C&H General Election Thread

randylonghorn

I completely take your point, Mavis.

On the other hand there is the concept of civil disobedience to protest or to campaign ... for example, how would you have felt about the famous "contraceptive train" in 1971, which not alone carried such well-known names as Nell McCafferty and Mary Kenny, but Mary Robinson, who was later to be President of Ireland? Each of those ~40 women were technically criminals, after all!

MavisDavis

randylonghorn wrote: »

I completely take your point, Mavis.

On the other hand there is the concept of civil disobedience to protest or to campaign ... for example, how would you have felt about the famous "contraceptive train" in 1971, which not alone carried such well-known names as Nell McCafferty and Mary Kenny, but Mary Robinson, who was later to be President of Ireland? Each of those ~40 women were technically criminals, after all!

I'll take your point about civil disobedience, but I don't think you can really compare contraceptives and drugs here. After all, it wasn't illegal to use contraception in 1971, just to import or manufacture it. On the other hand, it is illegal to possess cannabis.

randylonghorn

It was two years later though that the Supreme Court affirmed that there was a constitutional right to marital privacy which also allowed for the use of contraceptives ... even though it *still* upheld the law forbidding their import or sale!

And it was most certainly illegal to import contraceptives, and that's what they did, and deliberately did as publicly as possible!

It caused much more public furore at the time than Ming has ever managed: just as an example, the Bishop of Clonfert publicly said that "... never before, and certainly not since penal times, was the Catholic heritage of Ireland subjected to so many insidious onslaughts on the pretext of conscience, civil rights and women's liberation."

Hyperbole or wha'?

Look, as I said, I can see where you're coming from, and I even half agree. I'm just pointing out that life is seldom black and white, easy though it might be if it were. Those women deliberately and flagrantly broke the law at the time to make a point, and their actions were instrumental in getting the law changed, even if what we then got was an interim "Irish solution to an Irish problem". They were seen as heroines by many at the time, and equally they were seen as Satan's spawn by many others (by both the lawmakers and those who implemented the law, they were seen mainly as an embarrassment!).

Flanagan is at the same trick: he speaks publicly about his breaking of the law (probably does more talking than breaking tbh!) in an effort to spur debate / action / change. To some he's a hero, to some he's the spawn of the devil ... and to the lawmakers and enforcers, he is, once again, an embarrassment they wish would STFU!

jumpguy

30 minute adjournment...30 minute adjournment.

Christ, do FG-Labour 1.0 not realise I have work to do?!

randylonghorn

Enda Kenny - Taoiseach

Eamon Gilmore - Tánaiste & Foreign Affairs and Trade

Michael Noonan - Finance.

Brendan Howlin - Public Expenditure and Reform

Richard Bruton - Enterprise, Jobs and Innovation.

Ruairi Quinn - Education and skills.

Frances Fitzgerald - Children

James Reilly - Health

Phil Hogan - Environment, Community and Local Government.

Leo Vardakar - Transport, Tourism and Sport.

Jimmy Deenihan - Arts, Heritage and Gaeltacht Affairs

Alan Shatter - Justice, Equality and Defence

Simon Coveney - Agriculture, Marine and Food

Joan Burton - Social Protection

Pat Rabbitte - Communicatuions, Energy and Natural Resources

Willie Penrose - Super Junior Minister at Department at Environment with responsibility for Housing and Planning (will sit at Cabinet)

Paul Keogh - Chief Whip

randylonghorn

randylonghorn wrote: »

The next Minister for Finance will need to be as much a diplomat as an economic brain, which lets Joan right out. Best Labour choice for Finance would be Quinn, he has the experience ... but it will probably be Richard Bruton or Michael Noonan from FG.

If I were Kenny or Gilmore, I would be plopping Joan in Social Welfare or maybe even Health. Both would be close to her heart, as I said she is a hard worker, and capable in her own way, and she has a dog-after-a-bone attitude which would probably stand her in good stead in either department.

Hah! :cool:

I wonder could I sting Enda for a consultancy fee! :pac:

Aoibheann

The only two female ministers are for Children and Social Protection.

Oh lol. Change my ass. In fact, it's worse than before.

Edit: I'm not dissing these obviously hugely important roles.. But we were promised change and this looks like yet another sign that it ain't a-comin'.

MavisDavis

Aoibheann wrote: »

The two female ministers are for Children and Social Protection.

Oh lol. Change my ass. In fact, it's worse than before.

I can see the vague irony with a woman being Minister for Children, but I must be missing something with the Social Protection joke..

Two female ministers and the first female Attorney General. I'm happy enough with that. Obviously there could have been one or two more, but there are only 23 women in the Dáil in total (abysmal number). I don't think a load of them should be placed in the cabinet just for having certain reproductive organs.
Competent people are now in cabinet (well, here's hoping..)

On the gender equality thing, women need to get themselves more involved in politics. According to figures only 15% of the candidates in the election were female. Now how are we ever going to run with dismal figures like that?

bythewoods

MavisDavis wrote: »

I can see the vague irony with a woman being Minister for Children, but I must be missing something with the Social Protection joke..

Two female ministers and the first female Attorney General. I'm happy enough with that. Obviously there could have been one or two more, but there are only 23 women in the Dáil in total (abysmal number). I don't think a load of them should be placed in the cabinet just for having certain reproductive organs.
Competent people are now in cabinet (well, here's hoping..)

On the gender equality thing, women need to get themselves more involved in politics. According to figures only 15% of the candidates in the election were female. Now how are we ever going to run with dismal figures like that?

Very much so agree with your point. People have been saying it's awful that more women aren't in the cabinet, but in fairness, positive discrimination would still be discrimination.
And yes, they were lumped into "typical" women jobs, but that's probably where they'll excel.

However, Irish politics in general isn't overly woman friendly. Yeah, very few ran in comparison to men, but the fact that people like Ivana Bacick didn't get in despite her brilliance (and I'm not even a labour supporter) does say a lot.

In other news, Varadker got in. Good. I'm properly in love with how cold, austere and efficient he is. So much love. LOVE. The Naked Election show really swayed me to the VARADKER4LIFE side.

Aoibheann

MavisDavis wrote: »

I can see the vague irony with a woman being Minister for Children, but I must be missing something with the Social Protection joke..

Two female ministers and the first female Attorney General. I'm happy enough with that. Obviously there could have been one or two more, but there are only 23 women in the Dáil in total (abysmal number). I don't think a load of them should be placed in the cabinet just for having certain reproductive organs.
Competent people are now in cabinet (well, here's hoping..)

On the gender equality thing, women need to get themselves more involved in politics. According to figures only 15% of the candidates in the election were female. Now how are we ever going to run with dismal figures like that?

Social Protection is stemming from the previous role of "Social and Family Affairs", which was previously in the hands of Hanafin (and then Ó Cuiv briefly, but you get the point). Now see where I'm coming from? I'm sure both women will be good in their roles, but I'd like to see women getting some of the top positions.

I completely see your point of view in that more women should run. I absolutely agree. I think more women need to be encouraged to run. The Dáil has been an old boys club for so long that I think a lot of women are afraid to run. As well as that, even if women do run, they struggle to get elected - women are actually more likely to vote for a man than a women, and men also tend to vote for men. Why? Are we seen as less competent? I mean, Jesus, I'd do a better job of Finance than most of the previous Ministers.. But I wouldn't have a hope of seeing that position unless I decide on a hostile takeover of the country.

The parties themselves go on and on about wanting more women to run. But they haven't actually done a whole pile to encourage them. The environment, the nature of the Dáíl does need to be changed, and not just in the way FG and Labour are insisting.

So far, from their joint plan for government and today's announcement of the cabinet, I'm not too hopeful that things will be different.

amacachi

bythewoods wrote: »

However, Irish politics in general isn't overly woman friendly. Yeah, very few ran in comparison to men, but the fact that people like Ivana Bacick didn't get in despite her brilliance (and I'm not even a labour supporter) does say a lot.

Her being a woman had nothing to do with not getting elected, there's a long thread on the politics forum about her, not everyone sees her in the way you do. I wonder if she'll go back to double-jobbing with the Seanad.

amacachi

Aoibheann wrote: »

I completely see your point of view in that more women should run. I absolutely agree. I think more women need to be encouraged to run. The Dáil has been an old boys club for so long that I think a lot of women are afraid to run. As well as that, even if women do run, they struggle to get elected - women are actually more likely to vote for a man than a women, and men also tend to vote for men. Why? Are we seen as less competent? I mean, Jesus, I'd do a better job of Finance than most of the previous Ministers.. But I wouldn't have a hope of seeing that position unless I decide on a hostile takeover of the country.

15% of candidates were women and a quick count suggests 15% of successful candidates were women so I'm guessing that if women are more like to vote for men than men must be more likely to vote for women since each gender has the same success rate.

Aoibheann

amacachi wrote: »

15% of candidates were women and a quick count suggests 15% of successful candidates were women so I'm guessing that if women are more like to vote for men than men must be more likely to vote for women since each gender has the same success rate.

Hmmm, interesting, fair point.

It's something that has been pointed out to me before and I've certainly noticed it happening in a lot of elections I've been involved in (Seanad and SU mainly), but perhaps that trend has changed! That would be nice.

amacachi

Aoibheann wrote: »

Hmmm, interesting, fair point.

It's something that has been pointed out to me before and I've certainly noticed it happening in a lot of elections I've been involved in (Seanad and SU mainly), but perhaps that trend has changed! That would be nice.

TBH I treat most things like that with a lot of skepticism when it comes to politics because the theories can never be properly tested with secret voting but they hang around long after (if they ever were) accurate.

EDIT: Another point to make is the same as in many cases when men or women are underrepresented in something is that it takes time for things to change. I'll not mention other things but in politics even if the number of women standing for election increased one would expect a delay before more were elected, building a base etc. Same with cabinet posts, first-time TDs are unlikely to (and generally shouldn't) be given a cabinet job.

Aoibheann

amacachi wrote: »

TBH I treat most things like that with a lot of skepticism when it comes to politics because the theories can never be properly tested with secret voting but they hang around long after (if they ever were) accurate.

Believe me, people are not very good at secret voting. I've been asked on numerous occasions to tell people how they should vote, people have filled in their ballot papers right in front of my eyes, discussed with their friends in the queue how they're going to vote (this all drives me insane).

It can't be just a myth if there's truth behind it!

EDIT:

amacachi wrote: »

EDIT: Another point to make is the same as in many cases when men or women are underrepresented in something is that it takes time for things to change. I'll not mention other things but in politics even if the number of women standing for election increased one would expect a delay before more were elected, building a base etc. Same with cabinet posts, first-time TDs are unlikely to (and generally shouldn't) be given a cabinet job.

And that's another good point. Your very first line needs to be addressed by the government and all the parties though. I have no problem in waiting for a catch-up in things if the original issue of under-representation is addressed! I just don't think it's going to happen any time soon (and I'm not just implicating FG and Labour here, every party needs to do something about this), which frustrates me no end. >.<

KnifeWRENCH

randylonghorn wrote: »

Enda Kenny - Taoiseach

My feelings toward Kenny have improved from intense hatred to mild dislike in the past year or so. If he does a good job as Taoiseach, I may even reach the lofty heights of indifference towards him.

Eamon Gilmore - Tánaiste & Foreign Affairs and Trade

I like Gilmore. I just hope Labour don't become silent partners in this coalition.

Michael Noonan - Finance.

Would have preferred Richard Bruton, who I think knows the economy better. But Noonan is a decent man. I trust him to be honest with the public, at least.

Brendan Howlin - Public Expenditure and Reform

Bit surprised here. Was expecting Joan Burton to get this.

Richard Bruton - Enterprise, Jobs and Innovation.

Grand

Ruairi Quinn - Education and skills.

Grand, though I'd say Fergus O'Dowd feels a little bitter that he doesn't have that position.

Frances Fitzgerald - Children

No particular opinion of her, but Minister for Children is a rather unnecessary position imo. Don't see why it couldn't have stayed slotted under Health. Or even put in the remit of Education or Social Protection.

James Reilly - Health

No surprise there. I really hope he does well here; his expereinces as a doctor surely mean he knows the health service and what it needs better than his predecessors did.

Phil Hogan - Environment, Community and Local Government.

Don't know anything about him tbh. I'm sure he's fine.

Leo Vardakar - Transport, Tourism and Sport.

OLOLOLOLOL.

The most arrogant and obnoxious man in Dáil Éireann (who just happens to be a borderline racist) is the new man in charge of Irish tourism? You couldn't make this up. :rolleyes:
I would have a lot more respect for Kenny if he gave Varadkar what he deserves: no cabinet position whatsoever.

Jimmy Deenihan - Arts, Heritage and Gaeltacht Affairs

Another one I know nothing about.

Alan Shatter - Justice, Equality and Defence

I thought perhaps Labour would have landed this one. Also interesting to see these three portfolios thrown together. I'm just glad Lucinda Creighton didn't get equality (or, indeed, anything else!)

Simon Coveney - Agriculture, Marine and Food

Was hoping Seán Sherlock would get this.

Joan Burton - Social Protection

Heh, can't wait to see her "haranguing" benefit fraudsters.

Pat Rabbitte - Communicatuions, Energy and Natural Resources

:mad: Very small position for a man of Rabbitte's calibre. Would have liked to have seen him land something bigger, like Justice.

Willie Penrose - Super Junior Minister at Department at Environment with responsibility for Housing and Planning (will sit at Cabinet)

Paul Keogh - Chief Whip

Super Junior Minister - awesome job title! :cool: And to this day, I'm still not actually sure what a chief whip does.

tl;dr version:
Needs moar Sherlock. And much less Varadkar.
Otherwise, no real complaints.

randylonghorn

I have to say, Aoibheann, I think Social Protection is exactly the right portfolio for Joan Bruton and vice versa, and that has nothing whatsoever to do with her gender ... and at the moment (as opposed to 5 years ago) it's a pivotal ministry (especially if the FÁS training and re-training functions are transferred to it, as seems to be the plan from the Programme for Government). I think she'll do a lot of good there, and is probably happy enough with that post.

I do see your point re: appointing a woman to Children, it's a bit stereotypical all right.

I have to admit I'm another who would have been surprised and not entirely happy to see Bacik elected or indeed at that table, and that has nothing whatsoever to do with her being a woman. She's intelligent, yes, but not necessarily at a practical day-to-day level.

I'd be more disappointed not to see Roisín Shortall there tbh ... but I guess Labour just ran out of chairs at the table, it would be difficult to leave out Quinn, Howlin or Rabbitte. I would certainly expect and hope to see her get a decent junior ministry. Wouldn't surprise me unduly to see Ann Phelan take a junior post either, though she's a new TD.

One of the reasons I suspect why there is so few women at the main table is that FG, with most of the chairs at their gift, don't seem to have too many strong female candidates for them. Or am I missing someone obvious?

amacachi

Aoibheann wrote: »

Believe me, people are not very good at secret voting. I've been asked on numerous occasions to tell people how they should vote, people have filled in their ballot papers right in front of my eyes, discussed with their friends in the queue how they're going to vote (this all drives me insane).

It can't be just a myth if there's truth behind it!

Funny enough I've had the opposite experience over the last while where previously a lot of people would say how they were going to vote I've noticed a lot more who won't. In a lecture we were asked how we were going to vote and around 50% were going to vote but didn't say which way. There were more people saying they'd vote Green than FG which gave me a good lol. :pac:

And that's another good point. Your very first line needs to be addressed by the government and all the parties though. I have no problem in waiting for a catch-up in things if the original issue of under-representation is addressed! I just don't think it's going to happen any time soon (and I'm not just implicating FG and Labour here, every party needs to do something about this), which frustrates me no end. >.<

Well I dunno, I find the reasons given are often the usual half-hearted hand-waving reasons given for most gender imbalances. It's down to women (people) to put themselves forward to get elected. The electorate seem to be ready for it.

amacachi

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

Super Junior Minister - awesome job title! :cool:

It's a silly way of getting around the constitution. :pac:

And to this day, I'm still not actually sure what a chief whip does.

Tells everyone to vote along the party lines or GTFO. On tight votes they might offer an incentive for a vote. Should be a handy number this term.

Aoibheann

randylonghorn wrote: »

I have to say, Aoibheann, I think Social Protection is exactly the right portfolio for Joan Bruton and vice versa, and that has nothing whatsoever to do with her gender ... and at the moment (as opposed to 5 years ago) it's a pivotal ministry (especially if the FÁS training and re-training functions are transferred to it, as seems to be the plan from the Programme for Government). I think she'll do a lot of good there, and is probably happy enough with that post.

I probably would have been happier with Fitzgerald in that position, with her background, but tbf I do agree that Burton can probably do a good job - much as I dislike her, she's stubborn and will get the job done. I can respect that.

I was never disputing the fact that the two women will do a good job! I'm just taking issue with the insistence that there's a huge change happening when the cabinet for a large part was hugely predictable, and somewhat disappointing. I'm hugely disappointed (and not remotely shocked) that Bruton wasn't picked for Finance. I think he could have done a lot of good in that role. Way to show your fear, Mr. Kenny.

In general, I'm just hugely frustrated, and the first thing I picked up on is that women were given their standard roles! :P

randylonghorn wrote: »

I'd be more disappointed not to see Roisín Shortall there tbh ... but I guess Labour just ran out of chairs at the table, it would be difficult to leave out Quinn, Howlin or Rabbitte. I would certainly expect and hope to see her get a decent junior ministry. Wouldn't surprise me unduly to see Ann Phelan take a junior post either, though she's a new TD.

Agreed on everything here. Hopefully, Shortall could get something in a later reshuffle, or perhaps in a second term (if there is one) of this goverment.

I wasn't disappointed about Bacik, if I'm being perfectly honest. I've seen people I know absolutely devastated that she wasn't elected, which I didn't get.

randylonghorn wrote: »

One of the reasons I suspect why there is so few women at the main table is that FG, with most of the chairs at their gift, don't seem to have too many strong female candidates for them. Or am I missing someone obvious?

Nope, I think you made a fair point. I guess Creighton would have been seen as a strong candidate for them, but, well, she kinda shot herself in the foot, and I'm very, very glad she's not part of the cabinet.

FG really do need to get the ball rolling on encouraging women to run. They are the senior partners in government, so they will hopefully be some of the first to implement some change. FF are allegedly planning to do this, so I can't see FG wanting to be upstaged... :pac:

jumpguy

Cool to see a North Kerry-West Limerick candidate get a place in the cabinet (Jimmy Deenihan).

Overall I'm pleased with the cabinet. Not very pleased with the first meeting of the 31st Dáil though, from the very off there was an arrogant snobbishness about the new government. When they asked for 30 minutes extra and Gerry Adams opposed it he got back some smart-alik answer.

Same when Micheál Martin (who did an outstanding job in the first meeting, from what I saw) told Enda that it was retarded they couldn't ask questions on Tuesday. What was that about? Enda then had a weird embarrassing backpedal.

Then Enda made a rather good opening speech...

Not an encouraging start, but we'll see how it goes. For the next 5 years.

amacachi

jumpguy wrote: »

Cool to see a North Kerry-West Limerick candidate get a place in the cabinet (Jimmy Deenihan).

We've gone from Ceann Comhairle, Minister for Justice (and other ****), and opposition spokesman for education to nothing. And one of those nothings is Gerry Adams. Sigh.

Aoibheann

amacachi wrote: »

It's down to women (people) to put themselves forward to get elected. The electorate seem to be ready for it.

I do think women should put themselves forward, but I do think there needs to be an environment a bit more conducive to them doing so. More of a meeting half-way.

I'd run in a heartbeat if I thought there was a party that I could run for, while still maintaining my own moral standards (and maybe there will be by then). But I'm the sort of person who isn't afraid of a little gender imbalance. Feck it, when I was doing medicine, I wanted to be a surgeon - king of old boys' clubs! :P Unfortunately though, not every woman interested in running is quite as confident/arrogant as myself. :pac:

amacachi

Aoibheann wrote: »

I do think women should put themselves forward, but I do think there needs to be an environment a bit more conducive to them doing so. More of a meeting half-way.

I'd run in a heartbeat if I thought there was a party that I could run for, while still maintaining my own moral standards (and maybe there will be by then). But I'm the sort of person who isn't afraid of a little gender imbalance. Feck it, when I was doing medicine, I wanted to be a surgeon - king of old boys' clubs! :P Unfortunately though, not every woman interested in running is quite as confident/arrogant as myself. :pac:

If I end up settled with kids and yer one has a career with potential to support the family on her own I'd be happy being a stay-at-home dad. However I don't want the government to encourage others to do it.

KnifeWRENCH

randylonghorn wrote: »

One of the reasons I suspect why there is so few women at the main table is that FG, with most of the chairs at their gift, don't seem to have too many strong female candidates for them. Or am I missing someone obvious?

Olivia Mitchell possibly would have gotten something if she hadn't been part of the "attempt to heave Kenny" debacle.

I know there are quite a few new FG TDs who are female; maybe they'll rise up through the ranks in years to come. If Kenny had a sense of humour though, he'd have given Transport to Mary Mitchell O'Connor! I really hope she turns that "driving down the plinth" thing into an annual tradition. :pac:

Also, I'd +1 Shortall as being a potential reshuffle appointee. She's a good speaker and has a refreshing, no nonsense attitude.

Aoibheann

amacachi wrote: »

If I end up settled with kids and yer one has a career with potential to support the family on her own I'd be happy being a stay-at-home dad. However I don't want the government to encourage others to do it.

Fair enough, I'll respectfully disagree.

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

If Kenny had a sense of humour

Bahahahahahah... :P

KnifeWRENCH

amacachi wrote: »

We've gone from Ceann Comhairle, Minister for Justice (and other ****), and opposition spokesman for education to nothing. And one of those nothings is Gerry Adams. Sigh.

Cork East has had nothing for years; Ned "Babe is ruining the pork industry" O'Keeffe was Minister of State in Agriculture for a while, but that's about it.

I was hoping Seán Sherlock would get agriculture, but it just occurred to me now that David Stanton was actually FG party spokesman on Defence. If they hadn't squished Justice and Defence together, Stanton may have gotten a role.

*shrug*

randylonghorn

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

:mad: Very small position for a man of Rabbitte's calibre. Would have liked to have seen him land something.

I agree.

But on the other hand, this country seriously needs to get up to speed on sustainable / renewable energy, and it's an area where there are potential jobs in the short to medium-term, so if he gets his teeth into it, he could do some good.

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

And to this day, I'm still not actually sure what a chief whip does.

Regimental Sergeant-Major!

Whips the troops into line, makes sure legislation gets through, people turn up to vote, is the party leader's disciplinarian and hatchet-man!

amacachi

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

Cork East has had nothing for years; Ned "Babe is ruining the pork industry" O'Keeffe was Minister of State in Agriculture for a while, but that's about it.

I was hoping Seán Sherlock would get agriculture, but it just occurred to me now that David Stanton was actually FG party spokesman on Defence. If they hadn't squished Justice and Defence together, Stanton may have gotten a role.

*shrug*

I actually don't give a crap tbh, unless the social welfare is cut way down there's little else the government will do to help or hinder this county. :pac:

amacachi

randylonghorn wrote: »

I agree.

But on the other hand, this country seriously needs to get up to speed on sustainable / renewable energy, and it's an area where there are potential jobs in the short to medium-term, so if he gets his teeth into it, he could do some good.

Unfortunately the state jobs at least in that sector seem to generally be going to civil servants rather than engineers. Looking at a mate's class who finished a couple of years ago (electronic engineering) there's not a huge amount happening or else a Masters is needed.