Israeli military cleared over flotilla raid

Manic Moran

wes wrote: »

Well, thats great, but personally I wouldn't bother, as there report would be just as tainted as any Israeli one.

There is still much to learn from reading such a thing. Just because it's going to be biased does not mean that it is going to be useless. I'd be fascinated to just read about the internal chains of command structure and mechanisms, for example.

NTM

wes

Manic Moran wrote: »

There is still much to learn from reading such a thing. Just because it's going to be biased does not mean that it is going to be useless. I'd be fascinated to just read about the internal chains of command structure and mechanisms, for example.

NTM

Alright, to be fair, it isn't completely useless. Hyperbole my part.

However, from my POV it doesn't interest me, and for an account of what happened, I see no value in it.

Badgermonkey

wes wrote: »

Alright, to be fair, it isn't completely useless. Hyperbole my part.

However, from my POV it doesn't interest me

Priceless.

I believe Flotilla 2 are seeking participants, 'talk is cheap as they say':D

http://savegaza.eu/eng/index.php?id=512

Badgermonkey

wes wrote: »

You are basically proving my point via the hypocrisy of the EU here, and the EU has sanctions against some of the countries you mention, so basically you entire real politik arguement goes out the Window, as the EU are happy to sanction people as it is, so why not Israel as well? Surely, the EU which claims to be all about Human Rights will sanctions Israel, just like they will Iran.

Realpolitik refers to politics or diplomacy based primarily on power and on practical and material factors and considerations, rather than ideological notions or moralistic or ethical premises.

(Read again and again 'til comprehended)


1. Foreign policy has and always will be fundamentally informed by an economic imperative.

(human rights are a factor of course but trade with Saudi and China should give you an idea as to the weight of importance placed on HR vs Trade)

2. To employ trade as a tool in the armoury against Israel would serve only to deprive European business of opportunity and would ultimately harm the interests of ordinary citizens of the EU.

(note also I said above 'token' trade barriers, as the EU would have difficulty justifying the imposition of sanctions comparable to those placed upon Iran or Myanmar)

3. You can argue the rights and wrongs of that all you want, the realpolitik ensures the EU will correctly continue to build ties with Israel for their mutual economic benefit.

The practise of foreign policy does not adhere to some formulaic template.

To say 'well you have sanctioned A, B and C, why not D?' ignores the nuance of the differing strategic importance countries place upon one another - Why does the US assist in keeping a failed state like Pakistan afloat?

It would be wonderful if a benign utopian approach informed government globally.

Never has, never will, so let's deal with the realpolitik and not be naive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism_in_international_relations

Nodin

Badgermonkey wrote: »

Realpolitik refers to politics or diplomacy based primarily on power and on practical and material factors and considerations, rather than ideological (........)_relations

No, let's pound away until they change.

Dudess

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Absolutely no surprise, total media spin on the whole issue, vested interests and left wingers tried to muddy the waters but as always the truth will emerge from the propaganda.

these people might think again before pulling a stunt like that in that area.

You just come across as someone who'd defend/find justification for a massacre of Palestinian civilians by the Israeli military, even though you know it's terribly wrong, in order to ensure you don't share a view with - oh noez! :eek: - left-wingers! How pitiful...
I've actually shared a view now and again with people who are generally far more to the right in their views than I am - and guess what? Everything was ok! :eek:

aligator_am

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

No surprises there, I think it is a disgrace and while I certainly don't support Hamas laws and practices, there is clearly something very wrong about this.

I said it before and will say it again now, if anyone criticises Israel then they are immediately considered an anti Semite in the eyes of certain folk, and want to kill all Jews, this is NOT the case, there's nothing wrong with criticising the immoral actions of a government and its military, irrelevant of where they're from.

So long as this attitude holds firm then the Israelis will keep doing whatever the hell they like, knowing full well that the majority of countries won't publicly criticise them for fear of being branded an anti Semite state, this just seems wrong to me

wes

Badgermonkey wrote: »

Priceless.

I believe Flotilla 2 are seeking participants, 'talk is cheap as they say':D

I already gave money btw. Still, par for course with your comments. Ignore what is being said, and make it about the other poster.

Badgermonkey

wes wrote: »

I already gave money btw. Still, par for course with your comments. Ignore what is being said, and make it about the other poster.

Bored now Wes, all the best.

wes

Badgermonkey wrote: »

Realpolitik refers to politics or diplomacy based primarily on power and on practical and material factors and considerations, rather than ideological notions or moralistic or ethical premises.

(Read again and again 'til comprehended)

I suggest you have a read. Your the one who doesn't get it.

Badgermonkey wrote: »

1. Foreign policy has and always will be fundamentally informed by an economic imperative.

(human rights are a factor of course but trade with Saudi and China should give you an idea as to the weight of importance placed on HR vs Trade)

Human Rights don't factor at all, with the exception of empty rhetoric. Its irrelevant actually. The West will support anyone who does what there told.

Badgermonkey wrote: »

2. To employ trade as a tool in the armoury against Israel would serve only to deprive European business of opportunity and would ultimately harm the interests of ordinary citizens of the EU.

(note also I said above 'token' trade barriers, as the EU would have difficulty justifying the imposition of sanctions comparable to those placed upon Iran or Myanmar)

More oil being available would be nice for those of us in Europe actually. You see we are rather dependent on it. Sanctions against Iran, make very little sense in real politik terms. We need oil, and more oil on the market will reduce the prices, and let us play Iran against Saudi Arabia in terms of oil prices. Now, if we are to take your view of real politik then sanctions on Iran make very little sense, as China and India are happy to get Iran's oil, and we shooting ourselves in the foot. Your version of real politik makes no sense, and is incredibly inconsistent.

Your view of real politik is very simplistic at best.

Badgermonkey wrote: »

3. You can argue the rights and wrongs of that all you want, the realpolitik ensures the EU will correctly continue to build ties with Israel for their mutual economic benefit.

The practise of foreign policy does not adhere to some formulaic template.

To say 'well you have sanctioned A, B and C, why not D?' ignores the nuance of the differing strategic importance countries place upon one another - Why does the US assist in keeping a failed state like Pakistan afloat?

It would be wonderful if a benign utopian approach informed government globally.

Never has, never will, so let's deal with the realpolitik and not be naive.

That is certainly one way to look at real politik, and one that has been shown to be a complete and utter failure. Our policies of supporting regimes like Israel, and Saudi Arabia are not in our best interests. Our support is a casus belli for extremists the world over, and goes against our so called values (I would say that we in reality have no such values, as we aren't bothered with adhering to them).

It is incredibly simplistic to think that supporting despots the world over, is in our best interests, they will fall and the people will be pissed at us for helping screw them over.

Real politik is just an excuse for people who want to support despots. They claim its in our best interests.

For example, before Pakistan was supported by the US, the country had no suicide bombings, and with US support it now has them on a regular basis, and US support of Musharaf was a major recruiter against the US, and US involvement in Pakistan, has seen the country, unable to right itself, even with a democratic government. In fact the US entire real politik policy has failed utterly, look at the huge mess that Iraq still is, with a government friendly with Iran, and in Afghanistan, the Taliban and other militants are still going strong, and those same groups are engaged in regular attacks in Pakistan as well, either by themselves, or by local sympathizers. Real politik the way you see it is a massive failure, and that being kind.

wes

Badgermonkey wrote: »

Bored now Wes, all the best.

All, I did was point out that you like to make discussions about other posters. If that bores, you really ought to stop.