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Who has right of way thread?

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    #2
    H8GHOTI
    Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭H8GHOTI


    Your right, there are some confusing ones there. And when people are confused when driving, it's dangerous.
    I can answer the Spring Lane one. Coming up the one way section, just at the junction where your link points to, there is a stop sign. So that sorts that one out.

    One that gets me is this:
    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cork,+County+Cork,+Ireland&layer=c&cbll=51.900488,-8.465216&panoid=fpCRRrvRg3ciFI81-xGHTQ&cbp=12,282.87,,0,11.09&ll=51.900515,-8.465395&spn=0,0.013078&t=h&z=17

    There are only 2 lanes here for turning left, coming from Penrose Wharf, but on the bridge over to the bus station there are 3 lanes. Which lane do you go in to for the middle lane on the bridge. Right lane makes sense to me but I've seen loads using the left lane and cutting over.


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    #3
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    themonboys wrote: »
    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&...,71.08,,0,8.71

    As you know the car coming down the hill has right of way. As both other cars must yield [two stop signs], it then falls back to the yield to the right, so the car coming up the hill has the right of way.

    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&...288.66,,0,9.16

    Two lanes into 3 it's not it's still two lanes. Well all lanes shift. Vehicles on the right lane must shift over and go right at the next junction [Ship Street]. Traffic in the left lane must shift right and have option of turning right [Ship Street[ or gong straight ahead [on Patrick's Quay].
    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cork,+County+Cork,+Ireland&ll=51.9002,-8.463534&spn=0,0.004292&z=18&layer=c&cbll=51.900101,-8.463455&panoid=v7KMhHrk0mLJYzhpSY5zhQ&cbp=12,288.66,,0,9.16

    This is very simple, it's mixing traffic, traffic on the right has right of way, traffic following the bent arrow must mix ~ a bus has precedence and must be given way to. But it is a mixing lane and it is an offence to be cut off by the traffic holding right of way.
    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cork,+County+Cork,+Ireland&layer=c&cbll=51.873197,-8.52305&panoid=9vbbwAnDdBcqnF7cq1t00w&cbp=12,150.29,,0,12.46&ll=51.873153,-8.523073&spn=0,0.034332&z=15

    THIS IS DANGEROUS> Pure and simple
    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cork,+County+Cork,+Ireland&ll=51.897814,-8.482915&spn=0,0.008583&z=17&layer=c&cbll=51.897819,-8.482914&panoid=4kfw83mU9s490u2OzhtSRQ&cbp=12,65.37,,0,21.12

    The traffic in the left lane have an obligation to go left, the traffic on the right lane shift left after this junction, again buses take precedence. As I look at the road markings it seems both lanes can proceed straight ahead ~ someone changed this.

    McCutain Street. Traffic in the left lane go left or straight ahead [there are two lanes left stays left centre stays centre]: centre lane goes straight ahead or take middle or far left lane turning right.

    Traffic in right lane must turn right and should stay right. [but I know a lot shift to centre]


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    #4
    Kimono-Girl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,160 ✭✭✭Kimono-Girl


    themonboys wrote: »
    A disappearing lane, no arrows to suggest the inside lane is going to end until AFTER the lanes merge. So who has right of way?
    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cork,+County+Cork,+Ireland&layer=c&cbll=51.873197,-8.52305&panoid=9vbbwAnDdBcqnF7cq1t00w&cbp=12,150.29,,0,12.46&ll=51.873153,-8.523073&spn=0,0.034332&z=15

    i drive this junction every week, usually (9/10) traffic in the right lane turns right into the topaz garage,

    traffic on the left flows freely,

    other times i find traffic going through there is good enough to mix together without much issues, it need to be fixed though, its badly designed i think due to the dunnes enterance, and the business to the left of the road.


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    #5
    leahyl
    Registered Users Posts: 14,283 ✭✭✭✭leahyl


    H8GHOTI wrote: »

    One that gets me is this:
    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cork,+County+Cork,+Ireland&layer=c&cbll=51.900488,-8.465216&panoid=fpCRRrvRg3ciFI81-xGHTQ&cbp=12,282.87,,0,11.09&ll=51.900515,-8.465395&spn=0,0.013078&t=h&z=17

    There are only 2 lanes here for turning left, coming from Penrose Wharf, but on the bridge over to the bus station there are 3 lanes. Which lane do you go in to for the middle lane on the bridge. Right lane makes sense to me but I've seen loads using the left lane and cutting over.

    THANK YOU!! This ALWAYS happens to me!!! The cars on the left lane turning over the bridge are meant to remain in the left lane but they ALWAYS cut across to the middle lane which is just wrong! You have to be so careful there. If you are in the middle lane you can go in the middle lane on the bridge or the right lane or you can go straight ahead. If you are in the right lane by penrose wharf then you must go straight ahead!


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    #6
    rcdk1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 558 ✭✭✭rcdk1


    North Main Street / Kyle Street Junction
    A lot of people don't realise that the cars coming from Kyle Street have priority at this junction. Unfortunately Street View doesn't cover the short stretch of North Main Street between Adelaide Street and Kyle Street but in the link above you can see the back of the triangular Yield sign.


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    #7
    CoalBucket
    Closed Accounts Posts: 971 ✭✭✭CoalBucket


    @ OP

    In the first instance the car going up the hill has the right of way. The stop sign is to allow for the traffic coming down the hill turning.

    The penrose wharf bridge one is the car in the left hand lane has possesion of the left hand lane only on penrose wharf. The car in the right hand lane has the two lanes to either take the outside lane to go straight on to Patricks Quay or right to Ship Street (outside lane for Lower Glanmire Road) and inside lane to turn right only to ship street and on to rear of penrose wharf or Kent station car park.

    The third one on washington street, the car on the inside has the right of way as it is the left hand lane that merges.

    The fourth one at bishopstown roundabout is basically the same as above but there are no road markings. That one in particular is a disaster as the lights before allow for 2 lanes of traffic.

    The dyke parade one is anyones guess and there must be loads of tips there with the volume of traffic.

    The last one is a particular favourite of mine as I used to work close by it and there was a crash at least twice a week. The right hand lane is for the lane turning to Particks quay only. The middle lane can turn right into the two lanes leading to Brian Boru Bridge to allow for the lane options on that bridge. The middle lane can also go straight on to the Lower Glanmire Road right hand lane only. The left hand lane is for going straight on to Lower Glanmire Road left hand lane only, or turning left for Summer Hill North.
    The crashes were always caused by people in the right hand lane turning right but trying to get into the middle lane on Brian Boru St.


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    #8
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    rcdk1 wrote: »
    North Main Street / Kyle Street Junction
    A lot of people don't realise that the cars coming from Kyle Street have priority at this junction. Unfortunately Street View doesn't cover the short stretch of North Main Street between Adelaide Street and Kyle Street but in the link above you can see the back of the triangular Yield sign.

    Yes, but technically this is illegal, traffic on the MAIN road have priority, and a few minuscule stop signs are only the FIRST stage, in ordinary law the by-laws have have NOT been changed.

    There is insufficient measures in place at this junction to show that the the priority is changed, as a tip just ram any vehicle that challenges you and win, win, win ~~~this is the NEW falling into the pothole that our northern brethren made famous.

    It's like when Cllr. Con O'Leary fell down the steps of City Hall, it's THAT glorious, so go for it, smash into anything, from any direction, cause yer both right.


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    #9
    rcdk1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 558 ✭✭✭rcdk1


    gbee wrote: »
    Yes, but technically this is illegal, traffic on the MAIN road have priority, and a few minuscule stop signs are only the FIRST stage, in ordinary law the by-laws have have NOT been changed.

    There is insufficient measures in place at this junction to show that the the priority is changed
    I agree that the signs and road markings are insufficient and i'm not sure why the priority was changed in the first place.

    I know that to change speed limits (in terms of location and speed) requires legal amendments etc but as far as i know this is not the case for changing the priority at a junction. I'd be genuinely interested to know if this is not the case.


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    #10
    54kroc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,376 ✭✭✭54kroc


    gbee wrote: »
    There is insufficient measures in place at this junction to show that the the priority is changed, as a tip just ram any vehicle that challenges you and win, win, win ~~~this is the NEW falling into the pothole that our northern brethren made famous.

    It's been that way for years, there's a two yield sign's for people coming up the north main street,it's hardly the council's fault if people can't be bothered to pay attention.


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    #11
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    cork45 wrote: »
    It's been that way for years, there's a two yield sign's for people coming up the north main street,it's hardly the council's fault if people can't be bothered to pay attention.

    It's like that a couple of years, but it's been a straight road for hundreds of years. You can't change overnight, and the signs are bad and there is no road markings and nothing to warn people that they are approaching a priority junction.

    People dive on instinct and are taught to expect certain conditions. Yielding to the right is the one most ingrained, when I come up Kyle Street I have to stop, it's a bleedin T junction.


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    #12
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users Posts: 9,563 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    CoalBucket wrote: »

    The penrose wharf bridge one is the car in the left hand lane has possesion of the left hand lane only on penrose wharf. The car in the right hand lane has the two lanes to either take the outside lane to go straight on to Patricks Quay or right to Ship Street (outside lane for Lower Glanmire Road) and inside lane to turn right only to ship street and on to rear of penrose wharf or Kent station car park.

    I used to think this but it's incorrect. Zoom out of street view into satellite view and it's quite clear that the left lane on the bridge splits into two after the yellow box. Right lane on approach can only go to right hand lane after the box. Admittedly it's not that clearcut when driving though.


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    #13
    rebelpixie
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭rebelpixie


    The Penrose wharf junction is confusing me now that I have read some of the posts above. I drive this everyday. I pass Jurys inn, I'm in the right lane. Cars are to my left. I go through the lights, as far as I am concerned, I'm staying in the same lane (now the middle lane of 3 lanes). As I'm taking the bend, 9 times out of ten, the car to my left cuts across me. I take it this isn't right? Firstly, shouldn't that car stay in its left lane until the road straightens and then move over? Overtaking at traffic lights and a bend! Secondly, most of the time the driver doesn't even indicate! Surely I have right of way? Can anyone clarify this as it really annoys me!

    Gbee could you explain why it's an offence to be cut off from traffic holding right of way? How do you know it's a mixing lane? do the road markings indicate this?

    2nd road is a similar issue. The colosseum corner. Sweet mother of God! I'm driving from McCurtain st, I'm in the middle lane, I turn right, to stay in the middle lane. I'm so used to this, that I keep an eye out for the car on the inside lane, which normally cuts across me into the middle lane. I've had to brake here numerous times. It seems to me that some drivers think they can do what they want and to hell with the consequences!


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    #14
    rcdk1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 558 ✭✭✭rcdk1


    gbee wrote: »
    Two lanes into 3 it's not it's still two lanes. Well all lanes shift. Vehicles on the right lane must shift over and go right at the next junction [Ship Street]. Traffic in the left lane must shift right and have option of turning right [Ship Street[ or gong straight ahead [on Patrick's Quay].

    Sorry CoalBucket and rebelpixie but I agree with gbee (don't tell him/her/it though :p) for two reasons.
    First if you look at the satellite photo below:
    145421.jpg
    I've extended the curve of the dashed white line on the approach (A-B) and it clearly connects onto the line between lanes 2 & 3. Therefore cars in right lane on the approach over the bridge (B) should continue into lane 3 and those in lane A should continue into lane 2. People in Lane A could go into lane 1 as well but it's pointless (see below).

    The second reason is that for all intents and purposes, for people coming over the bridge there are only two exit lanes: 2 & 3. Since cars in Lane 1 can only turn left back over the other bridge (Brian Boru Bridge), there's no reason for cars that have just crossed over on the Michael Collins Bridge to cross back over the river. Realistically Lane 1 is only for cars coming into the city from the East.


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    #15
    rebelpixie
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭rebelpixie


    What you said and the picture you posted makes sense! I want to continue on up to Patricks quay. Should I be in the left lane so? Can I stay in the right lane and just let anyone to my left go ahead? I'm so used to doing that and would be nervous doing otherwise.


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    #16
    rebelpixie
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭rebelpixie


    Can anyone explain this quote from gbee about Penrose quay:

    This is very simple, it's mixing traffic, traffic on the right has right of way, traffic following the bent arrow must mix ~ a bus has precedence and must be given way to. But it is a mixing lane and it is an offence to be cut off by the traffic holding right of way.

    So who has right of way?


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    #17
    rcdk1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 558 ✭✭✭rcdk1


    rebelpixie wrote: »
    What you said and the picture you posted makes sense! I want to continue on up to Patricks quay. Should I be in the left lane so? Can I stay in the right lane and just let anyone to my left go ahead? I'm so used to doing that and would be nervous doing otherwise.
    Best to use the correct lane as shown in the picture, although admittedly as Padraig Mor said, the yellow box confuses things. If you want to go onto Patricks Quay, I find the best way to navigate this junction is to dive in the left lane but to keep your right wheel on/close to the centreline and follow the curve around the bend.

    If someone gets in your way blow the horn at them and make rude gestures :mad:
    rebelpixie wrote: »
    Can anyone explain this quote from gbee about Penrose quay:

    This is very simple, it's mixing traffic, traffic on the right has right of way, traffic following the bent arrow must mix ~ a bus has precedence and must be given way to. But it is a mixing lane and it is an offence to be cut off by the traffic holding right of way.

    So who has right of way?
    I'm open to correction but I think that comment refers to the link below it for the Bandon Road Roundabout and not Penrose Quay.


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    #18
    rebelpixie
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭rebelpixie


    rcdk1 wrote: »
    If someone gets in your way blow the horn at them and make rude gestures :mad:

    I was already blowing the horn at people in the left hand lane moving in front of me! I'll try that tomorrow, thanks.


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    #19
    themonboys
    Closed Accounts Posts: 269 ✭✭themonboys


    There's actually an answer to a lot of these dangerous junctions around the city, but it's really high tech and I'm not sure if the powers that be are ready for such a radical change. It comes in the form of a white liquid and you apply it with a brush (well spray). It's called paint and the markings it leaves behind can actually guide you around the corner, clearly marking out the lanes so you don't have to ask in your local internet forum .:)

    The Australians seemed to have figured this one out already
    http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=anzac+parade+sydney&aq=&sll=-33.899487,151.186981&sspn=0.206314,0.287704&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Anzac+Parade,+Sydney+New+South+Wales,+Australia&ll=-33.918134,151.242102&spn=0.000403,0.000562&t=k&z=20


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    #20
    themonboys
    Closed Accounts Posts: 269 ✭✭themonboys


    H8GHOTI wrote: »
    Your right, there are some confusing ones there. And when people are confused when driving, it's dangerous.
    I can answer the Spring Lane one. Coming up the one way section, just at the junction where your link points to, there is a stop sign. So that sorts that one out.
    gbee wrote: »
    As you know the car coming down the hill has right of way. As both other cars must yield [two stop signs], it then falls back to the yield to the right, so the car coming up the hill has the right of way.



    CoalBucket wrote: »
    @ OP

    In the first instance the car going up the hill has the right of way. The stop sign is to allow for the traffic coming down the hill turning.

    I'd agree with all of the above but I'd be very weary in pulling out because loads of people just don't stop, especially if there's no car coming down the hill.


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    #21
    themonboys
    Closed Accounts Posts: 269 ✭✭themonboys


    rcdk1 wrote: »
    North Main Street / Kyle Street Junction
    A lot of people don't realise that the cars coming from Kyle Street have priority at this junction. Unfortunately Street View doesn't cover the short stretch of North Main Street between Adelaide Street and Kyle Street but in the link above you can see the back of the triangular Yield sign.

    That's drives me mad, it's clearly marked with a Yield sign. Same thing happens here after they changed it a few years back.
    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cork,+County+Cork,+Ireland&ll=51.900621,-8.481228&spn=0.0003,0.000562&t=h&z=20


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    #22
    themonboys
    Closed Accounts Posts: 269 ✭✭themonboys


    rebelpixie wrote: »
    Can anyone explain this quote from gbee about Penrose quay:

    This is very simple, it's mixing traffic, traffic on the right has right of way, traffic following the bent arrow must mix ~ a bus has precedence and must be given way to. But it is a mixing lane and it is an offence to be cut off by the traffic holding right of way.

    So who has right of way?

    As rcd said, thats about Bandon Road Roundabout and he's basically saying that traffic in the left lane has to merge into the right lane while giving way to the right ( ie either someone lets them in or no more cars are in the right lane). The exception are buses because the traffic in the right lane has to give right ( well left) of way to the bus. This applies to all buses on all routes that are pulling out from the left. Basically you are obliged by law to let a bus out.


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    #23
    themonboys
    Closed Accounts Posts: 269 ✭✭themonboys


    Not a case of right of way but a really strange place to put a stop sign, it's a good few meters back from the corner.

    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cork,+County+Cork,+Ireland&ll=51.897277,-8.412378&spn=0,0.000562&t=k&z=20&layer=c&cbll=51.897277,-8.412635&panoid=eWrXTFo8XJ7EC33KUInjQQ&cbp=12,341.32,,0,15


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    #24
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users Posts: 9,563 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    themonboys wrote: »
    Not a case of right of way but a really strange place to put a stop sign, it's a good few meters back from the corner.

    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cork,+County+Cork,+Ireland&ll=51.897277,-8.412378&spn=0,0.000562&t=k&z=20&layer=c&cbll=51.897277,-8.412635&panoid=eWrXTFo8XJ7EC33KUInjQQ&cbp=12,341.32,,0,15

    I used to live there for a while. It's because the bus comes around the corner to go up that (narrow) road and wouldn't be able to get around the corner if cars were stopped further down.


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    #25
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    Padraig Mor wrote: »
    I used to live there for a while. It's because the bus comes around the corner to go up that (narrow) road and wouldn't be able to get around the corner if cars were stopped further down.

    The problem is of course, you have to pass the line to see anything coming. I still live here but when I arrived 23 years ago, this road had right of way as it was the MAIN Road.

    It's now changed to a T junction [and has been for a few years], it was changed to facilitate the bus ~ but as I reference, if only works if the bus is at the junction first with any traffic coming down Convent Road being far enough back up to stop at the line and allow the bus to pass.


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    #26
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users Posts: 9,563 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    gbee wrote: »
    The problem is of course, you have to pass the line to see anything coming. I still live here but when I arrived 23 years ago, this road had right of way as it was the MAIN Road.

    It's now changed to a T junction [and has been for a few years], it was changed to facilitate the bus ~ but as I reference, if only works if the bus is at the junction first with any traffic coming down Convent Road being far enough back up to stop at the line and allow the bus to pass.

    True. I think it's really a "slow down and approach the corner slowly in case the No. 2 is coming" sign.


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    #27
    themonboys
    Closed Accounts Posts: 269 ✭✭themonboys


    Here's another one, who has right of way to enter the new lane?

    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cork,+County+Cork,+Ireland&ll=51.877379,-8.413682&spn=0,0.017166&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.877437,-8.413781&panoid=j8wlbuNvKLExLe4a7K5cUA&cbp=12,133.94,,0,6.91


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    #28
    rcdk1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 558 ✭✭✭rcdk1


    themonboys wrote: »
    Here's another one, who has right of way to enter the new lane?

    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cork,+County+Cork,+Ireland&ll=51.877379,-8.413682&spn=0,0.017166&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.877437,-8.413781&panoid=j8wlbuNvKLExLe4a7K5cUA&cbp=12,133.94,,0,6.91
    Admittedly the lining isn't the best but it's pretty clear from the gantry sign and road markings that, of the original three lanes, it's the lane on the left that splits in two.
    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cork,+County+Cork,+Ireland&t=h&layer=c&cbll=51.877598,-8.414071&panoid=2cesf8IPWDg7a1qtt4kNUA&cbp=12,133.64,,0,7.41&ll=51.877643,-8.414176&spn=0,0.01929&z=16


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    #29
    seniorstaff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 84 ✭✭seniorstaff


    check the road markings again
    your incorrect re cars going up the hill, the traffic has priority coming down from the fire station end and turning right, the other sides of that junction Both have stop signs and lines!!!
    In the first instance the car going up the hill has the right of way. The stop sign is to allow for the traffic coming down the hill turning.

    The penrose wharf bridge one is the car in the left hand lane has possesion of the left hand lane only on penrose wharf. The car in the right hand lane has the two lanes to either take the outside lane to go straight on to Patricks Quay or right to Ship Street (outside lane for Lower Glanmire Road) and inside lane to turn right only to ship street and on to rear of penrose wharf or Kent station car park.

    The third one on washington street, the car on the inside has the right of way as it is the left hand lane that merges.

    The fourth one at bishopstown roundabout is basically the same as above but there are no road markings. That one in particular is a disaster as the lights before allow for 2 lanes of traffic.

    The dyke parade one is anyones guess and there must be loads of tips there with the volume of traffic.

    The last one is a particular favourite of mine as I used to work close by it and there was a crash at least twice a week. The right hand lane is for the lane turning to Particks quay only. The middle lane can turn right into the two lanes leading to Brian Boru Bridge to allow for the lane options on that bridge. The middle lane can also go straight on to the Lower Glanmire Road right hand lane only. The left hand lane is for going straight on to Lower Glanmire Road left hand lane only, or turning left for Summer Hill North.
    The crashes were always caused by people in the right hand lane turning right but trying to get into the middle lane on Brian Boru St.[/QUOTE]


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    #30
    OSiriS
    Registered Users Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭OSiriS


    seniorstaff wrote: »
    The penrose wharf bridge one is the car in the left hand lane has possesion of the left hand lane only on penrose wharf. The car in the right hand lane has the two lanes to either take the outside lane to go straight on to Patricks Quay or right to Ship Street (outside lane for Lower Glanmire Road) and inside lane to turn right only to ship street and on to rear of penrose wharf or Kent station car park.

    In the overhead shot posted by rcdk1, you can clearly see the left lane opening out to the left and middle lanes on Penrose, with the right lane heading into Ship St. Extend those road markings through the yellow box, and you are crossing lanes if you move from the right to the middle lane. With both the left and right lanes crossing the bridge having the option of turning up Ship St. from penrose, it doesn't make much sense for the right lane to have right of way over the middle lane.


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    #31
    Funsterdelux
    Registered Users Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Funsterdelux


    OSiriS wrote: »
    In the overhead shot posted by rcdk1, you can clearly see the left lane opening out to the left and middle lanes on Penrose, with the right lane heading into Ship St. Extend those road markings through the yellow box, and you are crossing lanes if you move from the right to the middle lane. With both the left and right lanes crossing the bridge having the option of turning up Ship St. from penrose, it doesn't make much sense for the right lane to have right of way over the middle lane.

    I agree! When I was doing driving lessons I was told in similar situations you stay in the left lane. And clearly the road markings say that too.

    This morning I was in the left lane going into the middle lane at Penrose and some "biddy" was in the right lane and cut across me! She then proceeded up Patricks quay and Camben Pl in the left lane, through the lights at Carrolls Quay, then she turned right at the laast minute up Johns Street!

    They really need to repaint a lot of junctions and put up signs! Since you can't seem educate people who've been driving for years.


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