G String Nightmares

Arpa

Anyone else notice this?

Been playing acoustic and electric guitar for about ten years now and fairly okay, but since the beginning I've had a headache with g string tuning. The third from bottom. I'm a trained musician and my ear is pretty good so I know it's not my hearing.

The issue is...if I tune the guitar correctly and play an open G chord, the g string wil be perfectly in tune, however if I then move to a barre chord in E shape, the G string sounds a fraction out. So I start again tune it using an opeen E chord. Perfect all barre chords sound grand but then when you switch to an open C, G, D, F...and the variants, G is slightly out again.

It seems that the G string is so temperemental. Can either be tuned to E/Am positions all the way up the fret and sound fine or can be tuned to open shapes all the way, but never achieving a happy medium between both.

Hope I'm making sense, I don't know all the guitar lingo, just play it.
But it's really starting to annoy me. It happens on every guitar I play not just my own. If I get my friend to tune it, I notice the same. Using a tuner...exactly the same.

Is there something inherent that I just have to live with? Also it's starting to affect song writing whereby I will actually avoid certain chord shapes to avoid hearing the g slightly out.

Please someone tell me I'm not going mad. Its doing my head in. If someone even mentions the G string I have panic attacks, even if its the lovely girly type of G-string.

Strings.ie

First thing to check is your Guitar, it just might need a good setup to address any issues.

Do you get the same problem with new strings? I find as strings age tuning problems appear.

For me its always been the B string that is the problem. You can use a digital tuner to get it perfectly in tune but there is always some chords where its just out of tune. In the end I have to put up with some chords not being perfect. Your average punter & indeed fellow band member can't hear it but I can :mad:

In my experience its all to do with the Guitar. Higher end Guitars, especially those that are hand made seem to suffer less from this problem.

Rigsby

Strings.ie wrote: »

First thing to check is your Guitar, it just might need a good setup to address any issues.

+1. Could be an intonation problem. This would have to be done in conjunction with an over all set up. If you want to try this yourself, here is a link ( one of thousands to be got on the web). Just be careful when adjusting the truss rod. A little is a lot here. Otherwise you could get it set up by a professional.



http://users.powernet.co.uk/guitars/setuptut.htm

-=al=-

pesky g string, definitely more tempermental and i know what your talking about, i remember reading something about it and explaining how it works etc...

ever see the fretboard you ca get for like absolutely 100% perfect intonation? i forget the name of it at the min


edit;

http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php

strobe

-=al=- wrote: »

http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php

Ha. That's fukking mental. Wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes.

ciaranmac

I may be talking rubbish here, but I'll have a guess anyway...

Even if your guitar's intonation is perfect, some notes will be slightly out because of how the musical (chromatic) scale is put together. In a major chord, played on a normally fretted instrument where all the semitones are equal, the third note is slightly sharp relative to the mathematical harmony it represents. If you're playing a guitar with distortion, that dissonance is amplified - which is why power chords are used, leaving out the third note. If you're playing an open G chord the third (B) is played on the A string, but a G barre chord has it on the G string, so it sounds 'off' if the G string is perfectly in tune relative to the E string. Same goes for any E shape barre chord. On an A shape chord it is on the B string.

Ostrom

Definately notice this, I posted a thread about it two months ago. When I got my strat (first 'proper' guitar), it dropped after around twenty minutes. I think paintdoctor suggested it may be due to bending, and I do tend to bend that string a bit. Cant say I've noticed it on the acoustic though, but I usually just do open chords with it.

stevejazzx

-=al=- wrote: »

pesky g string, definitely more tempermental and i know what your talking about, i remember reading something about it and explaining how it works etc...

ever see the fretboard you ca get for like absolutely 100% perfect intonation? i forget the name of it at the min


edit;

http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php

mad....
i wish someone would do a classical version of this
awesome

Forest Master

ciaranmac wrote: »

I may be talking rubbish here, but I'll have a guess anyway...

Even if your guitar's intonation is perfect, some notes will be slightly out because of how the musical (chromatic) scale is put together. In a major chord, played on a normally fretted instrument where all the semitones are equal, the third note is slightly sharp relative to the mathematical harmony it represents. If you're playing a guitar with distortion, that dissonance is amplified - which is why power chords are used, leaving out the third note. If you're playing an open G chord the third (B) is played on the A string, but a G barre chord has it on the G string, so it sounds 'off' if the G string is perfectly in tune relative to the E string. Same goes for any E shape barre chord. On an A shape chord it is on the B string.

That explains nothing. If the guitar is in tune, it doesn't matter where you fret the triad of the chord - it's still the same 3 notes - B fretted on the A string (2nd fret) shouldn't sound any different than B fretted on the G string (4th fret) other than an octave lower.

the third note is slightly sharp relative to the mathematical harmony it represents.

This statement is the most confusing. Why would the 3rd note be sharp? Do you mean a semi-tone sharp, or just tuned-too-high sharp? Either way, neither make sense. Because a semi-tone sharp makes it a 4th, and if it's slightly sharp then its just not tuned correctly!

stevejazzx

Forest Master wrote: »

That explains nothing. If the guitar is in tune, it doesn't matter where you fret the triad of the chord - it's still the same 3 notes - B fretted on the A string (2nd fret) shouldn't sound any different than B fretted on the G string (4th fret) other than an octave lower.



This statement is the most confusing. Why would the 3rd note be sharp? Do you mean a semi-tone sharp, or just tuned-too-high sharp? Either way, neither make sense. Because a semi-tone sharp makes it a 4th, and if it's slightly sharp then its just not tuned correctly!

I think its the overtone the guitar produces plus the distance between the frets.

Here an explanation

The divisor used by all but a vanishingly small percentage of modern guitar builders is 17.817152, a figure arrived at by way of the logarithmic function "the 12th root of 2" (1.0594631). This results in precise mathematical fret spacing with the 12th fret at the exact centre of the calculated scale length. If the calculation is repeated for 24 frets, the distance from the 24th fret to the theoretical bridge saddle position will be exactly one-fourth of the calculated scale length. (The residual error is ridiculously small, less than one ten thousandth of an inch on popular guitar scales.) All very impressive. But this mathematical model is a gross oversimplification. It ignores virtually every physical parameter which governs the behaviour of vibrating strings, except one - speaking length. Tension and mass are not even considered.

If you play guitar you'll notice an out tune thing happening across strings and octaves that doesn't happen on say a piano!
Been listening to Joh Mc play on his TT. Yep definitely more fidelity.

ciaranmac

Forest Master wrote: »

That explains nothing. If the guitar is in tune, it doesn't matter where you fret the triad of the chord - it's still the same 3 notes - B fretted on the A string (2nd fret) shouldn't sound any different than B fretted on the G string (4th fret) other than an octave lower.



This statement is the most confusing. Why would the 3rd note be sharp? Do you mean a semi-tone sharp, or just tuned-too-high sharp? Either way, neither make sense. Because a semi-tone sharp makes it a 4th, and if it's slightly sharp then its just not tuned correctly!

Like Stevejazzx said, the chromatic scale is only an approximation. The harmonies it's based on are 1:2 (octave), 2:3 (fifth), 3:4 (fourth), 4:5 (major third) etc. In the chromatic scale the notes are spaced so that all the semitones are equal, which means some intervals in the scale are wider or narrower than the mathematical harmonies - especially thirds and sixths.

Wherever you fret B and G (assuming straight frets and a perfectly tuned instrument), the B tone relative to G is a few cents sharp from the 5/4 harmony. That's why it sounds off. If you play a barre G on the third fret this happens on the G string, so it leads you to think the G string is not tuned properly. But when you play the G string as part of an open G chord it sounds fine, because you are playing the root note on that string. You might think the A string is out of tune though.

Your ear is better than mine because I don't usually hear this but I got the theory because I'm a physics nut...

-=al=-

i always find the g string the most annoying to intonate too, its just a string that likes taking the piss most of the time, i usually have it ever so ever slightly flat from its open string

Randy Shafter

I too have issues with the G string. I tune my guitar up to proper, standard pitch and the G is fine when strummed openly. Whenever i strum Am, the string sounds off! Its drives me nuts at times!

-=al=-

can't believe we've gotten this far without a g-string joke

we're getting cleverer

artvandulet

If you play electric, some people find buying sets with the third wound helps. But yeah, its kind of a case were you have to tweak the G a little more than the rest on any guitar. Certainly been my experience with every guitar i've ever played.

r.duke

for me, the G string gets the most abuse (bending) and i use to have the same issues with just the one string always going out of tune, especially on my older cheaper electric's, i thought it was the guitars set up for a long time. after a few years of frustration i had a guitar tech show me a different way to string "problem" guitars. i wrap my string around the post 3-5 times first(depending on thickness of string), then put it through the hole (sticking it through the middle/center of the wrapped coil so it locks/bites better when you wind it up to tension). i still use this method today on all my guitars, never looked back. also stretching your new strings before tuning up helps alot to break them in properly.

rcaz

stevejazzx wrote: »

If you play guitar you'll notice an out tune thing happening across strings and octaves that doesn't happen on say a piano!

It does happen on a piano though! Ciaranmac nailed it.

If you play an A on a piano, you get the one frequency regardless of the key. But that frequency should be different depending on if it's the tonic of A major or minor, or the major third of F, or the perfect fifth of D or the major seventh of G flat or whatever. If you were to compare a recording of a choral or string quartet piece with a recording of the same thing played on piano, you'd notice it then.

The equal temperament tuning system messed all this up, like ciaranmac said about the equal spacing of semitones for the chromatic scale. But then again equal temperament gave us the Well Tempered Clavier, so it's alright by me

stevejazzx

El Pr0n wrote: »

It does happen on a piano though! Ciaranmac nailed it.

Ok But I cannot hear it on a piano...maybe slightly!
But boy can I hear it on a guitar:mad:
I've even used concert guitars with amazing machine heads; even on settled strings i.e after say one weeks playing - the tuning is never right:(

rcaz

stevejazzx wrote: »

Ok But I cannot hear it on a piano...maybe slightly!
But boy can I hear it on a guitar:mad:
I've even used concert guitars with amazing machine heads; even on settled strings i.e after say one weeks playing - the tuning is never right:(

It's nothing to do with the quality of the instrument at all! It's the way modern instruments are tuned, the equal temperament system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

stevejazzx

El Pr0n wrote: »

It's nothing to do with the quality of the instrument at all! It's the way modern instruments are tuned, the equal temperament system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

I know that was point I was trying to make!:)

Arpa

Well I'm glad that it's not just me who notices it, I thought either my guitar was screwed, and every guitar I've ever had, or my ears were messed up. It is the most frustrating thing. I've started to alter chord progressions so they fit the tuning which is a constraint I would rather do without. I suppose most untrained audiences wouldn't notice it, but that's not the point...I notice it! And it kills me. Guess I'll just have to bite the bullet on this one.

rcaz

Arpa wrote: »

Well I'm glad that it's not just me who notices it, I thought either my guitar was screwed, and every guitar I've ever had, or my ears were messed up. It is the most frustrating thing. I've started to alter chord progressions so they fit the tuning which is a constraint I would rather do without. I suppose most untrained audiences wouldn't notice it, but that's not the point...I notice it! And it kills me. Guess I'll just have to bite the bullet on this one.

Get two violins, a viola and a 'cello, and three friends to help you play them