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C&H General Election Thread

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    #242
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    **Timbuk2** wrote: »
    Really hope Mark Dearey (Greens) gets through in Louth!

    Aye, that's the kind of TD we need, the ones who fail to get elected then get into the Seanad for a handy few quid before trying again to get into the Dail. Oh and they should also be a member of a party who played a nice part in screwing a couple of generations of Irish people.


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    #243
    Duffy the Vampire Slayer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    amacachi wrote: »
    She won't, double-barrelled surname lad will.

    Im guessing you're not a Boyd-Barrett fan?


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    #244
    flyswatter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,625 ✭✭✭flyswatter


    amacachi wrote: »
    I think FF are going to get a seat. :( Fitz ain't gonna make the quota so once one of the FFers is eliminated the other will likely get most of his transfers.

    Wouldn't write Fitzpatrick off yet. When Dearey and Moran are eliminated their transfers could favour Fitzpatrick.

    Funnily enough, RTE are saying many of Adam's surplus are not transferring to other candidates.


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    #245
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »
    Im guessing you're not a Boyd-Barrett fan?

    I'm not, though the double-barrelled thing wasn't meant to be disparaging, just couldn't think of his name.


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    #246
    **Timbuk2**
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 7,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭**Timbuk2**


    amacachi wrote: »
    Aye, that's the kind of TD we need, the ones who fail to get elected then get into the Seanad for a handy few quid before trying again to get into the Dail. Oh and they should also be a member of a party who played a nice part in screwing a couple of generations of Irish people.

    Greens mightn't be perfect, but they're the only ones that seemed to have any sort of policy on the education fees - something that will directly affect me in the very near future.

    Plus, my best friend was going to Thailand last summer to teach English and wrote to a few people looking for money to help out, and Dearey was the only one that came through, apart from a few local businesses.

    Having looked at the results since my above post, it doesn't look likely. Here's to hoping Peter Fitzpatrick then :)

    (Not that there's a huge difference between most of them anyway)


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    #247
    Duffy the Vampire Slayer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    amacachi wrote: »
    I'm not, though the double-barrelled thing wasn't meant to be disparaging, just couldn't think of his name.

    Nah I didn't think that, I was just going by the things you've said about Labour I wouldn't think you're an SWP man :P


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    #248
    Slow Show
    Registered Users Posts: 4,248 ✭✭✭Slow Show


    Thomas Pringle is making my mouth water...


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    #249
    Pygmalion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,082 ✭✭✭Pygmalion


    amacachi wrote: »
    Ah like how the unions wanted to get savings with "efficiencies" that didn't involve any job losses or paycuts? :pac: I just don't believe that Labour would cut anywhere near as much as could be done.
    The trade unions are not a political party.
    Their entire purpose is to represent workers in their area of influence, they're obviously going to be opposed to cuts like this, but it's stupid to bring them into this.
    Labour have never said they didn't intend to cut jobs and pay.
    I also don't believe there's anywhere near a short-staffing problem as is sometimes claimed, there are far more employed in areas now than 10 years ago yet the services received have diminished. The unions and/or pisstaking bosses also seem to enjoy having a laugh now and then. About 40% of the times I had to sign on they would have someone new on the desk, someone who typed with one finger and went through the cards one-by-one. Huge overhauls are needed and I don't believe Labour will go for it.
    As I also said, their maths seems off in general saying they'll cut less than FG yet also saying they'll raise less tax than FG. *shrug*

    Again, the Unions are not a political party.

    As you've said you haven't read their policy documents, so perhaps it's best to do that before talking about what they do and don't intend to do.
    They have put forward pretty clear plans about reform, particularly in getting rid of duplicated work, cutting down the number of management layers, and merging groups with similar function.
    These do involve cutting jobs (particularly at management level, but also down the chain where duplicated work is being done) and they do involve cutting funding, claiming that anything else is planned is at best a blatant misunderstanding, and at worse a fairly obvious strawman.

    As for cutting less and raising taxes less, they've been quite clear about raising taxes, they've never said they wouldn't, but they've been saying that they don't want to raise it for those on low-middle income levels, which is most of the country.
    I still think it's a question of money though. It's nothing short of ridiculous that so much funding goes to religious organisations in this country for "education" but the amount it will take to buy school premises etc. isn't going to be available for a while.

    I think we're talking about different circumstances tbh.
    I've been to 2 primary schools and 1 secondary school.
    None of these are owned or run by religious organisations.
    All 3 have had the local priest making important decisions and regular religious (read: Catholic) events.
    We were called out of class by the local priest once to give confession in the second primary school I was in.

    There is no money needed to change any of this, these are all state-owned and supposedly secular, but the church has a disgraceful amount of say in their running, and nothing is done about it.


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    #250
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    **Timbuk2** wrote: »
    Greens mightn't be perfect, but they're the only ones that seemed to have any sort of policy on the education fees - something that will directly affect me in the very near future.

    Just checked the site, not seeing anything about fees, just a loan for living expenses.
    Plus, my best friend was going to Thailand last summer to teach English and wrote to a few people looking for money to help out, and Dearey was the only one that came through, apart from a few local businesses.
    Was it his seanad salary or private earnings? Or on his council expenses? :pac:


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    #251
    flyswatter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,625 ✭✭✭flyswatter


    **Timbuk2** wrote: »
    Really hope Mark Dearey (Greens) gets through in Louth!

    Not looking likely I'm afraid.


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    #252
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »
    Nah I didn't think that, I was just going by the things you've said about Labour I wouldn't think you're an SWP man :P
    I'm even less of a PBP person. :pac:
    Pygmalion wrote: »
    The trade unions are not a political party.
    Their entire purpose is to represent workers in their area of influence, they're obviously going to be opposed to cuts like this, but it's stupid to bring them into this.
    Labour have never said they didn't intend to cut jobs and pay.
    Last year they said they were opposed to cuts in pay or numbers, they've revised that since.
    As you've said you haven't read their policy documents, so perhaps it's best to do that before talking about what they do and don't intend to do.
    They have put forward pretty clear plans about reform, particularly in getting rid of duplicated work, cutting down the number of management layers, and merging groups with similar function.
    Again though, I don't believe they'd cut as heavily as could be done with little decrease in services. Their union-coddling since 2007 has only now gone away in public, I strongly doubt that they've privately lost their sympathies.
    These do involve cutting jobs (particularly at management level, but also down the chain where duplicated work is being done) and they do involve cutting funding, claiming that anything else is planned is at best a blatant misunderstanding, and at worse a fairly obvious strawman.
    The unions (and Labour a while back) categorically said they could save some billion without cutting pay or numbers and purely through "efficiencies".
    As for cutting less and raising taxes less, they've been quite clear about raising taxes, they've never said they wouldn't, but they've been saying that they don't want to raise it for those on low-middle income levels, which is most of the country.
    Just remembered who it was last week, Ivana Bacik on the radio. She said they were going to raise less tax than FG and make less cuts yet still close the deficit by the same amount. Think it was on RTE.
    I think we're talking about different circumstances tbh.
    I've been to 2 primary schools and 1 secondary school.
    None of these are owned or run by religious organisations.
    All 3 have had the local priest making important decisions and regular religious (read: Catholic) events.
    We were called out of class by the local priest once to give confession in the second primary school I was in.

    There is no money needed to change any of this, these are all state-owned and supposedly secular, but the church has a disgraceful amount of say in their running, and nothing is done about it.

    Fair enough, both my primary and secondary schools are owned by religious orders. Of course the staff were paid by the state. Somehow I doubt if the state says "we want to have more control and stop your indoctrinating children" that the churches will say "yeah sound, just tidy the place up at the end of the day." Buying the premises etc. would most certainly cost a lot.


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    #253
    **Timbuk2**
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 7,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭**Timbuk2**


    amacachi wrote: »
    Just checked the site, not seeing anything about fees, just a loan for living expenses.


    Was it his seanad salary or private earnings? Or on his council expenses? :pac:

    I noticed it wasn't on the site a while ago when looking up who to vote for, but he has mentioned it in interviews, on the radio etc. The Greens were the ones that tried to stomp down on the student fees increasing there in the last budget.

    Haven't a clue where the money came from, it was just good of him to come forward and offer when most others ignored the requests!


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    #254
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    **Timbuk2** wrote: »
    I noticed it wasn't on the site a while ago when looking up who to vote for, but he has mentioned it in interviews, on the radio etc. The Greens were the ones that tried to stomp down on the student fees increasing there in the last budget.
    Only so someone else will get the blame. Something's gotta give.
    Haven't a clue where the money came from, it was just good of him to come forward and offer when most others ignored the requests!
    Expensive way to secure a half dozen votes. :pac:


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    #255
    Pygmalion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,082 ✭✭✭Pygmalion


    amacachi wrote: »
    Last year they said they were opposed to cuts in pay or numbers, they've revised that since.

    Ah, in the past they said something, must mean it's still their policy.

    Again though, I don't believe they'd cut as heavily as could be done with little decrease in services. Their union-coddling since 2007 has only now gone away in public, I strongly doubt that they've privately lost their sympathies.

    They could cut more if they cut services slightly, yes, that is correct, but they would prefer to avoid cutting services.

    As for "union-coddling", that doesn't mean they agree with everything the unions say by any stretch of the imagination.
    It says quite a bit that you seem to be giving more attention to the unions that the actual policies of the party you're supposedly disagreeing with.

    The unions (and Labour a while back) categorically said they could save some billion without cutting pay or numbers and purely through "efficiencies".

    "a while back", meaning Labour have updated their policy as more research into the situation was done.

    As for the unions still saying it, I'll just repeat that I didn't vote for the trade unions, if I haven't made that 100% clear yet.
    Just remembered who it was last week, Ivana Bacik on the radio. She said they were going to raise less tax than FG and make less cuts yet still close the deficit by the same amount. Think it was on RTE.

    As long as it was just Bacik misrepresenting them, and not someone whose opinion I actually listen to.
    Could do with getting a lot less attention though tbf, both from the party and from the media, it'd do a lot of good.
    Fair enough, both my primary and secondary schools are owned by religious orders. Of course the staff were paid by the state.
    Somehow I doubt if the state says "we want to have more control and stop your indoctrinating children" that the churches will say "yeah sound, just tidy the place up at the end of the day." Buying the premises etc. would most certainly cost a lot.

    Yes, but as I said, buying the premises is not necessary in a lot of cases, there can be a lot done by the Dáil to stop their influence with respect to schools that are already state-owned but for some reason are heavily influenced by the church.


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    #256
    Duffy the Vampire Slayer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    amacachi wrote: »
    I'm even less of a PBP person. :pac:

    But they're a completely different organisation ;)


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    #257
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Pygmalion wrote: »
    Ah, in the past they said something, must mean it's still their policy.
    Simply pointing out that they seemed to think it was possible and not a pipe-dream, I wonder what changed.
    They could cut more if they cut services slightly, yes, that is correct, but they would prefer to avoid cutting services.
    There has to be some cut in service if there's any cut in numbers. The proportion of loss of quality to numbers cut is what needs to be minimised as much as possibly while still trying to get the necessary cuts.
    As for "union-coddling", that doesn't mean they agree with everything the unions say by any stretch of the imagination.
    Agreeing with a union and going along with them are two different things.
    It says quite a bit that you seem to be giving more attention to the unions that the actual policies of the party you're supposedly disagreeing with.
    Maybe it says that the unions need to be taken on and I don't believe Labour will do it.
    "a while back", meaning Labour have updated their policy as more research into the situation was done.
    You said it was disingenuous to suggest that "efficiencies" didn't mean job/losses or wage cuts yet it seems that Labour did believe that.
    As for the unions still saying it, I'll just repeat that I didn't vote for the trade unions, if I haven't made that 100% clear yet.
    Think you're directing that at someone else, I don't remember saying you did.
    As long as it was just Bacik misrepresenting them, and not someone whose opinion I actually listen to.
    Could do with getting a lot less attention though tbf, both from the party and from the media, it'd do a lot of good.
    She did something right, lost in her first election attempt, into the Seanad and then got to run with the party leader. She's got some kind of pull in the party.
    Yes, but as I said, buying the premises is not necessary in a lot of cases, there can be a lot done by the Dáil to stop their influence with respect to schools that are already state-owned but for some reason are heavily influenced by the church.
    Unfortunately it will be necessary in plenty as well.


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    #258
    EverybodyLies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 493 ✭✭EverybodyLies


    Feckin Gerry Adams. Was realllly hoping he wouldn't get it. :mad::mad:


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    #259
    Pygmalion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,082 ✭✭✭Pygmalion


    amacachi wrote: »
    Simply pointing out that they seemed to think it was possible and not a pipe-dream, I wonder what changed.

    They looked further into it?

    There has to be some cut in service if there's any cut in numbers. The proportion of loss of quality to numbers cut is what needs to be minimised as much as possibly while still trying to get the necessary cuts.

    There's enough inefficient bull**** that a lot of it can reasonably be cut without any serious cuts in services, and I wouldn't be surprised if in some areas services could be improved.

    Agreeing with a union and going along with them are two different things.

    I was just saying it's not black and white, you can support someone without agreeing with everything they say and do, and there are plenty of areas in which they differ, I've pointed out a couple (but not nearly all).
    Maybe it says that the unions need to be taken on and I don't believe Labour will do it.
    Valid complaint I suppose, they probably could do more than they're going to, but you seemed to not be making any distinction between what the Unions want and what Labour want.

    You said it was disingenuous to suggest that "efficiencies" didn't mean job/losses or wage cuts yet it seems that Labour did believe that.

    In the past, then they looked at the situation and realised that it wasn't feasible.

    Some would call it flip-flopping, but I like that at least one of our parties is willing to change their minds when presented with new evidence, rather than blindly following their original instinct.

    Think you're directing that at someone else, I don't remember saying you did.
    No, but as I said you didn't seem to distinguish between the Unions and Labour in terms of what they wanted.
    I might as well just take some quotes from some builders and attribute them to Fianna Fáil.
    She did something right, lost in her first election attempt, into the Seanad and then got to run with the party leader. She's got some kind of pull in the party.

    Yeah, and it's a bit ****.
    One of the reasons I made it clear that I don't "support" Labour as much as I believe them to be the best of a bad bunch tbh.

    Unfortunately it will be necessary in plenty as well.

    Yes, but in the meantime no point ignoring what CAN be fixed because there's a lot that can't.


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    #260
    KnifeWRENCH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,148 ✭✭✭✭KnifeWRENCH


    I was tempted to put this in the YAAAAH thread, but I'll settle for throwing it up here.

    MARY COUGHLAN GONE. FÚCK YEAH!!! :D

    So long and good riddance to that incompetent, homophobic, arrogant, useless, fúcking pathetic excuse for a politician.


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    #261
    Namlub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,298 ✭✭✭Namlub


    Booyah!


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    #262
    Screaminmidget
    Registered Users Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭Screaminmidget


    Still have no-one voted in. :(


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    #263
    suitcasepink
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 7,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭suitcasepink


    Noel2k9 wrote: »
    So, apparently the people counting them in Waterford lost 2000 votes.. LOST. THEM.
    Noooo the Talley men did, they missed 2000 votes being counted somehow

    But the actually opening up the boxes and removing spoiled votes people had them!
    Only one person actually elected here I think, Deasy from Fine Gael but its starting to look obvious whos getting through


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    #264
    Screaminmidget
    Registered Users Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭Screaminmidget


    Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »
    Delighted. Is there any chance of John O'Donoghue losing out?
    Hes out :D

    3rd count, nobody passed the quota.


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    #265
    KnifeWRENCH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,148 ✭✭✭✭KnifeWRENCH


    Very tight race between Tom Barry (FG), Sandra McLellan (SF) and Kevin O'Keeffe (FF) for the final two seats in Cork East.

    As much as I disagree with SF for their economic policies and utterly DESPISE FG for their social policies, I hope McLellan and Barry prevail.

    Kevin O'Keeffe is the son of Ned "The Chinese are coming!" O'Keeffe and the only reason he's on the FF ticket is because of Daddy's influence. :rolleyes:

    The strange thing is that Cork East actually had a decent FF TD in Michael Ahern (who was eliminated earlier) I don't know why the FF voters were dumb enough to snub him in favour of Ned Jnr. :mad:


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    #266
    KnifeWRENCH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,148 ✭✭✭✭KnifeWRENCH


    ....ah well. McLellan and Barry got in. w00t! :D

    Cork East: 2 FG, 1 LAB, 1 SF. That's 0 FF. Seems to strange saying that...


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    #267
    A Neurotic
    Registered Users Posts: 3,779 ✭✭✭A Neurotic


    North Tipperary retains its pet Independent Michael Lowry and FG's Noel Coonan, and elects former MEP and smugface* Labour man Alan Kelly. Happy with that, the first two were shoe-ins and it was going to be either Kelly or FF's Hoctor for the third seat.

    Smuggest of faces:

    alankellylab-197x197.jpg


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    #268
    randylonghorn
    Registered Users Posts: 29,509 ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    Noel2k9 wrote: »
    So, apparently the people counting them in Waterford lost 2000 votes.. LOST. THEM.
    deise_girl wrote: »
    Noooo the Talley men did, they missed 2000 votes being counted somehow
    Jaysus, it must be a Waterford thing not to have a clue about the system ... :p


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    #269
    KnifeWRENCH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,148 ✭✭✭✭KnifeWRENCH


    A Neurotic wrote: »
    North Tipperary retains its pet Independent Michael Lowry and FG's Noel Coonan, and elects former MEP and smugface* Labour man Alan Kelly. Happy with that, the first two were shoe-ins and it was going to be either Kelly or FF's Hoctor for the third seat.

    Smuggest of faces:

    alankellylab-197x197.jpg

    Oh I remember him from the European elections. He was smug. Quite smug indeed.

    Wait, do we get a new Europey-type person now? Will Labour just appoint a new MEP or will there need to be an election?

    /shudders at thought of Kathy Sinnott re-emerging from whatever hole she's been in for the past year.


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    #270
    suitcasepink
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 7,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭suitcasepink


    randylonghorn wrote: »
    Jaysus, it must be a Waterford thing not to have a clue about the system ... :p

    I like to believe I know what Im saying :(


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    #271
    Namlub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,298 ✭✭✭Namlub


    A Neurotic wrote: »
    North Tipperary retains its pet Independent Michael Lowry and FG's Noel Coonan, and elects former MEP and smugface* Labour man Alan Kelly. Happy with that, the first two were shoe-ins and it was going to be either Kelly or FF's Hoctor for the third seat.

    Smuggest of faces:

    alankellylab-197x197.jpg
    Is he the one that brought out a rap when he was trying to get elected as an MEP? I remember something about Fianna Fáil without the fada spelling Fianna Fail. Because no-one noticed that ever before...


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