What do you think is the reason for our high rate of obesity?

slum dog

Poor diet is the number one cause of obesity imo.

animal products are the most overlooked cause:

cows milk-alot of processed food you buy will have this ingredient in it.
to suggest that humans need cows milk to get calcium is ludicrous. long term consumption of cows milk has been linked to cancer and numerous brain diseases and yet its still promoted as a 'healthfood'.
meat- meat was once a luxury but now is consumed on a daily basis not to mention used in processed foods. the higher the rate of meat consumption in a country goes up so do the levels of cancer. FACT
oils-low fat diets are good for your body. oils are detrimental and are completely foreign to the body. natural fat should be obtained from raw foods.
sugar-your body craves natural sugars such as fruit but humans nowadays reach for biscuits and chocolate bars instead. all rubbish and bad for you in the long run. (diabetes)

that would be the four to completely avoid. milk is by far the worst and the reason people find it so hard to loose weight is because of it.

lack of excercise is another reason. excercise is not taken serious in ireland. punishment in school is usually not been allowed to do PE. should i say more? people should get at least 45 minutes of excercise a day.

**Portia**

It saddens me and depresses me how Conventional Wisdom has brainwashed people into believing whatever a doctor tells them. My family's health has suffered so much through believing all of the BS, they suffer from heart disease, diabetes, obesity (2 of my aunts have had gastric bands fitted).

It annoys me how quick people are to spout out the self hatred mantra, 'fat people are lazy', 'fat people are just slobs who need exercise', 'fat people eat McDonalds all day'. In most cases this is simply not true. I know in my family obesity can be attributed in the most part to carb addiction, and the science is there to back up this theory.

Science does not yet have all the answers - no one is saying that. But it is very immature to aggressively deny others' opinions, which are based on research, and comes from a place of fear and not wanting to lose control.

What if..... shock horror.....doctors don't know it all??? What if...shock horror....nutritional research on which modern day guidelines were based is in fact flawed? What if it is possible that there is a correlation between increased levels of obesity and misinformation. What if we afforded obese people a bit of dignity and when considering their problem we thought outside the box for once?!

Corruption, misinformation and flawed Scientific 'evidence' is rife in the world of nutrition and medicine. I wouldn't have believed it had I not decided to educate myself.

Remember it was once a worldwide belief that the world was flat!

**Portia**

slum dog wrote: »

Poor diet is the number one cause of obesity imo.

animal products are the most overlooked cause:

cows milk-alot of processed food you buy will have this ingredient in it.
to suggest that humans need cows milk to get calcium is ludicrous. long term consumption of cows milk has been linked to cancer and numerous brain diseases and yet its still promoted as a 'healthfood'.
meat- meat was once a luxury but now is consumed on a daily basis not to mention used in processed foods. the higher the rate of meat consumption in a country goes up so do the levels of cancer. FACT
oils-low fat diets are good for your body. oils are detrimental and are completely foreign to the body. natural fat should be obtained from raw foods.
sugar-your body craves natural sugars such as fruit but humans nowadays reach for biscuits and chocolate bars instead. all rubbish and bad for you in the long run. (diabetes)

that would be the four to completely avoid. milk is by far the worst and the reason people find it so hard to loose weight is because of it.

lack of excercise is another reason. excercise is not taken serious in ireland. punishment in school is usually not been allowed to do PE. should i say more? people should get at least 45 minutes of excercise a day.

What you seem to be advocating is a low-carb, low-fat diet - this would be unsustainable diet for most, and I'd go so far as to say that aiming for such would be a large reason why so many dieters fail

Sapsorrow

slum dog wrote: »

Poor diet is the number one cause of obesity imo.

animal products are the most overlooked cause:

cows milk-alot of processed food you buy will have this ingredient in it.
to suggest that humans need cows milk to get calcium is ludicrous. long term consumption of cows milk has been linked to cancer and numerous brain diseases and yet its still promoted as a 'healthfood'.
meat- meat was once a luxury but now is consumed on a daily basis not to mention used in processed foods. the higher the rate of meat consumption in a country goes up so do the levels of cancer. FACT
oils-low fat diets are good for your body. oils are detrimental and are completely foreign to the body. natural fat should be obtained from raw foods.
sugar-your body craves natural sugars such as fruit but humans nowadays reach for biscuits and chocolate bars instead. all rubbish and bad for you in the long run. (diabetes)

that would be the four to completely avoid. milk is by far the worst and the reason people find it so hard to loose weight is because of it.

F*ck me, just when you thought it couldn't get any more ridiculous :eek:

pecker1992

Sapsorrow wrote: »

I am qualified and I regularly take advice from El D I don't presume to know it all though just because I have the papers, and would consider El D one of the most knowledgeable people (in terms of nutritional science anyway ) I've ever come across. She's just as knowledgeable (and probably considerably more so in some cases) as many of the prof's and practitioners I was taught by in college. It's actually a bit freaky :pac: At the end of the day, enthusiasm, personal experience and hours of self education can amount to a hell of a lot of expertise. Your blind trust in people who have authority in public health nutrition really is absurdly naive.

thats quite alright if you wanna take advice from someone else...im not gonna take advice from anyone that cant even answer a few simple questions..
but ill say this..

from when i got my diet in order and started eating right..i ended up looking & feeling better than i ever did...ive a body i never thought possible for someone that looked like i did as a youth....and ive confidence in myself...i didnt have to cut carbs to do this oh no.....it was an overhaul of diet in general... no crap food period

the things that cause obesity are always high in FAT & CARBS...im not denying that...but when one isnt present & the other is i ive noticed these foods in general dont affect weight as drastically..so somebody saying to me that carbs are the cause of obesity is ridiculous becuase its an 2 sided coin.....if you eat a pizza thats filled with carbs & fat then thats what will get you because your body cant burn the fat & carbs off....one will be stored if not both depending on activity levels

Sapsorrow wrote: »

F*ck me, just when you thought it couldn't get any more ridiculous :eek:

i wouldnt be so quick to condem this guy..milk can be a factor....


ive failed to mention that im half lebanese...and where my family originates from is Mediterranean style diet...very similar to what alot of low carbers eat ( not always) but its not carb based....theres just as man fat people in these countries and id knoe..so whats there cause then eh??? carbs???..i dont think so...i believe high fat is the culprit for the cause of mediterrainian obesity and i believe it because ive seen it......carbs arent evil....and not the cause of obesity the cause is a mixture of carbs overload fat overload & a lazy society who thrive on processed foods, fast foods and takewaways and binge drink like theres no tomorrow..im not saying carbs have nothing to do with it..but one can live very healthily on teh recommended 300g per day if they are active.........

Sapsorrow

I'll give you a month on this forum before you finally see things from our point of view :pac: It happens every time one of these debates comes up here .. you can only reason with logic, reason and well-conducted research to a point and the people round here are tireless in a debate

pecker1992

give me 10 years if you like...im not ever going to agreee with low carb diets...when i can live healthily on a broad balanced diet which includes all groups im not gonna drop a food group because a few people on an internet forum think its the best approach..ive noticed this forum is severely Atkins based..i just didnt think it was this bad

Sapsorrow

Ehm who exactly here follows Atkins? Seriously I think you have completely misunderstood us, when we talk about low carb we don't necessarily mean super low like 10-20g a day (like in Atkins induction), we may mean 100 to 150g which is actually very adequate (and really should be called moderate-carb rather than low-carb), but in the context of the average Irish diet would be a lot lower carb than what most folks eat. Personally I consider 100-150g of carbs a day to be low-carb but that's miles more than you'd eat in early phases of Atkins. El D often mentions she eats starchy root veg as well as spuds 3 or so times a week. A lot of us here are paleo or primal here and so avoid cereals and refined sugars, making the diet relatively low carb but those diets don't advocate avoidance of starchy/sugary fruits or veg particularly unless weight management is an issue. Also low-carb in no way means no carb, don't think many posters have passed through here trying to do that except moonage

dr.bollocko

pecker1992 wrote: »

give me 10 years if you like...im not ever going to agreee with low carb diets...when i can live healthily on a broad balanced diet which includes all groups im not gonna drop a food group because a few people on an internet forum think its the best approach..ive noticed this forum is severely Atkins based..i just didnt think it was this bad

Yeah but you have no idea what you're talking about or what a balanced diet is. So, with respect, sit back, chill out, and read some of the links. Your argument has been comprehensively and totally destroyed. I'm finding it difficult to understand how you haven't noticed this fact. I hope anyone reading the thread feels the same. And your attempts at digs since said conclusive pwnage has happened have been fairly pathetic.
"I'm wrong ergo this whole forum is wrong."
No.
Actually mate you're wrong.
It happens the best of us. Deal with it.

Frogdog

slum dog wrote: »

Poor diet is the number one cause of obesity imo.

animal products are the most overlooked cause:

cows milk-alot of processed food you buy will have this ingredient in it.
to suggest that humans need cows milk to get calcium is ludicrous. long term consumption of cows milk has been linked to cancer and numerous brain diseases and yet its still promoted as a 'healthfood'.
meat- meat was once a luxury but now is consumed on a daily basis not to mention used in processed foods. the higher the rate of meat consumption in a country goes up so do the levels of cancer. FACT
oils-low fat diets are good for your body. oils are detrimental and are completely foreign to the body. natural fat should be obtained from raw foods.
sugar-your body craves natural sugars such as fruit but humans nowadays reach for biscuits and chocolate bars instead. all rubbish and bad for you in the long run. (diabetes)

that would be the four to completely avoid. milk is by far the worst and the reason people find it so hard to loose weight is because of it.

lack of excercise is another reason. excercise is not taken serious in ireland. punishment in school is usually not been allowed to do PE. should i say more? people should get at least 45 minutes of excercise a day.

What a fool of a post. Seriously.

Animal products? You mean the same animal products we've been eating since evolution?! :rolleyes:

Cow's milk - who said anything about calcium? Sure, there are other sources, but a diet high in calcium doesn't automatically mean you won't be obese.

Meat - once again, we've been eating meat for tens of thousands of years. And it was never a luxury. It has always been a staple in one's diet. Did cavemen consider it a luxury? No, they just considered it plain ol' food! And obesity is a recent thing, as is cancer. Meat isn't. So maybe you should think again.

Oils - low fat diets are good for your body are they?! :rolleyes: Since when? And can you back that up with properly researched papers/studies?

Sugar - finally, some common ground! :pac:

But the reason people find it hard to lose weight is not milk. Not unless they were used to drinking hundreds and thousands of calories of it daily.

And I'll agree with the lack of exercise bit, we do need to move more. But punishment in school is usually not being not allowed to take part in PE, that's a lie. Punishment in school is usually detention, extra homework, informing parents etc.

And who says people should get at least 45 minutes of exercise a day? Again - studies/researched papers please. You could do 30 minutes 3 times a week and still be healthy. Hell not even any exercise at all if you want - you can lose excess bodyfat through changes to your diet alone.

pecker1992

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Yeah but you have no idea what you're talking about or what a balanced diet is. So, with respect, sit back, chill out, and read some of the links. Your argument has been comprehensively and totally destroyed. I'm finding it difficult to understand how you haven't noticed this fact. I hope anyone reading the thread feels the same. And your attempts at digs since said conclusive pwnage has happened have been fairly pathetic.
"I'm wrong ergo this whole forum is wrong."
No.
Actually mate you're wrong.
It happens the best of us. Deal with it.

hahaha my argument destroyed???? tell me how please..listen ive no problem posting pics of myself to further prove the fact that you can have plenty of carbs in your diet & be healthy ..some people here cant even post there diet probably because it either 1. dictates what there saying or 2. probably isnt anywhere near as good as it should be......seriously..look ill say it again..unless someone here can post a pic of themselves in equal or better shape than im in im not buying the the stupidity of the arguments posted here...like i said 1000 times over im in great shape...are all of you??? doubtful

jugger0

No excercise is the obvious culprit, secondary is the ****ty refined carb crap that people eat daily.

joewicklow

pecker1992 wrote: »

hahaha my argument destroyed???? tell me how please..listen ive no problem posting pics of myself to further prove the fact that you can have plenty of carbs in your diet & be healthy ..some people here cant even post there diet probably because it either 1. dictates what there saying or 2. probably isnt anywhere near as good as it should be......seriously..look ill say it again..unless someone here can post a pic of themselves in equal or better shape than im in im not buying the the stupidity of the arguments posted here...like i said 1000 times over im in great shape...are all of you??? doubtful

Pecker,

With all due respect you are still very young. Come back and read this thread when you are 39 and see if it makes a little more sense.

I reckon a lot of your weight loss is down to the calories you are burning hitting that full stop button on your keyboard. /joke.

Sapsorrow

pecker1992 wrote: »

hahaha my argument destroyed???? tell me how please..listen ive no problem posting pics of myself to further prove the fact that you can have plenty of carbs in your diet & be healthy ..some people here cant even post there diet probably because it either 1. dictates what there saying or 2. probably isnt anywhere near as good as it should be......seriously..look ill say it again..unless someone here can post a pic of themselves in equal or better shape than im in im not buying the the stupidity of the arguments posted here...like i said 1000 times over im in great shape...are all of you??? doubtful

Who here said you can't be slim and eat a high carb diet? NO ONE!! We're not saying everyone who eats high carb is gonna be fat ffs, that would be beyond stupid.

You need to make a bigger effort to read what people are actually saying here because you are arguing against points no one has even made and it's getting a bit irritating.

Also, you are very young, it's easy to look good at your age with f*ck all effort, you'll almost certainly start to struggle once you get to your late twenties early thirties like most western men do. As for me diet generally looks something like...

Breakfast: meat of some sort, cheese and veg usually fried in butter (Today it's 2 lamb chops in a creme fraiche and jalfraizie (sp) spiced sauce with 1/2 an avocado on top)

Snacks: natural yoghurt, fruit, nuts, cheese

Drinks: several coffees and cappuchinos with full fat milk and plenty of cream but no sugar, lots of herbal teas maybe a pint or two of cider or a few G&T's (sugar-free tonic) after work and on the weekends considerably more.

Lunch: more meat and veg

Dinner: You guessed it.. more meat and veg, and no all that meat I'm eating isn't making me constipated, or putrefying in my gut or giving me colon cancer, the masses of fibre and water rich veg I eat with it makes sure of that.

Every meal has generous amounts of butter, olive oil, coconut fat, cream and cheese added too.

I try and eat more beef and lamb than anything, being free-range by default when Irish and having better omega 3:6 ratios than pork etc. I always specify at the butchers that I don't want any lean cuts. Fish wise I go for mackerel and salmon, tinned tuna and chowder mixes from the fish monger.

Veg would include potatoes, sweet potato, pumpkin, swede, carrots, onions, kale, broccoli, leafy greens, lots of peppers, cauliflower, cucumber etc etc

Fruit is usually apples, avocados, berries, lemon and limes (in dressings).

I usually get a mix of pecans, brazil nuts, macadamias, pistachios, cashews and almonds from M&S to snack on.

A few days a week I have some dark or milk chocolate (or sometimes a lot) and I have a couple of bags of crisps a week if I'm being a bold.

You can decide for yourself whether I'm fit or healthy looking enough for ya, plenty of pics on my blog which is linked in my sig.

At 5ft10" I have a 26" waist, excellent blood profiles for all indices of heart disease including excellent HDL and LDL levels (and ratio), very low triglycerides, excellent fasting glucose, perfect thyroid function and blood pressure and zero deficiencies (or even borderline deficiencies) of vits and minerals, all according to the results of a blood test I did just before christmas.

My doctor was in fact very surprised that all my results were so exceptional and even enquired into my diet, I revelled in telling him of course Whether your diet is working or not doesn't just depend on how good you look in your knickers mate, there's a lot more going on behind the scenes that you clearly know f*ck all about.

coffee_cake

I know personally I need fcukloads of exercise, so I'd say that's a contributing factor.
As for pecker, I think you should listen to these people :pac:

Sapsorrow

Some links to some relevant talks in case anyone else is having a lazy saturday morning in front of the computer screen

Dr Richard Johnson author of the sugar fix talking about heart disease, obesity etc.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOJ3SiRj4AQ

Ten things you thought you knew about obesity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk4UKD00aOo

An oldie but goodie, Sugar: the bitter truth by Robert Lustig: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

Oh nearly forgot, Dr Mercola (I know, I know but I kinda like him) interviewing Dr Johnson about fructose: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjG5t4LN0jA&feature=related

slum dog

Sapsorrow wrote: »

Who here said you can't be slim and eat a high carb diet? NO ONE!! We're not saying everyone who eats high carb is gonna be fat ffs, that would be beyond stupid.

You need to make a bigger effort to read what people are actually saying here because you are arguing against points no one has even made and it's getting a bit irritating.

Also, you are very young, it's easy to look good at your age with f*ck all effort, you'll almost certainly start to struggle once you get to your late twenties early thirties like most western men do. As for me diet generally looks something like...

Breakfast: meat of some sort, cheese and veg usually fried in butter (Today it's 2 lamb chops in a creme fraiche and jalfraizie (sp) spiced sauce with 1/2 an avocado on top)

Snacks: natural yoghurt, fruit, nuts, cheese

Drinks: several coffees and cappuchinos with full fat milk and plenty of cream but no sugar, lots of herbal teas maybe a pint or two of cider or a few G&T's (sugar-free tonic) after work and on the weekends considerably more.

Lunch: more meat and veg

Dinner: You guessed it.. more meat and veg, and no all that meat I'm eating isn't making me constipated, or putrefying in my gut or giving me colon cancer, the masses of fibre and water rich veg I eat with it makes sure of that.

Every meal has generous amounts of butter, olive oil, coconut fat, cream and cheese added too.

I try and eat more beef and lamb than anything, being free-range by default when Irish and having better omega 3:6 ratios than pork etc. I always specify at the butchers that I don't want any lean cuts. Fish wise I go for mackerel and salmon, tinned tuna and chowder mixes from the fish monger.

Veg would include potatoes, sweet potato, pumpkin, swede, carrots, onions, kale, broccoli, leafy greens, lots of peppers, cauliflower, cucumber etc etc

Fruit is usually apples, avocados, berries, lemon and limes (in dressings).

I usually get a mix of pecans, brazil nuts, macadamias, pistachios, cashews and almonds from M&S to snack on.

A few days a week I have some dark or milk chocolate (or sometimes a lot) and I have a couple of bags of crisps a week if I'm being a bold.

You can decide for yourself whether I'm fit or healthy looking enough for ya, plenty of pics on my blog which is linked in my sig.

At 5ft10" I have a 26" waist, excellent blood profiles for all indices of heart disease including excellent HDL and LDL levels (and ratio), very low triglycerides, excellent fasting glucose, perfect thyroid function and blood pressure and zero deficiencies (or even borderline deficiencies) of vits and minerals, all according to the results of a blood test I did just before christmas.

My doctor was in fact very surprised that all my results were so exceptional and even enquired into my diet, I revelled in telling him of course Whether your diet is working or not doesn't just depend on how good you look in your knickers mate, there's a lot more going on behind the scenes that you clearly know f*ck all about.

continue eating that way mate and your way to certain heart disease. are you forgeting all the animal hormones your body is taking in from all that meat and dairy or do you think they're killed off from the cooking process?
your obviously poisoning yourself.
health isnt measured by the size of your waistline, bloodyhell :rolleyes:

i think its moronic that people here still think low carb atkins is healthy. yes it will make you thin but it will destroy your health in the long run!

fatmammycat

Oh, I didn't realise we had to offer our diets.

I can give you an example- yesterday.

Up 6:30, three egg omelette with diced chilli, bell peppers, splash of tabasco mushrooms and grated cheese on top- folded then to allow gooey perfection. Black coffee x2

Snack-@ 11- kiwi and a handful of brasil nuts.

Lunch- @1:30 -crab and avocado salad with courgette and chillis and lime juice.

Snack @ 4-Finger of kitkat, wedge of port salut, cup of raspberry tea.

Dinner 6:30- two wild salmon darns cubed and stirfried with asparagus, sprouts (diced, delicious this way, almost nutty in flavour) mushrooms, peppers, chilli and bean shoots, spalsh of dark soy sauce. Glass of milk with dinner.

Yogurt at around nine, in bed by 10:30.


It might not be a perfect diet, but it seems to keep me lean and energised. I'm 38, 5'10 and 145 pounds.


EDIT: Slumdog, why do you keep bringing up Atkins? I've never read his book or followed his programme. On what are you basing your theory that eating low carb will result in long term health damage? Do you think my diet looks particularly poor?

slum dog

**Portia** wrote: »

What you seem to be advocating is a low-carb, low-fat diet - this would be unsustainable diet for most, and I'd go so far as to say that aiming for such would be a large reason why so many dieters fail

i never said low carb did i? i said the foods to avoid are cows milk, meat, oils and refined sugar.
theres plenty of room in that diet for carbs. in fact i follow a high carb diet and i have no weight issues. carbs are the most important fuel for the body.

coffee_cake

slum dog wrote: »

i never said low carb did i? i said the foods to avoid are cows milk, meat, oils and refined sugar.
theres plenty of room in that diet for carbs. in fact i follow a high carb diet and i have no weight issues. carbs are the most important fuel for the body.

Meat and oils? have you lost the plot

Sapsorrow

slum dog wrote: »

i think its moronic that people here still think low carb atkins is healthy. yes it will make you thin but it will destroy your health in the long run!

I would ask you too to begin reading peoples post's thoroughly before spouting off retorts that don't make any sense. Why do you think I bothered offering so many of the results of my blood tests if I thought ones waistline measurement was a sufficient measure of health?

slum dog

Sapsorrow wrote: »

I would ask you too to begin reading peoples post's thoroughly before spouting off retorts that don't make any sense. Why do you think I bothered offering so many of the results of my blood tests if I thought ones waistline measurement was a sufficient measure of health?

ive read all the posts thank you and come to the conclusion that the majority (no surprise) are spouting off complete c.rap.

my posts have been attacked with 'have i lost the plot' and 'ridiculous' with not one person backing up their post. so i'll just take the same stance and let you know feel how frustrating it is dealing with such remarks!

Sapsorrow

Oh and for the umpteenth time, I'm not on Atkins and I'm not talking about Atkins so can we please move on from that now!

Sapsorrow

slum dog wrote: »

ive read all the posts thank you and come to the conclusion that the majority (no surprise) are spouting off complete c.rap.

my posts have been attacked with 'have i lost the plot' and 'ridiculous' with not one person backing up their post. so i'll just take the same stance and let you know feel how frustrating it is dealing with such remarks!

Ironic :pac: In fairness usually people on forums start to take the piss when a post is made of such complete nonsense that is too absurd to even bother arguing intelligently with.

slum dog

Sapsorrow wrote: »

Ironic :pac: In fairness usually people on forums start to take the piss when a post is made of such complete nonsense that is too absurd to even bother arguing intelligently with.

oh do please back that up!

Sapsorrow

slum dog wrote: »

oh do please back that up!

Ehm ok gladly..

slum dog wrote: »

continue eating that way mate and your way to certain heart disease. are you forgeting all the animal hormones your body is taking in from all that meat and dairy or do you think they're killed off from the cooking process?

and...

slum dog wrote: »

animal products are the most overlooked cause:

cows milk-alot of processed food you buy will have this ingredient in it.
to suggest that humans need cows milk to get calcium is ludicrous. long term consumption of cows milk has been linked to cancer and numerous brain diseases and yet its still promoted as a 'healthfood'.
meat- meat was once a luxury but now is consumed on a daily basis not to mention used in processed foods. the higher the rate of meat consumption in a country goes up so do the levels of cancer. FACT
oils-low fat diets are good for your body. oils are detrimental and are completely foreign to the body. natural fat should be obtained from raw foods.
sugar-your body craves natural sugars such as fruit but humans nowadays reach for biscuits and chocolate bars instead. all rubbish and bad for you in the long run. (diabetes) - this bit actually makes sense hurray!

that would be the four to completely avoid. milk is by far the worst and the reason people find it so hard to loose weight is because of it.

'Nuff said.

slum dog

Sapsorrow wrote: »

Ehm ok gladly..



and...


'Nuff said.

im still waiting for you to back it up...

El_Dangeroso

A wild vegetarian spouting nonsense appears!:pac:

What are these hormones in meat you speak of? If anything there are less hormones in meat now than there were when we primarily consumed beef from uncastrated bulls, lots n lots of testosterone in them! Also beef in the EU is banned from hormone treatment. Beef and lamb in Ireland is top-quality nutritious food.

But I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself, back up any of what you said with a scientific paper and I'll give you a virtual cookie.

Sapsorrow

slum dog wrote: »

im still waiting for you to back it up...

I thought that's what I just did, backed up my point about silly posts getting silly answers with examples of your silly non-sensical uniformed posts. El D or someone had better come back soon to bring the tone of this conversation back up to a more grown up level

rocky

Hopefully the 'meat gives you cancer' crowd have read more than 'The China Study' book which was debunked thoroughly.