoiled vote?