Why I won't be voting Sinn Fein

Dan_Solo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

credible = agree with me

credible = opposite of incredible

Expecting a country to run as it is on a budget that requires a 20 billion overdraft facility whilst ignoring lenders requirements = incredible

Dan_Solo

LeixlipRed wrote: »

As I've said a million times, you represent the working class or you don't. If you're in power delivering cuts to those people you claim to represent then there's only one conclusion I can make and that is that SF are not representative of the working class but are using them to get into power and claim mainstream credibility.

TBH every government we've ever had in Ireland has done this, screw the poor while claiming to be their friend. Don't see why you're making out SF are special in this regard, particularly as they've never been in power so there's no evidence (yet) they'll do the same.

maccored

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Sinn Fein only policy is refuse the IMF/ECB bailout, I've yet to hear where they are going to come up with the £20bn to pay off our deficit. Magic beans maybe? Voting for SF is voting for untold misery for the whole country, and it's can't be claimed otherwise.

so let me get this straight - you think the bailout is a fantastically great idea? Not that it'll be something that may probably cripple the country over the next 20-30 years?

Bottle_of_Smoke

LeixlipRed wrote: »

As I've said a million times, you represent the working class or you don't. If you're in power delivering cuts to those people you claim to represent then there's only one conclusion I can make and that is that SF are not representative of the working class but are using them to get into power and claim mainstream credibility.

Are you living in this world where people think unlimited money is at the governments disposal?

British economy suffers, less money available for public services. Is that difficult to understand?

So really you should be looking at how they administer the neccesary cuts. If they hit the working class hard, well fair enough. But if they make the best of a bad situation your critiscism is unwarranted.

Now you've said they should pull out and demand no cuts. Well that's nonsense. The British government will just say ''fair enough, direct rule it is'' and administer the cuts whatever way they see fit.

LeixlipRed

I think our political ideologies are so far apart we're not even arguing about the same thing!

maccored

maccored wrote: »

so let me get this straight - you think the bailout is a fantastically great idea? Not that it'll be something that may probably cripple the country over the next 20-30 years?

As I see it,this dying government,weak government,gomdaw government were pushed into accepting the "bail out".
They are wholely responsible for having to keel over and accept it as it was their policies that led to the state being refused borrowings and it was their policies that led the state to living beyond it's means by 20 billion or so.

It was never going to stand in it's present form.
The next government will have a mandate to undo as much of the damage as possible but they won't be doing it the SF way ie to píss off lenders altogether,lenders that like it or lump it we need and lenders we have to humour into lowering interest rates on the money we need from them.

You could of course go down the SF route of taxing middle and higher incomes to the tune of 60% or more leading to the death of incentive and drive amongst the most driven in the economy and leading to an increase in the black economy too.
We tried that mullarkey in the 80's and we ended up being a backward broken little country.
No thanks.
Common sense and middle ground instead please.

As for the Universal charge,God,whoever thought that one up and whoever thought mortgaging the country to pay for bankers mad mistakes that had nothing to do with joe citizen is deluded.
None of the opposition parties want that to go through in its current form.
Even if it's the budget in december this year that they deal with it,they will deal with it,thats it dealt with and something different to a 30 year millstone as big as the one FF have keeled over to agree to.

Chucky the tree

maccored wrote: »

so let me get this straight - you think the bailout is a fantastically great idea? Not that it'll be something that may probably cripple the country over the next 20-30 years?

I never said it a fantastically great idea or even came close to suggesting that. I think it's the best of a set of horrible choices. We don't have to take all the money, it is there for us but I'm hopeful the next Government will do a decent job of making the required cuts that we won't need to draw down all of it and if things turn around we can renegotiate it. Sinn Fein in power will make us being crippled for 20-30 years sound like slap on the wrist. Also I don't think we'll be crippled for 20-30 years, I suppose it depends on what your definition of crippled is though.

eddison

You could of course go down the SF route of taxing middle and higher incomes to the tune of 60% or more

60%? please quote who or where you got this figure from.. misinformation is partly why this country is in the condition it is in. misinformation from RTE, FF, FG everyone is at is- don't join them just to promote the view of your sect. We have been lied to ENOUGH.
Dogherty said the top rate SF are going to tax is 48% on frontline last night.

eddison

eddison wrote: »

Dogherty said the top rate SF are going to tax is 48% on frontline last night.

yeah but Pat quickly pointed out with prsi or whatever that section of tax[it's all tax] is going to be called you will be up at 60% for every bit of overtime you do at that maginal rate.You forgot that bit also on front line did you and you accuse me of misinformation.
Bye bye incentive then.
You've got to realise,that there are an awfull lot of middle income people paying mortgages whose joint income will have them on a notional 100k+
The reality of their spending power after all fixed costs including child care are taken out is quite different.They are not rich,they are ordinary people with skills working hard and this country needs them.
When you find them not bothering anymore with the extra effort needed to get to that level of income,you'll find the exchequer trying to dip into the 80k incomes and lower as the new category of higher incomes.
It's not rocket science.
Communism has failed in every single country it's been tried in.
They all eventually got fed up with it,bar cuba and DPNK.

The Volt

I think Adams should stay in Belfast and stop inflicting the electorate with his vacuous and non sensical economic policy

LeixlipRed

Deleted User wrote: »

Communism has failed in every single country it's been tried in.
They all eventually got fed up with it,bar cuba and DPNK.

Jesus, I'm sick of reading that on these forums. Educate yourself man! The regimes in Cuba and DPNK aren't communist! Also there's a difference between Communism and communism. The former being what the Stalinist Russia called it's ideology and the second being the theoretical end result of a socialist revolution.

splitting hairs on branches of communist dictatorships doesn't wash with me,I'm afraid.
It's always required dictatorship to be enforced.
I prefer democracy.

LeixlipRed

And proper democracy is what actual socialism is built on. You haven't a clue what you're talking about but that doesn't stop you chiming in.

Really? I'm not entitled to a view? a view thats 1% maybe of my entire view and you jump on it as if it were the all ...knowing nothing about me?

No interest in that boss,I'm only here to discuss Sinn Féin given that they are putting themselves forward for election and will appear on my ballot paper.
Thats my purpose here rather than ad hominem.

LeixlipRed

Well it's not a view. It's just incorrect! You've obviously no interest in going off and googling socialism and actually educating yourself about it. Anyway, SF are not socialist (or Communist as you put it), so this debate is pointless.

maccored

Deleted User wrote: »

As I see it,this dying government,weak government,gomdaw government were pushed into accepting the "bail out".
They are wholely responsible for having to keel over and accept it as it was their policies that led to the state being refused borrowings and it was their policies that led the state to living beyond it's means by 20 billion or so.

It was never going to stand in it's present form.
The next government will have a mandate to undo as much of the damage as possible but they won't be doing it the SF way ie to píss off lenders altogether,lenders that like it or lump it we need and lenders we have to humour into lowering interest rates on the money we need from them.

You could of course go down the SF route of taxing middle and higher incomes to the tune of 60% or more leading to the death of incentive and drive amongst the most driven in the economy and leading to an increase in the black economy too.
We tried that mullarkey in the 80's and we ended up being a backward broken little country.
No thanks.
Common sense and middle ground instead please.

As for the Universal charge,God,whoever thought that one up and whoever thought mortgaging the country to pay for bankers mad mistakes that had nothing to do with joe citizen is deluded.
None of the opposition parties want that to go through in its current form.
Even if it's the budget in december this year that they deal with it,they will deal with it,thats it dealt with and something different to a 30 year millstone as big as the one FF have keeled over to agree to.

so basically, you dont agree with the eu/imf 'bailout' either, but you think someone else will do it better that SF intend to do. Very interesting. Very, very, very interesting when you consider the shinners have at least nailed their flag to the wall on this, unlike Labour and FG who have weakly waffled about it without actually giving away too much detail.

Personally, i prefer the people who speak out loud about what they would like to do, rather than those (lab and fg in this instance) who say what people kinda want to hear, yet we have no idea if they have the balls to do it.

Plus I find it a mixture of funny and horrifying that you can slag off SF for doing pretty much what you want some other party to do.

I also completely disagree with your analysis of how SFs plans will work out. You cant make an omlette without breaking some eggs.

The Volt

LeixlipRed wrote: »

And proper democracy is what actual socialism is built on. You haven't a clue what you're talking about but that doesn't stop you chiming in.

Spot on. Democracy is a cornerstone of socialism.

wolfpawnat

Without going OT too much. That 20 billion that we would have to take out of public spending is cheaper than paying this loan and its interest! But people only hear a large number and a small one (as is the power of advertising) and go straight for the small one!

the_syco

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

For example, when people state that they wouldn't vote for them because of past links with the IRA when both FF and FG can trace thier routes to the same organisation. What's the difference?

No member of FF or FG gave a lift to someone who killed a Garda in a botched robbery (McCabe was killed, but IIRC, nothing was robbed?).

BLIZZARD7 wrote: »

Or the IMF will take control of our finances and then we will see very severe cuts in all sectors

LoL. Name a country where IMF are in direct control of a countries finances?

Deleted User wrote: »

Asked by Cathal on morning Ireland now,would Gerry adams unilaterally default on the ecb/imf deal,he said yes.
Asked where he was going to get the money to run the country as he was doing no cuts,he hummed and hawed..and said he'd negotiate with the lenders..
Asked what if the lenders response was to unilaterally not lend to us because we unilaterally default [we'd be a bad lend] he had no answer.

Holy f**k, I knew that they didn't have much of a clue, but that's taking the piss.

MazG

I won't be voting for Sinn Fein either, because of their unrealistic economic policies (anyone hear Pearse Doherty on Matt Cooper a few weeks back stating that the government should be creating jobs for builders, plumbers etc. Here's a clue Pearse, this country had waaaaay too many plumbers, builders and electricians - some of them, sadly, need to change careers) and because there still remains a number of 'the disappeared' (7, I think) who have never been found and I'm of the opinion that some one in Sinn Fein, or one of their buddies, know exactly where those bodies are.

I did get a giggle out of the 9 o'clock news last Sunday though.
- Announcement from the Labour party outside Leinster House (I think), Eamonn Gilmore front and centre, various party members huddled close for added sincerety.
- Announcement from the Green Party from some hotel function room. Similar format to Labour party
- Announcement from Mr Man-of-the-people Gerry Adams from some grafitti ridden alleyway - 'in da hood'. He may as well have had a banner behind him stating 'I'm working class like you! I am! I am!'

Dan_Solo

the_syco wrote: »

No member of FF or FG gave a lift to someone who killed a Garda in a botched robbery (McCabe was killed, but IIRC, nothing was robbed?).

As I said earlier, right now there's likely to be literally (yes, literally) thousands of Irish people dying due to crap health and social services during our undefined term of economic slavery. We will not be able to pay back the IMF/ECB loan. The right-wing (and that includes Labour) parties will kill far more than one garda in this national suicide bid.

BLIZZARD7

squod wrote: »

I quote........



So what do you suggest we do with these IMF/EU loans? You do understand it's not in the country's interest to borrow this money, don't you?

Of course it's not in the country's interest to get an IMF/EU loan, but nobody wants to lend Ireland money at a reasonable interest rate and the people in this country don't like cuts, which will seem very tame so far compared to what we will get if we don't take some sort of loan, as has being said already.

Where are you getting your €100 billion figure by the way?





Dan

BLIZZARD7

the_syco wrote: »

LoL. Name a country where IMF are in direct control of a countries finances?

Er they imposed huge cuts in Latvia didn't they? I can name more countries if you wish.





Dan

Chucky the tree

Dan_Solo wrote: »

As I said earlier, right now there's likely to be literally (yes, literally) thousands of Irish people dying due to crap health and social services during our undefined term of economic slavery. We will not be able to pay back the IMF/ECB loan. The right-wing (and that includes Labour) parties will kill far more than one garda in this national suicide bid.

So you really think Sinn feins plan of not accepting the pay bailout, refusing to make significant cuts to public sector pay and zero cuts social welfare and investing money to improve are crap health service all while we try and sort out or €15bn deficet is a realistic one? Your living in cloud cuckoo land if you think SF can refuse the bailout while saving thousands of Irish people dying due to a crap health and social services. Without the bailout we can't even afford to pay any public sector worker in 6 months time.

maccored

Chucky the tree wrote: »

So you really think Sinn feins plan of not accepting the pay bailout, refusing to make significant cuts to public sector pay and zero cuts social welfare and investing money to improve are crap health service all while we try and sort out or €15bn deficet is a realistic one? Your living in cloud cuckoo land if you think SF can refuse the bailout while saving thousands of Irish people dying due to a crap health and social services. Without the bailout we can't even afford to pay any public sector worker in 6 months time.

"refusing to make significant cuts to public sector pay" - at least get your facts right. they want to take more money off those in the public sector who make more money, and not off those who dont make a lot of money (which is whats happening now).

wolfpawnat

Chucky the tree wrote: »

So you really think Sinn feins plan of not accepting the pay bailout, refusing to make significant cuts to public sector pay and zero cuts social welfare and investing money to improve are crap health service all while we try and sort out or €15bn deficet is a realistic one? Your living in cloud cuckoo land if you think SF can refuse the bailout while saving thousands of Irish people dying due to a crap health and social services. Without the bailout we can't even afford to pay any public sector worker in 6 months time.

So you rather someone who is barely scraping by on minimum wage and disabled people to both be cut drastically, while those earning approximately 45,000 a year get taxed a bit more!?! Not very humanitarian is it?

Also a measly 1% tax on anyone with assets worth over a million. It's GENIUS, 1 % is nothing to those people AND it saves some person who has lost their job and is about to lose the roof over their head from suffering further!

BLIZZARD7

wolfpawnat wrote: »

So you rather someone who is barely scraping by on minimum wage and disabled people to both be cut drastically, while those earning approximately 45,000 a year get taxed a bit more!?! Not very humanitarian is it?

If only it was that easy! There are people I know who are on the dole or minimum wage that are better off than others who are on 45,000 a year, reason being there are some people on 45,000 a year who are struggling to pay their mortgage and support a family at the same time. How much do people on 45,000 actually earn, after tax?





Dan

Chucky the tree

maccored wrote: »

"refusing to make significant cuts to public sector pay" - at least get your facts right. they want to take more money off those in the public sector who make more money, and not off those who dont make a lot of money (which is whats happening now).

In their pre-budget they wanted to cap the maximum salary of a public servant to 4 times the entry rate, with would result in massive saving of €350m. Wow, all our problems are now nearly sorted, we just have another €14 odd billion in deficit left. Oh wait, scrap that, Sinn Fein wanted to spend €226m on Christmas bonuses for people of social welfare.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

So you rather someone who is barely scraping by on minimum wage and disabled people to both be cut drastically, while those earning approximately 45,000 a year get taxed a bit more!?! Not very humanitarian is it?

Also a measly 1% tax on anyone with assets worth over a million. It's GENIUS, 1 % is nothing to those people AND it saves some person who has lost their job and is about to lose the roof over their head from suffering further!

There third rate of tax will raise €410m, while the 1% tax on assets will raise €1bn. I'm sure I don't need to add up these figures and take them away from €15bn to show how unworkable there policy of limited cuts to Public sector and social welfare is.

wolfpawnat

BLIZZARD7 wrote: »

If only it was that easy! There are people I know who are on the dole or minimum wage that are better off than others who are on 45,000 a year, reason being there are some people on 45,000 a year who are struggling to pay there mortgage and support a family at the same time. How much do people on 45,000 actually earn, after tax?





Dan

Without getting too OT though, I would say roughly (I could be wrong) basing it on the married couples tax rates about 32,000, if that. I am on SW (temporarily I pray!) and after rent I have 150 a week to pay bills and raise a child! I can't take anymore cuts. I could have bought a house during the boom. I knew they were getting insanely priced and thank God I didn't!

It is lose lose and someone has to cough up the money!

Chucky the tree wrote: »

There third rate of tax will raise €410m, while the 1% tax on assets will raise €1bn. I'm sure I don't need to add up these figures and take them away from €15bn to show how unworkable there policy of limited cuts to Public sector and social welfare is.

I am no fool, SW would have to be cut, but not as badly if the wealthy (who FF and FG are adamant on protecting) would have to pay their share! I think a lot of people would take their cuts knowing we all took them rather just us lowly urchins here at the bottom! I would not feel so bad about going without a new pair of jeans for myself because the ones I have are getting too tattered if I knew that those on top were cut too!

Chucky the tree

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I am no fool, SW would have to be cut, but not as badly if the wealthy (who FF and FG are adamant on protecting) would have to pay their share! I think a lot of people would take their cuts knowing we all took them rather just us lowly urchins here at the bottom! I would not feel so bad about going without a new pair of jeans for myself because the ones I have are getting too tattered if I knew that those on top were cut too!

If you are no fool why are you considering voting for a party who have no plans to cut SW? Unless you hope they are lying, in which case voting for a party on the basis they lie about there promises seems a bit strange.