commercial tariffs

mazthespark

Anybody any idea where i would get info on commercial charges and tariffs?? i have a basic idea of them max demand etc but dont really know how that is charged etc?

would i be right in saying that its charged per kw/h like residential?
and if u go over your MIC then an extra charge is added on top of the kw/h price?

is that charged per Kva over your MIC?
so if you have a 90 Kva MIC and draw 92 then u are charged extra for the other two??

any idea of the current unit prices or where i would get them?

thanks

Stoner

going to move this to the ESB forum mazthespark

ted1

it all depends on your mic or what tariff you in for. Your right if you breach your mic your charged about two euro extra per kva. However this is not always charged out. The charge is based on your highest may demand in the month.
Your contract will give you all the details.
If you are looking for a new supplier i'd recomend ESBIE.

Electric Ireland: David

Hi mazthespark,

mazthespark wrote:

i have a basic idea of them max demand etc but dont really know how that is charged etc?

It would depend on your usage patterns. If, for example, the MIC required is greater than 50kva, and your usage pattern combines short periods of high demand with low overall consumption, then a Low Load Factor price plan may be for you. If, on the other hand, the MIC exceeds 50kva and the overall usage tends to be consistently high, a Max Demand price plan may suit.

We are currently offering a new flexible range of price plans tailored for a wide range of businesses; for a quote call us on 1850 30 50 70, or alternatively we can call you.

Thanks,

David.

bungler

ESB CS: David wrote: »

Hi mazthespark,



It would depend on your usage patterns. If, for example, the MIC required is greater than 50kva, and your usage pattern combines short periods of high demand with low overall consumption, then a Low Load Factor price plan may be for you. If, on the other hand, the MIC exceeds 50kva and the overall usage tends to be consistently high, a Max Demand price plan may suit.

We are currently offering a new flexible range of price plans tailored for a wide range of businesses; for a quote call us on 1850 30 50 70, or alternatively we can call you.

Thanks,

David.

Hi David,

Why are ESB offerig commercial savings of approx 15% but screwing customers by putting the standing charge up by 600%? My friend was sold this rip off deal and was never told how extreme the standing charge would be?

Heroditas

bungler wrote: »

Why are ESB offerig commercial savings of approx 15% but screwing customers by putting the standing charge up by 600%? My friend was sold this rip off deal and was never told how extreme the standing charge would be?

Eh? This doesn't sound right.
LVMD standing charges are always much higher than GP and GPNS charges.
You're paying for the infrastructure to handle your higher load.
The charges are freely available too.
The large increase in standing charges should be offset by the decrease in the unit price when one moves up through the various tariffs from GP right through to industrial tariffs.

mazthespark

Thanks for the replies lads. not looking to get a connection or anything I'm a spark and looking for general information about how it works etc.

so would i be right in sayin that if my mic is 200 kva and my highest reading for the month is 234kva i get charged extra for the 34kva?

bungler

Heroditas wrote: »

Eh? This doesn't sound right.
LVMD standing charges are always much higher than GP and GPNS charges.
You're paying for the infrastructure to handle your higher load.
The charges are freely available too.
The large increase in standing charges should be offset by the decrease in the unit price when one moves up through the various tariffs from GP right through to industrial tariffs.

Its not LVMD its a general purpose prime tariff, i understand the rates are dropped but ESB did not tell me friend that his standing charge would go up. so instead of getting 15% i think after the standing charge it works out at 3-4%

Heroditas

mazthespark wrote: »

Thanks for the replies lads. not looking to get a connection or anything I'm a spark and looking for general information about how it works etc.

so would i be right in sayin that if my mic is 200 kva and my highest reading for the month is 234kva i get charged extra for the 34kva?

Correct, you pay a charge each month to have the 200kVA.
Then if you exceed the 200kVA, you get charged per kVA you exceed by. This is charged at about €13 per kVA so it's a substantial penalty.
Then in the months of November to February you also get charged for your max demand between 5pm and 7pm.

bungler

mazthespark wrote: »

Thanks for the replies lads. not looking to get a connection or anything I'm a spark and looking for general information about how it works etc.

so would i be right in sayin that if my mic is 200 kva and my highest reading for the month is 234kva i get charged extra for the 34kva?

If you are constantly going over your MIC, it's best to request an increase from ESB Networs and there is a possibility that will charge you for it also

Electric Ireland: Pat

Hi Bungler

Just to clarify this post from yourself:

Bungler wrote:

Why are ESB offerig commercial savings of approx 15% but screwing customers by putting the standing charge up by 600%? My friend was sold this rip off deal and was never told how extreme the standing charge would be?

Looking at this I think your friend would seem to be on the General Purpose Prime Tariff; this means that you don’t get charged per kVa as you would with a Maximum Demand account. As previously mentioned on the thread, General Purpose Prime also carries no excess MIC charges.
Our prices are based on your MIC or kVa, and your consumption, where a customer uses a large amount of power they would benefit from the unit price being less than the regulated unit price, so essentially the more you use the greater the savings.

The standing charge is higher but we do check on all accounts before we change customer’s price plan to ensure we are offering the best and most suitable produce to match the individual customers needs.

I would be happy that this was outlined to your friend but if he/she wishes to pm me their account details I can investigate the matter fully.

Hope this helps,

Pat.

dowtcha

bungler wrote: »

If you are constantly going over your MIC, it's best to request an increase from ESB Networs and there is a possibility that will charge you for it also

Chances are there will be a charge, and one other thing to shed a bit of light here is that generally the max demand tariff measures power usage over 15 minute blocks, so say your MIC is 200kVA, which equates to 190kW, with a normal power factor, this doesn't mean that you will be fined for exceeding your MIC by drawing momentarily over 200kVA during a monthly invoicing period, it's a bit more detailed. The power draw for any fifteen periods must average over 50kVA or a quarter of the MIC of 200kVA. Say it averaged out at 55kVA for a fifteen minute period, then the MIC breach is 20kVA, because the breach for the 1/4 hour is prorated to a per hour amount by multiplying by 4

Only if the power usage for any fifteen minutes exceeds a 1/4 of the MIC is there an excess charge. It would be normal on a three phase motor to have large amounts of current inrush, depending on starter type, which would cause power use to momentarily go above say 190kW in this case, but not breach MIC over the 15 minutes - hope this helps

bungler

dowtcha wrote: »

Chances are there will be a charge, and one other thing to shed a bit of light here is that generally the max demand tariff measures power usage over 15 minute blocks, so say your MIC is 200kVA, which equates to 190kW, with a normal power factor, this doesn't mean that you will be fined for exceeding your MIC by drawing momentarily over 200kVA during a monthly invoicing period, it's a bit more detailed. The power draw for any fifteen periods must be over 50kVA or a quarter of the MIC of 200kVA. Say it came to 55kVA for a fifteen minute period, then the MIC breach is 20kVA, because the breach for the 1/4 hour is prorated to a per hour amount by multiplying by 4

Only if the power usage for any fifteen minutes exceeds a 1/4 of the MIC is there an excess charge. It would be normal on a three phase motor to have large amounts of current inrush, depending on starter type, which would cause power use to momentarily go above say 190kW in this case, but not breach MIC over the 15 minutes - hope this helps

Hi Dowtcha,

Is this for all LVMd meters or only for quarter hour LVMD's?
Cheers

dowtcha

90% sure it should be if this is much of an answer!!
I couldn't claim to be 100% sure for the reason that there are two types of meter set up for a max demand metered site. This would be an old mechanical type meter set up where the kWhr meter has the wheel spinning, and the newer type of electronic meter with wireless meter readings sent to ESB meter records.

All max demand should record max power draw over any 15 minute period, and I am fairly sure that the old mechanical max demand meters do record across 15 minutes as well, but I couldn't swear to it

Also for max demand customers, power factor is important, as if the customer doesn't have proper power correction, they can end up exceeding the MIC which is in kVA, even though the kW power import isn't excessive - just as an example, say again a site MIC is 200kVA, and with good PF it can import 190kW, without exceeding MIC, then say PF drops to 0.9 and still imports an average 190kW over 15 min, then the kVA import is 190/0.9 or 211.11 kVA, and an excess MIC fine of 11kVA

LOTTOWINNER

dowtcha wrote: »

90% sure it should be if this is much of an answer!!
I couldn't claim to be 100% sure for the reason that there are two types of meter set up for a max demand metered site. This would be an old mechanical type meter set up where the kWhr meter has the wheel spinning, and the newer type of electronic meter with wireless meter readings sent to ESB meter records.

All max demand should record max power draw over any 15 minute period, and I am fairly sure that the old mechanical max demand meters do record across 15 minutes as well, but I couldn't swear to it

Also for max demand customers, power factor is important, as if the customer doesn't have proper power correction, they can end up exceeding the MIC which is in kVA, even though the kW power import isn't excessive - just as an example, say again a site MIC is 200kVA, and with good PF it can import 190kW, without exceeding MIC, then say PF drops to 0.9 and still imports an average 190kW over 15 min, then the kVA import is 190/0.9 or 211.11 kVA, and an excess MIC fine of 11kVA

Do ESB networks also recommend factoring in an extra 5% on top of the power factor?
I was told this from our electricity supplier, they said it was considered good practice to add a little "headroom", have you heard of this before?

EI: Una

Hi LOTTOWINNER

That post from dowtcha dates back to February, so just in case they don't see your query, I'll give you ESB Networks contact details - they may be able to help you if you get in touch with them directly (ESB Networks operates as a separate entity to ESB Electric Ireland, so unfortunately we are not able to answer Networks queries here).

All the best,
Una

LOTTOWINNER

Thanks Una.

EI: Una

No problem LOTTOWINNER - happy to help.

euser1984

Hi,
I spoke to someone for a business quote through the ESB phone number and they seemed to think, it would be more expensive for me each billing cycle, to use the commercial option as opposed to the domestic, which I'm currently on. I'm using over 50,000kW per year.

Does this sound correct? I use the same amount of power every hour 24/7 consistently.

EI: Una

Hi euser1984,

David and I have escalated this, as it requires a reply from another department.

Will report back as soon as we have a response.

Regards
Una

euser1984

Electric Ireland: Una wrote: »

Hi euser1984,

David and I have escalated this, as it requires a reply from another department.

Will report back as soon as we have a response.

Regards
Una

Hi Una,
Did you hear anything back?

Thanks.

Electric Ireland: Orla

Hi euser1984,

We are still awaiting a response from the relevant department. As soon as we know more, we will respond to you.

Thanks for your patience,

Orla

dowtcha

euser1984 wrote: »

Hi,
I spoke to someone for a business quote through the ESB phone number and they seemed to think, it would be more expensive for me each billing cycle, to use the commercial option as opposed to the domestic, which I'm currently on. I'm using over 50,000kW per year.

Does this sound correct? I use the same amount of power every hour 24/7 consistently.

I would just like to throw my tuppence worth in here as someone looking at electricity tariffs on a daily basis

1) is it 50,000 units a year you are billed for ??, you said 50,000 kW it should be 50,000 kWhr, sorry to nit pick, anyway if it is, the average domestic use is often quoted at 5,000 units a year, to me this seems a bit low, as a rural ribbon dweller, but in any event you can see how high your usage is in this context

2) are you operating a business from home? if not I don't see how you can look to apply for a commercial tariff, and in any event I don't see these tariffs offering a huge discount to domestic tariffs at the moment. This may change in the future, but that's how it looks to me at the moment, ie be sure the tariff you wish to change to will give you better value

3) have you a day/night meter installed - there is no charge for this from the ESB and with your usage, I would guess it should leave you paying less for the same electricity usage

4) you say you use the same power 24/7, if you are so sure of this and you get a night storage meter installed are there items you can leave to operating at nights ???

Without knowing much about how you mange to chew through 50,000 units a year this is as much as I can offer

EI: Una

Thanks for your input dowtcha.

And euser1984, just to echo Orla, we are still looking into this and will get back to you immediately once we have info.

EI: Una

Hi again euser1984,

If the customer is using the property as a residence, the domestic rate would be the most beneficial for them, and ESB Networks would not change DUOS group from Domestic to Commercial to be charged at business rates.

If the customer is operating a business from home, a request to change from the domestic tariff to commercial can be processed by the relevant electricity supplier to ESB Networks, but this would mean all usage in the house and office would be charged at a commercial rate going forward. A domestic dwelling can be up to 29 kva and there is no limit to the kwh/unit usage on a domestic rate.

We could analyse the usage to see which is most suitable, but strictly speaking, a business should be charged at a commercial rate, and a house should be charged at a domestic rate. There are cases such as farms, which are classified as domestic rural and not commercial, and the domestic rate is more economically beneficial for such customers.

It is best that each property be examined on a case-by-case basis.

Regards and thanks for your patience
Una