Should Irish citizens be allowed to vote from abroad?

Reilly616

Just to give my 2c to the OP; I think that Irish citizens should be allowed to vote from abroad, but only if they are ordinarily resident in Ireland.

tba

Cavehill Red wrote: »

No representation without taxation.

So those on Social Welfare shouldn't get a vote either?

Reilly616

tba wrote: »

So those on Social Welfare shouldn't get a vote either?

Those on Social Welfare still buy goods and services, on which VAT is charged.

tba

I still get VAT charged on my pension contributions, would that count as as enough?

DoesNotCompute

magneticimpulse wrote: »

Yet the French and other EU countries citizens are allowed to vote from abroad?? Why should Ireland be any different? Im not pseudo Irish...its not my fault they give out the passports willy nilly to anybody. I intend on moving back to Ireland this year and would have done so earlier, only the dole is not as much as it is in France. I came to France under an EU University program, similar to Erasmus but for a Post Graduate degree. However I am now unemployed here because I am Science based and do not have enough French to do my job in "French"....im waiting for an opportunity to return to Ireland. The French benefit system want to help me return to Ireland...but with this attitude of the Irish...lock them out!! It doesnt really help does it?

Calm down, I actually agree with you...to a certain extent. Irish citizens living abroad should be allowed to vote for up to 3/4 after they leave. Just don't give the vote to people who have no interest in Ireland, apart from wanting to circumvent EU/UK immigration.

Graham Bright

Following a successful appeal by two Greek nationals living in France, the European convention on human rights ruled that it was unlawful not to allow Greek nationals to cast their vote from abroad. This means that Ireland will soon be the ONLY country in europe not allowing its citizens living abroad to cast their vote.

At a time when 1000 Irish people are emigrating per week, it is not fair that these people should be cast as less Irish.

munchkin_utd

aigh but, the greek constitution lays down that ex pats should have the right to vote.
(EDIT- and that was enacted in 1975!!)
The problem was that the government, by laziness or strategically convienent, didnt enact any methods for people to actually cast their vote abroad.
http://strasbourgobservers.com/2010/07/14/expatriates%E2%80%99-voting-rights-greece-below-common-denominator/

Sounds a little like the government in Ireland, its too much hassle to be giving the vote to the irish abroad ( not to mention they might be angry vindictive buggers and vote for someone who might actually reform the mess that ireland is in.... anyhow)
Every issue is seen as an insurmountable problem. So better sit on your hands and let the pesky emmigrants float off into the distance.

Because why would someone, born bred and raised in Ireland, who follows irish current affairs as closely as anyone at home, who has strong family links to ireland NOT want to have a say in the future of the country.

I'm 32, have a child and another due in the summer.
At some stage soon enough we are thinking of moving home (after 11 years already abroad)
I would like to think that I have every much a vested interest in how Ireland is governed.
Government is not just the levying of taxes and the provision of services.
(thats pretty much an image of a cononial government, where the colony has bugger all say in the bigger picture, which incidentally what caused the boston tea party)
Ireland is self governing. Which mean the government policy now, its strategies and philosophy, shapes the country for generations to come.
"We" can choose what way Ireland goes.

Unfortunately, the "we" with regards to Ireland is limited to the ones resident in the 26 counties.
The rest of the Irish are on the sidelines watching from the outside, with no say in the future but every much a vested interest in seeing that Ireland becomes a prosperous safe and nice place to live in.

115 other countries have thought different and decided that all citizens (or in some cases like germany, citizens who shown a strong connection to the state by being former resident) should have the vote and a say in the future of their homeland.

Graham Bright

My voting card just arrived BACK IN IRELAND, nice that the Irish government thinks about me. :mad:

johno2

johnmcdnl wrote: »

can you give me a single reason why someone who doesn't even live in the country should have a vote in this country??

I was out of the country on holidays during the 2002 election and I tried to organise a postal vote before I left. I was told I had to be an airline pilot or truck driver to get a postal vote. Why should my right to vote depend on my profession?

johno

enda1

johno2 wrote: »

I was out of the country on holidays during the 2002 election and I tried to organise a postal vote before I left. I was told I had to be an airline pilot or truck driver to get a postal vote. Why should my right to vote depend on my profession?

johno

He said someone who doesn't live in the country, not someone who's away on business/holiday.

Graham Bright

Hi John,

I contacted the Irish embassy here in Vienna and also my local politician in Wexford. All the info you need is here:-

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/voting/registering_to_vote.html

Basically,

Unless you are a diplomat (there are other very limited exceptions) you cannot vote from abroad. Additionally, you must have been resident in the State on the 1st of September the preceding year to be able to allowed to vote.

There are around 120 democracies in the world according to the World Forum on Democracy. Besides Greece Ireland is the ONLY European country who does NOT ALLOW its citizens to vote abroad. Two Greek nationals had their case told at the European convention on human rights, and Greece is now in the process of changing its legislation.

With 1000 people living emigrating from Ireland to countries like Australia every week, they must surrender their right to vote and have no hope of influencing the election in Ireland.

I live in Austria and in 1989 the Austrian Constitutional Court ruled that Austrians residing abroad are politically equal to Austrians residing in Austria. Austrians have the right to a postal vote.


Irish emigrates have no right to vote, have no say in any elections i.e lisbon treaty, Irish general election 2011.

No Irish politican seems interested in changing this in the future.

Graham. :mad:

goz83

Cavehill Red wrote: »

No representation without taxation.

And what about those who remain on the dole for years with no intention of ever finding work? (This is not aimed at anyone genuinely seeking work, or who cannot work for medical reasons). Why should they have a vote by your reckoning?

The way I see it is like this; If you're entitled to an Irish Passport, you're entitled to an Irish Vote. At the very least, if an Irish person is living abroad, they should be able to vote for a period of atleast 5 years. This is especially true for those who were forced to leave. FF would not win a single seat if those who were forced to leave the country could vote. This is why we hae no overseas voting system insitu.

Graham Bright

By law citizens of America living abroad must file a tax return regardless of where they live. However only in excess of 80k dollars are Americans liable for tax abroad.

Every Britisih citizen who has been registered to vote in the UK within the last 15 years is eligible to vote in UK elections.

Countries like Ghana, Mexico or the Dominican Republic allow their citizens to vote from abroad.

ONCE YOU EMIGRATE YOUR VOTE IS LOST FORGOTTEN NOT WANTED; NOT NEEDED.

:mad:
Originally Posted by Cavehill Red
No representation without taxation.

johno2

enda1 wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by johno2
I was out of the country on holidays during the 2002 election and I tried to organise a postal vote before I left. I was told I had to be an airline pilot or truck driver to get a postal vote. Why should my right to vote depend on my profession?

johno

He said someone who doesn't live in the country, not someone who's away on business/holiday.

Thread topic is about voting from abroad. If voting from abroad is going to happen surely residents who spend 98% of their time in Ireland should be included before immigrants.

John

Graham Bright

At least I got my point across on liveline.

Cant vote but at least I tried to do something

Graham Bright

Wednesday 23rd February

Emigration once again:

All this week liveline listeners called in with their stories about emigration. Today's callers were from as far afield as Chicago and Vienna, and many spoke about the need for Irish citizens overseas to be allowed vote in elections here. Paul Clancy told joe about how emigration has come full circle for him, nine of his sibling emigrated and now his own children are leaving. he felt let down by the political system here. Denis McSweeney had just returend from Australia where he visited his two sons who are living there now. He spoke about the sadness of those he met, many of whom now realise they might have little to return to in Ireland. Other callers felt strongly about the loss of Ireland's bright young future. Graham Bright called from Vienna to tell Joe about his frustration at not being allowed to vote from abroad.

Economicexile

rugbyman wrote: »

No, nor can I think of any reason why they should.

Regards, Rugbyman

The reason I am living abroad is because of current economic crisis in Ireland caused by the current government. I want them to be held accountable and to be able to vote in a government which would allow me to return to my place of birth. Is that a valid reason?

DoesNotCompute

Economicexile wrote: »

The reason I am living abroad is because of current economic crisis in Ireland caused by the current government. I want them to be held accountable and to be able to vote in a government which would allow me to return to my place of birth. Is that a valid reason?

Not being smart here, but how are the current govt not allowing you to return?

irelandrover

Economicexile wrote: »

The reason I am living abroad is because of current economic crisis in Ireland caused by the current government. I want them to be held accountable and to be able to vote in a government which would allow me to return to my place of birth. Is that a valid reason?

In my opinion No. You left the country. Even if you had to leave to get a job it is still a choice you made. Just because in the future you might return does not mean you should have a say in how the country is currently run. How long after you leave should you be allowed vote? What about someone who left 20 years ago and has no plans to ever return. Should they be allowed vote in the running of the country?

For the people that are resident in Ireland and are on holidays I do think they should be allowed a postal vote.

Zubeneschamali

irelandrover wrote: »

How long after you leave should you be allowed vote? What about someone who left 20 years ago and has no plans to ever return. Should they be allowed vote in the running of the country?

Perhaps we could look at other European democracies to see how they handle this issue.

irelandrover

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Perhaps we could look at other European democracies to see how they handle this issue.

Or perhaps we can make our own decisions. How long do you think you should retain the vote after you leave the country.

For the record I live abroad and I think once I left the country I should not be allowed to vote in local or national elections.

Economicexile

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Calm down, I actually agree with you...to a certain extent. Irish citizens living abroad should be allowed to vote for up to 3/4 after they leave. Just don't give the vote to people who have no interest in Ireland, apart from wanting to circumvent EU/UK immigration.

I work in a very specific industry which used to thrive in Ireland. Due to economic decline industry was not able to survive in Ireland. That should never have happened. Through economic reform and probably 6 yrs recovery hopefully I will be able to return to Ireland again but not by the Irish government bailing out banks that work to line their pockets and not work for the good of the country. Restructure banks then give them bailout. They cannot expect to make people homeless that cannot pay their mortgage while sticking their hands out to take tax payers money because they have not got enough money..

Zubeneschamali

irelandrover wrote: »

Or perhaps we can make our own decisions.

We can, but since everyone else does it differently, we might think about who's out of step, us or everyone else.

Graham Bright

I believe it is very important to give the vote to people living abroad. It is the duty of the government to provide an environment to encourage Irish citizens who have left Ireland to return to Ireland i.e. improved economic circumstances.

What message is Ireland sending to its citizens abroad by that allowing them to vote. Maybe people living abroad would like to use their vote to change the political landscape in Ireland, influence laws such as tax for small business, incentives etc.

At the moment why would Irish entrepreneur living in Australia want to come home if he/she cannot influence anything.

i finished college with a degree 2 and a half years ago, i was stuck on the dole. i got an offer to go and work in South Africa so i took it and emigrated in january 2009.

now my question to people who say i shouldn't be allowed is would you rather me stay in Ireland on the dole or go and work. i intend to move back to Ireland when things improve, no point me going back now to sit on the dole. i estimate 5 years is a timeframe i hope to be back, thought it would be 5 years when i first left but we all know what happened in between. i intend to come back and buy a house with money i earned outside of Ireland, little as it may seem in the grand scale of things but at least i will be bringing in foreign earned money to invest in a property in Ireland.

so yes i should be allowed to go to the irish embassy in Pretoria and cast my vote. i had to leave due to economic reasons and intend to come home when things improve and invest my money earned back into the irish economy. i also have come home 3 times since i left, 2 times being at xmas and contributed to the economy by buying clothes, going to the pubs, giving money to my family.

there is plenty of people abroad sending money home, i quiet frequently go to tesco.ie and buy groceries for my mam, so i am still contributing.
i feel every expat, fair enough there needs to be a ceiling, should have a vote. here in the 2009 elections in SA, all south africans abroad had a vote. Why? because many would like to return but don't feel the circumstances are right at the moment.

enda1

Graham Bright wrote: »

I believe it is very important to give the vote to people living abroad. It is the duty of the government to provide an environment to encourage Irish citizens who have left Ireland to return to Ireland i.e. improved economic circumstances.

What message is Ireland sending to its citizens abroad by that allowing them to vote. Maybe people living abroad would like to use their vote to change the political landscape in Ireland, influence laws such as tax for small business, incentives etc.

At the moment why would Irish entrepreneur living in Australia want to come home if he/she cannot influence anything.

I live abroad and I would change taxation to make it cheap for me to come to Ireland on holidays.

So:

• I'd get rid of the landing charges and lower airport taxes all-round.
• I'd lower VAT, excise duty and fuel tax.
• I'd make bus, rail, tram free or else really cheap to make it easier for me to travel around Ireland on the cheap. But not at commuter times, cause I don't travel then - the workers do so they can pay.
• Oh and I'd lower the passport application fee cause I still need one to travel to Ireland.
• I'd make up for the shortfall in taxation by taxing to pieces the workers in
• Ireland (after all I don't live there so wont be suffering the austerity). Plus I'd introduce full university fees, property tax, etc.

Do you not see anything wrong with this situation??

Non-residents should not be allowed vote in parliamentary, council or MEP elections! Referenda, presidential etc. I think they should be allowed because they are more about defining what the country is rather than how it is run on a day-to-day basis.

Zubeneschamali

enda1 wrote: »

Do you not see anything wrong with this situation??

It's completely unrealistic, and hasn't happened in all the other EU countries which have voting rights for citizens abroad.

Graham Bright

Hi Keeffo,

This is exactly the reason why you should be allowed to vote.

Ireland is the only country in Europe that doesn't allow this. :mad:

Graham

Graham Bright

irelandrover wrote: »

In my opinion No. You left the country. Even if you had to leave to get a job it is still a choice you made. Just because in the future you might return does not mean you should have a say in how the country is currently run. How long after you leave should you be allowed vote? What about someone who left 20 years ago and has no plans to ever return. Should they be allowed vote in the running of the country?

For the people that are resident in Ireland and are on holidays I do think they should be allowed a postal vote.

Its this type of attitude that is one of the reasons why Irish politics is so backward. A framework which allows people to vote depending on the number of years abroad etc would be needed.

munchkin_utd

Graham Bright wrote: »

Its this type of attitude that is one of the reasons why Irish politics is so backward. A framework which allows people to vote depending on the number of years abroad etc would be needed.

I think the system already in place for diplomats is a fair basis to use.
(and if its good enough for our public servants....ahem...)

There is no limit to the length of time that the right to a vote from abroad exists for public servants abroad.

the idea that someone away for 1 year is more in touch with Ireland than after 3 or 5 or 10 is not valid in my opinion.
The internet nowadays allows EVERYONE abroad, regardless of the length of time abroad to keep acutely in touch with irish current affairs, whether print, word or video based media.

Any Irish I know here in Munich who are here 20+ years, are just as clued up about what is going on in Ireland as anyone who has recently emigrated, and I would dare say more clued up than many still resident in Ireland.

Germany bases their voting rights based upon Citizenship PLUS a proveable residence of a certain period in the state in the past(and is not time limited).

It wouldnt be a bad model to copy, as it would eliminate ALL people who have never lived in the state and thus are likely to not have much of a working knowledge of the parties or politics. (you would simply be re-entered in the last constituency where you were previously entered/ resident in the republic)

The millions of citizens between Northern Ireland/ UK/ USA etc who are Irish in identity but not Irish by politics (if that makes sense) thus would NOT be influencing elections in which they dont know much about.
[watch Gerry Adams from the tv debates before the last election to see how even northern politicans are clueless about southern politics & economy. It would be unfortunately a good demonstration as to why you DO need to be careful about a blanket vote for all citizens]

Also, no new structures would be needed as the constituencies would remain as they are.

Easy peasy